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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:39:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pat Rogers on people who bring their kit build guns to his courses... "Parts guns Parts ain't parts. If you get your stuff from gun shows and garage sales, don't expect quality I had a guy in a recent class bragging on T1 that he built his carbine for $400 and "it is just as good as..." That feternoon it wouldn't ectract. The extractor was worn snooth and then re park'd; the extractot spring was flat (no joke) and the insert was just crumbs. We replaced it all. On T3 his bolt broke in half." https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/What_Parts_Break_in_a_Carbine_Course_____Thread_summaries_are_on_pages_48_49/118-360169/? 
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:40:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How could I forget? @Ridgerunner9876 @Kuraki @TinSpinner
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:40:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stellite has been the U.S.'s preferred liner material for small arms since WWII. It's a cobalt-chrome alloy that it very hard and erosion-resistant. I believe it is investment-cast (including the rifling), and the outside is ground to provide a repeatable interference fit with the steel portion of the barrel. It has very nearly the same modulus of elasticity and thermal expansion coefficient as a low-alloy steel, such as 4150, making it highly compatible. Stellite is relatively ineffective for use in bigger guns - I have some documents that state molybdenum and tantalum are highly effective in mitigating erosion. Stellite is shrunk-fit in barrels, whereas I believe tantalum is explosively formed to the steel gun tube. The problem with an AR-15 barrel is that you don't really have a lot of wall thickness to work with, especially at the extreme rear, where it is threaded. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:41:42 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So guns aren't a top priority for expensive research and development and giving our soldiers the best? I think the research and development that went into the F-22 Raptor should also go into the firearms and body armor we give our soldiers on the front lines. Time for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, BAE Systems and members of congress to step up the plate for R&D for soldiers too. (GD told me so) |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:43:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup, the Inconel gas tube from V Seven... https://www.vsevenweaponsystems.com/v7-extreme-environment-gas-tube/ Below are comments and reviews from customers in the link above... Quote from one of the reviews in the link above, "This gas tube has seen over 32k rounds and still looks new, besides the discoloration from heat. I've replaced the barrel, a titanium gas block, trigger, a hammer, three hammer springs, a trigger spring, and two BCGs and this inconel tube just keeps this rifle moving. I don't know when, or if I'll need to replace this tube but it will surely be with another V7 extreme environment gas tube. It's probably the best, most reliable part on the rifle. Fantastic part guys/girls! Thank you for making this available to us high round count shooters." Quote: "Imagine if you would........your in a heavy firefight, then the enemies gas tube melts. But yours doesnt because you purchased the Extreeme Environment Gas Tube. MONEY WELL SPENT!" Quote: "This is a must have. I'm an aerospace technologist and inconel is the same material used in the x-wing to break the sound barrier. You want this. If these came standard in the early stages of the Vietnam war there wouldn't have been bad reputations. Have you seen a stainless steel gas tube melt? Well you won't see it ever again with one of these gas tubes 100% I put my life on it. V SEVEN is breaking barriers with all their technologies, very smart people at work here!" And those "reviews" seem a tad shilly.... |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:47:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, ya.. So, how are you going to rifle the tube? And ream the chamber? Ya a hastaloy/inconell barrel would be tits in an overbored cartridge. But how ya going to make it? Once all said and done your going to have a $2K+ barrel, that's before fitting and final install. Out of the realm of most shooters. I've machined both materials in Question and both suck balls. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:49:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone on this thread ever built their own rifles from their own factory with their own materials? Who are the engineers here? Get on webcam or skype and show us your degrees Msc in engineering, minors in mathematics etc. We got a bunch of garage builders here with low IQ's. lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone on this thread ever built their own rifles from their own factory with their own materials? Who are the engineers here? Get on webcam or skype and show us your degrees Msc in engineering, minors in mathematics etc. We got a bunch of garage builders here with low IQ's. lol Quoted:
Now put that through one of Pat Rodgers and Reid Hendrichs courses and see if it can go hard core 5k rounds in 2 days without malfunctioning. There's a reason why the U.S. military didn't ask you to build them rifles.  |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:49:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
$64 carbine length gas tubes. This is why steel gas tubes are still a thing. And those "reviews" seem a tad shilly.... Members on here ask: "I'm looking for a gun for STHF and it needs to function to save my life and my family's life." SME's response: "Use a cheap steal $5 dollar gas tube." |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:50:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone on this thread ever built their own rifles from their own factory with their own materials? Who are the engineers here? Get on webcam or skype and show us your degrees Msc in engineering, minors in mathematics etc. We got a bunch of garage builders here with low IQ's. lol 
