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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:31:49 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryLMAO, probably a line a mile long of people trying to chase it down. No lawyer here but would in courage everyone to wait just a bit to see how this plays out. There is still time U ain’t no choice anyway as I keep reading the eforms site down, LOL |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:31:51 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Notice how anyone that questions them or disagrees with them must be an ATF agent. This is exactly how commies operate. They try to tarnish the name of anyone that threatens their cause. Just like the commie Dems call anyone that is a threat Putin's puppet or Agent of Russia. Commies operate by discouraging people from registering firearms? Quite a take there.  Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. According to the “Law,” a pistol braced AR-15 with a sub-16” barrel is a pistol. Show me the Law that says otherwise Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' ATF rules are not laws. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. See also inalienable rights. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:33:15 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bro, listen, I totally understand what the supposed role of the ATF is, and while I'd agree with you and love to debate the technicalities of legal jurisdiction of different government branches, the fact is what the fuck does this matter to you? You live in Illinois, one of the biggest shitholes in the whole union. Your fat cocksucker of a crooked ass Governor just passed an "assault weapons" ban, and your AG has vowed to take action against any Sheriff who had balls enough to tell him to "get fucked". Furthermore, you can't even have a firearm in your own home without permission from the crown. Lmfao, "muh FOID card". So while I totally feel your points on why the ATF and DOJ need to choke on a big concrete dick, I think you should worry about unfucking your own state first, as priority. What would be almost all of them. And a large number of states attorneys. And the AG doesn't have that authority in the first place. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:35:15 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I still do not think it has hit the register yet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. I still do not think it has hit the register yet. It hasn't. It cleared OMB on the 12th and has been in a black hole since then. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:38:00 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ideally but realistically to have any chance at all you'd have to compromise in congress. The worst part of the ruling is that it doesn't really improve the vagueness of the statute at all. Arguably makes it worse. Maybe a court could rule that life has got more complicated and in order to be enforced congress would have to fix it? Dems would want it made worse but maybe we could get a net improvement? Realistically Congress has no say in this matter. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:39:45 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Notice how anyone that questions them or disagrees with them must be an ATF agent. This is exactly how commies operate. They try to tarnish the name of anyone that threatens their cause. Just like the commie Dems call anyone that is a threat Putin's puppet or Agent of Russia. Commies operate by discouraging people from registering firearms? Quite a take there. Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. According to the “Law,” a pistol braced AR-15 with a sub-16” barrel is a pistol. Show me the Law that says otherwise Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' No. Agencies can make rules to execute the laws Congress has passed. Changing such laws (cough cough definitions) to fit their agenda is not "law" when they were not granted that authority. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:40:05 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look, it doesn't matter how we got here or how many braces are in use. I have two. I also have two SBRs and two silencers. The fact is if the FBATF comes to your house and arrest you for having an illegal SBR you are going to jail and then court. Your lawyer can say well the FBATF said this was a pistol all they want with all the examples they want. The FBATF expert will get on the stand and say well, yes we did say that and it was a mistake. We corrected that mistake and gave the public 1/3 of a year to file paperwork saying they wanted to make their SBR legal. We even waived the tax to allow them to come into compliance as we recognized it was our error. This yahoo decided not to comply and thus decided to intentionally commit a felony. No court is going to say this is not within the purview of the FBATF. A reasonable jury of your peers will likely conclude the FBATF did screw up but allowed you to comply and you chose not to and therefore you are guilty and a felon. I posted earlier about how I think SCOTUS can rule on this case and what I think they will do. In short, I think you will be sitting in a Federal Prison for a long time. I agree it sucks. I agree it shouldn't be. But there are better legal battles to fight like the entire NFA and GCA should be ruled unconstitutional. This isn't our best argument for that. Just my opinion... Take it for the value of the virtual paper it's written on. So you first of all haven't paid any attention to how ATF court cases go. And you are also assuming that the defendant will have the worst lawyers in the country. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:40:50 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' (Removed, CoC-6 ~guns762) Rules are not laws, just like braces are not stocks, pistols are not SBRs, etc. We get it, you want a free SBR, but let the ATF argue their own case. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:41:00 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ATF rules are not laws. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. See also inalienable rights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Notice how anyone that questions them or disagrees with them must be an ATF agent. This is exactly how commies operate. They try to tarnish the name of anyone that threatens their cause. Just like the commie Dems call anyone that is a threat Putin's puppet or Agent of Russia. Commies operate by discouraging people from registering firearms? Quite a take there. Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. According to the “Law,” a pistol braced AR-15 with a sub-16” barrel is a pistol. Show me the Law that says otherwise Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' ATF rules are not laws. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. See also inalienable rights. When you're standing in front of a judge getting sentenced for an NFA violation, make sure and remind the judge that it's a rule not a law. I'm sure he'll go easier on the sentence for you. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:42:14 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t trust people that murder innocent women, and children. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Form 4999 had too many "work arounds" still. They got caught with the notation portion at the beginning which really made the rest of the form (i.e. complacence) pointless. One could have had a 10.5" with a blade brace on a std. pistol tube and strap using a red-dot sight no irons at min. Light weight BCG and handguard with a tuned gas system and your gtg. ( a 12.5" barrel could have used with a Strike Ind. short tube system weight being a consideration ) They want to kill it all and if they can put a few thousand in jail while doing it to send a message they will do it. This has all been a stage play leading up to registration confiscation or incarceration. I would not do the free tax stamp ..............................no way! 88 day auto denial while still having what they consider to be a non-reg NFA item is bad mojo. Remember by submitting the form you are attesting to what they accuse you of. Signed admission of guilt with provided photo evidence. If not processed within 88 days you are screwed. If you disassemble the weapon after submitting the form or after the 88 day auto denial you are possibly destroying evidence in what they would call an investigative case study. Remember you are already a felon in their eyes. It could land you in front of judge and at minimum you will lose the weapon. I'm waiting to see the first individuals to get pinched before the 120 day grace period is up on some other bastardized ATF interpretation of there own rule. Until it's published the 88 day auto denial wont start. (Will someone, a legal expert please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above.) HIVE MIND at work. Safe bet based on new info and ambiguous interpretations: 1. Disassemble upper from lower. 2. remove buffer tube from lower. 3. de-barrel upper. Wait it out. The best fight is the one going on via legal routes. If SHTF all you need is 30 min to reconfigure and do a 25m-50m zero PDQ. Then again a 16" may be the better SHTF rig anyway. No time for heroes, just be smart people. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534172309305425923/1066232285814341692/image.png OR https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534172309305425923/958558074627555378/unknown.png FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME TO THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT DO NFA....88 DAYS STARTS AFTER THEY START YOUR BACKGROUND NOT ON SUBMISSION OF YOUR PAPERWORK...I swear...many of you need to learn to STFU about NFA rules and regs...IT IS THE SAME 88 DAY RULE IF YOUR 4473 GETS DELAYED AND REMAINS OPEN... Yeah, but on a normal scenario, you're just out your time....here you've attested to possessing an unregistered SBR, so prepare for a visit. It’s obvious many of you can’t understand how things are written or work…but it’s good to spread hearsay… I don’t trust people that murder innocent women, and children. Gotcha. So that’s why many don’t have proper literacy or the ability to discern gaslighting topics they can’t comprehend… Listen. I don’t like this either but at least I don’t spread fakery. Even that GOA lawyer had to correct himself after the video… so please learn the rules and regs (Removed-guns762)… |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:43:33 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you guys want to go up against the ATF and fight them, I wish you the best of luck. But I'm not going to support you by failing to register a braced pistol and become a felon. If you got a link and want me to donate $20 to your cause, send it over. I'm already a NRA life member by the way, not that the NRA stands for much anymore. I am complying with the law because I'm smart enough to understand that I can't go up against the Department of Justice and win. People who fight the ATF almost always win. Either an official win, or the ATF flees the case and drops charger the moment uncomfortable questions start getting asked. And for this they have no room to retreat. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:46:57 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exactly. To all the naysayers…for the love of God, shut the fuck up. The ATF made a huge mistake and now there are millions of Americans who own braced pistols in various forms all across the country. This is an opportunity to re-examine the NFA definition of an SBR. Shut the fuck up. ETA: Millions of Americans (how many millions?), tens of millions of braces in circulation. That’s common use if ever there were. They fucked up. That’s not our fault. Use this opportunity to gain. Fucking shut the up if you don’t want to help get SBR struck from the NFA or at least redefined to provide blanket protection for all. 
