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Posted: 3/31/2017 3:00:06 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed. But it was all over by then. And I would contend he needed the Brits way more than he needed Rhodesia. For the Brits to let the Smith government "succeed" was a political impossibility. I do think many in State would have preferred "one-man-one-vote-once". I have little confidence in the wisdom of our State Department. I know during the Falklands Reagan had high level people that were pro-Argie, likewise he would have had some that would have wanted to throw Rhodesia under the bus. So I'm not sure how it would have played out. I think it would hinge on what his advisors were saying and to what extent he would have followed it. I'm sure Reagan would have had some advising selling them out. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 3:06:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK may I chime in? I am American first but my mother grew up in Africa and was there till 1979. She grew up in Zambia which was formerly Northern Rhodesia before independence. Had quite a few friends who lived in Southern Rhodesia and served in the army. She lost a few friends along the Zambezi Valley around 1969/1970 from problems with the terrorists. For anyone that ever compares Rhodesia to South Africa they are idiots. I know that is not what has been said in this thread so far but I felt the need to say it because I've heard it from many a liberal. Rhodesia did have Blacks serving right along side whites in the army. You had black members of parliament(Although in the minority) as well as black millionaires. It wasn't a perfect system but it was far from what the left made it out to be. What fucked Rhodesia was outside interference. Pure and simple. Even from the beginning At the start of UDI the British govt was ready to send troops in to squash UDI but it failed because the soldiers would never turn their guns on fellow countrymen. The problem was leading up into the 1980 elections there were massive problems with fraud. The West simply wanted it to be over by any means. Mugabe and ZANU stole the elections. If you want a great example of how much of a evil bastard Mugabe is look up the Matabeleland massacres. He was from Rhodesia and served in the army and had family that was in the government and they fled here when things started to fall apart, he said that they were treated fair and that things were good for blacks for the most part and the biggest worry was being assaulted or killed from member of a different tribe then his. Outside influence and commies is what wrecked everything (his own words) and he is still pissed of having to leave. some of his family moved to SA and they scraped by but said they had it worse there when nelson (may he rot in hell) came into power and they eventually moved here his family moved here with what little personal items and money they could sneak out and started their own businesses here and he is retired now and sells the shirts and stuff for some extra money and to stay busy. I will try to see him this season and ask if I can record him and his stories and post it here. I did stay away from talking about battles as I figured it wasn't the right time nor place for it and he was surprised about what happened over there during that time period. I should tell him to sign up here and start a thread and tell his stories but of course a whole lot of people would say its all bullshit 
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Posted: 3/31/2017 3:15:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Brits kinda needed the US, as well. I don't know how it would have played out, but Reagan could have gotten the Brits to align with his view of things on this issue. I do think many in State would have preferred "one-man-one-vote-once". I have little confidence in the wisdom of our State Department. I know during the Falklands Reagan had high level people that were pro-Argie, likewise he would have had some that would have wanted to throw Rhodesia under the bus. So I'm not sure how it would have played out. I think it would hinge on what his advisors were saying and to what extent he would have followed it. I'm sure Reagan would have had some advising selling them out. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 3:19:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree. Zambia was put in a interesting position. They hosted camps for ZANLA and ZIPRA. But that was about it. Also when Zimbabwe kicked the white farmers out Zambia was one of the nation's to welcome them in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Carter wanted the communists at the table there. Reagan wouldn't have. That is itself is a huge difference. Reagan's central goal was the defeat of the USSR. His policy in Rhodesia would have likely been similar to his policy in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, and Angola. Zambia was put in a interesting position. They hosted camps for ZANLA and ZIPRA. But that was about it. Also when Zimbabwe kicked the white farmers out Zambia was one of the nation's to welcome them in. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 3:23:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I should tell him to sign up here and start a thread and tell his stories but of course a whole lot of people would say its all bullshit
