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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:07:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alleged United inspection.... Keep looking..... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164047/bolts_jpg-3087288.JPG Those bolts could easily have been torqued to spec. It’s possible that they are the wrong bolt for those locations and that they are too long and bottomed out. I’ve seen that on some of the avionics electronics that we produce. Could also be that the bolts are correct, and something is preventing the bolts from fully seating. Still should have been caught with a visual inspection. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:12:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Evening press conference coming up?
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:12:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i want to see if the bottom hinge assemblies are there Not real clear, but I don't see anything looking like a hinge bracket. 
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:13:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i want to see if the bottom hinge assemblies are there Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Backside of the door from the video. Looks like the stops on the right side of the door are all there. http://i.imgur.com/0gYDRcE.jpg The hinges are still on the aircraft. And at least the forward hinge has no signs of the sliding bushing that the United checks found the bolts loose on. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:13:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Evening press conference coming up?
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:15:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i want to see if the bottom hinge assemblies are there Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Backside of the door from the video. Looks like the stops on the right side of the door are all there. http://i.imgur.com/0gYDRcE.jpg Both bottom hinges stayed behind and remain attached to the airplane, you can see them in the photos. What I don't get is how the door lifted up with the two upper locking bolts in place, especially with pressure against the stops helping to hold it in place. What kind of force lifted the door up? |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:18:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Remember this? Counterfeit bolts ain't something new. I remember in the AF at that time we had to look in bench stock and inspect vehicles for them.  NOBODY knew what we were looking for except for non marked bolt heads. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1987/06/25/firms-knowingly-import-bogus-bolts/66a2303c-eadc-4efe-bafb-d6ba50bd0ab8/ Counterfeit aircraft parts aren't something new. I wrote a paper on it as part of my post graduate work with Embry-Riddle, and that was almost 20 years ago. The Chinese were selling engine turban fans and components suspected of coming from salvage and wrecked aircraft with no inspection or certification. That was in addition to just plain fabricating their own copies of new components. Unfortunately, the FAA was at lunch that day with the SEC. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:20:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Both bottom hinges stayed behind and remain attached to the airplane, you can see them in the photos. What I don't get is how the door lifted up with the two upper locking bolts in place, especially with pressure against the stops helping to hold it in place. What kind of force lifted the door up? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Backside of the door from the video. Looks like the stops on the right side of the door are all there. http://i.imgur.com/0gYDRcE.jpg Both bottom hinges stayed behind and remain attached to the airplane, you can see them in the photos. What I don't get is how the door lifted up with the two upper locking bolts in place, especially with pressure against the stops helping to hold it in place. What kind of force lifted the door up? The not-real passenger that no one can remember who vanished from the seat after opening the not-real door?  Kharn |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:20:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not real clear, but I don't see anything looking like a hinge bracket. http://i.imgur.com/Q2119ih.jpg  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:23:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Both bottom hinges stayed behind and remain attached to the airplane, you can see them in the photos. What I don't get is how the door lifted up with the two upper locking bolts in place, especially with pressure against the stops helping to hold it in place. What kind of force lifted the door up? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Backside of the door from the video. Looks like the stops on the right side of the door are all there. http://i.imgur.com/0gYDRcE.jpg Both bottom hinges stayed behind and remain attached to the airplane, you can see them in the photos. What I don't get is how the door lifted up with the two upper locking bolts in place, especially with pressure against the stops helping to hold it in place. What kind of force lifted the door up? |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:24:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, but the point is that QC should catch stuff like this, so who knows what was missed on the incident door plug. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ron White "somebody missed Lugnut day at tire school" If those bolts all fell out and the door plug escaped, wouldn't that bracket still be attached to the bottom of the opening? Yes, but the point is that QC should catch stuff like this, so who knows what was missed on the incident door plug. Hell, I'd be pissed at a tech for presenting this to me half passed. There's only 2 of these doors on this plane, so... now, I want to know what else you've worked on, door man! |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:26:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Wrong thread, woops
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:28:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just speculating, what holds the pin (that goes in the track guide) onto the airplane? Possibly more bolts that came loose? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ron White "somebody missed Lugnut day at tire school" If those bolts all fell out and the door plug escaped, wouldn't that bracket still be attached to the bottom of the opening? If all those bolts fell out on both of the hinge assemblies, in theory as long as the upper guide track locking bolts stayed in place the door will still stay in place because the stop pads are keeping the door from moving outwards unless it is raised. And it cannot raise up if those track guide locking bolts are in place. Just speculating, what holds the pin (that goes in the track guide) onto the airplane? Possibly more bolts that came loose?  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:29:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure the hell looks like the sliding portion of the hinge assembly is still on the door on at least the upper right corner in the pic. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164047/Door1_jpg-3087383.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164047/Q2119ih2_jpg-3087387.JPG Now that you pointed it out, it does look like it's probably there. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:31:01 PM EDT
[#15]
United Airlines finds loose bolts on several Boeing 737 Max 9s after grounding https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/08/united-airlines-737-max-9-inspections-turn-up-loose-bolts.html |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:32:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Those planes will be flying soon. If not, the FAA and other agencies are going to be in big trouble. No one told Nancy Pelosi to sell her Boeing stock!
