Pierre Sprey vs F-35: "No wing, no turn-astonishingly unmaneuverable...turkey" - Page 4

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Pierre Sprey vs F-35: "No wing, no turn-astonishingly unmaneuverable...turkey" (Page 4 of 4)

Posted: 4/28/2018 3:39:45 PM EDT

[#1]

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The US used to be in the surface-to-surface missile game... these days, not so much.

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The air force (and the navy) needs a bunch of cheap planes to use as bomb trucks so we don't fly the wings off the expensive stuff bombing mud huts.

The US used to be in the surface-to-surface missile game... these days, not so much.

Damn treaties.

Posted: 4/28/2018 3:44:12 PM EDT

[#2]

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My gripes about the F-35 are:

1. Taking so long, development started in '92, first flight was in 2006... I mean come on, 30 years +/- before they started working on it we still had WWII surplus Corsairs in service. Meanwhile we continue to run our 4th gen aircraft into the ground.
2. Expense, seems to be a kind of a cluster.
3. Trying to do everything with one plane. F-35 is probably going to be a great fighter, I don't think they are much of a CAS aircraft.

I have never even sat in a fighter but from the outside looking in it does look like a screwed up dragged out mess.

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Some of the predecessor programs started in 92. I worked on the original ASTOVL project that fed to the rest. That was an airplane intended for sale to every service. Even if it was a long way from viability at that time. The contract award to LM occurred in 2001.

Posted: 4/28/2018 3:50:35 PM EDT

[#3]

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Sure.

But then lets really think about what we need in CAS plane once we get rid of the ADA, shall we?

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Defeating IADS will allow CAS.

Does that make more sense?

Sure.

But then lets really think about what we need in CAS plane once we get rid of the ADA, shall we?

I can barely get any further than the needing of eyes on target.

But, as I understand it, the F35 could be the data center for the CAS response team once targets are identified. What kind of stuff comes after that could be anything from mortars to artillery to guided missiles launched from a multitude of platforms to fixed or rotary wings with guns.

Posted: 4/28/2018 5:04:11 PM EDT

[#4]

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The idea that an F-35 can hold a candle to a slick F-16 in WVR combat is ludicrous. There' hardly anything that can touch a slick F-16 in visual combat.

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1. How many times have slick F-16s actually gone hot in WVR combat (non training) environment?
2. I guess you didn't see the post where the F-16 pilots are all waiting around to debrief with the F-35 pilots who've just kicked their ass up between there ears, only to learn the F-35s that beat the shit out of them were carrying LGBs, then put said LGBs on target before they RTB.

Posted: 4/28/2018 5:56:32 PM EDT

[#5]

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F35 threads always make me chuckle.

I personally am very happy with everyone thinking they are garbage...

Never hurts to have your capabilities underestimated.

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When I was working on the F35 some “think tank” did some wargame or tabletop exercise bullshit and claimed the C variant “got clubbed like baby seals”...A few other outfits not trying to grab headlines, oh like the USN and Lockheed Martin shot that think tank’s biased and ridiculous “analysis” full of holes, and the C model earned a new unofficial mascot of a white seal wielding a club

Posted: 4/30/2018 5:44:15 PM EDT

[#6]

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Sure it will, as long as you stay ahead of the competition.

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F35 tickle fight aside, there will be ZERO CAS in an IADS environment.

WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Sure it will, as long as you stay ahead of the competition.

F-22 and other aircraft are providing CAS in Syria, which has multiple layers of IADS over it.

Posted: 4/30/2018 5:49:14 PM EDT

[#7]

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The army needs LAAR, not the air force. The air force (and the navy) needs a bunch of cheap planes to use as bomb trucks so we don't fly the wings off the expensive stuff bombing mud huts.

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A Mk 81/SDB pez dispenser pallet for C-130s keeps coming to mind. Harvest HAWK is already

shooting stuff if I'm not mistaken, and 250 pounds is about the same weight as a larger

paratrooper with parachute and rucksack, so the pilots are used to the weight shift.