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Posted: 3/31/2017 3:26:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Zambia tried doing shit without Whitey and learned that they failed economically. So they shoved the Dialectic up their ass and said give me money. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 3:48:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup, and thats why they welcomed the whites, they recognized them for the human resources they were. Some days I think overall Africa is starting to figure shit out in some ways and hopefully things will get better over there. And then some days I read about the crazy shit thats going on in SAF, and I'm less hopeful. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Zambia tried doing shit without Whitey and learned that they failed economically. So they shoved the Dialectic up their ass and said give me money. Hell, that's why Katanga tried to split off from the Congo. They knew without Belgians and othr Europeans they wouldn't have the industry and the skill to run said industry. But the USSR through the UN ended that. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 3:56:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Namibia is also the same mindset. SWAPO still runs it but they've left the Marxist dogma for the most part. Also you have Boers now moving to Mozambique for the same reason. They see the industry. Hell, that's why Katanga tried to split off from the Congo. They knew without Belgians and othr Europeans they wouldn't have the industry and the skill to run said industry. But the USSR through the UN ended that. I think main issue with decolonialization in general was that it happened waaay too fast in Africa. In places with populations that were literate and had a reasonable level of culture it generally didn't work out too badly (i.e. parts of Asia (singapore in particular)), India was a bit dicey at first but it also mostly worked out. Africa, with largely illiterate populations and no history of a middle class or self rule was predictably a shit show. But the brits couldn't really afford the empire after the war, especially after India left, Africa was a net loss for them. Had the Brits colonized Africa 100 years prior, or stayed another 50 years or so and tried to actually educate and uplift the populace and build more infrastructure I think it would have worked out differently. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:00:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct... I think main issue with decolonialization in general was that it happened waaay too fast in Africa. In places with populations that were literate and had a reasonable level of culture it generally didn't work out too badly (i.e. parts of Asia (singapore in particular)), India was a bit dicey at first but it also mostly worked out. Africa, with largely illiterate populations and no history of a middle class or self rule was predictably a shit show. But the brits couldn't really afford the empire after the war, especially after India left, Africa was a net loss for them. Had the Brits colonized Africa 100 years prior, or stayed another 50 years or so and tried to actually educate and uplift the populace and build more infrastructure I think it would have worked out differently. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Namibia is also the same mindset. SWAPO still runs it but they've left the Marxist dogma for the most part. Also you have Boers now moving to Mozambique for the same reason. They see the industry. Hell, that's why Katanga tried to split off from the Congo. They knew without Belgians and othr Europeans they wouldn't have the industry and the skill to run said industry. But the USSR through the UN ended that. I think main issue with decolonialization in general was that it happened waaay too fast in Africa. In places with populations that were literate and had a reasonable level of culture it generally didn't work out too badly (i.e. parts of Asia (singapore in particular)), India was a bit dicey at first but it also mostly worked out. Africa, with largely illiterate populations and no history of a middle class or self rule was predictably a shit show. But the brits couldn't really afford the empire after the war, especially after India left, Africa was a net loss for them. Had the Brits colonized Africa 100 years prior, or stayed another 50 years or so and tried to actually educate and uplift the populace and build more infrastructure I think it would have worked out differently. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:05:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
makes sense, how come Nigeria and Kenya didn't devolve into total shit shows though? |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:08:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Erm, Nigeria had an almost immediate religious issue, followed by military coups, tribal persecutions, the biafran war, and then military rule. They've been a democracy since 1999, really, but still have major issues. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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makes sense, how come Nigeria and Kenya didn't devolve into total shit shows though? |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:12:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
makes sense, how come Nigeria and Kenya didn't devolve into total shit shows though? An example is native American cultures. They varied considerably in their level of violence and their adaptability to European culture. I would expect variation in how Africa cultures responded to de-colonization. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:21:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Despite Trump's win I think the U.S. is going to regress into some sort of Aztec-narco dystopia in about 8.7 years.
