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Link Posted: 7/23/2019 8:22:14 PM EDT
[#1]
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World War II no the UK nor the USSR would have one with out our help.
World War I UK and France might have won eventually without our help.
That is very debatable.
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Man it’s a hard call on WWI. The Argonne offensive was arguably an American effort.  They were entrenched and then the Americans sent over some hobos from NY (Liberty or Lost Batallion) and the Argonne was insane.
Link Posted: 7/23/2019 8:26:51 PM EDT
[#2]
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Man it's a hard call on WWI. The Argonne offensive was arguably an American effort.  They were entrenched and then the Americans sent over some hobos from NY (Liberty or Lost Batallion) and the Argonne was insane.
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WWI would not have continued past 1916 had the US not been selling all manner of shit to Britain and France, and providing loans to buy even more shit..  THAT's where the US contribution to the war really happened
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 12:35:44 AM EDT
[#3]
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This, funky's full of shit.

Without American guns, ammo, food, fuel, tanks, trucks, aircraft, ships, and other machines, Germany would have steamrolled over Russia, redirected their forces away from the Eastern front, and conquered more than half of europe.

War is about LOGISTICS, not just fighting capability.
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This is the part I think a lot of people get wrong.  Without a war in the West, assuming the British took the peace deal in 1940 or 1941, the Germans would have now been able to direct their entire machine against the Soviets.

No matter what, I don't see the Germans steam rolling the Soviets in 1941.

Best case scenario for the Germans is a victory by the end of 1942, but realistically more like 1943 or 1944.

However, I do think the German victory is inevitable in the East.

Lend-Lease worked in large part because the Royal Navy protected the Murmansk convoys going into northern Russia.  There was the famous case of the convoy PQ17, that lost it's naval escort and the Germans sank something like 70% of the ships in the convoy.

With a neutral Britain, there would obviously be no Royal Navy protection for the artic convoys.  It is also questionable if the US would still have extended the Lend-Lease program to the Soviets with Britain out of the war.

Furthermore, a "neutral" Britain, or Britain that takes the German peace deal, is a British government with no more Churchill.  Remember at this time, the British have access to the Anglo-Persian Oil company and the massive oil fields in Iran and Iraq.

There is little doubt that the British oil would have been sold to the Germans had Britain taken a German peace deal.  Everyone likes making money and the Germans would have an insatiable appetite for all the oil the British could sell them.

Which solves the German's biggest problem of the war.  Lack of gasoline.  From the lowest private, to Adolph Galland, to the generals this was something everyone in the German military thought was their biggest problem.

Depending on which sources you read and how you interpret them, something like 75-80% of all the 20,000 Flak 88mm guns were used in the West.  They killed something like 20% of all Soviet tanks on the Eastern Front.  Moving all those guns to the East is a massive amount of Soviet armor that would be destroyed.

In 1941 and 1942 the Germans are doing well in the East because they have this thing called air cover.  The war really started turning against them when the majority of the Luftwaffe got shipped off to the West to stop the Allied bombing offensive in 1943.  Again something like 75-80% of the Luftwaffe's losses were in the West.  
Moving those aircraft to the East massively alter the strategic balance of power in the Germans favour.

Additionally there is the 1 million men who were used in the West to combat the Allied bombing offensive.  1 million more soldiers in the East also tips the scales further in the Germans favour.  Peace in the West also means the soldiers garrisoning the Western European nations could be moved to the East.

Peace with Britain means the Germans can take the industrial resources they were consuming to build U-boats into building more tanks and aircraft to fight the war in the East.  Again another massive shift in the balance of power in favour of the Germans.

With all that out of the way lets get back to how long it takes the Germans to win in the East.  Most likely by the end 1943 into 1944.  IMHO the Germans would have suffered millions of casualties achieving this.

Which is why I find the notion of Germany conquering the Soviet Union, then taking over Britain and the rest of Europe as laughable.

Winning in the East would take the Germans at least a generation to recover from, more like 2 generations.  Remember the goal was to create this Greater Germany or Lebensraum in the East.  You could argue the German economy has yet to recover from absorbing East Germany.  Most of the Soviet Union was still barely past the Feudal stage of development.  Victory in the Soviet Union for the Germans, takes them out of the "fucking with other Europeans" game till at least the 1960s-1970s.  Granted, at this point they would be in a massively dominant position.

IMHO the British peace deal would end up pushing the US and UK into a potential conflict for control of the seas in the late 1940-1950s.  There could plausibly have been an alliance between the British and Germany against the US and Japan.  It could have gone a couple of different ways.  The huge wild card in this situation is who would develop and field such weapons like: Jet Fighters, ICBMs, Nukes, etc first?

It's a very fascinating thing to speculate, with few clear answers.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 5:55:46 AM EDT
[#4]
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WWI would not have continued past 1916 had the US not been selling all manner of shit to Britain and France, and providing loans to buy even more shit..  THAT's where the US contribution to the war really happened
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The French and British were both a spent force by 1917, in any case.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:07:27 AM EDT
[#5]
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Makes me wonder if we could do it again. We cranked out so much stuff so fast, I just don’t know if we have it in us now.
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We deindustralized ourselves.  Even if we wanted to make WW II tanks in the quantity we did, where's our steel mills to provide steel for tanks, AFVs, trucks, artillery, ammunition, ships?
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:12:52 AM EDT
[#6]
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No.
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Whoa, I thought you were long gone!
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:21:24 AM EDT
[#7]
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We deindustralized ourselves.  Even if we wanted to make WW II tanks in the quantity we did, where's our steel mills to provide steel for tanks, AFVs, trucks, artillery, ammunition, ships?
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In 2017, we imported about 35 million metric tons of steel, and produced 81 million metric tons. The Japanese and EU produced about another 250 million mts.

We wouldn't need 60000 Shermans or 30000 Liberators. What we would need is technical innovation to control space and cyberspace, come up with adaptive and effective unmanned vehicles, have outstanding AI and be able to feed ourselves.

