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Posted: 10/27/2020 8:03:24 AM EDT
[#1]
There's two main systems.
Flying boom and probe. The probe system is all on the pilot of the refueling plane to get their probe into the drogue, or basket, and keeping it there until they've got the gas they want. With the boom, the receiving plane flies formation with the tanker and the boom operator "flies" the boom down into the receiver's receptacle. There are position lights on the belly of the tanker that show the receiver where they need to be. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 8:10:30 AM EDT
[#2]
I’m not a boom operator, but I stayed at Holiday Inn Express...
Two types: Probe and drogue - flexible hose (think fire hose) with a basket on the end from the tanker. The receiver (aircraft getting gas) has a ‘probe’ (looks like a big dildo) attached to their aircraft. The receiver maneuvers their aircraft to plug their probe into the drogue basket to get gas. The tanker just keeps his plane steady and the receiver does all the work. Boom and receptacle - tanker has a long boom that can be moved in three axis. The receiver flys into position behind the tanker using position lights on the belly of the tanker and/or verbal direction of the boom operator. The boomer will move the boom to plug it into a fixed receptacle on the receiver. The boom can move the receiver some with a smaller aircraft, but it’s up to the receiver pilot to stay in position behind the tanker. Vastly simplified versions... I’ve been on the receiving end of both kinds. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 8:17:51 AM EDT
[#3]
FPNI.
The flying boom method offers higher fuel transfer rates, which is why it was adopted for USAF bombers in the 1950s. It was subsequently incorporated into smaller USAF aircraft they were developed. This method is also safer because the tanker has positive control over the boom. The probe and drogue method is popular because it’s easier to outfit virtually any aircraft as a tanker and to add the probe to existing receiver aircraft. The flexible hose can be a hazard to receiving aircraft if the drogue is damaged or turbulence is encountered. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 8:23:53 AM EDT
[#4]
Because "A Picture is worth a Thousand Words"...
We have TWO different Systems. NAVY, MARINES, COAST GUARD, ARMY HELICOPTERS, AIR FORCE HELICOPTERS & the REST OF NATO - use the Probe & Drogue system. a Basket (Drogue) looking like a Badminton shuttlecock at the end of hose. Planes - Helicopters have a probe that extends outward that they fly into the basket.   AIRFORCE uses the "Flying Boom" where the plane has special receiving connection (usually covered by opening & closing doors) that mates to a Boom - large diameter pipe with elevons upon it that allow the boom operator at the back of the tanker to "fly" the boom into the receiving hole of the plane to lock up and transfer fuel. Used by Big Air Force as their preferred system because it can quickly transfer larger quantities of fuel than the Drogue system for thirsty Bombers, Transports or other large aircraft.   Some Tankers can support BOTH types (KC-10). Most Tankers are Either / Or SLATE - How Does Aerial Refueling Work? |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 8:26:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Interesting aside: When I was young and pretty I poked the probe of an F-4 through the ribs of a C-130's drogue. When I tried to back out, the probe stayed stuck, and the whole hose ripped off the C-130. I flew to Iwakuni, Japan, with it beating the crap out of the wing and fuselage the whole way. I still remember the plane captain's face as I dragged it down the flight line.
Your tax dollars at work. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 8:40:51 AM EDT
[#6]
What other countries but the US use the boom? Any?
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:06:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not a boom operator, but I stayed at Holiday Inn Express... Two types: Probe and drogue - flexible hose (think fire hose) with a basket on the end from the tanker. The receiver (aircraft getting gas) has a 'probe' (looks like a big dildo) attached to their aircraft. The receiver maneuvers their aircraft to plug their probe into the drogue basket to get gas. The tanker just keeps his plane steady and the receiver does all the work. Boom and receptacle - tanker has a long boom that can be moved in three axis. The receiver flys into position behind the tanker using position lights on the belly of the tanker and/or verbal direction of the boom operator. The boomer will move the boom to plug it into a fixed receptacle on the receiver. The boom can move the receiver some with a smaller aircraft, but it's up to the receiver pilot to stay in position behind the tanker. Vastly simplified versions... I've been on the receiving end of both kinds. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:14:18 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting aside: When I was young and pretty I poked the probe of an F-4 through the ribs of a C-130's drogue. When I tried to back out, the probe stayed stuck, and the whole hose ripped off the C-130. I flew to Iwakuni, Japan, with it beating the crap out of the wing and fuselage the whole way. I still remember the plane captain's face as I dragged it down the flight line. Your tax dollars at work. Did you get to keep your trophy? 
