Much more likely that it is oil. Nicotine is water soluble, so you can use PG to suspend it in vape juice which is more or less harmless. THC is fat soluble and morons are suspending it in Vitamin E oil that then solidifies in the lungs when it cools.

This. Not sure what the big deal is with the flute.

PMI doesn't invest in vaping, they peddle HTU, which the FDA classifies as a cigarette.  Every market PMI introduced IQOS saw a decline.  Most foreign governments continue to tax HTU and vape products but some are at a lower rate than cigarettes.

35% in Juule is not a big investment - especially since it occurred after Juule got hammered for marketing to kids.

Now if you want to see big tobacco flexing it’s muscles - look to India.  Largest tobacco market in the world.  India outlawed sale and manufacture of all vape related products last week.  42million people vaped in India - but that is almost statistically insignificant to the number of tobacco smokers.
—-
One little thing worries me slightly.  What has changed in the vape industry in the last 6 months...  A bunch of states have passed tobacco 21 (which should seriously curb the youth “epidemic”). Multiple issues with Juule (hammered by the marketing to minor issue, sold 35% to big tobacco, huge influx in counterfeit pods, large leak of genuine pods to counterfeit juice market-making it impossible to tell if it is real or not).  Then the one that worries me -  low concentration sub ohm nic salt ejuice has gained popularity.  It worries me because I got several bottles about a month ago.  They immediately became my favorite juice.

I don't know much about the nicotine salts based systems (like Juul), but I doubt a tainted run of wire would have caused the issues.

There are substantial differences between traditional PG/VG 'juice' based systems and the new salts based systems. If the illnesses are shared across both platforms, we can likely rule out the delivery mechanism.

I'd be inclined to blame a tainted batch of nicotine extract, but that doesn't account for the illness being present in THC users.

I am curious if the illnesses are limited to pod (salts / Juul style) based systems. If so, it wouldn't surprise me if they are simply overdosing. The salts based systems deliver higher concentrations faster than traditional juice.

The problem is we don't have enough data to draw conclusions from. What has been released is inconclusive and sketchy at best. Some patients are suspected of using vape products, but with no specifics. Others are said to have recently started vaping, but once again no specifics. What we need is full details - what devices are they using, what consumables are they using, when did they start, where did they buy the items, which flavors or concentrations are they using, etc. etc.

When the tainted Tylenol issue happened years ago, it was traced down to specific products, batches, and lot numbers. There was no national discussion on banning all OTC analgesics out of an abundance of caution.

I disagree that their are substantial differences.  The difference is that salt based systems “can” use juice that has effectively a much higher concentration of nic than is comfortable with freebase systems.  Because of this, it can use much less power and vaporize much less fluid to achieve the same nic effects.  That said, unless you are dealing with pure VG, there are tons of pod based systems that you can fill with lower nic freebase juice and still make vape.  You just need to take more hits for an effect.

The flip side to that is I have a 3mg salt ejuice in my sub-ohm right now.  It works almost exactly like a 3mg freebase ejuice, but has almost no throat hit.  It is really smooth.

I have also been stupid and put 30mg salt in a sub-ohm direct to lung device.  It is not a pleasent experience.  I had to rewick.  That said, my wife also hated that same juice in her pod system.
—-
For investigative purposes, I just took a couple puffs off my wife’s pod system.  Damn it is harsh compared to my sub-ohm. The low nic freebase was stronger off it than mine, and the nic salt was wicked.

So kind of the only differences is most pod based systems work with lower watts and more restrictive airflow.  (Of course I can restrict airflow on mine, but have no desire to).  The restricted airflow allows the low watt unit to make a thicker, but much smaller, puff than high airflow would.

I have never tried the nicotine salt based juices, so I will defer to you on the subject.

Personally, I would like to see the industry better regulated. Whether that means 'self-regulated' or 'regulated by force' is immaterial. I want FDA involved to study which flavorings are safe(r) for inhalation. I want juice produced in compounding pharmacies, not bathtubs or third world countries. I would like to see vaping presented as a safer alternative to smoking.

That means treating it as a public good, not as something that needs to be banned. We research food additives to ensure a safe food supply and don't threaten to ban all food because some food is bad for you, vaping should be the same way. Humans like nicotine, why can't we perfect the safest possible delivery mechanism for it?

Pardon the rant. It really isn't directed at you.

I still haven’t seen anyone say why it isn’t an issue in other countries like Europe. I’m sure they vape there. Why is this only a US problem? Not a single peep about any suspected issues anywhere else including Canada.

Still say something doesn’t make sense. I’m not trying to say it’s not possible that there’s an issue, but until we start to see the same thing going on in other areas it makes it look highly suspect.

