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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:45:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's NOT get this started. Agreed. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:45:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Are they going to try to run Russia out of SA-400’s?
If I were Poland, I’d be asking for Growlers to replace the MiG’s. TC |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:46:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was kind of my take. Poland thought of a clever way to get NATO planes while it offloads Soviet Commie Trash Plane Garbage. (That last part is just me being snarky; I don't know if MiG's are quality planes or not.  )Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well Poland dropping them off at Ramstein with no backfill. Its up to US and UKRAINE to get them. Poland treading very lightly it seems That was kind of my take. Poland thought of a clever way to get NATO planes while it offloads Soviet Commie Trash Plane Garbage. (That last part is just me being snarky; I don't know if MiG's are quality planes or not. )They are quality planes if the other side doesn’t have an air force. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:46:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We should've been arming UKR 8 years ago. Why? The money would have just been siphoned off by the Dems.  TC |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:47:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And of course we’re paying for the Pole’s F16s? I hope the Poles read the fine print. I can totally see Biden diverting a bunch of clapped out jalopies from target drone duty. And it's not like the commanders in charge of the planes want to reduce their readiness by sending over their best. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:48:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Poland could own the skies now with their F35s MFG Poland doesn’t have 35s. They have 16s. They would like 35s. We have 35s in the AO and other fighters. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:48:23 PM EDT
[#7]
I am not saying these will not be helpful, but I believe it would be MORE helpful to give Ukraine more S-300s (particularly the missiles to replace the ones they've already expended) and more MANPADS.
I don't know whether the Ukrainian pilots are going to be up-to-date on the updated avionics of the MIG29s from Poland, those are not the same as the MIGs that the Ukrainians were flying. Maintenance could be an issue as well, since I don't know how up-to-date on those updated avionics the Ukrainian ground crews are either. Plus, let's not forget that the Ukrainian pilots aren't very good at least not by U.S. standards. They did NOT have that many flight hours before the war in Ukraine broke out and I don't think Ukraine has flight simulators for their pilots to train on so they didn't get a lot of the training that our pilots do on air-to-air combat. In short, don't think that the Ukraine is now going to lay waste to Russia with these planes to the level that U.S. pilots would do.  I guess we'll also see how things go with Russia over this one. When the Russians see those MIGs on their S-400 radars coming in from over the Polish border are they going to think that "NATO has entered the chat?" What happens if those aircraft get blown out of the sky while still over Polish territory by a Russian S-400 missile? Is that then an Article 5 act of war? Would have been better for everyone and cheaper to just ship more S-300 missiles via rail or truck into Ukraine and more MANPADs. The Ukrainians already know how to use those systems and it wouldn't risk any escalation in the conflict by NATO. I think this is another dumb idea by our idiot leader class, but that's me. I think it's being done more for "show" than for practical purposes. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:48:56 PM EDT
[#8]
As mentioned does Ukraine have the munitions to arm them or are the pilots expected to play kamikaze?
I don't like them going to a US base before going to fight ruskis. Just seems like we are getting baited into something president potato does not understand. Other then that things are going to get sporty. Supposedly 13,000 stingers arrived in Kiev yesterday, will they know who to fire them at? |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:48:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a cartel war and we are the luciferian globalists led by Gates,Soros,Fauci,Obama,Clinton,Biden,Bush,Romney, Bezos,Zuckerberg,Klaus Schwab, determined to destroy America and build back better...aka a globalist vassal state. Putin is the other side of the same coin...build back better after you destroy what is... The only way to win is not to play. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A war is nothing more than the transfer of massive quantities of wealth from one party to another. Wars have always been fights for resources. Money is the easiest resource to move around. It's a cartel war and we are the luciferian globalists led by Gates,Soros,Fauci,Obama,Clinton,Biden,Bush,Romney, Bezos,Zuckerberg,Klaus Schwab, determined to destroy America and build back better...aka a globalist vassal state. Putin is the other side of the same coin...build back better after you destroy what is... The only way to win is not to play. Sadly. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:49:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Does Ukraine have a relatively safe airbase still open to refuel and rearm these?