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:23:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you ask Why?... the ultimate answer, after all the reasons they fall short etc.... is that they will never get there..... Ever. Or, certainly not on any timeline that the rest of the civilized world could underwrite in terms of blood and treasure. So, why ask why? It's much simpler to say, Africa Wins......and you either let them sink into the shit and extract what you can as able or you go in and take it over and tell them, "This is how it is"- Which, more often than not, is the best thing for them, whether that offends notions of equality or not. Some things simply ARE and a never ending search for answers and solutions to intractable questions doesn't get the Gold mined and the vaccines paid for/schools built/roads paved/clean water flowing.... There are other reasons that you've already mentioned (and that are uncomfortable for many people to acknowledge) but tribalism is part of the problem, and probably always will be. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:23:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
makes sense, how come Nigeria and Kenya didn't devolve into total shit shows though? In a way Kenya had more infrastructure investment/education systems at the time relatively speaking it was more developed, but they did have the Mau Mau uprising in the 50's. At the end of it, the major difference is that the British government ended up buying out the white settlers who mostly left, so that avoid alot of nastyness in that sense, but the Indian minority that was also there had alot of problems. Kenyatta wasn't the worst leader either, pro-western, pro-education etc, so that helped initially, but it also fell apart in the 70's with increasing factionalism and the KPU (commies). Moi who succeded him was basically a dictator in the Mugabe mold however, and there was the Wagalla massacre in 84. As for Nigeria, there was that whole civil war episode from 67-70 which killed like a million people so I'd call that a shitshow on even a grander scale, muslim vs christian so it was plenty ugly. And that bit of history is even more complicated than Rhodesia. And these days the have Boko Haram, so there is that as well. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:26:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but tribal identity among black Africans, and how it shapes the political landscape-and thus a nation's' development-is something that we as Americans probably cannot begin to understand. There are other reasons that you've already mentioned (and that are uncomfortable for many people to acknowledge) but tribalism is part of the problem, and probably always will be. IMO most of humanhistory can be simplified down to the statement: "Those guys in the village in the next vally fuck pigs." That's the lowest most common denominator of all of human history. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:28:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Despite Trump's win I think the U.S. is going to regress into some sort of Aztec-narco dystopia in about 8.7 years. 
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:29:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know the answer, but I do know this: there are variations in culture that have significant impact on outcomes. An example is native American cultures. They varied considerably in their level of violence and their adaptability to European culture. I would expect variation in how Africa cultures responded to de-colonization.
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:36:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Europe in many ways is/was tribal too. Look at the balkans, and how thin the veneer of civilization truly is. IMO most of human history can be simplified down to the statement: "Those guys in the village in the next vally fuck pigs." That's the lowest most common denominator of all of human history. If we look at western Europe, they seem to have abandoned tribal-not national-identity in the context that we're discussing long, long ago, and they've benefited from it ever since. Where the Hell is Sylvan, anyway? He's good at these kinds of discussions. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:41:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree, and would say the Balkans are very tribal, although there seems to me to be one common denominator that they share with another part of the world that always seems to be in conflict.... If we look at western Europe, they seem to have abandoned tribal-not national-identity in the context that we're discussing long, long ago, and they've benefited from it ever since. Where the Hell is Sylvan, anyway? He's good at these kinds of discussions. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:45:59 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no shit, did not know that Quote HistoryQuoted:
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makes sense, how come Nigeria and Kenya didn't devolve into total shit shows though? |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 4:48:25 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd suggest reading up on Biafra. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:08:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No that was ok according to our resident "Bro" race baiters. That was blacks killing blacks and therefore just fine and dandy. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:09:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No that was ok according to our resident "Bro" race baiters. That was blacks killing blacks and therefore just fine and dandy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd suggest reading up on Biafra. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:21:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
makes sense, how come Nigeria and Kenya didn't devolve into total shit shows though? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Namibia is also the same mindset. SWAPO still runs it but they've left the Marxist dogma for the most part. Also you have Boers now moving to Mozambique for the same reason. They see the industry. Hell, that's why Katanga tried to split off from the Congo. They knew without Belgians and othr Europeans they wouldn't have the industry and the skill to run said industry. But the USSR through the UN ended that. I think main issue with decolonialization in general was that it happened waaay too fast in Africa. In places with populations that were literate and had a reasonable level of culture it generally didn't work out too badly (i.e. parts of Asia (singapore in particular)), India was a bit dicey at first but it also mostly worked out. Africa, with largely illiterate populations and no history of a middle class or self rule was predictably a shit show. But the brits couldn't really afford the empire after the war, especially after India left, Africa was a net loss for them. Had the Brits colonized Africa 100 years prior, or stayed another 50 years or so and tried to actually educate and uplift the populace and build more infrastructure I think it would have worked out differently. Kenya has become a total shit show too. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:26:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So oppression of Blacks is okay if it might stops the oppression of whites in the future? |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:28:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except for all the white mercs involved Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd suggest reading up on Biafra. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:32:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except for all the white mercs involved Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd suggest reading up on Biafra. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:35:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derp. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:35:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah thats right, that will have to be their angle.... |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 5:55:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Europe abandoned Rhodesia like an addict abandons its infant. Very sad.