I'm so happy this was finally moved to GD. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:51:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are 3 or 4 SME's here who disagree with me and their reasons were "it's not cost effective." But the engineers over at V Seven who make AR 15's disagree with you and the SME's here. Since when has the entire scientific community agreed with 3 SME's here? Do the 3 SME's here represent all engineers globally? Do the SME's here support the DI platform or the short stroke piston platform? Do the SMEs here agree with the U.S. Marines switching over to the more expensive HK M27 IAR or want to keep using the Colt DI ? The owner, engineers and tribologists at Cherry Balmz disagree with the 3 SME's here on proper lubrication for the AR 15 who thought using CLP and oil in a open operating system was the proper way to lubricate a AR 15 DI system... https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/CherryBalmz-vs-SlideGlide/5-2105715/ I notice a trend here. When a company that has a product that was designed by engineers releases it to the public you have 3 SME's here who bad mouth it. SME's here have bad mouthed short stroke piston AR's (HK's, POF's) SME's here bad mouth advanced lubricants engineered by people smarter then them. Which SME's here designed, produced and built their own AR's with their own factory with their own materials? There's a reason why Jim Fuller no longer posts on the AK forums because the garage builder "engineers" thought Rifle Dynamics were too expensive for their $600 AK's. Again, the biggest fear of people here isn't that it's not possible, it's just their fear is the industry might move away from their precious 1960's Colt DI system. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:51:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At long last......the move. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:54:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And what happens when your cheap steel gas tubes malfunctions during a home invasion or during your Walking Dead Zombie Apocalypse "STHF" scenario or when there's a Democrat president that you guys on here always think will happen that you prepare and buy guns for? Members on here ask: "I'm looking for a gun for STHF and it needs to function to save my life and my family's life." SME's response: "Use a cheap steal $5 dollar gas tube." 
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:54:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And what happens when your cheap steel gas tubes malfunctions during a home invasion or during your Walking Dead Zombie Apocalypse "STHF" scenario or when there's a Democrat president that you guys on here always think will happen that you prepare and buy guns for? Members on here ask: "I'm looking for a gun for STHF and it needs to function to save my life and my family's life." SME's response: "Use a cheap steal $5 dollar gas tube." And a "steal" barrel should be free, and not $5, unless it's not really thievery in the first place. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:55:17 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there a possibility to make barrel with multiple layers of different alloys? For example, the inner barrel/rifling is a certain specific compound that is highly wear resistant and the outer layer is Tribaloy or cobalt or inconel that is more heat resistant? |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:57:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And what happens when your cheap steel gas tubes malfunctions during a home invasion or during your Walking Dead Zombie Apocalypse "STHF" paranoid scenario or when there's a Democrat president that you guys on here always think will happen that you prepare and buy guns for? Members on here ask: "I'm looking for a gun for STHF and it needs to function to save my life and my family's life." SME's response: "Use a cheap steal $5 dollar gas tube." Besides, inside the house, a bullet out of an AR15 is pretty wimpy. Not enough range to get up to speed where it's really effective. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:58:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh. Guns are just for fun. My hands are registered with the local PD as deadly weapons. They're all I ever really need. Besides, inside the house, a bullet out of an AR15 is pretty wimpy. Not enough range to get up to speed where it's really effective. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 3:59:11 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think what the military should do is right before they release a new gun to the soldiers is they should send it to Battlefield Las Vegas and let the customers shoot the heck out of it to see how durable it is, use gun ranges with high round counts as a gauge and point of reference. There are testing problems for every new piece of kit the military accepts, and it's far better than letting some goobers shoot a few rounds at a gun range. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:00:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And this is why you are not involved in R&D with the DoD or MoD. There are testing problems for every new piece of kit the military accepts, and it's far better than letting some goobers shoot a few rounds at a gun range. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think what the military should do is right before they release a new gun to the soldiers is they should send it to Battlefield Las Vegas and let the customers shoot the heck out of it to see how durable it is, use gun ranges with high round counts as a gauge and point of reference. There are testing problems for every new piece of kit the military accepts, and it's far better than letting some goobers shoot a few rounds at a gun range. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:00:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm still mad at you for shitting on my idea to make barrels from diamond |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:00:51 PM EDT
[#20]
If you could improve the durability of the AR platform what would you do? Would you focus on barrel? Receiver? BCG? Gas tubes? or?