The Chinese can do some of these things, but they can't do them all.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:21:24 AM EDT
[#8]
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Both UK and USSR would have lost hard without US supplies.
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I understand that argument, and it can be a persuasive one, but I disagree.

It would have taken a UK/USSR alliance longer without US participation, but even if there was no US involvement, Germany would not have achieved its war aims.

I offer this as an opinion: for Germany to "win" it had to fully achieve its war aims in the East. Anything short of that would constitute a loss. (Again, IMO). With that in mind, I think it is evident that German war aims were unattainable by December 1941.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:24:03 AM EDT
[#9]
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I understand that argument, and it can be a persuasive one, but I disagree.

It would have taken a UK/USSR alliance longer without US participation, but even if there was no US involvement, Germany would not have achieved its war aims.

I offer this as an opinion: for Germany to "win" it had to fully achieve its war aims in the East. Anything short of that would constitute a loss. (Again, IMO). With that in mind, I think it is evident that German war aims were unattainable by December 1941.
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I'd argue that the German war aims would have been far more achievable had the Germans be able to harness the Belorussians and Ukranians, especially in the absence of lend-lease.

Without Lend-Lease, the Red Army is a horse drawn cart logistics army, period. I haven't done the math of culmination on that alone, but the Germans were the same, and were culminating logistically in France and Italy, let alone the scale of the war in the East.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:37:28 AM EDT
[#10]
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I'd argue that the German war aims would have been far more achievable had the Germans be able to harness the Belorussians and Ukranians, especially in the absence of lend-lease.

Without Lend-Lease, the Red Army is a horse drawn cart logistics army, period. I haven't done the math of culmination on that alone, but the Germans were the same, and were culminating logistically in France and Italy, let alone the scale of the war in the East.
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Agree. The catastrophic error of not embracing Ukranian good will toward the Germans as liberators from Bolshevism in 1941 cannot be overstated.  Especially when you realize that in a few short years, there were Slavs serving in ad hoc german formations due to manpower concerns. They had the potential to get millions of anti Stalin troops who would have fought a near holy war against the Red Army with minimal equipment. They could have been used for garrision duty, anti partisan operations (BTW, partisans would have been much less problematic) and provided security behind the lines.

True. But during the War of the Sixth Coalition, Napoleon and Tzar Alexander I were both leading a horse cart logistics Armies. It took more time to cover the distance, but I seem to recall Russian troops entering Paris in 1815.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:46:10 AM EDT
[#11]
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Agree. The catastrophic error of not embracing Ukranian good will toward the Germans as liberators from Bolshevism in 1941 cannot be overstated.  Especially when you realize that in a few short years, there were Slavs serving in ad hoc german formations due to manpower concerns. They had the potential to get millions of anti Stalin troops who would have fought a near holy war against the Red Army with minimal equipment. They could have been used for garrision duty, anti partisan operations (BTW, partisans would have been much less problematic) and provided security behind the lines.

True. But during the War of the Sixth Coalition, Napoleon and Tzar Alexander I were both leading a horse cart logistics Armies. It took more time to cover the distance, but I seem to recall Russian troops entering Paris in 1815.
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Quoted:

I'd argue that the German war aims would have been far more achievable had the Germans be able to harness the Belorussians and Ukranians, especially in the absence of lend-lease.

Without Lend-Lease, the Red Army is a horse drawn cart logistics army, period. I haven't done the math of culmination on that alone, but the Germans were the same, and were culminating logistically in France and Italy, let alone the scale of the war in the East.
Agree. The catastrophic error of not embracing Ukranian good will toward the Germans as liberators from Bolshevism in 1941 cannot be overstated.  Especially when you realize that in a few short years, there were Slavs serving in ad hoc german formations due to manpower concerns. They had the potential to get millions of anti Stalin troops who would have fought a near holy war against the Red Army with minimal equipment. They could have been used for garrision duty, anti partisan operations (BTW, partisans would have been much less problematic) and provided security behind the lines.

True. But during the War of the Sixth Coalition, Napoleon and Tzar Alexander I were both leading a horse cart logistics Armies. It took more time to cover the distance, but I seem to recall Russian troops entering Paris in 1815.
The logistics requirements of armies are growing near expononentally as time goes on, with vehicles being a prime consumer. Could a infantry heavy, horse drawn army operate at that scale over the time required? Probably. I just see how it could do it effectively at force ratios of 4:1 against a far more mobile, firepower laden foe with supporting arms like air.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 7:02:52 AM EDT
[#12]
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The logistics requirements of armies are growing near expononentally as time goes on, with vehicles being a prime consumer. Could a infantry heavy, horse drawn army operate at that scale over the time required? Probably. I just see how it could do it effectively at force ratios of 4:1 against a far more mobile, firepower laden foe with supporting arms like air.
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Compare Soviet manufacturing capacity of the 1950's and 60's to the 1940's. I'm talking output of manufactured goods. Huge increases by the 50's even.

Why?  Because of the "buildup" to fight during WWII. Sure, they packed up and absconded with whole factories in conquered territories after the war, but that doesn't account for all of it.

Don't think in terms of the 41-45 timeline. Eventually, the Soviets would have stood up their own factories to satisfy their logistical needs.  This may have taken 5 years, or 7 maybe.  But it would have happened.

Now they may not have put out lend-lease scale of equipment, but they didn't need to.  Because the key comparison isn't Soviet organic manufacturing capability versus lend-lease.  The key comparison is Soviet manufacturing capability versus German capability. Of course the German stuff would be better. But the Soviets would still be able to bring the quantitative advantage. ETA "Quantity is a quality all its own" doesn't work against a country like America, because America could do both quality and quantity.  It does, however, work against an economy like WWII Germany's.  Because the Germans couldn't keep up in the quantity game.

Eventually, the Soviets would have been able to outproduce the Germans (which they did anyway in key sectors during the war, even when German manufacturing was hitting its heights ~1944.)  With the British still in the war, the strategic bombing variable in the west is still present.