Put a SNIPER pod under the wing, and go to town. Not perfect, but not a billion dollars a

copy either.

Posted: 4/30/2018 6:26:45 PM EDT

[#8]

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A Mk 81/SDB pez dispenser pallet for C-130s keeps coming to mind. Harvest HAWK is already

shooting stuff if I'm not mistaken, and 250 pounds is about the same weight as a larger

paratrooper with parachute and rucksack, so the pilots are used to the weight shift.

Put a SNIPER pod under the wing, and go to town. Not perfect, but not a billion dollars a

copy either.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

The army needs LAAR, not the air force. The air force (and the navy) needs a bunch of cheap planes to use as bomb trucks so we don't fly the wings off the expensive stuff bombing mud huts.

A Mk 81/SDB pez dispenser pallet for C-130s keeps coming to mind. Harvest HAWK is already

shooting stuff if I'm not mistaken, and 250 pounds is about the same weight as a larger

paratrooper with parachute and rucksack, so the pilots are used to the weight shift.

Put a SNIPER pod under the wing, and go to town. Not perfect, but not a billion dollars a

copy either.

If you want cheap just get an LAAR. The Harvest Hawk was a great example of how to replace a $10m, $600 per hour plane with a $100m, $6000 per hour low density asset.

Posted: 4/30/2018 6:33:49 PM EDT

[#9]

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A Mk 81/SDB pez dispenser pallet for C-130s keeps coming to mind. Harvest HAWK is already

shooting stuff if I'm not mistaken, and 250 pounds is about the same weight as a larger

paratrooper with parachute and rucksack, so the pilots are used to the weight shift.

Put a SNIPER pod under the wing, and go to town. Not perfect, but not a billion dollars a

copy either.

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Harvest HAWK, while a very clever use of existing airframes, is not really efficient as far as operating costs.

Buy a couple hundred LAAR airframes, give some to AFSOC, and the rest to the ANG units currently operating drones but without any actual aircraft assigned.

Posted: 4/30/2018 6:50:09 PM EDT

[#10]

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F-22 and other aircraft are providing CAS in Syria, which has multiple layers of IADS over it.

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Posted: 4/30/2018 6:52:32 PM EDT

[#11]

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F-22 and other aircraft are providing CAS in Syria, which has multiple layers of IADS over it.

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Quoted:
F35 tickle fight aside, there will be ZERO CAS in an IADS environment.

WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Sure it will, as long as you stay ahead of the competition.

F-22 and other aircraft are providing CAS in Syria, which has multiple layers of IADS over it.

Attached File

Posted: 4/30/2018 7:08:08 PM EDT

[#12]

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Harvest HAWK, while a very clever use of existing airframes, is not really efficient as far as operating costs.

Buy a couple hundred LAAR airframes, give some to AFSOC, and the rest to the ANG units currently operating drones but without any actual aircraft assigned.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
A Mk 81/SDB pez dispenser pallet for C-130s keeps coming to mind. Harvest HAWK is already

shooting stuff if I'm not mistaken, and 250 pounds is about the same weight as a larger

paratrooper with parachute and rucksack, so the pilots are used to the weight shift.

Put a SNIPER pod under the wing, and go to town. Not perfect, but not a billion dollars a

copy either.

Harvest HAWK, while a very clever use of existing airframes, is not really efficient as far as operating costs.

Buy a couple hundred LAAR airframes, give some to AFSOC, and the rest to the ANG units currently operating drones but without any actual aircraft assigned.

What really sucks is that most of the time over the last 30 years or so we could have used any kind of cheap crap plane to bomb and strafe mud huts since the worst they had to face was maybe a dshk. A super taco or 10 would cost next to nothing compared to other systems and would do everything we need and more about 90% of the time. Hell, even in a near peer conflict they could be useful after the air defenses have been suppressed. Somebody has to do mop up and the whiz bang stuff will be needed elsewhere.

It would be interesting to see them buy some textron scorpions for that role but that will never happen.