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Posted: 8/19/2020 6:26:32 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Japan was already on terms to surrender. We basically just wanted to use our new toys and so after two drops, were satisfied and so we accepted. Historical revisionism. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 6:32:22 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Historical revisionism. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Japan was already on terms to surrender. We basically just wanted to use our new toys and so after two drops, were satisfied and so we accepted. Historical revisionism. Yup. But for what purpose..................hmmm............. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 6:37:13 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bingo. Plus without them we probably would have fought an incredibly bloody war with the Soviet Union. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don’t understand the hand wringing over nuclear weapons. Someone was going to develop them, it is just physics and how the universe is made. If Oppenheimer didn’t do it someone else would’ve. I’m damn glad we were first. Bingo. Plus without them we probably would have fought an incredibly bloody war with the Soviet Union. Meh. Lend-lease would have ended and we would have stopped sending truck parts. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 6:43:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Never heard his voice before.
Anyone else think his tone and cadence is eerily similar to Mr. Rogers? |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:02:37 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes let's nuke ourselves. Fantastic idea. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Back when Men took care of business. Now it is soyboys fighting fighting restrained police. Maybe we should Oppenheimer a city or two and take our country back. Jm2c Yes let's nuke ourselves. Fantastic idea. We must destroy the city to save the city. I mean, those bastards are tearing down statues and spraying graffiti in buildings! I bet they wouldn't be able to do that crap if the buildings and statues were all disintegrated, would they? Hah, smarty pants? And, besides, what about all the businesses in those areas with the protests? And people who live there? They need to be liberated? That would liberate the shit out of them. Liberate them from this life. It's what's best. We mustn't let the Left gain any more influence. I mean, who knows what crazy things they might do if they had any more power. So, nuking cities it is. Nuking cities it must be. Nuke it all. It's the only way to save our Republic. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:10:37 AM EDT
[#6]
...delete
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:10:56 AM EDT
[#7]
The Japanese today should thank us for having the balls to drop those bombs.
Japan would not exist today had they not been nuked. Weird as that sounds those bombs saved their asses. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:12:52 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a myth. Man doesn't have the power to render humans extinct. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:13:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Historical revisionism. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Japan was already on terms to surrender. We basically just wanted to use our new toys and so after two drops, were satisfied and so we accepted. Historical revisionism. This^^ |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:14:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never heard his voice before. Anyone else think his tone and cadence is eerily similar to Mr. Rogers? Yup. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:15:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Didn’t Fermi have a large hand in this including the first nuclear reactor?
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:27:17 AM EDT
[#12]
It was inevitable that someone would eventually create the bomb. It was far better that it was us than anyone else/ If the Germans had created and used it whoever the victim was would have become a German territory. Same for the Japanese, Italians or Russia. We did and Japan, Germany and Italy got to keep their countries.
The world should be thankful a country with restraint developed it instead of one with imperial designs. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:29:55 AM EDT
[#13]
Doubts about Oppenheimer's loyalty dated back to the 1930s, when he was a member of numerous Communist front organizations, and was associated with Communist Party USA members, including his wife and his brother. Oppenheimer was compromised by the Soviets that's why he was banned from the Hydrogen bomb development. He has a Communist spy girlfriend Jean Frances Tatlock that he lied to the FBI about. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 7:31:13 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oppenheimer was compromised by the Soviets that's why he was banned from the Hydrogen bomb development. He has a Communist spy girlfriend Jean Frances Tatlock that he lied to the FBI about. Some wanted his security clearances revoked. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:03:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. But for what purpose..................hmmm............. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Japan was already on terms to surrender. We basically just wanted to use our new toys and so after two drops, were satisfied and so we accepted. Historical revisionism. Yup. But for what purpose..................hmmm............. I'm glad I was beat on this one. The fact that they weren't ready to surrender until the second one got dropped is enough proof that it was warranted. The American, Filipino, Singaporean, Korean and Chinese people weren't going to be satisfied with anything less than complete surrender from the Japanese. Is there any merit to the talk of dropping the bomb to send a message to the Soviets and the rest of the world? I'm sure, but that's just a sideshow to the message that was being sent to Japan. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:06:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Historical revisionism. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Japan was already on terms to surrender. We basically just wanted to use our new toys and so after two drops, were satisfied and so we accepted. Historical revisionism. