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Posted: 8/26/2016 9:58:39 PM EST
[#1]
I thought anyone who was machining, welding or cutting was already supposed to be paying the ITAR fee?
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:01:38 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought anyone who was machining, welding or cutting was already supposed to be paying the ITAR fee? Only if you were manufacturing/exporting. The new "Guidance" letter issued 22/07/2016 redefines who must "Register" and what they consider "Manufacturing". It fucks EVERY Gunsmith in the nation. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:05:27 PM EST
[#3]
I have been seeing local effects of this for over a year now. The powers that be did some trials runs on fucking with gun shops.
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:06:49 PM EST
[#4]
Somehow the goverment alters the word "international" to mean "domestic".
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:07:09 PM EST
[#5]
That was the objective. The objective was to put people out of the gun business.
If you make your living with guns? Well, fuck you I guess. Go starve to death. You should have picked a different career. That's what we do in free countries. We pick careers that we think the government probably won't destroy. Probably. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:10:15 PM EST
[#6]
It affects everything. You can't discuss a multitude of electronic hobbies anymore on open forums.
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:11:08 PM EST
[#7]
Trump is the only way that's going to be reversed.
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:15:19 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It affects everything. You can't discuss a multitude of electronic hobbies anymore on open forums. How so? Can you give any examples? I don't know anything about that side of it. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:17:59 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How so? Can you give any examples? I don't know anything about that side of it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It affects everything. You can't discuss a multitude of electronic hobbies anymore on open forums. How so? Can you give any examples? I don't know anything about that side of it. They tried to put people in jail a decade ago for publishing their own encryption method. Because of ITAR. Clearly, the first amendment doesn't apply to math problems, I guess. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:20:22 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somehow the goverment alters the word "international" to mean "domestic". interstate commerce has meant "everything ever in this history of man" for a long, long time now. Certainly its no more of a stretch for "international" to mean "domestic" |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:21:41 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How so? Can you give any examples? I don't know anything about that side of it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It affects everything. You can't discuss a multitude of electronic hobbies anymore on open forums. How so? Can you give any examples? I don't know anything about that side of it. If you share code related to encryption, or maintenance manuals, (even old ones) for mil radios etc...Hell it's technically illegal to ship a microphone for a 60 year old radio to a buddy in Europe. Amateur radio satellite clubs can't even cooperate with other schools outside the USA and all they are doing is collaborating on education projects. It's subjectively written to be a gun against your head at all times. Ignorance is strength. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:22:17 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Trump is the only way that's going to be reversed. Riiighhht. If he gives us 2A anything, I'll eat my hat. He may not take anything, but he won't give us any ground either. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:23:29 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They tried to put people in jail a decade ago for publishing their own encryption method. Because of ITAR. Clearly, the first amendment doesn't apply to math problems, I guess. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It affects everything. You can't discuss a multitude of electronic hobbies anymore on open forums. How so? Can you give any examples? I don't know anything about that side of it. They tried to put people in jail a decade ago for publishing their own encryption method. Because of ITAR. Clearly, the first amendment doesn't apply to math problems, I guess. For those that don't know. The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) is an American private nonprofit organization that is responsible for coordinating the maintenance and procedures of several databases related to the namespaces of the Internet - thereby ensuring the network's stable and secure operation. ICANN performs the actual technical maintenance work of the central Internet address pools and DNS Root registries pursuant to the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) function contract. It’s make or break for the internet as we know it. Unless Congress acts this summer, the Obama administration will end U.S. protection of the internet, handing authoritarian regimes the power they have long sought to censor the web globally, including in the U.S. Instead of shielding the internet from governments, the plan gives governments new powers. Authoritarian regimes would gain greater influence over the Icann board, and for the first time governments would have a vote on bylaw changes, removal of the board and the budget. The Obama administration knows that the new internet-governance plan offers nothing like the guaranteed open internet under continued U.S. control. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:23:44 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only if you were manufacturing/exporting. The new "Guidance" letter issued 22/07/2016 redefines who must "Register" and what they consider "Manufacturing". It fucks EVERY Gunsmith in the nation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I thought anyone who was machining, welding or cutting was already supposed to be paying the ITAR fee? Only if you were manufacturing/exporting. The new "Guidance" letter issued 22/07/2016 redefines who must "Register" and what they consider "Manufacturing". It fucks EVERY Gunsmith in the nation. Just part of the plan. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:25:01 PM EST
[#15]
so whats next auto mechanic is now a auto maker?