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:49:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MFG Poland doesn’t have 35s. They have 16s. They would like 35s. We have 35s in the AO and other fighters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Poland could own the skies now with their F35s MFG Poland doesn’t have 35s. They have 16s. They would like 35s. We have 35s in the AO and other fighters. Polish 35's are still a few yrs out from being delivered. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:51:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does Ukraine have a relatively safe airbase still open to refuel and rearm these? That's the question that makes people swallow hard. High tech jets require sophisticated airport and maintenance facilities. Any airfield not in Ukraine that is used for takeoffs and landings becomes subject to attack for not remaining neutral. So, to your question--just because the Ukrainians might get fighter planes now--where in the blue blazes do they take off from? |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:52:36 PM EDT
[#13]
I guess this time around the Russians will whack some actual combat aircraft, unlike the MH17 shootdown in 2014.
I don't see this one being worth it for anyone, but I'd be happy to be wrong. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:53:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does Ukraine have a relatively safe airbase still open to refuel and rearm these? Probably. Airbases and runways are notoriously difficult to keep out of action. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:54:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Virtue pole signaling?
US hasn't agreed Eta obviously Poland doesn't want to be targeted sending to Germany. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:54:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Here is the thing though, pay back is a bitch Russia.
The Soviets shipped in MIGs to North Vietnam during the conflict there to be used against the United States of America, and the USA did not use that as a pretext to go to war with the Soviets. So, I don't want to hear any bullshit arguments coming out of Moscow that this is somehow NATO entering the war, that dog don't hunt. If the Russians want to go to WW3 over this than the idiots under Putin better think long and hard before carrying out those orders, but we've got missiles and ours will definitely work better than theirs. When you deal with the Russians sometimes you've got to be willing to go to the brink of nuclear destruction. Those jackasses force us into those positions, which is why we need to get bring down the Russians at some point so they're not constantly holding a gun to our heads. That said, I don't know if these MIG29s are really going to be that fucking helpful and I don't think they're worth the PITA risk it's going to be to take on right now. Be a Hell of a lot smarter and safer for the American people to just ship in more S-300s from the Eastern block nations and more MANPADS. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:56:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the question that makes people swallow hard. High tech jets require sophisticated airport and maintenance facilities. Any airfield not in Ukraine that is used for takeoffs and landings becomes subject to attack for not remaining neutral. So, to your question--just because the Ukrainians might get fighter planes now--where in the blue blazes do they take off from? Putin already said DOOM on anyone hosting airstrikes from outside. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:56:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is the thing though, pay back is a bitch Russia. The Soviets shipped in MIGs to North Vietnam during the conflict there to be used against the United States of America, and the USA did not use that as a pretext to go to war with the Soviets. So, I don't want to hear any bullshit arguments coming out of Moscow that this is somehow NATO entering the war, that dog don't hunt. If the Russians want to go to WW3 over this than the idiots under Putin better think long and hard before carrying out those orders, but we've got missiles and ours will definitely work better than theirs. When you deal with the Russians sometimes you've got to be willing to go to the brink of nuclear destruction. Those jackasses force us into those positions, which is why we need to get bring down the Russians at some point so they're not constantly holding a gun to our heads. That said, I don't know if these MIG29s are really going to be that fucking helpful and I don't think they're worth the PITA risk it's going to be to take on right now. Be a Hell of a lot smarter and safer for the American people to just ship in more S-300s from the Eastern block nations and more MANPADS. Valid point, but this isn't the 1960's. Biden is weak and Putin knows it. We also don't know Putin's mental state. I don't think he's insane as some have speculated, but he may be the grumpy old man tired of kids on his lawn. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:57:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Is this the straw that breaks the camel's back and causes Putin to widen the war to Poland and/or NATO? Does he have the guts to call this enough to start World War III? Oh he has the guts, because he could nuke Kyiv city center, maybe even Warsaw, and you think Biden would launch a retaliatory strike? Deterrence only works when the other guy thinks you'll pull the trigger. What Putin sees is that movie scene where the woman has the bad guy at gunpoint, but she's nervous and shaking, so he walks up to her and takes the gun out of her hand. We are the woman. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:57:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are they going to try to run Russia out of SA-400’s? If I were Poland, I’d be asking for Growlers to replace the MiG’s. TC No need we can just take over their S400s |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:58:51 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh he has the guts, because he could nuke Kyiv city center, maybe even Warsaw, and you think Biden would launch a retaliatory strike? Deterrence only works when the other guy thinks you'll pull the trigger. What Putin sees is that movie scene where the woman has the bad guy at gunpoint, but she's nervous and shaking, so he walks up to her and takes the gun out of her hand. We are the woman. Unfortunately this is the truth. It's pretty sad to contemplate: But we may have to rely on another NATO member with some stones to tell Putin to go get fucked. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:59:01 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is the thing though, pay back is a bitch Russia. The Soviets shipped in MIGs to North Vietnam during the conflict there to be used against the United States of America, and the USA did not use that as a pretext to go to war with the Soviets. So, I don't want to hear any bullshit arguments coming out of Moscow that this is somehow NATO entering the war, that dog don't hunt. If the Russians want to go to WW3 over this than the idiots under Putin better think long and hard before carrying out those orders, but we've got missiles and ours will definitely work better than theirs. When you deal with the Russians sometimes you've got to be willing to go to the brink of nuclear destruction. Those jackasses force us into those positions, which is why we need to get bring down the Russians at some point so they're not constantly holding a gun to our heads. That said, I don't know if these MIG29s are really going to be that fucking helpful and I don't think they're worth the PITA risk it's going to be to take on right now. Be a Hell of a lot smarter and safer for the American people to just ship in more S-300s from the Eastern block nations and more MANPADS. Doesn’t bringing Vietnam into this cede some of the high ground? |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:59:03 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MFG Poland doesn’t have 35s. They have 16s. They would like 35s. We have 35s in the AO and other fighters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Poland could own the skies now with their F35s MFG Poland doesn’t have 35s. They have 16s. They would like 35s. We have 35s in the AO and other fighters. You're right I just checked. 2024 they get them. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:59:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As mentioned does Ukraine have the munitions to arm them or are the pilots expected to play kamikaze? I don't like them going to a US base before going to fight ruskis. Just seems like we are getting baited into something president potato does not understand. Other then that things are going to get sporty. Supposedly 13,000 stingers arrived in Kiev yesterday, will they know who to fire them at? No, nobody is monitoring those Stingers like they did in Afghanistan, there is just no way they're accounting for every single one as accurately as they did the limited number we provided the Afghans in the 1980s. Keep in mind that some Ukrainians are crooked and corrupt as Hell, they're not above turning around and selling shit to third parties even during this conflict if they think they can pocket some money. Very, VERY possible some of these systems get out into the hands of very bad people. Not only do the Ukrainians probably not have the munitions to arm these planes well the stuff they do have are not smart munitions so any ground attacks they perform will almost certainly result in some kind of collateral damage. Plus, this Polish MIG29s are all with updated avionics some of which will probably be torn out and sold, possibly even to the Russians. The Ukraine pilots don't have ANY experience with these updated avionics and neither will any of the Ukrainian ground crews have experience maintaining them. It would have been better to ship in more old Eastern block S-300s via railways or by road into Ukraine. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 4:59:32 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the question that makes people swallow hard. High tech jets require sophisticated airport and maintenance facilities. Any airfield not in Ukraine that is used for takeoffs and landings becomes subject to attack for not remaining neutral. So, to your question--just because the Ukrainians might get fighter planes now--where in the blue blazes do they take off from? UKRAINIAN MIGs Operations are often on public roads and their support is very agile. The USAF is learning this proven process right now. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:00:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Paint them all with Russian markings on all of them. Install transponders so they know who is who. Have fun. Quote HistoryQuoted: Paint them all with Russian markings on all of them. Install transponders so they know who is who. Have fun. Quoted: I bet the US chickens out. Not sure how long random whoever dudes are going to last against whatever air force and anti plane missiles Russia has. Relevant to this discussion:
@15jonshoot |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:01:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doesn’t bringing Vietnam into this cede some of the high ground? How so? North Vietnam was a client state of the Soviets and Ukraine is a client state of the USA. Pretty damn similar and if they get to help their friends how can they say we can't help ours? |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:01:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Just leave the keys in them fueled and ready to fly?
They can't help it if a bus load of Ukrainian pilots shows up and steals them? |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:02:19 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: UKRAINIAN MIGs Operations are often on public roads and their support is very agile. The USAF is learning this proven process right now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's the question that makes people swallow hard. High tech jets require sophisticated airport and maintenance facilities. Any airfield not in Ukraine that is used for takeoffs and landings becomes subject to attack for not remaining neutral. So, to your question--just because the Ukrainians might get fighter planes now--where in the blue blazes do they take off from? UKRAINIAN MIGs Operations are often on public roads and their support is very agile. The USAF is learning this proven process right now. No shit? I'd have thought MiG's might require nicely manicured runways and support that's not that portable. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:02:59 PM EDT
[#30]
If Russia is really having these problems taking Ukraine that once they take Ukraine and go for Poland. Wouldn't Poland just be giving them the anchor shot?