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:49:26 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Realistically Congress has no say in this matter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ideally but realistically to have any chance at all you'd have to compromise in congress. The worst part of the ruling is that it doesn't really improve the vagueness of the statute at all. Arguably makes it worse. Maybe a court could rule that life has got more complicated and in order to be enforced congress would have to fix it? Dems would want it made worse but maybe we could get a net improvement? Realistically Congress has no say in this matter. They approve the Fed budget. At a certain point, they always have a say. Piss them off enough, they can shut everything in the gov down. I hope you are all contacting your Congressman. When you talk to them be sure to ask them to cut the BATFE and DoJ budgets. If Congress would do so, ATF would not have the money to pursue things like this, and harassing FFLs and so forth. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:49:28 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good luck Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. As an example of how you are in reality not posting facts, I will point out in the quoted post above that "rules" are not "laws." Moreover, nobody is encouraging anybody to break the law. What we are encouraging is to support legal challenges to this rule before committing to registration of their firearms. Not only does this course of action bear no actual risk for those who take it, it may prevent them from registering non-NFA items with BATFE. Nothing about that is encouraging anybody to break any law, in fact it is encouraging them to seek recourse through the legal system. Maybe you are unable to differentiate between the two things, or maybe you are intentionally mischaracterizing them; but it is noteworthy that your group, mere days ago was stating that the only two choices here for braced pistol owners were to hurry up and register their pistols with BATFE, or get in a shootout with federal law enforcement. The rule hasn't even hit the register yet FFS. The fact that this stands to criminalize millions of people who went out of their way to follow the law by a simple rule change may be enough to get an injunction on its own. Don't go calling people out for misinformation when that's exactly what you've been posting. Good luck You certainly seem invested in this rule going into effect, getting as many as possible to comply with it, and courts affirming its legitimacy. Of course, who doesn't join a firearms board to vehemently support BATFEs latest whimzy? |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:53:19 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You certainly seem invested in this rule going into effect, getting as many as possible to comply with it, and courts affirming its legitimacy. Of course, who doesn't join a firearms board to vehemently support BATFEs latest whimzy? Think whatever you like. Best of luck to you. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:57:12 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agree but our side never gets rightfully lucky that way, sadly. Now who is lying? |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:58:09 AM EST
[#17]
Neither the President or ATF make gun laws. Different interpretation of laws based on personal opinion is a clear sign the laws are not clearly stated or understandable to begin with. An interpretation of physical items based on opinions of possible or impossible intended use based on nonsensical and unproven ideas disguised as rational facts has no correlation with enforcing law.
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Posted: 1/21/2023 10:59:21 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you're standing in front of a judge getting sentenced for an NFA violation, make sure and remind the judge that it's a rule not a law. I'm sure he'll go easier on the sentence for you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Notice how anyone that questions them or disagrees with them must be an ATF agent. This is exactly how commies operate. They try to tarnish the name of anyone that threatens their cause. Just like the commie Dems call anyone that is a threat Putin's puppet or Agent of Russia. Commies operate by discouraging people from registering firearms? Quite a take there. Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. According to the “Law,” a pistol braced AR-15 with a sub-16” barrel is a pistol. Show me the Law that says otherwise Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' ATF rules are not laws. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. See also inalienable rights. When you're standing in front of a judge getting sentenced for an NFA violation, make sure and remind the judge that it's a rule not a law. I'm sure he'll go easier on the sentence for you. That's not going to happen. But not for the reasons you think. Obviously your goal here is to piss yourself, over nothing, like a scared puppy. If that's your thing, go ahead. Just don't be surprised when grown men aren't scared along with you, and are slightly annoyed you are pissing on our carpet. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:00:56 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotcha. So that’s why many don’t have proper literacy or the ability to discern gaslighting topics they can’t comprehend… Listen. I don’t like this either but at least I don’t spread fakery. Even that GOA lawyer had to correct himself after the video… so please learn the rules and regs or STFU… Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Form 4999 had too many "work arounds" still. They got caught with the notation portion at the beginning which really made the rest of the form (i.e. complacence) pointless. One could have had a 10.5" with a blade brace on a std. pistol tube and strap using a red-dot sight no irons at min. Light weight BCG and handguard with a tuned gas system and your gtg. ( a 12.5" barrel could have used with a Strike Ind. short tube system weight being a consideration ) They want to kill it all and if they can put a few thousand in jail while doing it to send a message they will do it. This has all been a stage play leading up to registration confiscation or incarceration. I would not do the free tax stamp ..............................no way! 88 day auto denial while still having what they consider to be a non-reg NFA item is bad mojo. Remember by submitting the form you are attesting to what they accuse you of. Signed admission of guilt with provided photo evidence. If not processed within 88 days you are screwed. If you disassemble the weapon after submitting the form or after the 88 day auto denial you are possibly destroying evidence in what they would call an investigative case study. Remember you are already a felon in their eyes. It could land you in front of judge and at minimum you will lose the weapon. I'm waiting to see the first individuals to get pinched before the 120 day grace period is up on some other bastardized ATF interpretation of there own rule. Until it's published the 88 day auto denial wont start. (Will someone, a legal expert please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above.) HIVE MIND at work. Safe bet based on new info and ambiguous interpretations: 1. Disassemble upper from lower. 