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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:47:33 PM EDT
interesting thing to speculate
how the P-80 and the Me-262 would have stacked up against each other 
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:49:31 PM EDT
[#1]
ME 262, that plane just looks sexy.
I have no idea how they would stack up against each other in combat. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:53:23 PM EDT
[#2]
The Me262 flown by the Experten might down one P-80 before it got hammered by the 6-7 other P-80s in the vicinity.
In the meantime the other allied planes in the vicinity would be slaughtering Hitler Youths in the He162s, and the Me163s would be off on the far edge of the furball running out of fuel and exploding for no goddamn reason. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:55:06 PM EDT
[#3]
6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:56:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Wasn't there a prototype ME262 with a 50mm gun? I forget it's use. If it was for busting tanks or taking down B17's.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:56:43 PM EDT
[#5]
The P-80 was better than the 226 by any objective measure, except firepower. It was also over 100mph faster and had far better turn and roll rates.
That being said, this is GD, so post a poll and the 226 will probably win. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:56:43 PM EDT
[#6]
P-80s were actually deployed to Europe during the war.
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/project-extraversion-p-80-shooting-stars-in-world-war-ii/ |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:04:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The P-80 was better than the 226 by any objective measure, except firepower. It was also over 100mph faster and had far better turn and roll rates. That being said, this is GD, so post a poll and the 226 will probably win. The 262 was also an early war design where as the P80 came out at the end and didn't even see combat. All in all, it's not really that great of a comparison. It would be like comparing a Hurricane to a late model ME109G, actually worse than that. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:04:39 PM EDT
[#8]
The P-80 would have ruled the skies. Faster, longer range, and higher ceiling (pretty cool they achieved that with a straight wing when the 262 was swept). They also would have had better trained pilots and been better built. But part of that is due to the fact that they were a later development. What exactly did America have in action in April of '44 when the 262 entered combat? That's the relevant comparison.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:05:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The P-80 would have ruled the skies. Faster, longer range, and higher ceiling. They also would have had better trained pilots and been better built. But part of that is due to the fact that they were a later development. What exactly did America have in action in April of '44 when the 262 entered combat? That's the relevant comparison. Stop saying what i'm saying. lol 
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:07:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop saying what i'm saying. lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The P-80 would have ruled the skies. Faster, longer range, and higher ceiling. They also would have had better trained pilots and been better built. But part of that is due to the fact that they were a later development. What exactly did America have in action in April of '44 when the 262 entered combat? That's the relevant comparison. Stop saying what i'm saying. lol 12 seconds! 
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:09:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What exactly did America have in action in April of '44 when the 262 entered combat? That's the relevant comparison. The four engined bombers and long range escorts that won the war. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:10:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ME 262, that plane just looks sexy. I have no idea how they would stack up against each other in combat. Agree |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:11:07 PM EDT
[#13]
My mom worked at Lockheed, during WWII, as a Rosie the Riveter, and had some cool p-38 and p-80 pics.
