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Link Posted: 12/27/2012 8:04:52 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Maybe you should worry more about that border war you guys in Tejas are losing with Mexico before you worry about Cali and NY.


Are you perhaps referring to the border war that the feds won't fight and sue the states when they do?  


That's the one.

Link Posted: 12/27/2012 8:09:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:

snip


As far as the military goes....Where are they going to come from?

snip

I'm just pointing out why door to door confiscation cannot physically happen.



UN peacekeepers could be brought in to implement the confiscations. Troops from the Congo, France, Belgium, Germany, China, Russia etc etc etc could be tasked with going door to door and searching every home for contraband weapons.

It will never come to that but if it did I'd find out where the Belgian units were and pay a visit. I want me a para SAW  


The UN? Are you serious? I've worked with and trained the UN.

It would be pebbles at the surf, and the first UN troops would be the same kind of Information Operations disaster than the use of Hessians was.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 8:16:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

snip


As far as the military goes....Where are they going to come from?

snip

I'm just pointing out why door to door confiscation cannot physically happen.



UN peacekeepers could be brought in to implement the confiscations. Troops from the Congo, France, Belgium, Germany, China, Russia etc etc etc could be tasked with going door to door and searching every home for contraband weapons.

It will never come to that but if it did I'd find out where the Belgian units were and pay a visit. I want me a para SAW  


The UN? Are you serious? I've worked with and trained the UN.

It would be pebbles at the surf, and the first UN troops would be the same kind of Information Operations disaster than the use of Hessians was.


Yup...I've worked with the UN before too....fuckin disaster. They're about useless.
They'd turn and insurrection in a full on war.
Nothing like bringing foreign soldiers in to confiscate weapons from law abiding citizens to inflame the situation.
That would a text book example of pouring gasoline onto a fire...
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:00:47 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

snip


As far as the military goes....Where are they going to come from?

snip

I'm just pointing out why door to door confiscation cannot physically happen.



UN peacekeepers could be brought in to implement the confiscations. Troops from the Congo, France, Belgium, Germany, China, Russia etc etc etc could be tasked with going door to door and searching every home for contraband weapons.

It will never come to that but if it did I'd find out where the Belgian units were and pay a visit. I want me a para SAW  


The UN? Are you serious? I've worked with and trained the UN.

It would be pebbles at the surf, and the first UN troops would be the same kind of Information Operations disaster than the use of Hessians was.


Yup...I've worked with the UN before too....fuckin disaster. They're about useless.
They'd turn and insurrection in a full on war.
Nothing like bringing foreign soldiers in to confiscate weapons from law abiding citizens to inflame the situation.
That would a text book example of pouring gasoline onto a fire...


That would get ugly really quick.....
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:21:56 AM EDT
[#5]
On the bonus side of things...

If that did happen, after everything was said and done,  pretty sure the UN's headquarters would go someplace else....

So we'd have that to look forward to at least....
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:27:48 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
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If the NYPD gets involved the bystander body counts will be horrific.


I could only imagine how much hell would be unleashed by the populace on the "enforcers".  It would make Iraq look like kids play.  

not to mention if that started happening how much infrastructure would start magically shutting down.....entire power grids, water, sewage, trash control, communications, flights, you name it.  NYC would be a jungle in about ten minutes

it would be ugly very quick



You over estimate our power! I'm going to pull a number out of my ass 99.99% of NYers will comply because law abiding citizens do that


You mean act like sheep...........Yeah O.K.........
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:31:26 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yea alot of them will come down with terminal case of lead poisoning

Free


Really? You would forfeit your retirement and murder cops over a hobby? You would die from lethal injection, see your wife made penniless, see your children shamed?

Isn't advocating cop killing on this board a permaban offense?


It's not a hobby its a constitutional right..........
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:34:56 AM EDT
[#8]
Attempts at confiscation will end very, very badly.
Think "low intensity conflict" bad.
Think real, true domestic terrorism bad.
Think lots of dead citizens, leos and federal agents bad.

I'm pretty sure there are whispers in Mr. Obama's ears saying things very like that on a daily basis.

It doesn't take a whole bunch of really dedicated individuals to destabilize an advanced societal infrastructure.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:40:18 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:

It doesn't take a whole bunch of really dedicated individuals to destabilize an advanced societal infrastructure.


Liddy once observed that there were 5 primary choke points holding the entire thing together. Hopefully they're shielded better from attack at present day than when he made that observation.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:50:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Interesting choice of words...

Bloomberg is a long-time gun advocate who started “Mayors Against Guns,” which now has more than 700 members. He has been lobbying for:
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:51:11 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the NYPD gets involved the bystander body counts will be horrific.


I could only imagine how much hell would be unleashed by the populace on the "enforcers".  It would make Iraq look like kids play.  

not to mention if that started happening how much infrastructure would start magically shutting down.....entire power grids, water, sewage, trash control, communications, flights, you name it.  NYC would be a jungle in about ten minutes

it would be ugly very quick



You over estimate our power! I'm going to pull a number out of my ass 99.99% of NYers will comply because law abiding citizens do that


You mean act like sheep...........Yeah O.K.........