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Posted: 3/31/2017 6:07:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
None, yourself? Are you going to argue that Sub Saharan Africans are not capable of self goverment and that the white minority were doing infact doing them a favor? The comcept of the White Mans Burden has been out of favor for about century now, but maybe you can bring it back. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 6:15:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Is this when the Elim Mission massacre happened?
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Posted: 3/31/2017 6:23:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Rhodesian Family Lee Enfields in Rhodesia 
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Posted: 3/31/2017 6:32:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
South Africa was not a bloodless transformation. The ANC and SWAPO killed people left and right. Terrorist bombings, brush wars in South West Africa, the intervention of Cuba in Angola, etc.... Reality, absent revisionist history paints a whole other picture..... We the members of the Umkhonto have pledged ourselves to kill them — kill the whites.” lyrics from the anthem of Umkhonto we Sizwe, or “Spear of the Nation.” The organization is better known as the MK, the military wing of the Marxist African National Congress (ANC). That is the TERRORIST GROUP ANC, whos military wing was founded and commanded by none other than NELSON MANDELA Mandela's terrorist group was responsible for : The Church Street bombing was a car bomb attack on 20 May 1983 in the South African capital Pretoria by Umkhonto we Sizwe, the military wing of the African National Congress. The bombing killed 19, including two perpetrators, and wounded 217. They killed mostly civilians. Ronnie Kasrils. A Soviet-trained terrorist who helped Mandela found the MK, Kasrils was a member of the Central Committee of the South African Communist Party. So was Mandela. Yet here Mandela is remembered (and portrayed in schools) as some sort of happy, hugs giving, saint, who effected change through non violent resistance to the evil white men... Give me a break. 
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Posted: 3/31/2017 6:37:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your attempt to skirt the COC and attack me is really cowardly. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 6:39:01 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm applying the exponential formula, not the compound interest formula, because that's how population growth works. People or bacteria, either way they expand exponentially. Colonialism increased the resources available, leading to a population explosion. Feel free to read up on it. Exponential growth formula Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm applying the exponential formula, not the compound interest formula, because that's how population growth works. People or bacteria, either way they expand exponentially. Colonialism increased the resources available, leading to a population explosion. Feel free to read up on it. Exponential growth formula Your link shows the number of migrant workers topping out somewhere around a quarter million, so thanks for helping to prove my point: that the overwhelming majority of the blacks in Rhodesia were not immigrants. We're only having this discussion because the Rhodesians failed to replace the culture of the natives. They used tactics similar to ours while neglecting the fact that ours only worked because we vastly outnumbered the natives. Perhaps they might have been successful if they had instead accepted the fact that a shift in the balance of power was inevitable and had started working towards it instead of clinging to white dominance. The order of cultures in the Zimbabwe region would be original tribal -> matebele tribal -> colonial -> white led independent -> post colonial mao inspired semi tribal shithole During which of those periods of time did the quality of life, including freedom increase the most? As has been demonstrated in this thread, the Rhodesian were working towards that. They just weren't doing it fast enough to assuage the feels of people like you. The fact that thousands of Rhodesian Blacks volunteered to fight for the white government is an observable fact that nullifies whatever you think you know about Rhodesia. 