They were on my bedroom wall as a kid. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:13:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The P-80 would have ruled the skies. Faster, longer range, and higher ceiling (pretty cool they achieved that with a straight wing when the 262 was swept). They also would have had better trained pilots and been better built. But part of that is due to the fact that they were a later development. What exactly did America have in action in April of '44 when the 262 entered combat? That's the relevant comparison. The British had the Gloster meteor operational but I don't think they saw any combat during WWII. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor 
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:32:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:35:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. And a P-51 would be waiting to shoot him down on approach. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:38:54 PM EDT
[#17]
P-51s were downing Me-262s
Advantages of higher altitude, pilot aggression and confidence, numbers, unlimited fuel, etc. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:40:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. The 30mm had poor ballistics, though. Great for shooting down lumbering bombers; not so great for high-G deflection shooting. For dogfighting I'd rather have the .50s (or better yet, 20mm). |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:17:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 30mm had poor ballistics, though. Great for shooting down lumbering bombers; not so great for high-G deflection shooting. For dogfighting I'd rather have the .50s (or better yet, 20mm). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. The 30mm had poor ballistics, though. Great for shooting down lumbering bombers; not so great for high-G deflection shooting. For dogfighting I'd rather have the .50s (or better yet, 20mm). Yes, the Mk 108 cannon used by the 262 had a pretty short case length, so there wasn't much velocity there...but if hit by one of the 30mm projectiles, it would be devastating....the Mk 103 cannon had a much longer case...the 108 was 30x90RB (rebated rim), while the 103 ammo was 30x184B (belted case)...so the 103 case was twice as long as the 108, much more powder.... I have examples of both, pretty big difference when you see them next to each other... |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:19:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
P-51s were downing Me-262s Advantages of higher altitude, pilot aggression and confidence, numbers, unlimited fuel, etc. Mainly by waiting for the to land (or catching them taking off)...the Jumo engines kind of sucked, and the bird was a sitting duck at slow speeds...the Jumo's took a long time to spool up and you couldn't jerk the throttles... |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:21:22 PM EDT
[#21]
I would have flown the Me262 over anything else if we had the choice.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:22:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Blue Oyster Cult provides the answer you seek.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:23:48 PM EDT
[#23]
The 262s weren't meant to get into fights with fighters. They were meant to intercept and shoot down allied bombers.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:24:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would have flown the Me262 over anything else if we had the choice. They had a real problem with early engine metal fatigue. Wouldn't want that cropping up if the F80 was operational and something you might face. Their flight hours versus overhaul schedule was crazy. I think (may be wrong) it was like 24 hours or something like that. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:25:38 PM EDT
[#25]
The 262 had speed, altitude, and firepower. Oh, and damn good visibility.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:26:06 PM EDT
[#26]
My dad had hours in the T-33. Still have his jet helmet around here somewhere.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:30:11 PM EDT
[#27]
P80 in a dogfight. Me-262 in the looks department.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:31:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They had a real problem with early engine metal fatigue. Wouldn't want that cropping up if the F80 was operational and something you might face. Their flight hours versus overhaul schedule was crazy. I think (may be wrong) it was like 24 hours or something like that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would have flown the Me262 over anything else if we had the choice. They had a real problem with early engine metal fatigue. Wouldn't want that cropping up if the F80 was operational and something you might face. Their flight hours versus overhaul schedule was crazy. I think (may be wrong) it was like 24 hours or something like that. Wasn't that more due to Germany's limited resources and their inability to properly alloy the metals used in the engine. I thought the engine functioned fine when it wasn't being made with inferior metal? |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:34:07 PM EDT
[#29]
The Germans were having a hell of a time building anything at the end ... not to mention all the man hours and resources wasted on stupid - and crazy bullshit by Hitler .... considering that the 262 is impressive to say the least