this is a bullshit practice they are doing, there is a bill to defund this and put a stop to it. but I cannot recall the number at the moment. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:26:20 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Riiighhht. If he gives us 2A anything, I'll eat my hat. He may not take anything, but he won't give us any ground either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Trump is the only way that's going to be reversed. Riiighhht. If he gives us 2A anything, I'll eat my hat. He may not take anything, but he won't give us any ground either. The government has decided to become antagonistic toward your rights and continues to poke and prod to see how far they can go before you will enforce them. The longer you suffer in silence, the more the government will reinforce their message: You have no rights. Good luck. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:35:25 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so whats next auto mechanic is now a auto maker? this is a bullshit practice they are doing, there is a bill to defund this and put a stop to it. but I cannot recall the number at the moment. I believe it is HR 829 |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:40:41 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Riiighhht. If he gives us 2A anything, I'll eat my hat. He may not take anything, but he won't give us any ground either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Trump is the only way that's going to be reversed. Riiighhht. If he gives us 2A anything, I'll eat my hat. He may not take anything, but he won't give us any ground either. I don't know about that... He likes to rub noses in poop. I believe he understands that an adversary who is apoplectic negotiates from an inferior position. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:50:45 PM EST
[#19]
Meanwhile, thousands of gunsmiths are still in business around the country, with no intent on stopping business.
Gave up too easily if you ask me. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:56:24 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The government has decided to become antagonistic toward your rights and continues to poke and prod to see how far they can go before you will enforce them. The longer you suffer in silence, the more the government will reinforce their message: You have no rights. Good luck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Trump is the only way that's going to be reversed. Riiighhht. If he gives us 2A anything, I'll eat my hat. He may not take anything, but he won't give us any ground either. The government has decided to become antagonistic toward your rights and continues to poke and prod to see how far they can go before you will enforce them. The longer you suffer in silence, the more the government will reinforce their message: You have no rights. Good luck. Somewhat ironic coming from someone in CA........ |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:57:32 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meanwhile, thousands of gunsmiths are still in business around the country, with no intent on stopping business. Gave up too easily if you ask me. 20 years in PMITA prison sounds fun. 
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:58:11 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somewhat ironic coming from someone in CA........ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Trump is the only way that's going to be reversed. Riiighhht. If he gives us 2A anything, I'll eat my hat. He may not take anything, but he won't give us any ground either. The government has decided to become antagonistic toward your rights and continues to poke and prod to see how far they can go before you will enforce them. The longer you suffer in silence, the more the government will reinforce their message: You have no rights. Good luck. Somewhat ironic coming from someone in CA........ How so? I'm just at the tip of a spear that is in my chest. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:00:01 PM EST
[#23]
ATF should be disbanded
They should be folded into the FBI ITAR.....well, that is something else altogether |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:02:47 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
20 years in PMITA prison sounds fun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Meanwhile, thousands of gunsmiths are still in business around the country, with no intent on stopping business. Gave up too easily if you ask me. 20 years in PMITA prison sounds fun. Who has gone to jail or threatened with jail / arrest by DoS over the new determknations made by them? |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:03:56 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF should be disbanded They should be folded into the FBI ITAR.....well, that is something else altogether Although I agree with your first part, ATF has nothing to do with ITAR. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:09:02 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who has gone to jail or threatened with jail / arrest by DoS over the new determknations made by them? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Meanwhile, thousands of gunsmiths are still in business around the country, with no intent on stopping business. Gave up too easily if you ask me. 20 years in PMITA prison sounds fun. Who has gone to jail or threatened with jail / arrest by DoS over the new determknations made by them? You wanna be the one they make an example of? Up to $1,000,000 in fines plus Club Fed time For many of us, the risk is not worth the reward. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:13:01 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meanwhile, thousands of gunsmiths are still in business around the country, with no intent on stopping business. Gave up too easily if you ask me. This, to hell with the ITAR bs |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:14:43 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meanwhile, thousands of gunsmiths are still in business around the country, with no intent on stopping business. Gave up too easily if you ask me.  |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:36:26 PM EST
[#29]
Getting a barrel cut down and having a flash hider pinned on it will go the way of the dodo. So will removing a pinned FSB, or installing one. Scratch getting a barrel threaded to your choice, too, as the gunsmith has to pay a $2250 annual fee to do that kind of work.