Throw the manufacturing capability of the British Empire ontop of that, just to satisfy British needs, (IIRC, the 3rd largest economy in the world at the time) and you still have the UK/USSR winning the battle of industrial output.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 9:49:58 AM EDT
[#13]
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Mark Clark was an certainly an incompetent, but keep in mind the Italian campaign was Churchill's idea.
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Yeah... Wasn't Gallipoli the culmination of another Churchill plan?

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Link Posted: 7/24/2019 9:56:21 AM EDT
[#14]
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Yeah... Wasn't Gallipoli the culmination of another Churchill plan?

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Striking around the periphery has long been a British strategy.  Wasn't unique to Churchill.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:05:03 AM EDT
[#15]
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I understand that argument, and it can be a persuasive one, but I disagree.

It would have taken a UK/USSR alliance longer without US participation, but even if there was no US involvement, Germany would not have achieved its war aims.

I offer this as an opinion: for Germany to "win" it had to fully achieve its war aims in the East. Anything short of that would constitute a loss. (Again, IMO). With that in mind, I think it is evident that German war aims were unattainable by December 1941.
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Germans got within sight of Moscow.   No US involvement, they don't stop there.  Neither you nor I can say with any degree of certainty what happens after Moscow falls.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:09:36 AM EDT
[#16]
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Compare Soviet manufacturing capacity of the 1950's and 60's to the 1940's. I'm talking output of manufactured goods. Huge increases by the 50's even.

Why?  Because of the "buildup" to fight during WWII. Sure, they packed up and absconded with whole factories in conquered territories after the war, but that doesn't account for all of it.

Don't think in terms of the 41-45 timeline. Eventually, the Soviets would have stood up their own factories to satisfy their logistical needs.  This may have taken 5 years, or 7 maybe.  But it would have happened.

Now they may not have put out lend-lease scale of equipment, but they didn't need to.  Because the key comparison isn't Soviet organic manufacturing capability versus lend-lease.  The key comparison is Soviet manufacturing capability versus German capability. Of course the German stuff would be better. But the Soviets would still be able to bring the quantitative advantage. ETA "Quantity is a quality all its own" doesn't work against a country like America, because America could do both quality and quantity.  It does, however, work against an economy like WWII Germany's.  Because the Germans couldn't keep up in the quantity game.

Eventually, the Soviets would have been able to outproduce the Germans (which they did anyway in key sectors during the war, even when German manufacturing was hitting its heights ~1944.)  With the British still in the war, the strategic bombing variable in the west is still present.

Throw the manufacturing capability of the British Empire ontop of that, just to satisfy British needs, (IIRC, the 3rd largest economy in the world at the time) and you still have the UK/USSR winning the battle of industrial output.
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Alas, you are wrong.  Kharkov Locomotive Factory can build locos and rail cars, OR T-34s - but NOT BOTH.  American supply of logistics support in the form of trucks, ships, cargo planes, locomotives, pipe, cable, rail cars, rails. etc. and FOOD is what made Soviet production of war material possible.   Without the U.S. Russian production or tanks and such goes DOWN, not up.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:17:19 AM EDT
[#17]
For what it's worth, US GDP was more than than Germany, Britain, and the USSR combined by 1942.  By 1943, you could throw Japan in that pile as well.

The UK may have won a stunning victory in the BoB and the USSR may have done the bulk of the suffering and dying, but the big economic heavyweight behind the entire thing was the United States of America.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:19:41 AM EDT
[#18]
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Germans got within sight of Moscow.   No US involvement, they don't stop there.  Neither you nor I can say with any degree of certainty what happens after Moscow falls.
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We can say from the German perspective that time was of the essence in the planning for Barbarossa.  We can also say that the Germans assumed that a success in Barbarossa would lead to achievement of their war aims before the end of 1941. We can say for sure that the German timetable was already compromised before they got to Moscow.  By the time they got there? Goals were not achievable, not just because of the appearance of the Siberian armies.

The suicidal Soviet counterattacks in summer and fall 1941, while producing catastrophic Soviet losses were strategically effective: they attritted German combat power effectively enough to disrupt the timing of the campaign and inflicted enough casualties and materiel losses & forced the need for repair and service of equipment that they degraded the German's ability to meet their objectives.

The Germans' ability to fight the kind of war they built their assumptions around no longer existed after December 1941. It was supposed to be over by then.

It wasn't. And because it wasn't, the Germans had already lost the war by December 1941, even though at the time, they appeared to be sitting in the catbird seat.

All of this transpired before the US became involved in the war.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:23:49 AM EDT
[#19]
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Alas, you are wrong.  Kharkov Locomotive Factory can build locos and rail cars, OR T-34s - but NOT BOTH.  American supply of logistics support in the form of trucks, ships, cargo planes, locomotives, pipe, cable, rail cars, rails. etc. and FOOD is what made Soviet production of war material possible.   Without the U.S. Russian production or tanks and such goes DOWN, not up.
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If you assume a 1941-45 timeline.

No need to if you aren't considering the US as a participant, because like I said above, the rapidity of the German defeat is largely attributable to US participation. However, the inevitability of German defeat was assured on June 22, 1941.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:28:18 AM EDT
[#20]
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If you assume a 1941-45 timeline.

No need to if you aren't considering the US as a participant, because like I said above, the rapidity of the German defeat is largely attributable to US participation. However, the inevitability of German defeat was assured on June 22, 1941.
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Quoted:

Alas, you are wrong.  Kharkov Locomotive Factory can build locos and rail cars, OR T-34s - but NOT BOTH.  American supply of logistics support in the form of trucks, ships, cargo planes, locomotives, pipe, cable, rail cars, rails. etc. and FOOD is what made Soviet production of war material possible.   Without the U.S. Russian production or tanks and such goes DOWN, not up.
If you assume a 1941-45 timeline.

No need to if you aren't considering the US as a participant, because like I said above, the rapidity of the German defeat is largely attributable to US participation. However, the inevitability of German defeat was assured on June 22, 1941.
Except that with no US involvement, Russia is going to have Japan gnawing on its ass.  Troops don't fight without food and bullets, and guess where Russia's were coming from?
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:31:41 AM EDT
[#21]
It looks like a stalemate by the time the US entered the war in WW2.  Britain had no ability to invade Europe, and with the Kriegsmarine getting it's ass kicked harder every day, the Germans were never going to invade the UK.