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Posted: 5/14/2015 10:15:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. Depends on whether you are shooting bombers or fighters as to which held the advantage overall. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 12:43:44 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .50s had the advantage of cyclic rate and capacity. They put out a good stitch making hits more likely. Depends on whether you are shooting bombers or fighters as to which held the advantage overall. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. Depends on whether you are shooting bombers or fighters as to which held the advantage overall. Yeah, the Me-262's weapons were geared towards taking down bombers, the P-80's were geared towards chewing up fighters so in a head to head fight the P-80 would be more likely to hit the Me-262 whereas the Me-262 would have a harder time getting rounds on an evasive fighter, but if it did manage to hit a P-80 it would be Game Over. So you'd sort of have a situation like in Korea when it was Sabres against MiG-15s, the Sabre was much more likely to get multiple rounds on the MiG in a dogfight, but the MiG was more likely to cause catastrophic damage if it scored a hit. Honestly in an early jet era fighter on fighter dogfight I'd have to call the weapons each jet carried to be a wash. One could put a lot more rounds accurately on target that's defensive; while the other one has a hard time getting rounds on a maneuvering target, yet if it hits it's DRT for the target. So at that point you have to look at the other comparative strengths and weaknesses of the plan to guess which one would come out on top. So all things considered, if I had to bet on the outcome I'd put my money on the P-80. But yeah the Me-262 was a much sexier looking airplane, for sure. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 12:53:06 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Blue Oyster Cult provides the answer you seek. Arnold's on the phone from Long Beach, said Kelly's done quite a job....... The P-80 would have mopped the floor with the ME-262. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 12:57:44 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you'd sort of have a situation like in Korea when it was Sabres against MiG-15s, the Sabre was much more likely to get multiple rounds on the MiG in a dogfight, but the MiG was more likely to cause catastrophic damage if it scored a hit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. Depends on whether you are shooting bombers or fighters as to which held the advantage overall. So you'd sort of have a situation like in Korea when it was Sabres against MiG-15s, the Sabre was much more likely to get multiple rounds on the MiG in a dogfight, but the MiG was more likely to cause catastrophic damage if it scored a hit. In 1952, the first Chinese MiG-15 jet fighters appeared. On 8 August 1952, Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael, of 802 Squadron, flying Sea Fury WJ232 from HMS Ocean, shot a MiG-15 down, making him one of only a few pilots of a propeller driven aircraft to shoot down a jet.[44][N 2] The engagement occurred when a formation of Sea Furies and Fireflies was engaged by eight MiG-15s, during which one Firefly was badly damaged while the Sea Furies escaped unharmed. According to wiki, the sea fury had four 20mm cannons. 
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Posted: 5/15/2015 12:58:58 AM EDT
[#34]
P-80; it was blessed to be a child of Kelly Johnson
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Posted: 5/15/2015 12:59:45 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 5/15/2015 1:18:00 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .50s had the advantage of cyclic rate and capacity. They put out a good stitch making hits more likely. Depends on whether you are shooting bombers or fighters as to which held the advantage overall. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. Depends on whether you are shooting bombers or fighters as to which held the advantage overall. During World War II, a faster-firing Browning was developed for aircraft use. The AN/M3 features a mechanical or electrically boosted feed mechanism to increase the rate of fire to around 1,200 rounds per minute. The AN/M3 was used in Korea on the F-86 Sabre, F-84 Thunderjet and F-80 Shooting Star, and in Vietnam in the XM14/SUU-12/A gun pod. Today, it can be found on the Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano. 6 times 1200 rpm, you're talking modern gatling gun rate of fire. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 1:20:38 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to wiki, the sea fury had four 20mm cannons. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So you'd sort of have a situation like in Korea when it was Sabres against MiG-15s, the Sabre was much more likely to get multiple rounds on the MiG in a dogfight, but the MiG was more likely to cause catastrophic damage if it scored a hit. In 1952, the first Chinese MiG-15 jet fighters appeared. On 8 August 1952, Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael, of 802 Squadron, flying Sea Fury WJ232 from HMS Ocean, shot a MiG-15 down, making him one of only a few pilots of a propeller driven aircraft to shoot down a jet.[44][N 2] The engagement occurred when a formation of Sea Furies and Fireflies was engaged by eight MiG-15s, during which one Firefly was badly damaged while the Sea Furies escaped unharmed. According to wiki, the sea fury had four 20mm cannons. Cannon armed Corsairs got MiGs too, but that wouldn't be my go to fighter if I knew there was a squadron of MiG-15s up there waiting for me, I'd steal a Sabre. Or even better, one of these:  FJ-2 Fury.  |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 1:35:36 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wasn't there a prototype ME262 with a 50mm gun? I forget it's use. If it was for busting tanks or taking down B17's. Engine lifespan for the jet engines on the Me 262's was just 12 hours. Really. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 1:48:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Comparing the Me262 to a P-80 is a tad silly. One was a very early attempt at a jet fighter (first one to see combat I'm fairly sure). The P-80 took advantage of several years of technological maturity and learning from the shortfalls of others. Jet technology advanced very rapidly that first decade of actual use.
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Posted: 5/15/2015 1:53:36 AM EDT
[#40]
Screw it, I'll take a komet and no one will catch me, for a minute.