Now consider the guys doing custom 1911 or Glock work. Nope, they have to pay up or stop doing it. What I think we will see is a lot more AR gas blocks that clamp on and AR builders buying parts that are finished only. I think it will put a big crimp in 14.5" pinned barrels being done after the purchase. For AR's it may backfire as makers learn to leave parts more interchangeable with no alterations necessary to modify it. Handgunners not so much unless the makers include that kind of philosophy. Like rear sights in dovetails and front sights replaceable, rather than milled integral. But do stuff like flare a magwell or undercut a trigger guard? ITAR from what I see. So there will be pressure for makers to offer a variety of different options, and Bubba will start working over his guns himself even more as gunsmiths turn the jobs away. You need to be firm with your representatives about getting this stopped. There's no real harm in modifying our firearms and the international implications are actually to send more work out to their factories. It's anti competitive and allows the foreign gun makers leverage over American smiths making alterations after the fact. Just another example of selling our freedom for no gain in security. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:45:55 PM EST
[#30]
So smiths will go underground?
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:49:58 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you share code related to encryption, or maintenance manuals, (even old ones) for mil radios etc...Hell it's technically illegal to ship a microphone for a 60 year old radio to a buddy in Europe. Amateur radio satellite clubs can't even cooperate with other schools outside the USA and all they are doing is collaborating on education projects. It's subjectively written to be a gun against your head at all times. Ignorance is strength. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It affects everything. You can't discuss a multitude of electronic hobbies anymore on open forums. How so? Can you give any examples? I don't know anything about that side of it. If you share code related to encryption, or maintenance manuals, (even old ones) for mil radios etc...Hell it's technically illegal to ship a microphone for a 60 year old radio to a buddy in Europe. Amateur radio satellite clubs can't even cooperate with other schools outside the USA and all they are doing is collaborating on education projects. It's subjectively written to be a gun against your head at all times. Ignorance is strength. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:55:20 PM EST
[#32]
I wrote my rep about this and his office contacted me by phone in about two days. I went over the letter and discussed it with him for about 15 minutes. I got an E-mail a couple of days later stating that he was working with the DOS to get some answers. I figure that is a dead end at this point.
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:59:22 PM EST
[#33]
I need to check up on my local smith, Gary Kimball. He's a Wilson Combat recommended smith that's done great work for me
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:05:39 AM EST
[#34]
Has anyone gotten actual clarification on this? A couple of years ago people were saying websites like this would have to shut down too...
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:14:18 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has anyone gotten actual clarification on this? A couple of years ago people were saying websites like this would have to shut down too... |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:24:30 AM EST
[#36]
I'd like to know where they got their "common and accepted" (or whatever term they used for the) definitions of gun smithing vs manufacturing. Gunsmiths have been improving the actions and accuracy of firearms for as long as there's been firearms.
For all the noise made about M855, I can't believe this decree is getting little more than a grumble. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:33:15 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Give it time.... Obama hands the keys to the Internet over to Globalists in October. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Has anyone gotten actual clarification on this? A couple of years ago people were saying websites like this would have to shut down too... Ohh no, my wallet will keep money in it, I'll not read about gay sons fighting, and I won't want to fap to Taylor Swift's new boobs. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:37:43 AM EST
[#38]
Does this mean I'm SOL if I wanna go to a shop to get night sights installed on my g19/17?
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:42:58 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ohh no, my wallet will keep money in it, I'll not read about gay sons fighting, and I won't want to fap to Taylor Swift's new boobs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Has anyone gotten actual clarification on this? A couple of years ago people were saying websites like this would have to shut down too... Ohh no, my wallet will keep money in it, I'll not read about gay sons fighting, and I won't want to fap to Taylor Swift's new boobs. There's a lot of tech here...not as fun, and not near as many tits, but it's there and they don't like the free flow of information. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:44:21 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Getting a barrel cut down and having a flash hider pinned on it will go the way of the dodo. So will removing a pinned FSB, or installing one. Scratch getting a barrel threaded to your choice, too, as the gunsmith has to pay a $2250 annual fee to do that kind of work. It's ridiculous change only made to hurt the industry, but as far as actually hurting your ability to have the work performed, I doubt it will. It will cut down the options of where to have it done, but a lot of the larger operations doing stuff like this are either already ITAR registered or won't have any problem swinging a couple thousand bucks a year to stay compliant. A small bump in prices will easily cover it if you're doing much work at all. The guys it will kill off are the small time guys who do it on the side or just serve small communities, which is truly sad. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:44:52 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It fucks EVERY Gunsmith in the nation. Well, except for the ones with 07's that were already paying ITAR. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:49:12 AM EST
[#42]
How long until smithing your own gun makes you a gunsmith?