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:23:55 AM EDT
[#9]
A show on Nat Geo (I think) discussed this and had a story of a KC130 doing a mid-air refueling over the Atlantic for a group of F4s being shipped to Europe.
One of the F4s began to visibly leak fuel. The KC130 hooked up and continuously pumped to the F4 as it was losing fuel, while also "towing" the fighter all the way to an air base in England. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:24:28 AM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:26:18 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting aside: When I was young and pretty I poked the probe of an F-4 through the ribs of a C-130's drogue. When I tried to back out, the probe stayed stuck, and the whole hose ripped off the C-130. I flew to Iwakuni, Japan, with it beating the crap out of the wing and fuselage the whole way. I still remember the plane captain's face as I dragged it down the flight line. Your tax dollars at work. I ripped a probe off over Baghdad once. There are those who have and those that will. Basket slaps in Hornets are especially nasty as they tend to hit your AOA probes. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:27:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What other countries but the US use the boom? Any? Everybody that owns an F-16 can only use a boom. While not everyone owns their own tankers they will work with the US to train their pilots. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:28:43 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I ripped a probe off over Baghdad once. There are those who have and those that will. Basket slaps in Hornets are especially nasty as they tend to hit your AOA probes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Interesting aside: When I was young and pretty I poked the probe of an F-4 through the ribs of a C-130's drogue. When I tried to back out, the probe stayed stuck, and the whole hose ripped off the C-130. I flew to Iwakuni, Japan, with it beating the crap out of the wing and fuselage the whole way. I still remember the plane captain's face as I dragged it down the flight line. Your tax dollars at work. I ripped a probe off over Baghdad once. There are those who have and those that will. Basket slaps in Hornets are especially nasty as they tend to hit your AOA probes. The French lost to Rafale probes when I was in CENTCOM one time. They came to pick up the first one but never picked up the second one. It was appropriately discarded.
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:29:49 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A show on Nat Geo (I think) discussed this and had a story of a KC130 doing a mid-air refueling over the Atlantic for a group of F4s being shipped to Europe. One of the F4s began to visibly leak fuel. The KC130 hooked up and continuously pumped to the F4 as it was losing fuel, while also "towing" the fighter all the way to an air base in England. That was a KC-135. The probe systems can't "tow" a receiver as the basket is held in by pressure alone, the nozzle in the flying boom system is held in place with locking paws in the slipway. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:30:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The French lost to Rafale probes when I was in CENTCOM one time. They came to pick up the first one but never picked up the second one. It was appropriately discarded. If I ever ripped a basket off then my plan was to keep it and make a coffee table out of it. I’m not sure I would be allowed to do that but I would have tried. It’s easy to tell the AF that it fell off in the ocean
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:41:45 AM EDT
[#16]
Yes, the basket and probe is Navy, the pilot guides his probe into the hole.
In the Air Force, the pilot has the hole and he gets a probe inserted into it.