Maybe the commies would've eventually put the Nazis down, but that's kind of dependent on our lend-lease supplies getting through to Russia.  Most of their logistics train was American built transport trucks.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:36:40 AM EDT
[#22]
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Except that with no US involvement, Russia is going to have Japan gnawing on its ass.  Troops don't fight without food and bullets, and guess where Russia's were coming from?
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I was assuming that there still is a war in the pacific between Japan and the US. While Germany and Japan were nominally allies, there was no coordination between them.  And remember, the happenstance of war with Germany was that they declared it on us. Had they not done so, it would have been difficult politically to maneuver into a war in Europe.

Also, even if there weren't a war between the US and Japan, there was a series of wars between the USSR and Japan up to 1939. The Japanese conclusion after those encounters was that war against the Soviets on the Asian mainland was not a worthwhile investment of limited resources. I think that assumption would still apply if they were busy consolidating their newly acquired possessions and clients in East Asia, Southeast Asia, Pacific, etc.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 11:39:31 AM EDT
[#23]
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http://atlanticsentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/German-invasion-Middle-East-map-1-600x400.jpg

Above is a map of the Middle East oil fields and pipelines during WW2.

I agree that initially the goal of sending Rommel to aid the Italians was not to take the oil fields.

However, once the success of Rommel in north Africa had sunk in Berlin, they of course began thinking about the oil fields in Iran and Iraq.  The Saudi Oil, had not been tapped yet, but the British had been getting oil from Iraq and Iran since around the time of WW1.

The German Army in southern Russia was still doing well on the offensive at this time.   Plans change as warfare changes, while things were going well for the Germans in both theatres, it was briefly on the table.

The eventual goal was the link up of the 2 armies in Iran.

With regard to the Italian campaign, I firmly believe Churchill pushed for something he knew wasn't going to work well.  In order have the Red Army continue to pay the majority of the butcher's bill for defeating the Germans.  For that I do admire him.  Another great example of the British being shady fucks.  
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You have a few things out of order that I'd like to address.

Rommel was never supposed to drive into Egypt, let alone the Middle East (where most oil was still not discovered until the 50-60s, with still lots of other British forces there). He was there with the tiny Africa Corps (three German divisions, while 189 were in Russia) simply to assist the Italians. In fact, German air support did far more to ensure victory against the British than his meager ground troops did.

There was no plan or concept of operations to drive into the Middle East for oil. Rommel defeated the Eighth Army at Gazala and then took Tobruk in June 1942. At that point he was supposed to stop, as he was ordered by his superiors in Africa (Italian general acting as theater commander, Kesselring as the OB South commander, the entire OKH and OKW HQs back in Germany). Why stop? Because there were not supplies enough to drive deeper. But Rommel blew them all off and charged into Egypt hoping not to go to the Middle East, but to take Alexandria, HQ of British Forces in Egypt (Eighth Army HQ).

So Tobruk fell in late June 1942, the 1st Battle of El Alamein (which stopped the Germans, but didn't beat them) was only a few weeks later. During that short time period after Rommel charged east, a few people in Germany toyed with the idea that Rommel might be able to eventually seize the Middle East and link up with the successful Army Group South after having taken the Caucasus. But there was never any serious contemplation of it, as it was a 1,900 mile drive, which was longer than any portion of the Eastern Front from German controlled Poland (which could barely be supplied). There most certainly was no plan for it.

There was a plan to grab oil, it was Operation Blue, the big German summer offensive of 1942, which was planned in late winter and early spring of '42, well before Rommel won his decisive victories at Gazala and Tobruk. It was that operation that was supposed to net Germany its oil, as well as take it away from Russia (a win win). It didn't fail until late fall and early winter of '42.

North Africa was never more than a side show for nearly everyone involved. It had zero long term strategic benefits for any participant in the war, minus Italy, who actually had a good reason for being there (cheap wheat). It was even useless for the British, as the only thing of value was the Suez, but that was useless until the Mediterranean was secure, which didn't happen for years to come.

You also wrote:

"It wasn't until the invasion of Italy that the Americans really began to contribute something meaningful on land in the European theater. Due to the complete incompetence of American General Clark, who could set up a shit show in a brewery, the Italian campaign was a complete abortion."

Clark was far out of his element commanding an army, but most of the problems in Italy weren't his fault. Nobody in the US Army even wanted to be there, it was Churchill's idea to ignore France entirely and try to enter Germany from the "Soft Underbelly," which was idiotic since anyone who looks at a topo map of Italy will know that its the worst place to attempt to attack. The US had been pressing to invade France in '42, the British fought to stop that (and Operation Torch was the result). They wanted to invade France in '43, the British fought to stop it (Husky and Avalanche were the result). They wanted to invade France in '44, the British tried to stop it, finally the US was a stronger Allied partner and Churchill couldn't stop it. Which is the only reason Normandy happened, and we didn't try to fight up a dozen major mountains just to get to the Alps, then fight our way through there, to then get into Austria, to fight our way through the mountains there, then to try to get to Berlin (Churchill's plan).

Sure, Salerno was not exactly well planned but the US Army had to land somewhere and there were few options that were aligned with the desires of the overall theater commander of the Italian Campaign (a British officer, Alexander, who was taking direct orders from Churchill, who was micromanaging as he was want to do). The biggest problem was the Germans correctly guessed the invasion beach area beforehand so had ample Panzer forces nearby to counterattack the landing (which nearly worked).

The British and US Army advance toward Rome was botched because of those pesky mountains, besides being split in two by the Apennine Mountain range. Monte Cassino was just one of many, many such obstacles that dotted Italy and had to be forced or flanked, that were a defender's paradise. Anzio, designed to flank the forces at Monte Cassino, was Churchill's bright idea, he pressed it, Alexander pushed it, Clark had to do it even though he didn't have the forces or the support necessary, it was essentially doomed before it kicked off.