2. remove buffer tube from lower. 3. de-barrel upper. Wait it out. The best fight is the one going on via legal routes. If SHTF all you need is 30 min to reconfigure and do a 25m-50m zero PDQ. Then again a 16" may be the better SHTF rig anyway. No time for heroes, just be smart people. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534172309305425923/1066232285814341692/image.png OR https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534172309305425923/958558074627555378/unknown.png FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME TO THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT DO NFA....88 DAYS STARTS AFTER THEY START YOUR BACKGROUND NOT ON SUBMISSION OF YOUR PAPERWORK...I swear...many of you need to learn to STFU about NFA rules and regs...IT IS THE SAME 88 DAY RULE IF YOUR 4473 GETS DELAYED AND REMAINS OPEN... Yeah, but on a normal scenario, you're just out your time....here you've attested to possessing an unregistered SBR, so prepare for a visit. It’s obvious many of you can’t understand how things are written or work…but it’s good to spread hearsay… I don’t trust people that murder innocent women, and children. Gotcha. So that’s why many don’t have proper literacy or the ability to discern gaslighting topics they can’t comprehend… Listen. I don’t like this either but at least I don’t spread fakery. Even that GOA lawyer had to correct himself after the video… so please learn the rules and regs or STFU… Sorry, don’t trust you either. I’ll make up my own mind based on what my eyes have seen, and my ears have heard. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:06:09 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let’s say 10 million people embrace (sorry) this foolish registration scheme and apply for stamps. That leaves 5, 10 million or more who didn’t know or just said, “no.” Now what? Hit & miss/piecemeal enforcement like they do now? Oooh, scary. Now step it up to a war on braces/U.S. Citizens? They will thoroughly get their asses kicked. Fine line between starting a war and seeing your name and address on the internet, Mr. Agent. Who is going to be doing all this stamp checking? Ridiculous. Also people are acting like 10 million new SBR registrations would hurt the inevitable SBR common use case. I'm not rightly sure how someone gets that retarded. But here we are. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:06:11 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It hasn't. It cleared OMB on the 12th and has been in a black hole since then. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. I still do not think it has hit the register yet. It hasn't. It cleared OMB on the 12th and has been in a black hole since then. My guess is February 3 because there is Webex training for FFLs on January 31 and February 1, usually people receive training just before a roll out. But no one knows for sure for an agency that consistently lies. Eform 4 approvals in 90 days......lie (currently at 250+) Pistol braces are fine......lie Bumpstocks are machine guns.....lie Has to be in trust as of Jan. 13......lie Will be published within a week.....probably a lie (gleaned from the conference meeting at shot show) |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:09:17 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They approve the Fed budget. At a certain point, they always have a say. Piss them off enough, they can shut everything in the gov down. I hope you are all contacting your Congressman. When you talk to them be sure to ask them to cut the BATFE and DoJ budgets. If Congress would do so, ATF would not have the money to pursue things like this, and harassing FFLs and so forth. Kindly explain how Congress' control of the budget will let them prevent SBRs from getting struck from the NFA. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:15:21 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Think whatever you like. Best of luck to you.  Why would I need luck? |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:16:47 AM EST
[#24]
Knock off the personal attacks~guns762
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:20:58 AM EST
[#25]
For all of the people saying "hurr durr try saying that in front of a judge!", try it the other way around:
"Your honor 40 million gun owners are crippled and so some but not all of their guns have to have braces" Stop obsessing over the semantic compliance bullshit and get your eyes on the fucking prize: removal from the NFA. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:22:29 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to the “Law,” a pistol braced AR-15 with a sub-16” barrel is a pistol. Show me the Law that says otherwise The 'law; says if the gun is intended to be shouldered it's a rifle. Period. Nothing at all about how to determine that. So pick it up and shoulder it. Hold it out at arms length. Which was it 'intended' for? Don't believe that's a fair test within the 'law'? Maybe you're right. But what is? What else could a court do? Just accept that if you take a rifle and write pistol brace on the stock then they must take your word for it? Think this is atf inappropriately changing the law? Ignore it. When you're arrested go to court and show the judge and jury that your braced pistol is clearly not intended to be shouldered per the law. The prosecution will demonstrate how easily and effectively it can be shouldered. They will demonstrate how difficult it is to use as a pistol. Maybe let the jury try both ways. What is your plan to show that they're wrong when they say that matters? It was intended to be used the awkward way and it's an accident it works the easy way? You're going to have a big burden of proof asking judge and jury to accept that. You have to show that there is clearly a way to decide the gun is a pistol that is more true to "(not) intended to be shouldered". Does the brace establish intent to use as a pistol? Probably. Does that matter? Probably not. The 'law' doesn't say ONLY intended to be shouldered. Yes or no, was it intended to be shouldered. If you say atf approved pistol braces then you're saying that it is ok for them to interpret the law the way you like but not the way you don't. Claim that one way is 'right' and one 'wrong' and you're back to square one. The 'law' actually supports an sbr with the stock changed to something that ALSO barely plausibly works as a brace is clearly a pistol? Why? Prove it. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:25:27 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kindly explain how Congress' control of the budget will let them prevent SBRs from getting struck from the NFA. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They approve the Fed budget. At a certain point, they always have a say. Piss them off enough, they can shut everything in the gov down. I hope you are all contacting your Congressman. When you talk to them be sure to ask them to cut the BATFE and DoJ budgets. If Congress would do so, ATF would not have the money to pursue things like this, and harassing FFLs and so forth. Kindly explain how Congress' control of the budget will let them prevent SBRs from getting struck from the NFA. You are right, I got off track and went all old man yelling at clouds on ya. My apologies. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:25:57 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 'law; says if the gun is intended to be shouldered it's a rifle. Period. Nothing at all about how to determine that. So pick it up and shoulder it. Hold it out at arms length. Which was it 'intended' for? Don't believe that's a fair test within the 'law'? Maybe you're right. But what is? What else could a court do? Just accept that if you take a rifle and write pistol brace on the stock then they must take your word for it? Think this is atf inappropriately changing the law? Ignore it. When you're arrested go to court and show the judge and jury that your braced pistol is clearly not intended to be shouldered per the law. The prosecution will demonstrate how easily and effectively it can be shouldered. They will demonstrate how difficult it is to use as a pistol. Maybe let the jury try both ways. What is your plan to show that they're wrong when they say that matters? It was intended to be used the awkward way and it's an accident it works the easy way? You're going to have a big burden of proof asking judge and jury to accept that. You have to show that there is clearly a way to decide the gun is a pistol that is more true to "(not) intended to be shouldered". Does the brace establish intent to use as a pistol? Probably. Does that matter? Probably not. The 'law' doesn't say ONLY intended to be shouldered. Yes or no, was it intended to be shouldered. If you say atf approved pistol braces then you're saying that it is ok for them to interpret the law the way you like but not the way you don't. Claim that one way is 'right' and one 'wrong' and you're back to square one. The 'law' actually supports an sbr with the stock changed to something that ALSO barely plausibly works as a brace is clearly a pistol? Why? Prove it. That is a lot of text to say you are incapable of thinking outside the ATF's box. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:27:25 AM EST
[#29]
Just so everybody knows, 88 days from today is April 19.
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:29:09 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess I misunderstood the point you were making. I agree that's probably a scotus thing in this current gov. If the majority of voters and reps weren't morons, NFA would never have existed, or it would have been negated by a newer and better Congressional law. However, getting sbr off the nfa isn't some magical thing that ends this problem. Dems really want to bring back the 90s awb... And they need Congress to do that. I apologize if you don't need an 8th grade civics lesson. I only do so, because it seems many here, especially those with atf weiner in their mouth, have no idea how our gov works. Yeah, that isn't happening. There is a reason that AWB was the last victory the grabbers made. As hard as it is for the perpetual doom crowd to admit; we haven't just won this part of the culture war. We have achieved absolute dominance in it to the point where the only options left open to the enemy are playing bs rules games (waves to the glowies), or blatantly illegal laws in blue strongholds. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:40:30 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 'law; says if the gun is intended to be shouldered it's a rifle. Period. Nothing at all about how to determine that. So pick it up and shoulder it. Hold it out at arms length. Which was it 'intended' for? Don't believe that's a fair test within the 'law'? Maybe you're right. But what is? What else could a court do? Just accept that if you take a rifle and write pistol brace on the stock then they must take your word for it? Think this is atf inappropriately changing the law? Ignore it. When you're arrested go to court and show the judge and jury that your braced pistol is clearly not intended to be shouldered per the law. The prosecution will demonstrate how easily and effectively it can be shouldered. They will demonstrate how difficult it is to use as a pistol. Maybe let the jury try both ways. What is your plan to show that they're wrong when they say that matters? It was intended to be used the awkward way and it's an accident it works the easy way? You're going to have a big burden of proof asking judge and jury to accept that. You have to show that there is clearly a way to decide the gun is a pistol that is more true to "(not) intended to be shouldered". Does the brace establish intent to use as a pistol? Probably. Does that matter? Probably not. The 'law' doesn't say ONLY intended to be shouldered. Yes or no, was it intended to be shouldered. If you say atf approved pistol braces then you're saying that it is ok for them to interpret the law the way you like but not the way you don't. Claim that one way is 'right' and one 'wrong' and you're back to square one. The 'law' actually supports an sbr with the stock changed to something that ALSO barely plausibly works as a brace is clearly a pistol? Why? Prove it. FFS... Designed Made And intended Is what the law says. Stop pretending this is vague so that you can act like this rule change has any semblance of legitimacy |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:42:38 AM EST
[#32]
Question?