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:42:10 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because "A Picture is worth a Thousand Words"... We have TWO different Systems. NAVY, MARINES, COAST GUARD, ARMY HELICOPTERS, AIR FORCE HELICOPTERS & the REST OF NATO - use the Probe & Drogue system. a Basket (Drogue) looking like a Badminton shuttlecock at the end of hose. Planes - Helicopters have a probe that extends outward that they fly into the basket. https://i.stack.imgur.com/yWY9e.jpg https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carol_Martinez10/publication/257343904/figure/fig1/AS:538748366868480@1505459028113/Probe-drogue-refuelling-courtesy-of-Cobham-Mission-Equipment.png AIRFORCE uses the "Flying Boom" where the plane has special receiving connection (usually covered by opening & closing doors) that mates to a Boom - large diameter pipe with elevons upon it that allow the boom operator at the back of the tanker to "fly" the boom into the receiving hole of the plane to lock up and transfer fuel. Used by Big Air Force as their preferred system because it can quickly transfer larger quantities of fuel than the Drogue system for thirsty Bombers, Transports or other large aircraft. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT0O7BhHJmMbOmlon5JGIcvS5GQdb1rjEDB1g&usqp=CAU https://static.politico.com/73/ce/e148fd024e0f8874ee909ae8263f/170501-air-force-one-df-st-89-02053.jpg https://cdn.dvidshub.net/media/thumbs/photos/1804/4300957/2000x1335_q95.jpg Some Tankers can support BOTH types (KC-10). Most Tankers are Either / Or SLATE - How Does Aerial Refueling Work? The world isn't quite so cut and dry as your sentence with the all caps words makes it seem. The US Navy has about one-hundred P-8s and a handful of E-6Bs that are flying boom refueled. Internationally, the RAF Airseeker (RC-135), most E-3s, and every country that has F-15s or F-16s use flying boom refueling. And yes, some tankers can do both (KC-10, KC-46, MRTT if they have the boom option, some KC-707s, I think the Iranian KC-33, and KC-135s with the MPRS mod). |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:43:50 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I ever ripped a basket off then my plan was to keep it and make a coffee table out of it. I’m not sure I would be allowed to do that but I would have tried. It’s easy to tell the AF that it fell off in the ocean Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The French lost to Rafale probes when I was in CENTCOM one time. They came to pick up the first one but never picked up the second one. It was appropriately discarded. If I ever ripped a basket off then my plan was to keep it and make a coffee table out of it. I’m not sure I would be allowed to do that but I would have tried. It’s easy to tell the AF that it fell off in the ocean I'd have loved to go to the boat to pick it up, but I'm sure they'd just write it off.
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:44:58 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, the basket and probe is Navy, the pilot guides his probe into the hole. In the Air Force, the pilot has the hole and he gets a probe inserted into it.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:47:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting aside: When I was young and pretty I poked the probe of an F-4 through the ribs of a C-130's drogue. When I tried to back out, the probe stayed stuck, and the whole hose ripped off the C-130. I flew to Iwakuni, Japan, with it beating the crap out of the wing and fuselage the whole way. I still remember the plane captain's face as I dragged it down the flight line. Your tax dollars at work. And they mounted it above the bar in the O Club?  Glad you had a safe recovery! TC |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:48:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Isn't there like an adapter that can go on the end of a boom to refuel drogue aircraft? Thereby making the Air Force system superior in every way?
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Posted: 10/27/2020 9:50:59 AM EDT
[#22]
All very informative replies.
But did anyone actually read the question in the OP about the receptacle being behind the pilot or in front of the pilot? |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 10:00:15 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All very informative replies. But did anyone actually read the question in the OP about the receptacle being behind the pilot or in front of the pilot? The boom operator controls the boom. The receptacle goes where it goes. Air Force 1 and the A10 have it in front of the cockpit, most have it behind. Kharn |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 10:15:23 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn't there like an adapter that can go on the end of a boom to refuel drogue aircraft? Thereby making the Air Force system superior in every way? On the KC-135 we remove the nozzle and replace it with a boom drogue adaptor. It's about a two to four hour job on the ground (depending on the crew) to swap them out.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 10:22:12 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The boom operator controls the boom. The receptacle goes where it goes. Air Force 1 and the A10 have it in front of the cockpit, most have it behind. Kharn Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All very informative replies. But did anyone actually read the question in the OP about the receptacle being behind the pilot or in front of the pilot? The boom operator controls the boom. The receptacle goes where it goes. Air Force 1 and the A10 have it in front of the cockpit, most have it behind. Kharn They are kind of all over. The F-15 has it on the left side of the fuselage so they have to line up off center. As you mentioned a handful of jets have it on the nose, a bit of a problem if there's not a good seal. Some jets, like the B-2 for example, have the slipway rather far back on the spine. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 10:23:53 AM EDT
[#26]
The boom latches to the receptacle with hydraulic toggles.