Italy was an expensive side show that tied down far too many Allied forces. The ONLY positive was it tied down numerous German top tier divisions, including many very good panzer divisions, and in the end a slightly higher number of Germans died compared to British and Americans.
http://atlanticsentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/German-invasion-Middle-East-map-1-600x400.jpg

Above is a map of the Middle East oil fields and pipelines during WW2.

I agree that initially the goal of sending Rommel to aid the Italians was not to take the oil fields.

However, once the success of Rommel in north Africa had sunk in Berlin, they of course began thinking about the oil fields in Iran and Iraq.  The Saudi Oil, had not been tapped yet, but the British had been getting oil from Iraq and Iran since around the time of WW1.

The German Army in southern Russia was still doing well on the offensive at this time.   Plans change as warfare changes, while things were going well for the Germans in both theatres, it was briefly on the table.

The eventual goal was the link up of the 2 armies in Iran.

With regard to the Italian campaign, I firmly believe Churchill pushed for something he knew wasn't going to work well.  In order have the Red Army continue to pay the majority of the butcher's bill for defeating the Germans.  For that I do admire him.  Another great example of the British being shady fucks.  
You're still not tracking what I'm saying. My bad, I'm not good at communicating online.

Rommel wasn't really dominating North Africa until Gazala and then Tobruk, those were the decisive battles when he trashed the British and forced them to retreat far to the east to Egypt. While that was happening, Operation Blue, the major German offensive of 1942, aimed at taking the Caucasus, kicked off late June 1942. The battles of Gazala and Tobruk also occurred in June 1942. The first battle of El Alamein happened in early July 1942

So all of these things are happening at about the same time. Its at this point some individuals were chatting (and doing nothing else) about the possibilities of exploiting Rommel's advances after he blew off his entire chain of command and chased after the British. He was making progress up to the point he ran into the defensive line at El Alamein, so that is when this idea of a Middle East invasion was crafted. But how serious was it? How and when did anyone in OKW (North Africa was their baby) actually conceive of anything grander involving the Middle East? And while many of the senior OKW generals weren't the most stellar minds, even they weren't insane enough to believe the below could happen. Remember, these were the individuals who warned, ordered, threatened Rommel not to progress into Egypt. Because they didn't have the supplies (because Africa was a supporting effort, while Army Group South's offensive was the strategic schwerpunkt/main effort for 1942, being prioritized with equipment, manpower, and supplies).

Let me pull up some numbers to put this into a better perspective for what I mean. I went onto Google Maps and pulled up some directions with driving distances, equating the basic travel distances between destinations, to emphasize the supply impossibilities. .

Rommel completely outran his supply line going from Tobruk to El Alamein. We can all agree on that, and its not like they didn't know it was going to happen, that was exactly why they told him not to advance to Egypt. That distance was 550 kilometers/ or 341 miles.

From El Alamein to Cairo (nation capital and key communication network) is another 259 km/160 miles.

From Cairo, Egypt to Kirkuk, Iraq (the closest oil fields) is 1,890 km/1,174 miles.

All throughout the Middle East are more British. More so, they control ports in the Persian Gulf to continuously resupply themselves that the Germans wouldn't be able to contest, while their supplies could only move through the Mediterranean coast, and not well, as Malta hadn't been taken and the British were still a major naval/air threat to German convoys.

To also put that in perspective of the Eastern Front, another place notorious for pushing supply lines past the breaking point, from Rzeszow (German occupied Poland, the jump off point for the schwerpunkt of Army Group South in June 1941) to Stalingrad, the farthest inside the USSR the Germans ever got, is ~1,800 km/1,118 miles. So those units, who were No. 1 priority for everything, who didn't have to worry about oceans and the Royal Navy, and long shipping distances, even they couldn't handle a shorter distance.

That needs to be understood. The theory is that the Germans somehow had the ability to supply a weak army, very poorly mobilized, that only miraculously made it as far as it did, with almost no air support anymore, for a total of 1,675 miles past their last secure supply depot, while only ever being a strategic supporting effort, one that was pissing off most of the OKW and OKH, as Rommel's close relationship with Hitler meant the former would routinely give in to the latter and have him sent more manpower, units, tanks, aircraft, munitions, fuel than they were supposed to have, should have had.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 11:45:17 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Our friend @Agent_Funky informed me that the United States, twice (both world wars),

"joined a fight we are already winning"

Original post, so any context is not lost

For those of you that are scholars and military history buffs... prove or disprove his claim. Was Britain/
England/the UK "already winning" world war 2 when the United States entered the fight?

ETA (2023 EDT): Fixed phone typo "the Britain/England/UK" fixed to "Britain/England/the UK"
View Quote
LOL while germany may not have been apply to invade and hold the island. they most certainly would have been able to sink anything sailing to and from it. which would have effectively made it theirs after a short period of time. of course, we(USA) must have slapped them(UK) so hard in the 1700s that they are still suffering from memory issues.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 11:57:03 AM EDT
[#25]
USSR was toast without US aid.
UK was toast without the USSR.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 4:16:42 PM EDT
[#26]
No , as a matter of fact our diplomats were working with Canada to try and convince the Brits to transfer the flag on all Naval Ships to the Canadian Flag .
This reminds of a young Brit we had worked with many years ago who was convinced the Soviet Union (Russia) treated them better during WW II that the US did .
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 5:24:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Tag

Txl
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 5:37:46 PM EDT
[#28]
I think it depends on how "winning" is defined and who's defining it.

Britain successfully held off Nazi Germany and won the Battle of Britain. They were not occupied, their military power was not destoryed and the destruction of their island was held at a minimum. And I think they could have held out until the Russians destroyed Germany. Many, including me, would call that a win, if a limited one considering the full scope of the conflict.

However, they could not, at least IMO, have won the entire scope of the conflict called "WWII" on their own, they lacked the materials and manpower. However, at the time no nation other than the US was capable of that and we had lots of help.

So yes, in the UK view of saving Britain Funky is right. In the view of the rest of the world he'd be wrong if he claimed they were winning WWII since they weren't capable of it by themselves.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 5:44:04 PM EDT
[#29]
While "joined the fight" is a bit vague, without lend-lease, Moscow falls.  Without US pressure in the Pacific, India falls, or is at least cut off, and Russia might get attacked on it's eastern front.