After the 120 days "grace period" for registration/ stamp giveaway, will braces be unavailable for sale? |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:46:54 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Question? After the 120 days "grace period" for registration/ stamp giveaway, will braces be unavailable for sale? Once it goes into effect you will be unable to buy a braced pistol without an NFA stamp. Theoretically you could still buy a brace to use on a rifle. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:50:55 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, that isn't happening. There is a reason that AWB was the last victory the grabbers made. As hard as it is for the perpetual doom crowd to admit; we haven't just won this part of the culture war. We have achieved absolute dominance in it to the point where the only options left open to the enemy are playing bs rules games (waves to the glowies), or blatantly illegal laws in blue strongholds. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I guess I misunderstood the point you were making. I agree that's probably a scotus thing in this current gov. If the majority of voters and reps weren't morons, NFA would never have existed, or it would have been negated by a newer and better Congressional law. However, getting sbr off the nfa isn't some magical thing that ends this problem. Dems really want to bring back the 90s awb... And they need Congress to do that. I apologize if you don't need an 8th grade civics lesson. I only do so, because it seems many here, especially those with atf weiner in their mouth, have no idea how our gov works. Yeah, that isn't happening. There is a reason that AWB was the last victory the grabbers made. As hard as it is for the perpetual doom crowd to admit; we haven't just won this part of the culture war. We have achieved absolute dominance in it to the point where the only options left open to the enemy are playing bs rules games (waves to the glowies), or blatantly illegal laws in blue strongholds. Good points. The doomers / fear mongerers do need to STFU and calm down. NFA could be partially struck down or go away. This rule probably isn't going to just go the way ATF wrote it. At least not in the long term. Its been said a lot, but the best advice is to wait a bit. Even the ATF says they will do nothing for 4 months. Anyone who has dealt with atf form 4 can tell you it takes them a year to accomplish something that should take an hour. The guys talking about how they can't wait to get their free stuff, or how you will end up in front of a judge or in jail... Only 3 reasons you would act like that at this point: 1. You really love gov handouts and think $200-$1,000 is a life changing amount of money. 2. You are extremely afraid and paranoid of the government and authority in general. There is no scenario where breaking laws or fighting unjust laws make sense to you. See also Germans. 3. You are a fed or Fed/Dem sympathizer here to attempt to fear monger others into compliance. It's a stance that's hard to understand or respect. Especially on a gun forum. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:51:58 AM EST
[#35]
A certain percent will always do what their masters tell them as evidenced by the incessant posts and attempts to justify their compliance.
The rest will take a number of different paths from open defiance to stashing their pistols in their boog caches until this plays out. No one here is changing anyone's mind on where they stand. The ATF isn't stupid. Pistols were low hanging fruit. Many self identified conservatives will jump on the promise of "free shit" just like the left's dependent slave class. Divide and conquer is an effective strategy. The ATFs success with this will bring more infringements down the road. 
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:53:40 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotcha. So that’s why many don’t have proper literacy or the ability to discern gaslighting topics they can’t comprehend… Listen. I don’t like this either but at least I don’t spread fakery. Even that GOA lawyer had to correct himself after the video… so please learn the rules and regs (Removed-guns762)… Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Form 4999 had too many "work arounds" still. They got caught with the notation portion at the beginning which really made the rest of the form (i.e. complacence) pointless. One could have had a 10.5" with a blade brace on a std. pistol tube and strap using a red-dot sight no irons at min. Light weight BCG and handguard with a tuned gas system and your gtg. ( a 12.5" barrel could have used with a Strike Ind. short tube system weight being a consideration ) They want to kill it all and if they can put a few thousand in jail while doing it to send a message they will do it. This has all been a stage play leading up to registration confiscation or incarceration. I would not do the free tax stamp ..............................no way! 88 day auto denial while still having what they consider to be a non-reg NFA item is bad mojo. Remember by submitting the form you are attesting to what they accuse you of. Signed admission of guilt with provided photo evidence. If not processed within 88 days you are screwed. If you disassemble the weapon after submitting the form or after the 88 day auto denial you are possibly destroying evidence in what they would call an investigative case study. Remember you are already a felon in their eyes. It could land you in front of judge and at minimum you will lose the weapon. I'm waiting to see the first individuals to get pinched before the 120 day grace period is up on some other bastardized ATF interpretation of there own rule. Until it's published the 88 day auto denial wont start. (Will someone, a legal expert please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above.) HIVE MIND at work. Safe bet based on new info and ambiguous interpretations: 1. Disassemble upper from lower. 2. remove buffer tube from lower. 3. de-barrel upper. Wait it out. The best fight is the one going on via legal routes. If SHTF all you need is 30 min to reconfigure and do a 25m-50m zero PDQ. Then again a 16" may be the better SHTF rig anyway. No time for heroes, just be smart people. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534172309305425923/1066232285814341692/image.png OR https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534172309305425923/958558074627555378/unknown.png FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME TO THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT DO NFA....88 DAYS STARTS AFTER THEY START YOUR BACKGROUND NOT ON SUBMISSION OF YOUR PAPERWORK...I swear...many of you need to learn to STFU about NFA rules and regs...IT IS THE SAME 88 DAY RULE IF YOUR 4473 GETS DELAYED AND REMAINS OPEN... Yeah, but on a normal scenario, you're just out your time....here you've attested to possessing an unregistered SBR, so prepare for a visit. It’s obvious many of you can’t understand how things are written or work…but it’s good to spread hearsay… I don’t trust people that murder innocent women, and children. Gotcha. So that’s why many don’t have proper literacy or the ability to discern gaslighting topics they can’t comprehend… Listen. I don’t like this either but at least I don’t spread fakery. Even that GOA lawyer had to correct himself after the video… so please learn the rules and regs (Removed-guns762)… How about no? Not wasting time on their tyranny. Their words are the wind to me from this point forward. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:56:17 AM EST