There are pilot director lights on the belly of the tanker to direct the receiver in the envelope. In the event a disconnect is needed- usually when the receiver approached the edge of the envelope, disconnect is generally initiated by the receiver aircraft. There is a pneumatic operated independent system installed on the superior tanker (KC-10) |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 10:24:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On the KC-135 we remove the nozzle and replace it with a boom drogue adaptor. It's about a two to four hour job on the ground (depending on the crew) to swap them out. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/66085/unnamed_jpg-1656165.JPG Ah, good ole Iron Maiden. Easy to get in, bitch to stay in |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 10:26:18 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I ripped a probe off over Baghdad once. There are those who have and those that will. Basket slaps in Hornets are especially nasty as they tend to hit your AOA probes. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 10:26:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah, good ole Iron Maiden. Easy to get in, bitch to stay in Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: On the KC-135 we remove the nozzle and replace it with a boom drogue adaptor. It's about a two to four hour job on the ground (depending on the crew) to swap them out. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/66085/unnamed_jpg-1656165.JPG Ah, good ole Iron Maiden. Easy to get in, bitch to stay in I spent last week working with an old F-14 driver who said he preferred it to the KC-135 with the wingtip pods. Neither were as nice as a KC-10's centerline though. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 10:29:03 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I spent last week working with an old F-14 driver who said he preferred it to the KC-135 with the wingtip pods. Neither were as nice as a KC-10's centerline though. I’d agree. Wingtip pods suck. Nightmare to get in if there is any rough air. Plus anytime the tanker turns you are at the end of that turn and it’s tough. My favorite tankers have been Brits and Germans. So smooth. KC10 is our universal favorite though. As a matter of fact, whenever we get the ATO most of us check type of tanker even before the mission
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:00:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @TarzanT As a receiver, which do you prefer and why? Apples and bananas. Boom refueling was basic dissimilar formation. This was in B-52’s (not the most responsive aircraft in the world) and you could ‘push’ the tanker around if not careful. Disconnects were easier, reduce thrust and trim nose down. Breakaways were the same just more aggressive and the tanker could climb away from you. Probe and drogue was more difficult - especially with a ‘dancing’ drogue. This was compounded by being in a helicopter and refueling at night with NVG’s. The tip of the probe was also not located at the same rotational point of the aircraft. Rotating around the center of the rotors is easy. Rotating around the nose or tail is learned. Controlling the tip of the probe is more difficult since it’s located between the cockpit and rotor tip. Disconnects required you to slide back while maintaining vertical position high on the hose until the drogue disconnected and out from under the rotor. The tanker couldn’t climb in a breakaway until the receiver was well clear and off the wing. They couldn’t descend either since we normally refueled well under 500‘. Just my opinion though. Some guys hated being on the boom and loved chasing the basket. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:02:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd have loved to go to the boat to pick it up, but I'm sure they'd just write it off. Call sign ‘Drogue Slayer’ for the next few flights? |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:14:01 AM EDT
[#33]
Pucker Factor of ... ?
 E-8 AWACS Air Refueling gone wrong |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:18:05 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOh myyy...  What caused that? Someone screw up or turbulence? Something else? -K |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:34:05 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryAt first I was like. "Okay... Little fiddly." Then. "Oh crap." Then. "Oh Jesus H Christ we all gonna die!!!" |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:34:46 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh myyy... What caused that? Someone screw up or turbulence? Something else? -K I can't see the video at the moment, but I'm just guessing it's the AWACS that almost hits the tanker. If that's the one then it was a NATO training bird and a pilot induced oscillation. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:35:39 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryI've seen this multiple times and it still gives me anxiety watching it.
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:38:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What other countries but the US use the boom? Any? A lot do. The A330 MRRT has both systems IIRC |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:45:24 AM EDT
[#39]
I heard, female boom operators like to flash their tits at refueling fighters.
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:45:34 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot do. The A330 MRRT has both systems IIRC Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What other countries but the US use the boom? Any? A lot do. The A330 MRRT has both systems IIRC I believe the boom is an option with them as the RAF didn't originally have them when they got their Airseekers and it was a bit of a row. But off the top of my head: Israel, Iran, Turkey, France, UK, Japan, Singapore, Australia, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Italy. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:46:20 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I heard, female boom operators like to flash their tits at refueling fighters. At least if you're flying something really cool like an F117.