With India unable to supply troops, the US not supplying anything, and Russia well and truly fucked, I don't see a win for the UK standing alone against all of Europe and Asia.

WW1?  Harder to say.  We were late to that party, but that party sucked ass.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 5:59:36 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
While "joined the fight" is a bit vague, without lend-lease, Moscow falls.  Without US pressure in the Pacific, India falls, or is at least cut off, and Russia might get attacked on it's eastern front.

With India unable to supply troops, the US not supplying anything, and Russia well and truly fucked, I don't see a win for the UK standing alone against all of Europe and Asia.

WW1?  Harder to say.  We were late to that party, but that party sucked ass.
View Quote
Lend-lease had no affect on the Battle of Moscow in 1941.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:02:37 PM EDT
[#31]
No. The USSR was.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:11:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
.
Yeah... Wasn't Gallipoli the culmination of another Churchill plan?

.
View Quote
When you dither for months instead of striking, you get muddled messes. The Allies took Sicily and did not have a plan to immediately jump across the straight, they gave time for the Germans to reinforce and regroup. Then to top it off instead of landing south of Rome and cutting the Peninsula in two, they just hoped over at the shortest point and fought up the length of the peninsula.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:23:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
.
Yeah... Wasn't Gallipoli the culmination of another Churchill plan?

.
View Quote
yes
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:25:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Churchill also wanted to land in Yugoslavia and drive north from there.  Mountain fighting isn't easy, but it would have save Eastern Europe.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:33:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Lend-lease had no affect on the Battle of Moscow in 1941.
View Quote
The hell it didn't.

Lend-Lease was proposed in late 1940, and passed in March of 41.  The Battle of Moscow started in October of 1941 - Lend-Lease had already been in effect for 5 months.  While little material had reached Russia yet, - it was on the way, and that knowledge doubtless had an effect on the willingness to expend fuel, ammunition, and war material already on hand.

Stalin, Zhukov,  and Krushchev on the subject:

"Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs:

I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.[44]

Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference during 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American machines the United Nations could never have won the war."[45][46]

In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying:

Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us ... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war."
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:43:12 PM EDT
[#36]
No.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 6:53:40 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

The hell it didn't.

Lend-Lease was proposed in late 1940, and passed in March of 41.  The Battle of Moscow started in October of 1941 - Lend-Lease had already been in effect for 5 months.  While little material had reached Russia yet, - it was on the way, and that knowledge doubtless had an effect on the willingness to expend fuel, ammunition, and war material already on hand.

Stalin, Zhukov,  and Krushchev on the subject:

"Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs:

I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.[44]

Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference during 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American machines the United Nations could never have won the war."[45][46]

In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying:

Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us ... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war."
View Quote
The Soviets had little choice but to defend Moscow. It was the major rail hub. Lend-lease would have been worthless if it can't get to where it needs to go. The Soviets would never have been able to conduct the large scale offensives in 43/44 without US aid no doubt.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 8:44:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

This is the part I think a lot of people get wrong.  Without a war in the West, assuming the British took the peace deal in 1940 or 1941, the Germans would have now been able to direct their entire machine against the Soviets.

No matter what, I don't see the Germans steam rolling the Soviets in 1941.

Best case scenario for the Germans is a victory by the end of 1942, but realistically more like 1943 or 1944.

However, I do think the German victory is inevitable in the East.

Lend-Lease worked in large part because the Royal Navy protected the Murmansk convoys going into northern Russia.  There was the famous case of the convoy PQ17, that lost it's naval escort and the Germans sank something like 70% of the ships in the convoy.

With a neutral Britain, there would obviously be no Royal Navy protection for the artic convoys.  It is also questionable if the US would still have extended the Lend-Lease program to the Soviets with Britain out of the war.

Furthermore, a "neutral" Britain, or Britain that takes the German peace deal, is a British government with no more Churchill.  Remember at this time, the British have access to the Anglo-Persian Oil company and the massive oil fields in Iran and Iraq.

There is little doubt that the British oil would have been sold to the Germans had Britain taken a German peace deal.  Everyone likes making money and the Germans would have an insatiable appetite for all the oil the British could sell them.

Which solves the German's biggest problem of the war.  Lack of gasoline.  From the lowest private, to Adolph Galland, to the generals this was something everyone in the German military thought was their biggest problem.

Depending on which sources you read and how you interpret them, something like 75-80% of all the 20,000 Flak 88mm guns were used in the West.  They killed something like 20% of all Soviet tanks on the Eastern Front.  Moving all those guns to the East is a massive amount of Soviet armor that would be destroyed.

In 1941 and 1942 the Germans are doing well in the East because they have this thing called air cover.  The war really started turning against them when the majority of the Luftwaffe got shipped off to the West to stop the Allied bombing offensive in 1943.  Again something like 75-80% of the Luftwaffe's losses were in the West.  
Moving those aircraft to the East massively alter the strategic balance of power in the Germans favour.

Additionally there is the 1 million men who were used in the West to combat the Allied bombing offensive.  1 million more soldiers in the East also tips the scales further in the Germans favour.  Peace in the West also means the soldiers garrisoning the Western European nations could be moved to the East.

Peace with Britain means the Germans can take the industrial resources they were consuming to build U-boats into building more tanks and aircraft to fight the war in the East.  Again another massive shift in the balance of power in favour of the Germans.

With all that out of the way lets get back to how long it takes the Germans to win in the East.  Most likely by the end 1943 into 1944.  IMHO the Germans would have suffered millions of casualties achieving this.

Which is why I find the notion of Germany conquering the Soviet Union, then taking over Britain and the rest of Europe as laughable.

Winning in the East would take the Germans at least a generation to recover from, more like 2 generations.  Remember the goal was to create this Greater Germany or Lebensraum in the East.  You could argue the German economy has yet to recover from absorbing East Germany.  Most of the Soviet Union was still barely past the Feudal stage of development.  Victory in the Soviet Union for the Germans, takes them out of the "fucking with other Europeans" game till at least the 1960s-1970s.  Granted, at this point they would be in a massively dominant position.