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:14:34 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Screw it, I'll take a komet and no one will catch me, till i explode. FIFY |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:18:48 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FIFY Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Screw it, I'll take a komet and no one will catch me, till i explode. FIFY ...or melt if T-Stoff squirted on you. Personally I'd go with explode. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:26:01 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The four engined bombers and long range escorts that won the war. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What exactly did America have in action in April of '44 when the 262 entered combat? That's the relevant comparison. The four engined bombers and long range escorts that won the war. No they didn't. They killed 20K US Airmen but they did little to affect the progress of the war. Night bombing would have been just as effective, and killed far fewer Airmen. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:33:58 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No they didn't. They killed 20K US Airmen but they did little to affect the progress of the war. Night bombing would have been just as effective, and killed far fewer Airmen. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What exactly did America have in action in April of '44 when the 262 entered combat? That's the relevant comparison. The four engined bombers and long range escorts that won the war. No they didn't. They killed 20K US Airmen but they did little to affect the progress of the war. Night bombing would have been just as effective, and killed far fewer Airmen. I'm no historian, but I seem to remember reading that the strategic bombing campaign's biggest help (before the Transportation Plan anyway) was to divert something like half of German high-velocity guns (like the famous 8,8cm) and 2/3-3/4 of its tactical air production to defending against them, plus bleeding off experienced pilots and denying training airspace to the Luftwaffe. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:35:29 AM EDT
[#45]
The one thing our daylight bomber campaign did without much dissent was to kill off the Luftwaffe. Big Week was murder. For everyone.
Attrition is a bitch. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:36:59 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. The MK108 Motorcannon had a trajectory like a slowpitch softball. It was not exceptionally useful in dogfights. It was meant to kill bombers. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:38:34 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The MK108 Motorcannon had a trajectory like a slowpitch softball. It was not exceptionally useful in dogfights. It was meant to kill bombers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. The MK108 Motorcannon had a trajectory like a slowpitch softball. It was not exceptionally useful in dogfights. It was meant to kill bombers. Point blank firing and it wont matter. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:45:25 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 30mm had poor ballistics, though. Great for shooting down lumbering bombers; not so great for high-G deflection shooting. For dogfighting I'd rather have the .50s (or better yet, 20mm). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
6 .50" BMG M3s are going to take a heavy toll on the Me262, methinks. Two P-80As made it to Italy before VE Day, if I remember my studies exactly. All the flyable Me262s were in Germany or captured by that point, I think. 4x30mm > 6x .50 A single 30mm MINE round would obliterate any fighter out of the sky. The 30mm had poor ballistics, though. Great for shooting down lumbering bombers; not so great for high-G deflection shooting. For dogfighting I'd rather have the .50s (or better yet, 20mm). Me-262's had energy. Dive in, hit hard, climb. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:46:49 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They had a real problem with early engine metal fatigue. Wouldn't want that cropping up if the F80 was operational and something you might face. Their flight hours versus overhaul schedule was crazy. I think (may be wrong) it was like 24 hours or something like that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would have flown the Me262 over anything else if we had the choice. They had a real problem with early engine metal fatigue. Wouldn't want that cropping up if the F80 was operational and something you might face. Their flight hours versus overhaul schedule was crazy. I think (may be wrong) it was like 24 hours or something like that. If they were lucky! Early mean time between failure was around 3 hours. It did get better, but the Jumo's were heavy, clunky technology. The German metal industry had been stripped of the specialized raw materials needed to make an effective engine. The Germans could engineer the hell out of it (if given the time and resources) but building multiple generations within a short period of time could not be done given the demands of other war needs. |
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:47:46 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
P-51s were downing Me-262s Advantages of higher altitude, pilot aggression and confidence, numbers, unlimited fuel, etc. Me-262's were made out of substandard parts due to logistics. most of the Luftwaffe's best pilots were dead. A well made me-262 vs a well made p-51, no advantage. Me-262 wins. |
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