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:01:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They also run out of ammo. You know what never runs out of ammo? Halberds. I'll take my wakazashi and tanto any day for CQB. I swear the posers around here are aggravating. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:01:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's one idea that OP hasn't thought of yet. It's not my fault manufacturing processes haven't caught up with my genius. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:02:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Halberds are way too unwieldy for home defense. Shows what kind of SME you are. I'll take my wakazashi and tanto any day for CQB. I swear the posers around here are aggravating. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:03:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And this is why you are not involved in R&D with the DoD or MoD. There are testing problems for every new piece of kit the military accepts, and it's far better than letting some goobers shoot a few rounds at a gun range. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:04:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And what happens when your cheap steel gas tubes malfunctions during a home invasion or during your Walking Dead Zombie Apocalypse "STHF" paranoid scenario or when there's a Democrat president that you guys on here always think will happen that you prepare and buy guns for? Members on here ask: "I'm looking for a gun for STHF and it needs to function to save my life and my family's life." SME's response: "Use a cheap steal $5 dollar gas tube." Where the fuck is Norcal, this has to be a retread or burner account. No one can be this retarded. OP had 4 posts in a year before this clusterfuck of a thread. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:06:47 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mini Halberds. Inconel coated mini halberds. It's the future. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:07:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you could improve the durability of the AR platform what would you do? Would you focus on barrel? Receiver? BCG? Gas tubes? or? |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:08:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mini Halberds. Inconel coated mini halberds. It's the future. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:09:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Needs to be coated in Hasteloy or OP ain't buying it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Mini Halberds. Inconel coated mini halberds. It's the future. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:12:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually, according to some "SME's" here, guns used at Battlefield Las Vegas see higher round counts than theater weapons. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: And this is why you are not involved in R&D with the DoD or MoD. There are testing problems for every new piece of kit the military accepts, and it's far better than letting some goobers shoot a few rounds at a gun range. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:12:58 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm still mad at you for shitting on my idea to make barrels from diamond Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How could I forget? @Ridgerunner9876 @Kuraki @TinSpinner 
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:14:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love this place so much. 
@AeroE Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Quite significantly, they’re not rifled.
@AeroE Online Metals will sell a 1.25 inch by 36 inch chunk for $666. Probably going to need at least 100 to work out the process; that is a lot of scrap. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:15:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The "engineers" here still think it's normal practice to only get 100 to 500 rounds of semi-auto fired from their gun and then have to completely lubricate their AR again. Go on, get me a list of their names and universities that provided their engineering degrees. I'll wait. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:16:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And what happens when your cheap steel gas tubes malfunctions during a home invasion or during your Walking Dead Zombie Apocalypse "STHF" paranoid scenario or when there's a Democrat president that you guys on here always think will happen that you prepare and buy guns for? Members on here ask: "I'm looking for a gun for STHF and it needs to function to save my life and my family's life." SME's response: "Use a cheap steal $5 dollar gas tube." That's that's 25 pounds of magazines, for gods sake.... |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:17:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you could improve the durability of the AR platform what would you do? Would you focus on barrel? Receiver? BCG? Gas tubes? or? |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:17:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think HKPOF should get on the phone with Sunnen in St. Louis, then submit a request for quote for a deep hole boring machine and rifling machine for exotic alloys. They could start with Inconel 718, that is a material with machining requirements that are well understood. Online Metals will sell a 1.25 inch by 36 inch chunk for $666. Probably going to need at least 100 to work out the process; that is a lot of scrap. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Quite significantly, they’re not rifled.
@AeroE Online Metals will sell a 1.25 inch by 36 inch chunk for $666. Probably going to need at least 100 to work out the process; that is a lot of scrap. 