IMHO the British peace deal would end up pushing the US and UK into a potential conflict for control of the seas in the late 1940-1950s.  There could plausibly have been an alliance between the British and Germany against the US and Japan.  It could have gone a couple of different ways.  The huge wild card in this situation is who would develop and field such weapons like: Jet Fighters, ICBMs, Nukes, etc first?

It's a very fascinating thing to speculate, with few clear answers.  
View Quote
nick1983, I like your assessment overall better than others.  A British peace and a lack of Germany tying themselves to the Japanese would have given almost totally free reign in the Russia campaign.  I differ with you a little on the time line, but victory in a Russian campaign would probably only include the industrial and major cities closer to Germany...like no further than the Urals.  Many Russians, including some form of government, would retreat to the vast eastern sections of Russia, and there would be little need for Germany to pursue them to the Bering Sea/Pacific regions...at least in the short term.

You are so right on fuel/oil requirements of the Germans.  A British peace agreement and the capture of oil fields to the E/SE would have provided all the petroleum resources needed.  I'm not sure I agree with the number of German casualties you suggest with a full-tilt, clearly focused German effort, and especially if Germany is able to destroy/capture all of Russia's critical infrastructure closer to Germany.  Surely there would be some guerilla response by the Russians, and even that could probably be tamped out eventually.

People often get the impression that the Russian soldier and citizen were 100% communist and solidly behind their government.  This is one area where Germany made a mistake in how they dealt with the Russian people as they advanced into Russia.  After a more-or-less victory over industrialized Russia, Germany would probably not face much of highly driven Russian army.  Without a strong and brutal communist leadership in place to threaten and whip them into submission, I think most Russians would have melted away into their home areas or the more eastern sections of Russia where the Germans weren't.

Interesting theories brought forth by many.  It's a good thing to learn from history and even learn from many of the "what ifs" in alternate outcomes.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 8:53:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Considering that the once great British Empire was completely bankrupted and dismantled after fighting two world wars, even with a bit of American help, it seems disingenuous to claim that they could have won, without it.    Economically, politically, spiritually. Britain was spent.    It was a close run thing, even With America on your side.
View Quote
The most convincing argument that Britain wouldn't have beaten Germany on its own is that it took the combined might of the British Empire, plus that of the Soviet Union, plus that of the US, three and one-half years to completely defeat Hitler.

On their own, the British would have only been able to hold off Germany.  Liberating Europe would have been a pipe dream.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 9:04:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

The most convincing argument that Britain wouldn't have beaten Germany on its own is that it took the combined might of the British Empire, plus that of the Soviet Union, plus that of the US, three and one-half years to completely defeat Hitler.

On their own, the British would have only been able to hold off Germany.  Liberating Europe would have been a pipe dream.
View Quote
Good.  I would argue that the British couldn't land or maintain an invasion force big enough to stay on Normandy Beach.   The UK could keep Germany at bay (can't cross the channel), but by the same token the liberation of France and Western Europe could not have been done by the UK alone.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 9:11:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Without U.S. intervention the Germans would have pounded England flat with rockets until they negotiated a peace treaty.

Then, with Europe secure, they would have thrown everything at Russia.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 9:36:18 PM EDT
[#42]
What a joke. The Brits were hanging on by their fingernails. If you believe Great Britain was winning the war in 1941 so forcefully they left Germany with no choice but to invade the USSR you need a psych eval. Just a couple months into 1942 they would be all but driven out of the Pacific and lose the Gibraltar of the East (Singapore) and minus 2 battleships in the Pacific and the HMS Hood in 1941.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:00:56 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Man it’s a hard call on WWI. The Argonne offensive was arguably an American effort.  They were entrenched and then the Americans sent over some hobos from NY (Liberty or Lost Batallion) and the Argonne was insane.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
World War II no the UK nor the USSR would have one with out our help.
World War I UK and France might have won eventually without our help.
That is very debatable.
Man it’s a hard call on WWI. The Argonne offensive was arguably an American effort.  They were entrenched and then the Americans sent over some hobos from NY (Liberty or Lost Batallion) and the Argonne was insane.
Agreed, WWI is a tough call, but I lean toward Central Powers winning- Austria & Turks dragged over the line by the incredible German army. Britain and France were literally spent. I don't think they could not have won without US men & material. Germany had something like 80 DIVISIONS (IIRC from the Great War YT series) on the Eastern front that were largely freed up after Russia dropped out. Huge resources available in Eastern Europe too. Germany wasn't able to maximize this advantage before morale collapsed in the late Spring 1918. Very possibly Britain and/or France could have eventually experienced large scale domestic issues due to Commies.

WWII is interesting, would the Ruskies eventually win due to man-power, Hitler's idiocy and micro-management?.....of course, again without US support, that is dicey.
If Japan attacks Russia instead of the US in 1941.....I wonder. Hard to imagine Germany ever invading Britain, but much harder to imagine Britain liberating Europe without GI's. Would the Brits have defeated Rommel without US? I have my doubts.
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:34:39 PM EDT
[#44]
WWI - The Russians had pulled out of the war due to the revolution, so Germany was sending all her troops from the east to the western front when the US troops arrived.
WW2 - Not as clear cut but with no USAF things would have gotten "interesting".
Link Posted: 7/24/2019 10:38:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Good.  I would argue that the British couldn't land or maintain an invasion force big enough to stay on Normandy Beach.   The UK could keep Germany at bay (can't cross the channel), but by the same token the liberation of France and Western Europe could not have been done by the UK alone.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

The most convincing argument that Britain wouldn't have beaten Germany on its own is that it took the combined might of the British Empire, plus that of the Soviet Union, plus that of the US, three and one-half years to completely defeat Hitler.