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:18:22 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm glad I was beat on this one. The fact that they weren't ready to surrender until the second one got dropped is enough proof that it was warranted. The American, Filipino, Singaporean, Korean and Chinese people weren't going to be satisfied with anything less than complete surrender from the Japanese. Is there any merit to the talk of dropping the bomb to send a message to the Soviets and the rest of the world? I'm sure, but that's just a sideshow to the message that was being sent to Japan. Good point on the "needed two bombs". Now my memory is not what it used to be but I swear I heard Truman live on TV in the 60's answer the question about why he didn't accept Japan's initial offer(s) of a ceasefire/surrender and his answer was simply, in so many words, "we didn't trust them". Now my memory might be playing tricks on me but his answer was that succinct IIRC. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:23:28 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In real time, soldiers stationed in the Pacific almost all assumed if they invaded Japan hundreds of thousands of them would die. That was the general consensus. My father and the other men he served with there thought the same. He absolutely credited his surviving the war to Truman's decision. Not Oppenheimer. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:31:41 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good point on the "needed two bombs". Now my memory is not what it used to be but I swear I heard Truman live on TV in the 60's answer the question about why he didn't accept Japan's initial offer(s) of a ceasefire/surrender and his answer was simply, in so many words, "we didn't trust them". Now my memory might be playing tricks on me but his answer was that succinct IIRC. The japanese generals weren't willing to call it quits after the first one. Complete surrender would mean giving up their power. They would sacrifice many more to maintain that. When the second was dropped, everyone told the generals to stfu and get out of the way. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:34:57 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A bargain at twice the price. My granddad was on a boat heading towards Japan when the surrender was signed, ended up being part of the occupying force afterwards My dad too. He also was with one of the first ground forces through Nagasaki. He ended up in Korea repatriating Japanese soldiers from the Seoul area. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:39:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The japanese generals weren't willing to call it quits after the first one. Complete surrender would mean giving up their power. They would sacrifice many more to maintain that. When the second was dropped, everyone told the generals to stfu and get out of the way. That must have been the kind of thing Truman was alluding to when I saw him answer the question I posted above.........he just didn't trust that "their offered surrender" would really be a "surrender". He must have felt that the hammer had to fall in order to make them really come to the table. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:46:46 AM EDT
[#22]
"They drew first blood."
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Posted: 8/19/2020 8:56:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That must have been the kind of thing Truman was alluding to when I saw him answer the question I posted above.........he just didn't trust that "their offered surrender" would really be a "surrender". He must have felt that the hammer had to fall in order to make them really come to the table. They were proposing a surrender on their terms. That was unacceptable. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:02:58 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/254303/Dinner-and-a-Movie-Crimson-Tide-on-the-m-1552596.JPG You do qualify your remarks. If someone asked me if we should bomb Japan, a simple "Yes." By all means sir, drop that fucker, twice! I don't mean to suggest that you're indecisive, Mr Hunter. Not at all. Just, uh... complicated. 'course, that's the way the Navy wants you. Me, they wanted simple Movie that started out half decent... half. And then became a comical shit-fest of epic proportions. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:04:05 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were proposing a surrender on their terms. That was unacceptable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That must have been the kind of thing Truman was alluding to when I saw him answer the question I posted above.........he just didn't trust that "their offered surrender" would really be a "surrender". He must have felt that the hammer had to fall in order to make them really come to the table. They were proposing a surrender on their terms. That was unacceptable. Yup, that must have been it.......Truman alluded as much when I saw him on TV IIRC. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:06:24 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some wanted his security clearances revoked. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oppenheimer was compromised by the Soviets that's why he was banned from the Hydrogen bomb development. He has a Communist spy girlfriend Jean Frances Tatlock that he lied to the FBI about. Some wanted his security clearances revoked. Well, as it turns out the Soviets did indeed have Manhattan thoroughly penetrated..... |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:06:44 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. But for what purpose..................hmmm............. Hmmmmm yes must be satanic commie liberals. I’m sorry you haven’t studied history very much but that doesn’t change anything. My grandfather was an *actual* Corpsman who *FOUGHT* and was wounded on Iwo and Okinawa. He’s the reason my first enlistment and first three combat deployments were as a Marine. And a lot of the Marines with him felt the same as your dad did. What the common perception was and what was actually going on aren’t always the same. In fact there’s few times that they are. That’s not revisionism, that’s just understanding history and human nature. The Japanese didn’t surrender for weeks after both bombs. They’d been losing territory everywhere for months so they were already losing the war. It was inevitable. Even Nimitz, LeMay, Eisenhower, MacArthur and Truman’s JCoS knew the war was militarily going to be over in weeks without using the bomb. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:07:26 AM EDT
[#28]
Oppenheimer and everyone close to him were card carrying communists. His crocodile tears are delicious.