What the heck is wrong with that door? It looks perfectly good. Time to get those planes back in the air, boys. Where's the duct tape?! Some of the bolts attaching door plugs onto Boeing aircraft in United Airlines' fleet were loose, the carrier confirmed Monday in the wake of the Alaska Airlines blowout. "We have found instances that appear to relate to installation issues in the door plug for example, bolts that needed additional tightening," a United spokesperson told the Daily News in an email. "These findings will be remedied by our Tech Ops team to safely return the aircraft to service." https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/01/08/loose-bolts-door-plugs-united-boeing/ |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:33:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Castle nut with cotter pin. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164047/upper_guide2_jpg-3087389.JPG Track fitting is hi-lok in. The roller fitting is a serrated mating surface. I've seen people fuck those up before (not on these planes). I'm wondering how much movement there is in that plate when loose. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:34:27 PM EDT
[#18]
That'll buff right out
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:42:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Castle nut with cotter pin. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164047/upper_guide2_jpg-3087389.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ron White "somebody missed Lugnut day at tire school" If those bolts all fell out and the door plug escaped, wouldn't that bracket still be attached to the bottom of the opening? If all those bolts fell out on both of the hinge assemblies, in theory as long as the upper guide track locking bolts stayed in place the door will still stay in place because the stop pads are keeping the door from moving outwards unless it is raised. And it cannot raise up if those track guide locking bolts are in place. Just speculating, what holds the pin (that goes in the track guide) onto the airplane? Possibly more bolts that came loose? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164047/upper_guide2_jpg-3087389.JPG That's a pretty shitty cotter pin job.  Here's how I was always shown how to do them (admittedly, rarely ever did them this nicely ) Attached FileKharn |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:46:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryWow. Her coveted MoPed Endorsement really shows through in this briefing. She's an absolute shit-tier briefer. I wonder if the final report will basically reveal that this is what happens when MBAs run an airplane company instead of engineers. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 10:56:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Want to bet it is a cheaper build choice on that? Other doors are supported by the pressurization and will swing out, but require a swing in before they come out. Since this is a plug, I am betting this is a cheaper option instead of having a stronger design in the door frame to support an push out design. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Loose bolts not withstanding Hi…..I’m from the government and i want these doors to swing out……i know you build planes for a living and are really smart and all but…..swing out. Want to bet it is a cheaper build choice on that? Other doors are supported by the pressurization and will swing out, but require a swing in before they come out. Since this is a plug, I am betting this is a cheaper option instead of having a stronger design in the door frame to support an push out design. The overwing exits Pop Out with authority(spring loaded). (A pin automagically locks them at a certain speed or when in Flight mode) This is a nice feature to have, because 1. The people seated at the exits may be old and weak, with no experience, and, 2. It’s difficult to manhandle an old school plug style exit door, inward, then rotate, and Out, or In, and put it on a seat. It would be impossible to do in an emergency with people pressed against you. 3. I think the extra aft fuselage exit would be designed to work like the over-wing.(?) It’s probably been discussed already. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:00:03 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:04:47 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: hmm wouldn't it be the responsibility of the lead or manager to ensure that the staff is on par? If a company is committed to diversity then they owe it to their clients to safeguard their product. It obviously benefits society to invest in minorities but only if minorities can lifted up to a certain standard. and of course it isn't fair to white engineers. life has never been fair. I wonder when we will get away from demographics all together. I watched my son apply for a job the other night-on the application it asked his preferred pronouns, race (he did have the option of declining-which might have been a wise move considering he's straight, white and male). Anyway we're never going to learn to ignore our differences by micromanaging our differences. *ETA* my flight from Orlando FL to Portland is canceled. Not sure how I'm getting home. The leads and managers are the diversity hires that suck at their jobs and get promoted instead of fired. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:05:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:06:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those planes will be flying soon. If not, the FAA and other agencies are going to be in big trouble. No one told Nancy Pelosi to sell her Boeing stock! What the heck is wrong with that door? It looks perfectly good. Time to get those planes back in the air, boys. Where's the duct tape?! Some of the bolts attaching door plugs onto Boeing aircraft in United Airlines' fleet were loose, the carrier confirmed Monday in the wake of the Alaska Airlines blowout. "We have found instances that appear to relate to installation issues in the door plug for example, bolts that needed additional tightening," a United spokesperson told the Daily News in an email. "These findings will be remedied by our Tech Ops team to safely return the aircraft to service." https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/01/08/loose-bolts-door-plugs-united-boeing/ You can have a perfectly sound design, but if the Workers don’t tighten the bolts, that design will fail. The actual job of inspecting and tightening them, Once the problem is known, is fairly straight forward. Hasn’t got a damned thing to do with Pelosi. Does she own any BA? |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:07:44 PM EDT
[#26]
here's the link to the next briefing in about an hour
 NTSB Media Brief - Alaska Airlines Flight 1282 (Jan 8) livestream |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:10:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Good image for showing how the door is held "plug-style" and how the lower hinge slides could have the bolts come out and the door would stay in place via the upper guide fitting locking bolts pictured a page or so ago.
From this position the door would be swung inwards all the way and the 12 "stop fittings" on the door would just pass by the 12 "stop pads" on the fuselage. As the door is moved down to engage the "upper guide fitting" and compress the hinge assist springs at the bottom the stop fittings on the door will now be inboard and against the stop pads on the fuselage and any outward force on the door now is transmitted to the fuselage. The door is not new to the Max series. I know they are on the 737-900ER that started being built in 2007 and just looking there seems to be over 500 in service.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:12:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe it's a can of beer. Is there also a door plug on the right side of the aircraft? Will they be inspecting those too or will they be limiting themselves to the left side only.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is there a can of soda on the right there? Maybe it's a can of beer. Is there also a door plug on the right side of the aircraft? Will they be inspecting those too or will they be limiting themselves to the left side only. Swing out is not a big deal. Fairly convenient for the emergency door configuration. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:13:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote History |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:19:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: United airlines..... How old is that plane and what maintenance has been preformed recently esp. pertaining to that door? Incompetence? Or Sabotage? Or Faulty Engineering issue WTF! |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:23:30 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. That was interesting, but now I'm not understanding why that plug door is even there. If it can't be operated as an emergency exit door from the inside, why even have the door opening that needs a plug in the first place? |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:24:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Deleted