In NY that makes perfect sense.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:52:27 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
On the bonus side of things...

If that did happen, after everything was said and done,  pretty sure the UN's headquarters would go someplace else....

So we'd have that to look forward to at least....


As much as a soup sandwich the UN is, we generally get more from it than it costs to maintain, and the fact its on our soil gives us a subtle influence that wouldn't be easily replicated.

At the end of the day, the correct answer for gun owners is to get the 200k of us it would take to move to OH and FL, and block vote, and we could damn near influence national politics to include the issuance of a Sten gun to every registered voter.

If we want influence in national politics to ensure our rights are respected, that is the short answer, gentlemen.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:54:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
It doesn't take a whole bunch of really dedicated individuals to destabilize an advanced societal infrastructure.



This is fact. Its a minor miracle that EF! or ALF hasn't been able to figure out how.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 10:12:20 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't take a whole bunch of really dedicated individuals to destabilize an advanced societal infrastructure.



This is fact. Its a minor miracle that EF! or ALF hasn't been able to figure out how.


This has surprised me for years

I am pretty thankful they haven't though.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 10:21:43 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't take a whole bunch of really dedicated individuals to destabilize an advanced societal infrastructure.



This is fact. Its a minor miracle that EF! or ALF hasn't been able to figure out how.


This has surprised me for years

I am pretty thankful they haven't though.


As I said in another thread, I imagine they'll eventually go Baader Meinhoff and attempt the targeted assassination of industrialists route.

I don't think they have the educational or intellectual bench to really attack the infrastructure.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 10:31:45 AM EDT
[#16]
This again, huh?

If, if the order ever came down, it would be followed. Certainly not by everyone, but it would be followed.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 10:44:08 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
This again, huh?

If, if the order ever came down, it would be followed. Certainly not by everyone, but it would be followed.


I guess you havent read all the way to page 9 yet.....

Quoted:
There have been a number of cops on this thread, (including myself on page 1) who stated confiscation would not happen.
Since the vast majority of you seem to thing we're either full of shit, or the minority with regards to LE....

Let me use some simple math. Its got to be simple math, because I'm going to be using it, and I'm not a mathematician, or a rocket surgeon.

According to some fast internet searching, (with no claims to the authenticity of the information):

As of 2006 there were approximately 800,000 full time LE in the US. This number includes state, city, university and college, metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, and other law enforcement officers, as well as Federal LE.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_police_officers_are_employed_in_the_United_states
I dont know what the current number of full time LE is in the US. But, since the economy has gone to shit, and the vast majority of agencies have been downsizing or cutting through attrition, I would estimate that number to be lower. But for sake of argument, we'll stick with the 800K number.

According to the ATF, in 1999 there were approximately 215 million privately owned firearms in the US. The NRA estimates approximately half of the homes in the US have firearms. Rough estimates from the link have aproximately 70-80 million gun owners in the US at the time of the link being answered, (which near as I can tell was in June/July of 2004 when the US population was approximately 294 million.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gun_owners_are_there_in_the_US

As of July 2011, there were 311.5919 million living in the US.
Mouse over the graph and population and date will pop up.
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=kf7tgg1uo9ude_&met_y=population&idim=country:US&dl=en&hl=en&q=us%20population

Using the NRA estimates of 50% of the population owning firearms and the 2011 information that gives us 155.79579 million gun owners in the US in 2011.

But for sake of argument, lets use the 2004 numbers from the 2nd link and split the difference between the two.

75 million gun owners divided by 800 thousand cops in the US = 93.75

So basically, ALL of the full time cops in the US are outnumbered by gun owners damn near 100 to 1.

So if door to door gun confiscation is ordered at the highest levels, and ALL of the full time cops in the US carry out those orders, if 94% of the gun owners voluntarily surrunder their weapons, without a fight....the cops will have an even one to one fight with those who resist.

That's if ALL of the cops agree to do so, and only 6% of the gun onwers in the US resist.

I'd bet money, ALOT of money, that the actual numbers of gun owners has increased, and the number of full time police have decreased since that information I linked up was posted.

I'd also bet my children's inheritance that no where near 100% of all of the full time cops in the US would carry out those orders. Every cop I've seen post on this thread has stated they wouldnt and either stated they know or know for fact and havent stated it (like me) that at least half of their department would refuse such orders as being Unconstitutional.

Despite GD's thoughts otherwise....most cops arent stupid.
We know what's Unconstitutional, and we dont feel like dying needlessly for stupid people.

Assuming ALL of the fulltime LE officers in the US went door to door confiscating firearms.....

I'd bet the first week would go fairly easily.
Then the internet forums would explode and the word would get out and videos of the confiscations taking place would make it online.
The second week, you'd start to see resistance. There would deaths on both sides. This would completely inflame gun owners and would definately shake the determination of the rank and file cops who are dying in an attempt to confiscate firearms. You would begin to see resignations and desertions from the ranks.
The third week, the body counts would be so high on the LE side of things, you wouldnt have enough officers left to make a serious effort at confiscation. Those that tried would die. Everyone else would quit.
There would not be a fourth week of confiscation.