[#37]
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:56:33 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. "Your group" Interesting. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:57:07 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once it goes into effect you will be unable to buy a braced pistol without an NFA stamp. Theoretically you could still buy a brace to use on a rifle. Which will be funny b/c everyone is going to be like, nah I want an actual stock on my rifle. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:58:40 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FFS... Designed Made And intended Is what the law says. Stop pretending this is vague so that you can act like this rule change has any semblance of legitimacy An SBR with the stock swapped for a stock that sorta claims to be a brace is designed made AND intended to be shouldered. It's vague but the great majority of people who aren't pre-determined to deny it are going to agree. Stop pretending that some lame CLAIM of intent makes it clear. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 11:59:04 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Notice how anyone that questions them or disagrees with them must be an ATF agent. This is exactly how commies operate. They try to tarnish the name of anyone that threatens their cause. Just like the commie Dems call anyone that is a threat Putin's puppet or Agent of Russia. Commies operate by discouraging people from registering firearms? Quite a take there. Your group has been ENCOURAGING people to break the law and become felons, risk prison time, risk their livelihood and financial future. BTW...I haven't seem this mentioned yet, but if you get caught with a unregistered SBR, they will confiscate your entire gun and ammo collection, and you'll likely never see it again. So your group's position comes with lots of risks. I have been posting facts (to overcome the vast amount of misinformation) so people can make an informed decision about how they want to proceed. For that I get called an ATF agent by your group. According to the “Law,” a pistol braced AR-15 with a sub-16” barrel is a pistol. Show me the Law that says otherwise Once the ruling is uploaded to the register all that changes. The Attorney General has already signed it: 'On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of “rifle” under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length. ' According to the “Law,” a pistol braced AR-15 with a sub-16” barrel is a pistol. Show me the Law that says otherwise. ATF rule changes do not change Laws. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:05:13 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An SBR with the stock swapped for a stock that sorta claims to be a brace is designed made AND intended to be shouldered. It's vague but the great majority of people who aren't pre-determined to deny it are going to agree. Stop pretending that some lame CLAIM of intent makes it clear. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: FFS... Designed Made And intended Is what the law says. Stop pretending this is vague so that you can act like this rule change has any semblance of legitimacy An SBR with the stock swapped for a stock that sorta claims to be a brace is designed made AND intended to be shouldered. It's vague but the great majority of people who aren't pre-determined to deny it are going to agree. Stop pretending that some lame CLAIM of intent makes it clear. You can be the judge of that for the pistols that you are the "maker" of. I'm pretty sure you aren't the maker of my pistols. So your opinion, like that of the BATFE, is worthless on the matter. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:07:44 PM EST
[#43]
The last dozen or so pages have turned into a slap fight between people reeeing that it is a pistol vs people and/or glowies reeeeing that you broke the law.
You are both wrong. Neither of you are helping. And neither of you understands what a brace is. I have no reason to be interested in braces except as a workaround for unconstitutional laws. And for the ones who don't seem to get it: that includes the state level ones. Note where I live. Similarly I have no reason to be interested in binary triggers except for the fact that I am unable to get a machinegun. What you are terrified of - or in some cases what you are gloating about - as the end of the brace is not the end of the brace, but its apotheosis. The reason braces needed to be embraced (not sorry) is because they solved one of the hard problems of politics. While something is on the NFA it is difficult to get the traction for mass adoption to get the law removed on common use. Additionally it suffers from the classic issue of "not my thing, don't care". Widespread adoption of braces gave the average gun owner a way to assist in cutting this knot without having to even know they were doing it. Because of this once the brace was allowed it locked in one of two possible wins: the unofficial removal of SBRs from the NFA which we have had for several years now, or if the ATF tried to close the barn door the official removal of braces from the NFA. The ATF has chosen the latter. You being a glowie, or suffering from the worst case of battered wife syndrome in history is not my problem. So long as you manage to refrain from actively hurting the important fight. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:11:22 PM EST
[#44]
The 88 days its what stoped me doing mine. I will be honest it scares the heck out of me. I am to old and have to much invested to go to prison for a s&W mp15-p the only ar pistol I own which I got on a whim at the local gun shop to help him out cause he could not sell it and I was already picking up something else. heck throw it on, it will be fun for the kids/grandkids. all because I am past 88 days and its sit on someones desk and its taking to long to process cause nics ends up being down.