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Posted: 3/31/2017 6:51:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this when the Elim Mission massacre happened? In June 1978, terrorists killed 8 British missionaries at Elim Mission. They also killed 4 young children and a 3 week old baby. Fucking savages. A shining example of Real Racism that doesn't fit BroBob's "It is all the white man's fault" agenda.... http://4freedoms.com/group/Africa/forum/topics/a-hard-look-at-racism-warning-graphic |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 7:09:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bro, with all due respect you are the one posting Derpy shit all up in this thread. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 7:11:24 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Elim Mission Massacre: In June 1978, terrorists killed 8 British missionaries at Elim Mission. They also killed 4 young children and a 3 week old baby. Fucking savages. A shining example of Real Racism that doesn't fit BroBob's "It is all the white man's fault" agenda.... http://4freedoms.com/group/Africa/forum/topics/a-hard-look-at-racism-warning-graphic Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is this when the Elim Mission massacre happened? In June 1978, terrorists killed 8 British missionaries at Elim Mission. They also killed 4 young children and a 3 week old baby. Fucking savages. A shining example of Real Racism that doesn't fit BroBob's "It is all the white man's fault" agenda.... http://4freedoms.com/group/Africa/forum/topics/a-hard-look-at-racism-warning-graphic Air Rhodesia Flight 825 Air Rhodesia Flight 825 was a scheduled passenger flight that was shot down by the Zimbabwe People's Revolutionary Army (ZIPRA) on 3 September 1978, during the Rhodesian Bush War. The aircraft involved, a Vickers Viscount named the Hunyani, was flying the last leg of Air Rhodesia's regular scheduled service from Victoria Falls to the capital Salisbury, via the resort town of Kariba. Soon after Flight 825 took off, a group of ZIPRA guerrillas scored a direct hit on its starboard wing with a Soviet-made Strela-2 surface-to-air infrared homing missile, critically damaging the aircraft and forcing an emergency landing. An attempted belly landing in a cotton field just west of Karoi was foiled by a ditch, which caused the plane to cartwheel and break up. Of the 52 passengers and four crew, 38 died in the crash; the insurgents then approached the wreckage, rounded up the 10 survivors they could see and massacred them with automatic gunfire. Three passengers survived by hiding in the surrounding bush, while a further five lived because they had gone to look for water before the guerrillas arrived. Reports viewing the attack negatively appeared in international journals such as Time magazine, but there was almost no acknowledgement of it by overseas governments, much to the Rhodesian government's indignation. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 7:36:18 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is how population growth works in a closed system where fecundity, mortality, migration and carrying capacity are not issues. You are using math that assumes migration is not an issue in order to make the argument that migration is not an issue. While any fool can see that a 3 fold population increase during colonization compared to a one one fold increase post colonization is due to something other than natural population growth. I don't think you read the link, table 2.11 clearly shows almost a half a million employed, male, foreign blacks in Rhodesia. (not counting women, children or unemployed) Foreign born blacks made up about half the work force during most of the colonial period. During the bush war it was about 22% If you don't think that is significant then I don't know what to tell you. The Rhodesians certainly replaced the tribal culture with their own, they used tactics quite a bit more mild than our own. We didn't outnumber the native Americans, we killed them off. The order of cultures in the Zimbabwe region would be original tribal -> matebele tribal -> colonial -> white led independent -> post colonial mao inspired semi tribal shithole During which of those periods of time did the quality of life, including freedom increase the most? As has been demonstrated in this thread, the Rhodesian were working towards that. They just weren't doing it fast enough to assuage the feels of people like you. The fact that thousands of Rhodesian Blacks volunteered to fight for the white government is an observable fact that nullifies whatever you think you know about Rhodesia. http://www.rhodesian.com.au/images/WH%20RAR%20MAG.