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:08:31 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Plunged the world into the nuclear age. For the first time, man gained the power to destroy mankind. Probably not a good thing, on the whole. However, that cat was never going to stay in the bag. Someone was going to discover it, and use it. I'm glad it was us. I sometimes wonder on what date there were enough nuclear weapons on Earth to render humans extinct. Was it on completion of the 50th bomb? 100th? 1,000th? Hard to know for sure, as it would depend on where they were deployed. Exactly. It's not as if he was the only scientist on its trail. Russia got theirs going very shortly after us. Some espionage involved but its physics. Someone would have figured it out. I also think the Japanese earned it. Deeply and without question. Japanese brutality was without equal in that war. Fuck every bit of sending men into that meat grinder to take Tokyo. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:10:42 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some wanted his security clearances revoked. His clearance was revoked. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:14:41 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb13ynu3IacNext to Truman who actually authorized not one but two atom bomb drops Oppenheimers face says it all Win but was the cost worth it? Considering the pentagon concluded their use actually saved lives on both sides vs a long drawn out ground conflict. Yes. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:18:31 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmmmmm yes must be satanic commie liberals. I’m sorry you haven’t studied history very much but that doesn’t change anything. My grandfather was an *actual* Corpsman who *FOUGHT* and was wounded on Iwo and Okinawa. He’s the reason my first enlistment and first three combat deployments were as a Marine. And a lot of the Marines with him felt the same as your dad did. What the common perception was and what was actually going on aren’t always the same. In fact there’s few times that they are. That’s not revisionism, that’s just understanding history and human nature. The Japanese didn’t surrender for weeks after both bombs. They’d been losing territory everywhere for months so they were already losing the war. It was inevitable. Even Nimitz, LeMay, Eisenhower, MacArthur and Truman’s JCoS knew the war was militarily going to be over in weeks without using the bomb. What are you talking about.......Japan announced they surrendered one week after the bomb on Nagasaki was dropped for god's sake. As to whether the bomb saved lives.........we'll just have to agree to disagree. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:20:32 AM EDT
[#33]
As Matthew Quigley put it, "For sure and for certain".
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:22:41 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In real time, soldiers stationed in the Pacific almost all assumed if they invaded Japan hundreds of thousands of them would die. That was the general consensus. My father was one of them and he told me more than once "if we had invaded Japan I believed my luck would have run out" (he fought for over 2 years in the Pacific by then and survived). My father told me more than once that this "was the general consensus of the troops throughout the Pacific Theater". So the actual soldiers who were there and FOUGHT disagreed adamantly with you (and I assume they adamantly would disagree with the liberal professors that have espoused this alternate reality theory since then). The general consensus back then, viewed by the soldiers also, was that Japan was not trustworthy and lied too many times over the years, much like we view China today. So, their talk of surrender was just that "talk" and viewed as disingenuous and not to be taken seriously in terms of the surrender really being a "serious" surrender. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This. I always love these "everything you know is wrong" deals. Unconditional Surrender was not just to be seen as tough. People were weary of sending their kids to be turned into hamburger. The Japanese also directly and very publicly attacked US soil. Of all the axis powers that was the one the president had the least political leeway to be negotiating with which was an odd position to be in. Of course the droppings were to send a message. It was a major bluff. We needed them to think we could drop more tomorrow. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:27:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This. I always love these "everything you know is wrong" deals. Unconditional Surrender was not just to be seen as tough. People were weary of sending their kids to be turned into hamburger. The Japanese also directly and very publicly attacked US soil. Of all the axis powers that was the one the president had the least political leeway to be negotiating with which was an odd position to be in. Of course the droppings were to send a message. It was a major bluff. We needed them to think we could drop more tomorrow. Good points. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:37:08 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They didn’t really spare hundreds of thousands or millions of Americans from a mainland invasion though. That’s one of those things that’s just been repeated for so long we accept it as fact. So you really think that the Japanese Army (which was actually running the country) would have surrendered without an invasion of the home islands?  AND you think the Soviets wouldn't have invaded Japan anyway? |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:43:57 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What are you talking about.......Japan announced they surrendered one week after the bomb on Nagasaki was dropped for god's sake. As to whether the bomb saved lives.........we'll just have to agree to disagree. We don’t disagree that much, of course American lives would have been lost in a mainland invasion. Anything to prevent that loss of life was worth it. We dropped two bombs in four days. If it was capitulation because of the atomic bomb, wouldn’t they have surrendered on 6th? Certainly on the 9th after the second bomb. But they didn’t because they were still trying to negotiate a surrender, as they had for months, that would let them keep the emperor. Understand that means for months Japan was trying to surrender, so for months it was known that a mainland campaign was not going to be necessary. Japan didn’t surrender on the 9th, and even when the emperor made the radio announcement on the 15th he refused to use the word surrender. His military leadership were demanding he announce a formal surrender, as they were being annihilated. Surrender didn’t come until September 2nd. That’s weeks. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:44:54 AM EDT
[#38]
Just finished reading Richard B. Frank's book "Downfall The End of The Imperal Japanese Empire". Great Book
1. The Japanese leaders were looking for one great battle to bloody the Allies so much they would sue for peace with out unconditional surrender. They thought the invasion of the homeland would provide this as they reinforced the souther island of Kyushu. Sight of our 1st planned invasion. 2. We we were reading their coded diplomatic communications. They were not serious about surrender until the 2nd bomb. 3. As the USSR invaded Manchuria the initial reports to the leadership was told the invasion was not large and they were holding their own. All incorrect, but thats what the leadership was told and believed. 4. Even after the Emporer conceded to surrender the millitary still tried to stage a coup. It failed and it is still unclear if it had the support of the head of the Army, but his Chief of Staff was involved. 5. If the Blockage and Bomb campain had continued far more people would have died. This would have include all the POW's held by the Japanese, hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, hundreds of thousands of civilians in China, Korea and Manchuria. The next step in the bombing campain was to target all rail lines in japan. This would have ment no ditribution of food. Mass starvation. These are just a few highlights from the book. To all the revisionest the best way to end the war was the fastest. Dropping the bombs was the fastest and least costly. And yes my Father was in advanced Infrantry training for the Invasion of Japan when the bombs were dropped. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:50:16 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you really think that the Japanese Army (which was actually running the country) would have surrendered without an invasion of the home islands? AND you think the Soviets wouldn't have invaded Japan anyway? What? No. That’s the opposite of what I’m saying. We knew it was going to happen. We also knew it wasn’t going to be Americans invading. The bombs ultimately did little to change the outcome of the war with Japan. They were instrumental in our ability to redraw territorial lines in Europe and Asia as THE king dick superpower. I’m not even against the bomb or the use of the two bombs in Japan. It’s just a complex issue. It’s not “bombs go boom and we winners now!” That’s all I’m saying. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:54:44 AM EDT
[#40]
I saw that when Oppenheimer shared his recriminations with Truman, Truman reassured him that it was OK and after he left told his staff that he never wanted "that SOB" back in the White House. He didn't like the fact that Oppenheimer was having second thoughts about saving hundreds of thousands of American soldier's lives and lost any respect that he had for Oppenheimer.