Vaping has been a thing for close to 20 years now.  Some of the deceased had recently started vaping.

Spot on.

I have switched over to salts from freebase nicotine also. I prefer the term buffered nicotine instead of salt. I have no idea who came up with that moniker but they need a slap in the head.

I switched from a high watt tank system over to a ZERO pod system. I bounce back and forth between 12mg free to 25mg buffered in my pods.

I agree there is a huge difference in smoothness between the two types.

Back to the main discussion, I'm still leaning more towards tainted/cut liquid causing the issue.

I have yet to see a what the actual cause of death is for these individuals, or any explanation of how vaping caused it.

yep

honk honk

it is all about the money and the corruption

11 whole deaths?  Jeebus, we better ban kiddie pools those thongs kill waaaaay more kids.  For the children.

Vaping is pretty retarded imo.

Banning lightening...now you are in to something....we should probably start a “War on Sharks” while we are at it......for the kids

I started vaping like 3-4 years ago....

Its almost as if some big profitable businesses were trying to shrink market options back down so that they could corner that market.....

So is this some insidious way to create housing or employment.

11 people have probably died this year from simply eating.

I would be willing to bet many more than 11 were killed directly my McDonalds food

Every thread against vaping or the people within the thread that see vaping as a "serious" threat seem to have a negative outlook on vaping in general and are just using the mysterious deaths with very little to no information as a way to justify their outlook.

Every report I've seen the people died from the use of THC carts that had Vitamin E Acetate in them, another thing I didnt even think of is deaths in general that could be blamed on vaping. How many people die per year with no reported cause? Or people that die from something small that started years ago, these cases could also have a few people that experience one or the other...but lets ban vaping because "I think its stupid". I dont see a real reason people think its stupid aside from people who dont smoke using it as a fad, that is stupid - but having a alternative to smoking that has saved the lives of millions over the course of 20 years isnt what I would consider "stupid".

I would like to see more information surrounding these deaths, especially the persons physical characteristics, life choices, and health issues aside from vaping. There is more information on people who OD from heroine than these vaping cases, and many of the OD cases are seen and written in just a few minutes...being that these are the first few cases being blamed on vaping you would think they would spend a extraordinary amount of time pulling all the information they could on each case to see if in every case that vaping was the cause of death and how vaping was the actual culprit....unless it is about money and control.

Gov needs funding, if people are alive and doing well they cannot expand. If people are getting sick and dying then many programs are called for, and there will be a need for funding for each of these programs. Vaping has costs them billions in the last 2 decades, and to get that settlement funding for each state by Big Tobacco companies (the case is "THE PEOPLE vs. BIG TOBACCO"), which tobacco companies had agreed to pay $368.5 billion over the first 25 years to smokers and states to cover medical costs for cigarette-related illnesses - the states and Feds have to follow requirements set up by BIG Toacco to get that funding every year. Any deviation will impede or cost them.
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mollenkamp-tobacco.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cdc-states-make-billions-from-tobacco-taxes-and-lawsuits-but-spend-little-on-smoking-prevention/
https://www.npr.org/2013/10/13/233449505/15-years-later-where-did-all-the-cigarette-money-go

Look at X-rays of people who smoked and then quit by way of vaping, their lungs look much healthier after a few months. There isnt any "second hand vapor" as the air quality is the same after it is exhaled. There arent any chemicals in eliquid that people arent already using in other medical uses, its the same ingredients that are used in Inhalers, Nebulizers, and Vaporizers....Propylene Glycol, Vegetable Glycerin, Nicotine (optional), and flavoring.
Vaping has been around for almost 2 decades now and the ingredients and delivery system is the same as the vaporizers and inhalers used by hospitals and parents for decades.

Tar in smoking is what ultimately destroys your lungs by coating these hairs. If vaping was a problem then people that use nebulizers to breathe would also have the same issues as it uses the same style atomization and same ingredients, which have been used for almost 70 years as a medical treatment for your lungs.

Ive been vaping since 2006, from what Ive read by other posters on the forum, I and millions of others on vaping forums should have died a while ago.

4chan graphic, but I believe I was right on page 1

Black market vape capsules with dealers trying to stretch their product by putting in a ton of toxic shit

Attached File

Well look at that, vindicated by the cdc.

Just reading a thread on Reddit about how a fungicide (myclobutanil) turns into hydrogen cyanide when heated.
It is commonly found in THC carts/oils.

One of the post there (cited NBC news)

Ban nicotine flavors! It's for the children! People are dying!

Damn, Chemistry, you scary!

Jesus Christ!

What about Vick’s vapoinhaler?

What are they smoking?

All those young people under 18.That have died and the ones that vape how come none of the parents dont go to jail for child abuse????