so here I am stuck with it now. with no course of action since its even called out by name and picture in the FAQ as a SBR. do I sell it off to some body. remove the brace. dont think that will work since it doesnt need the buffer tube to work. so what do people like me and others do..... all the people in states that dont allow sbr. heck if this would have been years ago I would not even be able to file for the free sbr since mo required some form of FFL to have class 3 stuff. this is what I want answered is what do we do. with out the hoopla I just want answers and help. 1. I mean I cant switch the upper. S&W will not sell just a 16 inch upper, or barrel 2. take off the brace....dont know if that will work since the 22 doesnt need the buffer tube to function. it has a fake one. but you cannot remove the tube cause its fake and molded to the lower. 3. file and pray I dont mess up the form, and I get approved in 88 days. 4. sell it to someone and put them in the bind...I cant do this. 5. perm attach a device to bring it up to 16.. which there is only a couple on the market thats over 9 inches. which is really going look stupid. 6.destroy the whole gun..550 bucks gone I am not one of the afrcom rich people. 550 is good money to me. so what do we do... |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:12:48 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kindly explain how Congress' control of the budget will let them prevent SBRs from getting struck from the NFA. If Congress really cared they could threaten the ATF budget. Pretty sure they do that all the time, dangle the money to get what they want. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:13:59 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 88 days its what stoped me doing mine. I will be honest it scares the heck out of me. I am to old and have to much invested to go to prison for a s&W mp15-p the only ar pistol I own which I got on a whim at the local gun shop to help him out cause he could not sell it and I was already picking up something else. heck throw it on, it will be fun for the kids/grandkids. all because I am past 88 days and its sit on someones desk and its taking to long to process cause nics ends up being down. so here I am stuck with it now. with no course of action since its even called out by name and picture in the FAQ as a SBR. do I sell it off to some body. remove the brace. dont think that will work since it doesnt need the buffer tube to work. so what do people like me and others do..... all the people in states that dont allow sbr. heck if this would have been years ago I would not even be able to file for the free sbr since mo required some form of FFL to have class 3 stuff. this is what I want answered is what do we do. with out the hoopla I just want answers and help. 1. I mean I cant switch the upper. S&W will not sell just a 16 inch upper, or barrel 2. take off the brace....dont know if that will work since the 22 doesnt need the buffer tube to function. it has a fake one. but you cannot remove the tube cause its fake and molded to the lower. 3. file and pray I dont mess up the form, and I get approved in 88 days. 4. sell it to someone and put them in the bind...I cant do this. 5. perm attach a device to bring it up to 16.. which there is only a couple on the market thats over 9 inches. which is really going look stupid. 6.destroy the whole gun..550 bucks gone I am not one of the afrcom rich people. 550 is good money to me. so what do we do... What would our forefathers have done? If you possess the courage mock them to their face, if not lay low. Compliance will only bring further demands. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:19:50 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What would our forefathers have done? If you possess the courage mock them to their face, if not lay low. Compliance will only bring further demands. Well, there is a funny thing about that. The usual story glosses over just how long they put up with not just tyranny, but the British murdering people for no reason. Until there was absolutely no other possible option, and even then they were scared and hoped they could not Go There. But that isn't nearly as dramatic to the untrained eye. And it doesn't serve the purposes of those who want to do nothing at all until the shooting starts and then think they will magically stand up and do something. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:21:55 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, there is a funny thing about that. The usual story glosses over just how long they put up with not just tyranny, but the British murdering people for no reason. Until there was absolutely no other possible option, and even then they were scared and hoped they could not Go There. But that isn't nearly as dramatic to the untrained eye. And it doesn't serve the purposes of those who want to do nothing at all until the shooting starts and then think they will magically stand up and do something. Are you suggesting we are in it's early days? We have tolerated and capitulated over and over. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:22:04 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can be the judge of that for the pistols that you are the "maker" of. I'm pretty sure you aren't the maker of my pistols. So your opinion, like that of the BATFE, is worthless on the matter. I wonder how much precedent there is that the government is obligated to accept an individual's stated intent over the physical evidence. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 12:22:57 PM EST
[#50]
Let’s see what happens within this 120 days. There may be MANY things that change this unconstitutional action or halt it. Circuit courts can be used by the right just as effectively as used by the left. Halt, block, moratorium, all of the above.
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