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:03:37 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia can sell them more Replacement Migs after this is over. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:04:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lets get the party started I want a Polish mig as well. Edit: then I could be a jamigalo too.
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:04:58 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:06:06 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: UKRAINIAN MIGs Operations are often on public roads and their support is very agile. The USAF is learning this proven process right now. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I could swear we had this discussion in the other Mig thread and it was stated that Mig29's were specifically designed to fly off sketchy runways? |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:07:50 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Valid point, but this isn't the 1960's. Biden is weak and Putin knows it. We also don't know Putin's mental state. I don't think he's insane as some have speculated, but he may be the grumpy old man tired of kids on his lawn. Plenty of Soviet leaders were off their rocker and a few were a little senile in their old age for sure, but there is no "red button" that Putin can push and just unilaterally launch a nuclear strike with so not only would Putin have to be nuts but all his people under him in the nuclear chain of command who would actually execute his orders have to be nuts. Putin might be cool living what few years are left in his life (he's 69 now) in a bunker, but what about all the people under him? It's one thing to be a "yes" man it's another to just end the world over something as trivial as a couple of MIGs being transferred into Ukraine. Ultimately this transfer is just for show, it will not make a considerable difference. Russia still has more aircraft and if we believe Russian numbers their pilots had more flight hours on average per year than Ukrainian pilots did leading up to this conflict. It would be far more devastating for Russia if Poland, Romania, and other eastern bloc states had sent in additional S-300s. SAMs are what is going to keep Russia from establishing air supremacy not a few fighter jets. As far as attacking Russian units on the ground via air support it's probably useful in a few situations to Ukraine, but in many situations they'll be risking collateral damage since they lack smart munitions and a lot of the fighting is in built up areas with their own civilians. The Russians still have their own IADS as well. SAMs would have been a lot more intelligent to provide, lower risk for NATO to provide, this is kind of just more social media jackassery if you ask me. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:08:38 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I could swear we had this discussion in the other Mig thread and it was stated that Mig29's were specifically designed to fly off sketchy runways? Pretty much everything Combloc is designed/engineered to perform in sketch conditions, because sketch is Combloc normal. They build kick-ass off road trucks for instance, because they suck at building roads. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:08:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How so? North Vietnam was a client state of the Soviets and Ukraine is a client state of the USA. Pretty damn similar and if they get to help their friends how can they say we can't help ours? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Doesn’t bringing Vietnam into this cede some of the high ground? How so? North Vietnam was a client state of the Soviets and Ukraine is a client state of the USA. Pretty damn similar and if they get to help their friends how can they say we can't help ours? Similar would mean no moral high ground. We do it so they do it and so on. Makes all the pearl clutching hypocrite theater. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:08:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No shit? I'd have thought MiG's might require nicely manicured runways and support that's not that portable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's the question that makes people swallow hard. High tech jets require sophisticated airport and maintenance facilities. Any airfield not in Ukraine that is used for takeoffs and landings becomes subject to attack for not remaining neutral. So, to your question--just because the Ukrainians might get fighter planes now--where in the blue blazes do they take off from? UKRAINIAN MIGs Operations are often on public roads and their support is very agile. The USAF is learning this proven process right now. No shit? I'd have thought MiG's might require nicely manicured runways and support that's not that portable. ?? No the 29 even has FOD screens that drop into the intake when the WOW switches are engaged. It prevents shit from the nose tire from going down the intakes. The plane can taxi on Russian airfields. I guess you have never seen pictures of those gravel and grass covered concrete ramps. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:10:00 PM EDT
[#39]
When the louvers over the leading edge are open the intake cut off doors close. They are far from perfect but the MiG 29 is probably exactly what Ukraine needs. A small agile point defense fighter that works on highways or worse. It was designed from the outset for rough field operations. I doubt they much in the way of airfields that have not been hit at least once.