If parents were held more accountable for the actions of their children, the children may be punished more leading them to be more well behaved.. win win?

Not sure why everyone keeps trying to down play the importance of people dying. Should we not try and find causes of things that are killing people? What if you knew someone that had this illness or even died from it, you probably wouldn't like people posting about how lightning kills more people.

More laws and bans is always the answer

What if it saves lives tho? Its not like a gun. No vape pen has saved someone's life.

Bull crap.

You can't prove a negative. Vaping may or may not of saved my life by not smoking cigarettes.

And to your point about finding the cause of the deaths, no one is saying it shouldn't be looked into. But it is being blown out of proportion.

Vaping is not the direct cause just the delivery system. They were poisoned by something not associated with traditional vaping liquids.

What, where, and how the substance(s) was (were) introduced are the important questions.

A gun can be shown to have saved a life. You can't really say that about vaping because its just a substitute. A nicotine inhaler (not a heat element, like below) is a better alternative as a cessation device, but I don't think you can really make a case that it saved someone. A gun in a self defense situation literally saves a life. Right then, right there. Can't say that about any vape device.



I dont think its being blown out of proportion. People respond to this kind of media coverage. Look at the frenzy whipped up about bumpstocks. This "blown out of proportion" coverage is probably lessening the use of vapes across the US. Vapers tend to be young and can be saved. I got a buddy (my friends neighbor), who's 18, he said he started because everyone around him was doing it and he started just to fit in. After all this coverage he said he wouldn't ever go near the stuff again. He's not a stupid kid either, has a job installing avionics and is getting his pilots license soon.

I think its getting the attention it deserves.

A) Who cares
B) We need to remove laws, not add more
C) I bet more people died from building IKEA furniture

I use nicotine for your safety, not mine.

That should be a sig line.

Why aren’t you supporting bans on kiddie pools....or full size pools for that matter then?  It would save lots of lives.  Probably should ban fast food.....oh and cars, definitely cars.

Hard to prove what would have happen if the gun wasn't there. That's conjecture.
We can only take an educated guess of the situations outcome if it wasn't present.
That's why it's so hard to prove to gun grabbers that guns save lives.

A gun is a substitute for a knife, a knife is a substitute for a hand, etc.

What are the ingredients of said inhaler? And who makes it?

You are moving the goal posts. First it was about the deaths and vaping bad, to now it's keeping kids from vaping.

I'm glad the kid chose not to vape. Honestly, good for him. Peer pressure is a strong force, that's how I got into smoking cigarettes.

But it doesn't make him a rocket scientist to be scared off because sensationalized media stories. I hope he doesn't vote if that's all it takes to change his mind.

You're on a anti-vaping crusade for whatever reason so nothing else matters. You just keep pushing your agenda. Hmmm, that seems very familiar.

We already banned children using vape devices.

Banning it from adults is ridiculous. If we're banning it "to save lives", we need to ban fatty foods and beer as well.

You get it. I’ve said the same thing many times

Do you drink alcohol? Do you use caffeine? Do you eat red meat?

Maybe we can [b]save[b] you too and ban those things. If you're going to be a nanny state yankee statist, you might as well get a taste of your own medicine.

The CDC just came out that the problem of this Lung shit is associated with Bootleg THC products !!!!!!

The report also stated that because THC products are illegal for nonmedical use in these states (and others), and the
majority of these products are obtained through friends, dealers or illegal means, it's possible some patients didn't disclose
what products they'd used.

Duhhhhhh  !!!

Health departments in some states – namely New York and Utah – are also eyeing vitamin E acetate as a potential cause of
illness in some residents there. Laboratory testing confirmed the substance, also known as vitamin E oil, was present in
"nearly all of the cannabis-containing samples" obtained from some sickened patients in New York. Meanwhile, Utah health
officials said 90 percent of the samples tested by a state laboratory contained the agent.



.

From the CDC (it seems like 16% of the patients are lying...)

CDC has received sex and age data on 771 patients.

About 69% of patients are male.

Nearly two thirds (62%) of patients are 18 to 34 years old; with 22% of patients between 18-21.

16% of patients are under 18 years.

All reported patients have a history of e-cigarette product use or vaping.

The latest findings from the investigation into lung injuries associated with e-cigarette use, or vaping, suggest products containing THC play a role in the outbreak.

CDC has received data on substances used in e-cigarettes or vaping products in the 30 days prior to symptom onset among 514 patients.

About 77% reported using THC-containing products; 36% reported exclusive use of THC-containing products.

About 57% reported using nicotine-containing products; 16% reported exclusive use of nicotine-containing products.

It seems that OP has a savior complex.

Save this, save that, they can be saved. yada yada.....

I'm fairly certain OP is an "all drugs are bad" type and would support another Prohibition.