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:25:58 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. That was interesting, but now I'm not understanding why that plug door is even there. If it can't be operated as an emergency exit door from the inside, why even have the door opening that needs a plug in the first place? Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. That was interesting, but now I'm not understanding why that plug door is even there. If it can't be operated as an emergency exit door from the inside, why even have the door opening that needs a plug in the first place? A plug cleans up the inside and eliminates seating pitch for exit at that location. |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:28:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. That was interesting, but now I'm not understanding why that plug door is even there. If it can't be operated as an emergency exit door from the inside, why even have the door opening that needs a plug in the first place? |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:30:38 PM EDT
[#35]
Looks like another 737 max
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:40:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alleged United inspection.... Keep looking..... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164047/bolts_jpg-3087288.JPG Oh shit |
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Posted: 1/8/2024 11:43:04 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The leads and managers are the diversity hires that suck at their jobs and get promoted instead of fired. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: hmm wouldn't it be the responsibility of the lead or manager to ensure that the staff is on par? If a company is committed to diversity then they owe it to their clients to safeguard their product. It obviously benefits society to invest in minorities but only if minorities can lifted up to a certain standard. and of course it isn't fair to white engineers. life has never been fair. I wonder when we will get away from demographics all together. I watched my son apply for a job the other night-on the application it asked his preferred pronouns, race (he did have the option of declining-which might have been a wise move considering he's straight, white and male). Anyway we're never going to learn to ignore our differences by micromanaging our differences. *ETA* my flight from Orlando FL to Portland is canceled. Not sure how I'm getting home. The leads and managers are the diversity hires that suck at their jobs and get promoted instead of fired. I took my first "Diversity" class at Boeing as a manager way back in the mid-90's. Even then it was clear it was a career-killer to oppose or speak out against it. Of course, it was "taught" by a black female AA HR hire. Massive chip on her shoulder. My (anonymous) feedback on the class was: "Anti-White Bullshit". |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 12:38:56 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The overwing exits Pop Out with authority(spring loaded). (A pin automagically locks them at a certain speed or when in Flight mode) This is a nice feature to have, because 1. The people seated at the exits may be old and weak, with no experience, and, 2. It’s difficult to manhandle an old school plug style exit door, inward, then rotate, and Out, or In, and put it on a seat. It would be impossible to do in an emergency with people pressed against you. 3. I think the extra aft fuselage exit would be designed to work like the over-wing.(?) It’s probably been discussed already. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Loose bolts not withstanding Hi…..I’m from the government and i want these doors to swing out……i know you build planes for a living and are really smart and all but…..swing out. Want to bet it is a cheaper build choice on that? Other doors are supported by the pressurization and will swing out, but require a swing in before they come out. Since this is a plug, I am betting this is a cheaper option instead of having a stronger design in the door frame to support an push out design. The overwing exits Pop Out with authority(spring loaded). (A pin automagically locks them at a certain speed or when in Flight mode) This is a nice feature to have, because 1. The people seated at the exits may be old and weak, with no experience, and, 2. It’s difficult to manhandle an old school plug style exit door, inward, then rotate, and Out, or In, and put it on a seat. It would be impossible to do in an emergency with people pressed against you. 3. I think the extra aft fuselage exit would be designed to work like the over-wing.(?) It’s probably been discussed already. I have done it ( bring in doors) in training, it is not easy to maneuver due to the seats, and that is being familiar with how it works, your average person in a cabin fire situation is probably going to take a long time to get it done, if ever. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 12:55:24 AM EDT
[#39]
So apparently the guide tracks in the plug were ‘fractured’. The fractures occurred AFTER the door moved upward so that makes sense considering the tabs were intact.