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:18:51 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh hold on. We just need the right engineer to figure it out. Engineers know everything. You’re not an engineer so you’re just dumb.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Mass produced for customers. It's been subjected to corrosive environments. Workable. High heat applicable. HKPOF, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational answer to the question. Everyone reading this thread is now dumber for having read it. You have no clue to what the requirements for a rifle barrel are, and may God have mercy on your soul. In this case we have a person that doesn't know the requirements, characteristics, or function of the machinery he want to Revolutionalize. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:20:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone on this thread ever built their own rifles from their own factory with their own materials? Who are the engineers here? Get on webcam or skype and show us your degrees Msc in engineering, minors in mathematics etc. We got a bunch of garage builders here with low IQ's. lol 
Another - 
Another - 
Another - 
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:21:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@BURN @Fat_McNasty @badkarmaii @40xb @RictusGrin Hey come look at this. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:24:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lets just say hypothetically that the U.S. Dept of Defense wanted to create a barrel for AR 15s out of Hastelloy, even just a one off experiment, would that barrel made out of that material be effective in durability, strength, heat resistance for fully auto fire? Would it be able to withstand the abuse everyday at Battlefield Las Vegas for over 100,000 rounds on a single barrel? The main area where the types of barrel alloys you're talking about come into play are on belt-fed weapons, including the ones on aircraft and vehicles. Barrel replacement is more of a very long-term consideration for individual weapons that happens at a rate that exceeds multiple enlistments for single term Soldiers and Marines in most units. In the SOF side, that barrel replacement interval compresses down sometimes even to weeks, so the market for this type of technology is pretty small, but may have interest from that side of the house. We've already been doing Stellite liners in M60 barrels, and as already mentioned in the thread, there are intense studies that were done in the 1950s on machine-gun barrels. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:27:11 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And it’s still not rifled. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quite significantly, they’re not rifled.
@AeroE Online Metals will sell a 1.25 inch by 36 inch chunk for $666. Probably going to need at least 100 to work out the process; that is a lot of scrap. Online Metals will sell a 8 foot long piece, but I don't want to carry that. Heck, I don't want to carry a 3 foot length. Whoever made the last post before the thread was moved should edit and add a marker so we can see where the AR Discussions moderator decided to be mean. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:27:42 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This requires mathematicians/statisticians to analyze all of it.  and your assumption is they don't do this? And that in the history of manufacturing and product development you're the first to think of it?
What are you? 10? |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:27:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Engineers can't read minds. They can do about everything else but that, including scoring with hot wimmenz. In this case we have a person that doesn't know the requirements, characteristics, or function of the machinery he want to Revolutionalize.
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:33:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course they do. Most people's daily drivers see more miles in a year than most NASCAR racecars see in a lifetime, does that mean we should take take base model Toyota Corolla tech and implement it in racing engine? I mean, why not have a commuter car that needs to have its engine rebuilt every 1000 miles. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:40:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And to and extent - vice versa. I mean, why not have a commuter car that needs to have its engine rebuilt every 1000 miles. 
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:42:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aren't those just called Alfas? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And to and extent - vice versa. I mean, why not have a commuter car that needs to have its engine rebuilt every 1000 miles. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:46:47 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are 3 or 4 SME's here who disagree with me and their reasons were "it's not cost effective." Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are 3 or 4 SME's here who disagree with me and their reasons were "it's not cost effective." But the engineers over at V Seven who make AR 15's disagree with you and the SME's here. Gas tubes can melt, but it takes an incredible amount of effort (100s of rounds of full-auto fire in a short time). Oh and those gas tubes are crappy after market gas tubes. When the DoD did it's study on "M4 barrels bursting after sustained full-auto" you know what they found? Gas tubes were not melting, the damn barrels were drooping due to heat of sustained fire which caused the round to exit the barrel in a new location. In other words if you buy proper TDP gas tubs they don't melt - you'll kill the barrel first. But hey some guy wants to sell you an expensive solution to a non problem because *it's better* A fool and his money. Do the 3 SME's here represent all engineers globally? SME's here bad mouth advanced lubricants engineered by people smarter then them. In God we trust, all other must provide data. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:48:46 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: [snip] Whoever made the last post before the thread was moved should edit and add a marker so we can see where the AR Discussions moderator decided to |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:50:45 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And to and extent - vice versa. I mean, why not have a commuter car that needs to have its engine rebuilt every 1000 miles. |
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Posted: 11/7/2019 4:51:35 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We don't use M4s in Full Auto as a general rule, primarily because of the limited soldier's load and the reduced hit rate from automatic fire as opposed to semi auto. The main area where the types of barrel alloys you're talking about come into play are on belt-fed weapons, including the ones on aircraft and vehicles. Barrel replacement is more of a very long-term consideration for individual weapons that happens at a rate that exceeds multiple enlistments for single term Soldiers and Marines in most units. In the SOF side, that barrel replacement interval compresses down sometimes even to weeks, so the market for this type of technology is pretty small, but may have interest from that side of the house. We've already been doing Stellite liners in M60 barrels, and as already mentioned in the thread, there are intense studies that were done in the 1950s on machine-gun barrels. |
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