On their own, the British would have only been able to hold off Germany.  Liberating Europe would have been a pipe dream.
Good.  I would argue that the British couldn't land or maintain an invasion force big enough to stay on Normandy Beach.   The UK could keep Germany at bay (can't cross the channel), but by the same token the liberation of France and Western Europe could not have been done by the UK alone.
Their first attempt didn't go very well.  Normandy would have been a slaughter if it had just been between Britain and Germany.
Link Posted: 7/25/2019 12:46:09 AM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

nick1983, I like your assessment overall better than others.  A British peace and a lack of Germany tying themselves to the Japanese would have given almost totally free reign in the Russia campaign.  I differ with you a little on the time line, but victory in a Russian campaign would probably only include the industrial and major cities closer to Germany...like no further than the Urals.  Many Russians, including some form of government, would retreat to the vast eastern sections of Russia, and there would be little need for Germany to pursue them to the Bering Sea/Pacific regions...at least in the short term.

You are so right on fuel/oil requirements of the Germans.  A British peace agreement and the capture of oil fields to the E/SE would have provided all the petroleum resources needed.  I'm not sure I agree with the number of German casualties you suggest with a full-tilt, clearly focused German effort, and especially if Germany is able to destroy/capture all of Russia's critical infrastructure closer to Germany.  Surely there would be some guerilla response by the Russians, and even that could probably be tamped out eventually.

People often get the impression that the Russian soldier and citizen were 100% communist and solidly behind their government.  This is one area where Germany made a mistake in how they dealt with the Russian people as they advanced into Russia.  After a more-or-less victory over industrialized Russia, Germany would probably not face much of highly driven Russian army.  Without a strong and brutal communist leadership in place to threaten and whip them into submission, I think most Russians would have melted away into their home areas or the more eastern sections of Russia where the Germans weren't.

Interesting theories brought forth by many.  It's a good thing to learn from history and even learn from many of the "what ifs" in alternate outcomes.
View Quote
Part of the reason I have allowed the Germans extra time to defeat the Soviets in Russia is due to the massive issue of partisan activity.

Most people do not understand the sheer scale of warfare in the East.  This is a gross over simplification, but at times it was almost like a naval battle on land due to the vastness of front.

During the mind boggling success of the German army in 1941, entire Soviet armies / divisions were encircled and just "disappeared".  Throughout the entire war in the East, there were tens of thousands of former Soviet soldiers fighting as partisans behind the German lines.  It was a massive problem for the German supply lines.

If you look at the post war situation in the Soviet Union, in some of the Eastern block nations of the Soviet Union, they were still fighting the Soviets into the late 1940s / early 1950s.

In many cases when the Germany Army marched into countries like Ukraine and the Baltic nations in 1941 the civilians were welcoming the Germans as heroes.  One Ukrainian said: "we loved the Germans and thought of them as heroes...……….until the Einzatzgruppen came, then we hated them".

The Germans really screwed up by treating the Poles, and Ukrainians like shit.  They were chomping at the bit for a Mauser and a chance to kill Russians.

Again what most people don't understand is that the war in the East was a 5 way war.

The Germans and the Soviets were fighting each other.

There were Soviet partisans who were the leftovers of the encircled Soviets armies fighting the Germans behind the lines.

There were Ukrainian, Polish and Baltic partisans fighting the Red Army.

There were Ukrainian, Polish and Baltic partisans fighting the German Army.

There were Ukrainian, Polish and Baltic partisans fighting the Soviet partisans.

Not to mention the fact that the Waffen SS was compromised mostly Eastern Europeans.

It was a GIANT mess.  Which is why the notion that Hitler would be able to invade the Soviet Union, win and then turn around and attack Britain and the rest of Western Europe in the mid-1940s has no basis whatsoever in reality.

We also have to remember, the Germans would be trying to modernize a largely agrarian society.  Based on the data we have off the massive economic effort it took West Germany to bring East Germany into "modern Germany", bearing in mind East Germany was the most modern country in the USSR, Germany would be completely militarily and economically consumed with creating a Greater Germany in the east till the 1960s-1980s.

What would be fascinating to speculate would the progression of weapons technology in this scenario of Germany, the UK and the US.

In the Pacific I see the British and the US taking the Japanese down by the middle of 1944.

The really interesting thing is part of the peace deals that were offered to the British to keep them out of the war in Europe, the Germans promised to protect the British Empire against any aggression, including from the Japanese.  Not quite sure how much of a help the Germans would be in the Pacific, but it's another fascinating thing to speculate on.
Link Posted: 7/25/2019 1:52:31 PM EDT
[#47]
What I find amazing is the logistics side of the second world war.  For the US, we sent not only the personnel, but the materials needed for the war fighting effort to Europe and the Pacific.  We had a logistics tail that was unmatched by any of our allies or the axis.   Not only did we do that, but we supplied the allied effort as well.  When you look at the aircraft, ships, tanks, artillery, transport, small arms, ammunition, fuel, rations, uniforms, tents and all the other equipment used it is quite a feat that the vast majority of this was made in the US and shipped far and wide around the globe.   It is almost mindboggling to think of the system that was in place to make this happen.
Link Posted: 7/25/2019 4:22:38 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What I find amazing is the logistics side of the second world war.  For the US, we sent not only the personnel, but the materials needed for the war fighting effort to Europe and the Pacific.  We had a logistics tail that was unmatched by any of our allies or the axis.   Not only did we do that, but we supplied the allied effort as well.  When you look at the aircraft, ships, tanks, artillery, transport, small arms, ammunition, fuel, rations, uniforms, tents and all the other equipment used it is quite a feat that the vast majority of this was made in the US and shipped far and wide around the globe.   It is almost mindboggling to think of the system that was in place to make this happen.
View Quote
Not only that, but also the Manhattan Project - no other country could have pulled that off.  The commitment in time, money , land, and materials was huge.

On top of that, building, testing, and putting into operational use not one, but TWO delivery systems for a nuke.
Link Posted: 7/25/2019 9:20:10 PM EDT
[#49]
yeah, I've heard the Super Fortress was actually a bigger, more expensive program than the Bomb.. all the different technology that went into it..

incredible
Link Posted: 7/25/2019 9:26:21 PM EDT
[#50]
I try to speak with a cock-kneed accent to pay home age to our brown teethed four bears
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