So if you refuse to believe the LEO's on the site here who have stated there would be no confiscation because it's Unconstitutional and they would refuse...

Look at the simple math....

It doesnt matter if we were lying about it when we ALL said we wouldnt confiscate guns. We simply dont have the manpower to go door to door to confiscate your guns. We'd lose.
Period.

That's the God's honest truth folks.....it really is that simple.


Link Posted: 12/27/2012 10:48:21 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:

Quoted:
For the most part Law Enforcement is on the side of lawful gun owners, its places like this that sour a lot of cops.
Sure those wacky police unions that ALWAYS support more gun control don't reflect the majority of their member's wishes. Do these gun grabbers that always speak for the police unions stuff the ballot box or something?


They have a way of calling a "board meeting" and deciding all on there own. The last time that happened (94) the president of the local got called out and informed my a VERY large SWAT officer that it would behoove said board to put it to a vote of the membership. Well they did and it shut them up within hours, 80+% of the membership voted and 90% against the position. With most of the remainder stating that they shouldn't even take a position. Now keep in mind that this was a local/state thing, not the national office. But the issue almost unwound the entire organization at the state level. I currently don't know if they have even made a statement after Sandy Hook. But the web site has no mention of one, I think they learned their lesson from last time.

Jim
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 10:51:15 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
This again, huh?

If, if the order ever came down, it would be followed. Certainly not by everyone, but it would be followed.


MaxxII wrote: I guess you havent read all the way to page 9 yet.....





No, I didn't.

I am not looking to pick a fight or to write anything disrespectful to any LEOs out there. I myself am an APO.

No one disputes the math. No one.

Human nature has not changed since New Orleans had that storm pass through it a few years back. The math was against them too but they stilll confiscated firearms on the road, on the water, and from private homes.

If ordered to do so, it will happen again.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 11:02:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
For the most part Law Enforcement is on the side of lawful gun owners, its places like this that sour a lot of cops.
Sure those wacky police unions that ALWAYS support more gun control don't reflect the majority of their member's wishes. Do these gun grabbers that always speak for the police unions stuff the ballot box or something?


They have a way of calling a "board meeting" and deciding all on there own. The last time that happened (94) the president of the local got called out and informed my a VERY large SWAT officer that it would behoove said board to put it to a vote of the membership. Well they did and it shut them up within hours, 80+% of the membership voted and 90% against the position. With most of the remainder stating that they shouldn't even take a position. Now keep in mind that this was a local/state thing, not the national office. But the issue almost unwound the entire organization at the state level. I currently don't know if they have even made a statement after Sandy Hook. But the web site has no mention of one, I think they learned their lesson from last time.

Jim


As an Ohio cop, do you have any insight into why our Highway Patrol was always opposed to the CHL?  Do you know if this was "rank and file", or just the idiots at the top?

Since the law was passed, I've been pulled over a few times for minor traffic infractions.  Sometimes I had a gun in the car, sometimes I didn't.  Every time I turned on the lights, rolled down the windows, kept my hands on the wheel and immediately informed them of my armed / unarmed status (they know you have a CHL when they run your tags).  Every time I was treated well, and most of the time I've just gotten warnings.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 11:06:08 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:

Quoted:
I know a few local leo hoping they get to confiscate.  They assume they will get to keep what they take.

seriously? that would be a special kind of moron.  


We had some do exactly that to homeowners in St. Tammany Parish after Katrina.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 11:16:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
It's tough for both sides. Police won't want to enforce this, but if people resist, then they will be labeled domestic terrorists. Then the hammer will come down on all terrorists, foreign and domestic.


This.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 11:25:39 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

snip


As far as the military goes....Where are they going to come from?

snip

I'm just pointing out why door to door confiscation cannot physically happen.



UN peacekeepers could be brought in to implement the confiscations. Troops from the Congo, France, Belgium, Germany, China, Russia etc etc etc could be tasked with going door to door and searching every home for contraband weapons.

It will never come to that but if it did I'd find out where the Belgian units were and pay a visit. I want me a para SAW  


The UN? Are you serious? I've worked with and trained the UN.

It would be pebbles at the surf, and the first UN troops would be the same kind of Information Operations disaster than the use of Hessians was.


It is easier for the armchair commandos to envision shooting brown people in blue helmets. You know, people that don't look like your friends and neighbors.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 11:30:11 AM EDT
[#24]
I see that there will be no sale or transfer in the proposals.    Is that what is being pointed to as confiscation?

Hints of no grandfathering but no solid stuff.

CA prohibits sale or transfer to anyone in state except for licensed AW dealer.   Can remove or sell out of state.   I consider this "a taking" of some value and one where I will receive no compensation, so I believe my stuff has already been confiscated in part.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 11:38:51 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Never, not a single one.  Totally unconstitutional.


Hard to find any information but do you remember what had to be done with AWs when Washington D.C. implemented their ban?   There was no grandfathering so what was there was illegal and had to be dealt with somehow.  It's why Gregory was known to be a scofflaw (if it was real) for sure.

Thanks.

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