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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:23:56 AM EDT
I had some kids fresh back from basic training and was doing some PMI. I was surprised that a few of them were still being taught (yelled at) that having your magazine resting on the ground is unacceptable and will induce malfunctions. TC 3-22.9 clearly states the exact opposite of this:
 I also made a social media post about actually reading the material the Army puts out. I recieved a reply from a gentleman on the periphery of DEVGRU who informed me that if my mag is on the ground in the prone my firing position sucks. He didn't elaborate further so that brings me here. Can someone fill me on why having the mag on the ground in the prone makes for a shitty prone unsupported firing position? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:26:48 AM EDT
[#1]
Aren't Magpul Ranger Plates designed to be used in that manner.?
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:26:52 AM EDT
[#2]
This is GD. Nobody shoots or owns guns here.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:31:42 AM EDT
[#3]
What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported?
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:33:00 AM EDT
[#4]
The military still teaches how to shoot a rifle?
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:34:40 AM EDT
[#5]
I disagree that using the magazine as a support won't cause malfunctions.
I won't do it and I will advise anyone who asks against it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:34:44 AM EDT
[#6]
We teach our people that it's fine to ground the mag and that the idea it'll cause malfunctions is outdated bullshit.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:42:37 AM EDT
[#7]
When I was still working I was fortunate enough to get to train with some top instructors in the industry, folks with multiple deployments and numerous engagements. Mag in the dirt, utilized as a monopod, was taught. Guns ran and hits were made.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:48:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported? Are you trolling? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:48:16 AM EDT
[#9]
<——-civilian for life but I was taught by my Father and every other class/training I’ve taken NOT to use the magazine as a monopod.
Iirc- Appleseed teaches that using the mag as a support just creates another point of contact that can throw off a shot. However, like one Instructor told me, at the end of the day putting rounds on target is what counts, do what works for you. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:51:00 AM EDT
[#10]
It depends how the tolerances stack up.
I have some uppers that will not function if you monopod the mag with pmags. In that case applying pressure to the mag will cause the feed lips to drag on the bolt. Also my 6.5 Grendel seems pretty picky, anything touching the mags and it won't run. Elander Grendel mags. However in most guns it doesn't seem to be a problem. I was taught in basic training to monopod the mag. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:55:05 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported? It's 1775 and you're using a smoothbore musket to take a redcoat officer from 300 yards. Your elbows and sling are the only support you have. Same rules at Appleseed. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 11:59:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: TC 3-22.9 clearly states the exact opposite of this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/188236/Screenshot_20211218-190411_Adobe_Acrobat-2209336.jpg Can someone fill me on why having the mag on the ground in the prone makes for a shitty prone unsupported firing position? Reading is fo suckas. Ain't nobody got time fo' dat. "Save your 300 Meter rounds for the re-do, Trainee." |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:00:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Wouldn't resting the mag on the ground make it supported?
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:01:24 PM EDT
[#14]
 Talk about being surprised by the subject matter.Thought this was going to be about something else altogether. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:01:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported? When there is nothing around for support? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:03:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Prob need more context to decide what’s right and wrong.
The answer to these questions may be different from someone else and lead to a different conclusion How big is your target and how fast do you need to shoot it? Is your rifle is working properly and in spec? If so resting the mag on the ground won’t affect function. Are you Slimmer people or more Barrel Chested? Are you wearing plates and have a bunch of mag pouches on your chest? Are you laying in water or mud? Appleseed is great but their affinity for 1907 era technology may be clouding their judgement. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:03:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn't resting the mag on the ground make it supported? This |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:04:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn't resting the mag on the ground make it supported? Yes. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:05:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: I had some kids fresh back from basic training and was doing some PMI. I was surprised that a few of them were still being taught (yelled at) that having your magazine resting on the ground is unacceptable and will induce malfunctions. TC 3-22.9 clearly states the exact opposite of this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/188236/Screenshot_20211218-190411_Adobe_Acrobat-2209336.jpg I also made a social media post about actually reading the material the Army puts out. I recieved a reply from a gentleman on the periphery of DEVGRU who informed me that if my mag is on the ground in the prone my firing position sucks. He didn't elaborate further so that brings me here. Can someone fill me on why having the mag on the ground in the prone makes for a shitty prone unsupported firing position? It's an interesting question. My opinion is that depending on the body geometry of the shooter and his gear, you might get better results from a traditional prone position with the elbow directly under the rifle. I don't think using the magazine induces jams. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:08:35 PM EDT
[#20]
I’ve seen both…no issues either way.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:10:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Don't drag your shit through the dirt.
If you can't hold it still take a Xaney. Yer welcomes,... 
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:18:32 PM EDT
[#22]
I am *not* against using the mag as a support but I'd prefer to use my sling as the support because a) I know how to use it properly (thanks Appleseed!), b) I prefer 20-rd mags when I am prone anyway, because c) I don't want the mag of my rifle to be a leverage/hinge point.