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:11:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I could swear we had this discussion in the other Mig thread and it was stated that Mig29's were specifically designed to fly off sketchy runways? You are right. FYI I am the resident expert on ARFCOM for USAF ACE operations. Agile Combat Employment The USAF is adding this to our tool kit and I have part of the process. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:12:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ?? No the 29 even has FOD screens that drop into the intake when the WOW switches are engaged. It prevents shit from the nose tire from going down the intakes. The plane can taxi on Russian airfields. I guess you have never seen pictures of those gravel and grass covered concrete ramps. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's the question that makes people swallow hard. High tech jets require sophisticated airport and maintenance facilities. Any airfield not in Ukraine that is used for takeoffs and landings becomes subject to attack for not remaining neutral. So, to your question--just because the Ukrainians might get fighter planes now--where in the blue blazes do they take off from? UKRAINIAN MIGs Operations are often on public roads and their support is very agile. The USAF is learning this proven process right now. No shit? I'd have thought MiG's might require nicely manicured runways and support that's not that portable. ?? No the 29 even has FOD screens that drop into the intake when the WOW switches are engaged. It prevents shit from the nose tire from going down the intakes. The plane can taxi on Russian airfields. I guess you have never seen pictures of those gravel and grass covered concrete ramps. I actually have not. I thought jet fighter logistics was jet fighter logistics no matter whose jets they are. I have always thought any jet aircraft had to be treated like a purebred race horse. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:14:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No F35 sweeping the skies clean no care If so, then music.  Conquistador |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:15:02 PM EDT
[#43]
I think we’ll see some fireworks. Prince nebulous in a can. We’re past the point of anything ending in a whimper. We’re nearing a point of no return, I’m thinking.
If a great peacemaker enters the scene in the near future, and claims to be God, that’s a no for me dog. That will be the anti-Christ. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:15:23 PM EDT
[#44]
How will this work? Won’t the Ukrainian pilots need to think in Polish for this to work?
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:15:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Relevant to this discussion:
@15jonshoot |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:15:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are they going to try to run Russia out of SA-400’s? If I were Poland, I’d be asking for Growlers to replace the MiG’s. TC Those big refillable beer jugs? |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:16:52 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good. Russia needs to go home. I don't think Russia will be sent home easily. This is about to get bigger. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:17:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I actually have not. I thought jet fighter logistics was jet fighter logistics no matter whose jets they are. I have always thought any jet aircraft had to be treated like a purebred race horse. Nope, there's a lot of variation there, sometimes with the same type of aircraft. For example, Australia maintains their F/A-18s impeccably. Whereas Canada just doesn't seem to care about maintaining their CF-18s. I've seen one that had mud and salt all over it. 
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:18:20 PM EDT
[#49]
I think we take for granted to how good our JTACs and other ground forces are about coordinating with air support and preventing blue on blue.
I don't think the Ukraine are really set-up to do combined arms that well and they could end up with some friendly fire incidents and due to lack of smart munitions probably some serious ones as well as collateral damage to civilians. North Vietnam was packed with SAMs. North Vietnam relied more on their SAM umbrella than they did on MIGs to intercept. We should be packing Ukraine with SAMs just like the Soviets helped the North Vietnamese to do. Deny Russia air supremacy and then just let the Ukrainian piece meal destroy them on the ground with the ATGMs we've sent them. These idiot Russians can't get more than 90 miles from supply depots before running out of fuel, ammunition, and food anyways so as long as Ukraine can prevent Russia from establishing any logistical hub deeper into the country the Russians will never be able to take the whole of Ukraine. Russian logistics is a joke. A humiliating joke for them. Those idiot purchased cheap Chinese tires that are rotted and go flat over smooth terrain. Their entire campaign should be termed "IFR" for "I follow roads" because apparently their armored units can't even operate that well over the muddy field of Ukraine. The Russians picked the worse possible time to launch their invasion, apparently they don't weather reports in Russia. Their radios are in some cases analogy Baofengs for Pete's sake. Anything that degrades the Russians though is fine by me. Those evil sons of bitches have pointed nuclear missile at everyone and everything I love my entire life. We tried to help them in the 1990's, gave them a shit ton of money, western business investments and then Putin came along and went right back to being a jackass to America. Screw Putin. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 5:19:13 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well Poland dropping them off at Ramstein with no backfill. Its up to US and UKRAINE to get them. Poland treading very lightly it seems They aren't really thrilled about pissing off Russia. |
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