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:54:59 AM EDT
[#41]
@TacticalGarand44
Quote HistoryPewPewPew1212: Japan was already on terms to surrender. We basically just wanted to use our new toys and so after two drops, were satisfied and so we accepted. TacticalGarand44: Historical revisionism. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:55:18 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We don’t disagree that much, of course American lives would have been lost in a mainland invasion. Anything to prevent that loss of life was worth it. We dropped two bombs in four days. If it was capitulation because of the atomic bomb, wouldn’t they have surrendered on 6th? Certainly on the 9th after the second bomb. But they didn’t because they were still trying to negotiate a surrender, as they had for months, that would let them keep the emperor. Understand that means for months Japan was trying to surrender, so for months it was known that a mainland campaign was not going to be necessary. Japan didn’t surrender on the 9th, and even when the emperor made the radio announcement on the 15th he refused to use the word surrender. His military leadership were demanding he announce a formal surrender, as they were being annihilated. Surrender didn’t come until September 2nd. That’s weeks. Fair enough but the fighting stopped one week later. There were outliers who didn't know the war was over but the vast majority of the fighting stopped once Japan announced its intent to sign a full concession surrender agreement. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:58:45 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We should have dropped 200 more IMO. The Japanese earned it. A 96 year old woman I work with feels the same way. She met her husband during the war, both overseas. Sweetest person you could ever want to meet, right until Japan gets mentioned, Then it's "Those damn Japs." |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 9:59:55 AM EDT
[#44]
Except the motherfucker was wrong.
BECAUSE the US developed it first and has it in quantity the world hasn't been destroyed. Imagine if the US had done was the commie bastards wanted an unilaterally gotten rid of them. Do you think the Soviet Union or now Commie China would also get rid of them or be restrained in their use of them without the US threat of retaliation. I hate naive (or not so naive) pacifist (or commie) scum like that. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 10:00:16 AM EDT
[#45]
We probably saved Japan in a way.
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Posted: 8/19/2020 10:00:53 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a myth. Man doesn't have the power to render humans extinct. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Plunged the world into the nuclear age. For the first time, man gained the power to destroy mankind. Probably not a good thing, on the whole. However, that cat was never going to stay in the bag. Someone was going to discover it, and use it. I'm glad it was us. I sometimes wonder on what date there were enough nuclear weapons on Earth to render humans extinct. Was it on completion of the 50th bomb? 100th? 1,000th? Hard to know for sure, as it would depend on where they were deployed. It's a myth. Man doesn't have the power to render humans extinct. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 12:22:57 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just finished reading Richard B. Frank's book "Downfall The End of The Imperal Japanese Empire". Great Book 1. The Japanese leaders were looking for one great battle to bloody the Allies so much they would sue for peace with out unconditional surrender. They thought the invasion of the homeland would provide this as they reinforced the souther island of Kyushu. Sight of our 1st planned invasion. 2. We we were reading their coded diplomatic communications. They were not serious about surrender until the 2nd bomb. 3. As the USSR invaded Manchuria the initial reports to the leadership was told the invasion was not large and they were holding their own. All incorrect, but thats what the leadership was told and believed. 4. Even after the Emporer conceded to surrender the millitary still tried to stage a coup. It failed and it is still unclear if it had the support of the head of the Army, but his Chief of Staff was involved. 5. If the Blockage and Bomb campain had continued far more people would have died. This would have include all the POW's held by the Japanese, hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, hundreds of thousands of civilians in China, Korea and Manchuria. The next step in the bombing campain was to target all rail lines in japan. This would have ment no ditribution of food. Mass starvation. These are just a few highlights from the book. To all the revisionest the best way to end the war was the fastest. Dropping the bombs was the fastest and least costly. And yes my Father was in advanced Infrantry training for the Invasion of Japan when the bombs were dropped. This is correct. It's currently in vogue for historians decades or centuries removed from an event to question common knowledge if it serves their agenda. There are so many situations in everyday life that are hard to explain "unless you were there". Think about that. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 12:45:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Yes. 100%. We didn't start the war, but drag us in and we will damn well finish it.
People who refuse to believe in evil will eventually be overrun by it. |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 1:02:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @TacticalGarand44The terror bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not cause the Japanese surrender. Japan only surrendered after the Soviet invasion had seized most of Manchuria, and nearly reached Korea. "Terror bombings"? What exactly is a "terror bombing" in the context of world war? Aren't ALL bombings that are not specifically and exclusively targeting military assets "terror bombings"? Are not "terror bombings" as you termed it, a standard part of warfare? Perhaps you didn't mean it, but the way you phrased it makes it sound like the USA was acting as a "terrorist". Is that what you meant? |
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Posted: 8/19/2020 1:08:26 PM EDT
[#50]
How anyone with even a basic knowledge of the history of that time can even argue that it was a choice to use it, is beyond me. It was a necessity.
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