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Posted: 10/27/2020 11:46:30 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I heard, female boom operators like to flash their tits at refueling fighters. Would be a lot easier on a Gucci. The boom pod in a 135 would be challenging. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 1:09:08 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't see the video at the moment, but I'm just guessing it's the AWACS that almost hits the tanker. If that's the one then it was a NATO training bird and a pilot induced oscillation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oh myyy... What caused that? Someone screw up or turbulence? Something else? -K I can't see the video at the moment, but I'm just guessing it's the AWACS that almost hits the tanker. If that's the one then it was a NATO training bird and a pilot induced oscillation. Yup, that's the one. Was it really as close as it appears in the video? Was that much of an oscillation a major 'screw up'? Or is that a relatively easy thing to do and maybe just caused by inexperience? -K |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 1:22:55 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup, that's the one. Was it really as close as it appears in the video? Was that much of an oscillation a major 'screw up'? Or is that a relatively easy thing to do and maybe just caused by inexperience? -K Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh myyy... What caused that? Someone screw up or turbulence? Something else? -K I can't see the video at the moment, but I'm just guessing it's the AWACS that almost hits the tanker. If that's the one then it was a NATO training bird and a pilot induced oscillation. Yup, that's the one. Was it really as close as it appears in the video? Was that much of an oscillation a major 'screw up'? Or is that a relatively easy thing to do and maybe just caused by inexperience? -K Yes. Yes, as I understand there were a few injuries on the AWACS from having the bottom drop out on them. Probably inexperience. |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 1:24:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryHoly shot that was intense. Fuck that |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 1:31:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting aside: When I was young and pretty I poked the probe of an F-4 through the ribs of a C-130's drogue. When I tried to back out, the probe stayed stuck, and the whole hose ripped off the C-130. I flew to Iwakuni, Japan, with it beating the crap out of the wing and fuselage the whole way. I still remember the plane captain's face as I dragged it down the flight line. Your tax dollars at work. What was your new call sign 
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Posted: 10/27/2020 1:43:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. Yes, as I understand there were a few injuries on the AWACS from having the bottom drop out on them. Probably inexperience. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh myyy... What caused that? Someone screw up or turbulence? Something else? -K I can't see the video at the moment, but I'm just guessing it's the AWACS that almost hits the tanker. If that's the one then it was a NATO training bird and a pilot induced oscillation. Yup, that's the one. Was it really as close as it appears in the video? Was that much of an oscillation a major 'screw up'? Or is that a relatively easy thing to do and maybe just caused by inexperience? -K Yes. Yes, as I understand there were a few injuries on the AWACS from having the bottom drop out on them. Probably inexperience. Wow. Yeah, I can see how that would have been an issue! Thank you for the replies! -K |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 1:48:32 PM EDT
[#48]
As often as US Forces Mid Air Refuel and make it look "easy" & "routine", it is still very sobering to realize just HOW dangerous it is to have two aircraft flying so close to each other with highly flammable jet fuel 'bridging' the small gap.
The Palomares Spain B-52 "Nuclear Incident" in 1966 comes to mind... a Fully Combat loaded B-52 on Airborne Nuclear Alert collided over Spain with it's KC-135 tanker while mid air refueling. It resulted in destruction of both aircraft and a "Broken Arrow" with 4 live B-28 Hydrogen bombs going down with the B-52. Three of the bombs fell over the Spainish countryside and were recovered, but two of the bombs had their explosives go off which scattered highly radioactive Plutonium over the countryside. One bomb's parachute had opened on the descent, and that bomb drifted into the ocean, and was finally recovered after an extensive & expensive deep sea search & retrieval. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 2:13:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Aviation threads need pictures.
Here's a picture of yours truly circa 2003 behind a KC-10. The picture was taken by one of our squadron's pilots from the boom operator's station.  |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 2:36:18 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The boom latches to the receptacle with hydraulic toggles. There are pilot director lights on the belly of the tanker to direct the receiver in the envelope. In the event a disconnect is needed- usually when the receiver approached the edge of the envelope, disconnect is generally initiated by the receiver aircraft. There is a pneumatic operated independent system installed on the superior tanker (KC-10) The receiver aircraft has the toggles that latch onto nozzle. If the receiver goes outside parameters the tanker automaticaly initiates disconnect. Boomer can uses director lights to guide pilot into position but once connected it will be automatic . |
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