The locking pins were missing (no surprise there either) and they said that the lab will look closely at each of the holes to determine if the locking pins were there. At least one of the green sliders and the corresponding spring are still missing. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 1:05:02 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So apparently the guide tracks in the plug were 'fractured'. The fractures occurred AFTER the door moved upward so that makes sense considering the tabs were intact. The locking pins were missing (no surprise there either) and they said that the lab will look closely at each of the holes to determine if the locking pins were there. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 1:05:58 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So apparently the guide tracks in the plug were 'fractured'. The fractures occurred AFTER the door moved upward so that makes sense considering the tabs were intact. The locking pins were missing (no surprise there either) and they said that the lab will look closely at each of the holes to determine if the locking pins were there. At least one of the green sliders and the corresponding spring are still missing. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 1:08:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So apparently the guide tracks in the plug were ‘fractured’. The fractures occurred AFTER the door moved upward so that makes sense considering the tabs were intact. The locking pins were missing (no surprise there either) and they said that the lab will look closely at each of the holes to determine if the locking pins were there. At least one of the green sliders and the corresponding spring are still missing. Maybe this aircraft not only had the loose hinge hardware they found while inspecting other examples, but also had missing lock pins in the guide tracks. That would allow the whole door plug to move with the slop in the hinge hardware until the hardware failed. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 1:15:25 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have done it ( bring in doors) in training, it is not easy to maneuver due to the seats, and that is being familiar with how it works, your average person in a cabin fire situation is probably going to take a long time to get it done, if ever. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Loose bolts not withstanding Hi…..I’m from the government and i want these doors to swing out……i know you build planes for a living and are really smart and all but…..swing out. Want to bet it is a cheaper build choice on that? Other doors are supported by the pressurization and will swing out, but require a swing in before they come out. Since this is a plug, I am betting this is a cheaper option instead of having a stronger design in the door frame to support an push out design. The overwing exits Pop Out with authority(spring loaded). (A pin automagically locks them at a certain speed or when in Flight mode) This is a nice feature to have, because 1. The people seated at the exits may be old and weak, with no experience, and, 2. It’s difficult to manhandle an old school plug style exit door, inward, then rotate, and Out, or In, and put it on a seat. It would be impossible to do in an emergency with people pressed against you. 3. I think the extra aft fuselage exit would be designed to work like the over-wing.(?) It’s probably been discussed already. I have done it ( bring in doors) in training, it is not easy to maneuver due to the seats, and that is being familiar with how it works, your average person in a cabin fire situation is probably going to take a long time to get it done, if ever. First time I did it, I wondered how the 70 year old F/A’s were demonstrating it. I’m glad they aren’t like that anymore. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 1:15:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting how after she mentioned that the green slider and spring was missing she sort of brushed it off by saying it wasn't crucial to find them, just nice to have. I’m guessing they can find the reason the slider came off by looking at the door plug, but yeah that seemed odd. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 1:18:15 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two configurations. An emergency exit that is determined by the number of souls the airplane is configured to carry, or a deactivated "plug" door when configured for fewer passengers. A plug cleans up the inside and eliminates seating pitch for exit at that location. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thanks. That was interesting, but now I'm not understanding why that plug door is even there. If it can't be operated as an emergency exit door from the inside, why even have the door opening that needs a plug in the first place? A plug cleans up the inside and eliminates seating pitch for exit at that location. Do Airbuses have the a similar scheme with the blind/blocked exit doors? Do other planes like the 777 or 787? |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 1:36:01 AM EDT
[#46]
Just watched the NTSB briefing which was good info.
The first 20 minutes give all the details. Also mention looking for "witness" marks to see if the locking bolts were installed. NTSB Media Brief - Alaska Airlines Flight 1282 (Jan 8) livestream Good information given for the locking bolts at 17:15 in the video.... very transparent at this point which is good. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 1:54:13 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just watched the NTSB briefing which was good info. The first 20 minutes give all the details. Also mention looking for "witness" marks to see if the locking bolts were installed.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGWLBLb9Pm4Good information given for the locking bolts at 17:15 in the video.... very transparent at this point which is good.  Attached FileSo it seems that the bolts found loose during inspection of the United aircraft and the cause of Alaska door departure seems unrelated. No doubt the United, and possibly the Alaska inspection with "bolts not tightened" are a factor in this incident, they all factor in to weak inspections by Boeing, which are the last line of accountability to the inspection of the airframe before it is delivered to the customer. |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 2:01:22 AM EDT
[#48]
It is all lining up to be a failure of the assembly at Spirit Aerosystems and a final inspection at Boeing that the plug was not installed correctly with the locking bolts and the airframe failed only 2 months into service with Alaskan airlines.
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Posted: 1/9/2024 2:22:49 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First time I did it, I wondered how the 70 year old F/A's were demonstrating it. I'm glad they aren't like that anymore. Eastern or United? |
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Posted: 1/9/2024 3:59:30 AM EDT
[#50]
I wonder if this will mark the end of Calhoun’s tenure as CEO and they’ll hustle in the chick they are grooming to be the next CEO.
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