Not at all surprised that a military branch has guidelines that are not uniformly followed. Maybe all the brainpower is being dedicated to SHARP and tranny-sensitivity training. 
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:22:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's 1775 and you're using a smoothbore musket to take a redcoat officer from 300 yards. Your elbows and sling are the only support you have. Same rules at Appleseed. Oops. A smoothbore musket wasn't accurate past 70 or 80 yds. for a torso hit, let alone at 300 yds. PS. There were some black powder weapons with rifled barrels in those days and they could take out targets at 3 to 4 times the accuracy limit of the smoothbores. Learned that in Appleseed. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:23:42 PM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:25:18 PM EDT
[#25]
LOL, speak for yourself and most or armchaircom
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aren't Magpul Ranger Plates designed to be used in that manner.? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:26:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oops. A smoothbore musket wasn't accurate past 70 or 80 yds. for a torso hit, let alone at 300 yds. PS. There were some black powder weapons with rifled barrels in those days and they could take out targets at 3 to 4 times the accuracy limit of the smoothbores. Learned that in Appleseed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's 1775 and you're using a smoothbore musket to take a redcoat officer from 300 yards. Your elbows and sling are the only support you have. Same rules at Appleseed. Oops. A smoothbore musket wasn't accurate past 70 or 80 yds. for a torso hit, let alone at 300 yds. PS. There were some black powder weapons with rifled barrels in those days and they could take out targets at 3 to 4 times the accuracy limit of the smoothbores. Learned that in Appleseed. I got the weapon type wrong. The point remains the same. ETA - the Kentucky rifle? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:28:02 PM EDT
[#27]
All the Delta and SF guys I’ve trained with said to absolutely use the magazine as a monopod If your position and kit allows it. If you have a shitty magazine get rid of it.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:31:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Mag on the ground is fine. Shot that way before it was in the manual.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:33:16 PM EDT
[#29]
Even a hasty sling is better than nothing. The older I get the more support I need.
Having been involved in the shooting sports since the early 1980's using a 1907 style sling is second nature. Just because it's an old technique, does not diminish its applicability. IMO trying to shoot any distance unsupported is a fool's errand. Canada adopted training to use the magazine as a monopod, while I have never considered it ideal, if people can use it to good purpose why not? |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:44:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported? Army Rifle Qualification table VI is the scenario that exists. I also teach during my PMIs to shootoff of the magazine, I also do not transition to the block or sandbag for a supported position after the first magazine exchange. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:52:58 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree that using the magazine as a support won't cause malfunctions. I won't do it and I will advise anyone who asks against it. Rifles built to or better than the TDP spec do not allow the magazine to engage the bolt carrier in such a way to cause too much friction with the magazine having pressure applied to the bottom. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:54:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Having been involved in the shooting sports since the early 1980's using a 1907 style sling is second nature. Just because it's an old technique, does not diminish its applicability. i got my distinguished rifleman badge and love the 1907 sling. it's not it's age per se that diminishes it's applicability, but rather the fact that trench warfare isn't used much in modern conflicts. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:56:34 PM EDT
[#33]
My kid just fired at Ft Jackson last month. They ground the mag now with no problems.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:08:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oops. A smoothbore musket wasn't accurate past 70 or 80 yds. for a torso hit, let alone at 300 yds. PS. There were some black powder weapons with rifled barrels in those days and they could take out targets at 3 to 4 times the accuracy limit of the smoothbores. Learned that in Appleseed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's 1775 and you're using a smoothbore musket to take a redcoat officer from 300 yards. Your elbows and sling are the only support you have. Same rules at Appleseed. Oops. A smoothbore musket wasn't accurate past 70 or 80 yds. for a torso hit, let alone at 300 yds. PS. There were some black powder weapons with rifled barrels in those days and they could take out targets at 3 to 4 times the accuracy limit of the smoothbores. Learned that in Appleseed. Yep. Pennsylvania Rifle FTW. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:11:19 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am *not* against using the mag as a support but I'd prefer to use my sling as the support because a) I know how to use it properly (thanks Appleseed!), b) I prefer 20-rd mags when I am prone anyway, because c) I don't want the mag of my rifle to be a leverage/hinge point. Not at all surprised that a military branch has guidelines that are not uniformly followed. Maybe all the brainpower is being dedicated to SHARP and tranny-sensitivity training. How does a man's breasts or a female soldier's penis impact the prone unsupported position? These questions are not adequately addressed in the current FM. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:16:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I got the weapon type wrong. The point remains the same. ETA - the Kentucky rifle? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's 1775 and you're using a smoothbore musket to take a redcoat officer from 300 yards. Your elbows and sling are the only support you have. Same rules at Appleseed. Oops. A smoothbore musket wasn't accurate past 70 or 80 yds. for a torso hit, let alone at 300 yds. PS. There were some black powder weapons with rifled barrels in those days and they could take out targets at 3 to 4 times the accuracy limit of the smoothbores. Learned that in Appleseed. I got the weapon type wrong. The point remains the same. ETA - the Kentucky rifle? Also called the Pennsylvania rifle (probably not by Daniel Boone, though!), yeah. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:18:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i got my distinguished rifleman badge and love the 1907 sling. it's not it's age per se that diminishes it's applicability, but rather the fact that trench warfare isn't used much in modern conflicts. Check your history bro. Hainan Island Campaign, 2023. 1st MarDiv and 10th Mountain failed to breakout of their beachhead after being inserted on the coast in the Phase 2 of the South China Sea War. After all the high-tech theater range missiles and autonomous drones had been expended, and the Chinese released Super Covid, greatly exacerbating supply chain issues, the fighting ground to a virtual halt and both sides dug in deep, prior to the Sino-Indian nuclear exchange anyway. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:18:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does a man's breasts or a female soldier's penis impact the prone unsupported position? These questions are not adequately addressed in the current FM. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am *not* against using the mag as a support but I'd prefer to use my sling as the support because a) I know how to use it properly (thanks Appleseed!), b) I prefer 20-rd mags when I am prone anyway, because c) I don't want the mag of my rifle to be a leverage/hinge point. Not at all surprised that a military branch has guidelines that are not uniformly followed. Maybe all the brainpower is being dedicated to SHARP and tranny-sensitivity training. How does a man's breasts or a female soldier's penis impact the prone unsupported position? These questions are not adequately addressed in the current FM. I'm sure some leftist General hoping to impress Biden et al. is already figuring out a way to revise it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:19:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Yall dont put a harris bipod on all your rifles?
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:21:25 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yall dont put a harris bipod on all your rifles? Gross. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:26:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported? I think that scenario exists but it will be because you want to get your rifle higher off the ground to shoot over an obstruction and you will probably have your forearm held awkwardly as high up as possible with your body in some weird contorted position. I don't think getting in comfortable low prone and lifting the built in magazine/monopod a 1/2" off the ground for a purely administrative PRONE, UNSUPPORTED is going to come up much. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:26:40 PM EDT
[#42]
Sling all the things.
 It really depends on the person. I cannot get low enough in the prone to actually touch the mag to the ground. Too much of a strain on my neck. My 19 yo nephew on the other hand, is as flexible as a noodle and can probably do it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:29:34 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yall dont put a harris bipod on all your rifles? Tower: "assume a good, prone unsupported position" Me: [presses button] "snickt-clunk," [sets bipod grip with legs extended on the ground] |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:31:49 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tower: "assume a good, prone unsupported position" Me: [presses button] "snickt-clunk," [sets bipod grip with legs extended on the ground] Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yall dont put a harris bipod on all your rifles? Tower: "assume a good, prone unsupported position" Me: [presses button] "snickt-clunk," [sets bipod grip with legs extended on the ground] Most of my ARs are really prairie dog guns so it actually makes sense |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:32:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think that scenario exists but it will be because you want to get your rifle higher off the ground to shoot over an obstruction and you will probably have your forearm held awkwardly as high up as possible with your body in some weird contorted position. I don't think getting in comfortable low prone and lifting the built in magazine/monopod a 1/2" off the ground for a purely administrative PRONE, UNSUPPORTED is going to come up much. Being a big fat person impedes magazine-monopod shooting. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 1:41:11 PM EDT
[#46]
I don't think it would be a significant source of malfunctions. It will change POI, though. I seem to recall it's fairly noticeable with AK pattern rifles.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 2:00:48 PM EDT
[#47]
SLING
Any sling, just it your elbow into it! Don't install it on your arm as you would shooting a match, because you will also have to take it back off. The Vickers-type sling is good because it is quick and easy to adjust (tighten/loosen). |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 2:04:48 PM EDT
[#48]
Bottom of the mag catch is squared and positively stops mag from protruding further into the gun.
Could tolerances stack up and cause malfunction? Yes. Is that likely? No. I have a rifle that will accept pmags if they are firmly pushed in. It will absolutely not latch on them if slammed in. Weird shit happens. Use your stuff to figure it out before someone is shooting at you. |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 2:08:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Magazine on the ground for prone unsupported and sitting on your foot for kneeling are two things I used to preach hard. Both are reg, both make you better.
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Posted: 12/19/2021 2:10:10 PM EDT
[#50]
The Army's marksmanship manuals have always been a near-desperate attempt to address and correct misinformation, bad advice, and outright bad training practices that get passed on from person to person.
The only time I have seen success overcoming this is with competitive programs that offer select Soldiers opportunities for more advanced training and experiences or formal training programs actually run by competent groups like the AMU. But, all of this is working against institutional inertia. |
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