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:49:15 AM EST
[#43]
Sucks, they were one of the few places that would pin a gas block on a nitrided barrel for a decent price.
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:50:35 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a lot of tech here...not as fun, and not near as many tits, but it's there and they don't like the free flow of information. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone gotten actual clarification on this? A couple of years ago people were saying websites like this would have to shut down too... Ohh no, my wallet will keep money in it, I'll not read about gay sons fighting, and I won't want to fap to Taylor Swift's new boobs. There's a lot of tech here...not as fun, and not near as many tits, but it's there and they don't like the free flow of information. The Internet is the 21st century printing press. Revolutions started back in the day because ideas like Thomas Paine's Common Sense and John Locke's Two Treatises of Government reached the masses. We are having a similar wave of information. Now it is also uncovering the corruption of those in high positions of power. Both public and private. Panama Papers, DNC Election Rigging, Clinton Foundation, etc.... |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:52:43 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Found the new regs. Cutting, drilling, and tapping for sight installation is specifically exempted. It's ridiculous change only made to hurt the industry, but as far as actually hurting your ability to have the work performed, I doubt it will. It will cut down the options of where to have it done, but a lot of the larger operations doing stuff like this are either already ITAR registered or won't have any problem swinging a couple thousand bucks a year to stay compliant. A small bump in prices will easily cover it if you're doing much work at all. The guys it will kill off are the small time guys who do it on the side or just serve small communities, which is truly sad. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Getting a barrel cut down and having a flash hider pinned on it will go the way of the dodo. So will removing a pinned FSB, or installing one. Scratch getting a barrel threaded to your choice, too, as the gunsmith has to pay a $2250 annual fee to do that kind of work. It's ridiculous change only made to hurt the industry, but as far as actually hurting your ability to have the work performed, I doubt it will. It will cut down the options of where to have it done, but a lot of the larger operations doing stuff like this are either already ITAR registered or won't have any problem swinging a couple thousand bucks a year to stay compliant. A small bump in prices will easily cover it if you're doing much work at all. The guys it will kill off are the small time guys who do it on the side or just serve small communities, which is truly sad. While I agree that the new ITAR regs are bullshit, for every small time guy worth a damn, there are 50 "gunsmiths" that are fucking up people's shit. Hopefully those guys will give it up because of this and the legitimate small time smiths will see a big enough bump in business to cover ITAR and turn a hefty profit. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 12:55:24 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ATF should be disbanded They should be folded into the FBI ITAR.....well, that is something else altogether |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 1:02:31 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
and then the FBI disbanded Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ATF should be disbanded They should be folded into the FBI ITAR.....well, that is something else altogether James Comey can suck a fat dick. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 1:03:00 AM EST
[#48]
It sucks, but ITAR is $2250 a year. If your business is predicated on.
$2250 a year, you're doing it wrong. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 1:06:48 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Getting a barrel cut down and having a flash hider pinned on it will go the way of the dodo. So will removing a pinned FSB, or installing one. Scratch getting a barrel threaded to your choice, too, as the gunsmith has to pay a $2250 annual fee to do that kind of work. Now consider the guys doing custom 1911 or Glock work. Nope, they have to pay up or stop doing it. What I think we will see is a lot more AR gas blocks that clamp on and AR builders buying parts that are finished only. I think it will put a big crimp in 14.5" pinned barrels being done after the purchase. For AR's it may backfire as makers learn to leave parts more interchangeable with no alterations necessary to modify it. Handgunners not so much unless the makers include that kind of philosophy. Like rear sights in dovetails and front sights replaceable, rather than milled integral. But do stuff like flare a magwell or undercut a trigger guard? ITAR from what I see. So there will be pressure for makers to offer a variety of different options, and Bubba will start working over his guns himself even more as gunsmiths turn the jobs away. You need to be firm with your representatives about getting this stopped. There's no real harm in modifying our firearms and the international implications are actually to send more work out to their factories. It's anti competitive and allows the foreign gun makers leverage over American smiths making alterations after the fact. Just another example of selling our freedom for no gain in security. False. I got my license and went 07 knowing all of this. If 2250 makes or breaks your business, you were terrible anyway. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 1:10:05 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
20 years in PMITA prison sounds fun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Meanwhile, thousands of gunsmiths are still in business around the country, with no intent on stopping business. Gave up too easily if you ask me. 20 years in PMITA prison sounds fun. Faced with that, don't be surprised when someone makes interesting times for the arresting agents. |
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