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm applying the exponential formula, not the compound interest formula, because that's how population growth works. People or bacteria, either way they expand exponentially. Colonialism increased the resources available, leading to a population explosion. Feel free to read up on it. Exponential growth formula Your link shows the number of migrant workers topping out somewhere around a quarter million, so thanks for helping to prove my point: that the overwhelming majority of the blacks in Rhodesia were not immigrants. We're only having this discussion because the Rhodesians failed to replace the culture of the natives. They used tactics similar to ours while neglecting the fact that ours only worked because we vastly outnumbered the natives. Perhaps they might have been successful if they had instead accepted the fact that a shift in the balance of power was inevitable and had started working towards it instead of clinging to white dominance. The order of cultures in the Zimbabwe region would be original tribal -> matebele tribal -> colonial -> white led independent -> post colonial mao inspired semi tribal shithole During which of those periods of time did the quality of life, including freedom increase the most? As has been demonstrated in this thread, the Rhodesian were working towards that. They just weren't doing it fast enough to assuage the feels of people like you. The fact that thousands of Rhodesian Blacks volunteered to fight for the white government is an observable fact that nullifies whatever you think you know about Rhodesia. http://www.rhodesian.com.au/images/WH%20RAR%20MAG.jpg My feels have no bearing on the subject. What mattered were the feels of 97% of the country, and enough of them felt like the whites were never really going to let then have a seat at the table. Parse it however you want, the whites lost the strategic battle despite their tactical brilliance. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 7:48:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derpy shit like calling someone ignorant while making a basic factual error about the history of Rhodesia in the same post? |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 8:24:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what i have read most of the factual errors have been on your end. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 8:53:55 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You might want to look a little closer at table 2.11. It shows a half million employed blacks, with half being foreign born and half being native. As I said, the immigrant worker population peaked at about a quarter million during that time period. Obviously that's a significant number, but the original point of our disagreement, the idea that most of Rhodesia's blacks were immigrants, is clearly false. Why was the population exploding during the colonial era and stagnant after the transition to black rule? Because the colonists were better at providing food, water, and health care. It's that simple. My feels have no bearing on the subject. What mattered were the feels of 97% of the country, and enough of them felt like the whites were never really going to let then have a seat at the table. Parse it however you want, the whites lost the strategic battle despite their tactical brilliance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm applying the exponential formula, not the compound interest formula, because that's how population growth works. People or bacteria, either way they expand exponentially. Colonialism increased the resources available, leading to a population explosion. Feel free to read up on it. Exponential growth formula Your link shows the number of migrant workers topping out somewhere around a quarter million, so thanks for helping to prove my point: that the overwhelming majority of the blacks in Rhodesia were not immigrants. We're only having this discussion because the Rhodesians failed to replace the culture of the natives. They used tactics similar to ours while neglecting the fact that ours only worked because we vastly outnumbered the natives. Perhaps they might have been successful if they had instead accepted the fact that a shift in the balance of power was inevitable and had started working towards it instead of clinging to white dominance. The order of cultures in the Zimbabwe region would be original tribal -> matebele tribal -> colonial -> white led independent -> post colonial mao inspired semi tribal shithole During which of those periods of time did the quality of life, including freedom increase the most? As has been demonstrated in this thread, the Rhodesian were working towards that. They just weren't doing it fast enough to assuage the feels of people like you. The fact that thousands of Rhodesian Blacks volunteered to fight for the white government is an observable fact that nullifies whatever you think you know about Rhodesia. http://www.rhodesian.com.au/images/WH%20RAR%20MAG.jpg My feels have no bearing on the subject. What mattered were the feels of 97% of the country, and enough of them felt like the whites were never really going to let then have a seat at the table. Parse it however you want, the whites lost the strategic battle despite their tactical brilliance. If whites had wanted to be absolutely tyrannical like Mugabe they could have withheld medicine and food assistance to the tribal areas and just waited it out. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 8:57:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Just to break up the tension, I think this thread needs some para goodness.
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Posted: 3/31/2017 8:59:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And how much of that 97% would have survived if it hadn't been for modern medicine and agricultural practices. The bottom line is had Europeans not colonized the area the native population would never have been able to grow past the carrying capacity of the land. Famine and disease would have taken a severe toll, absent international assistance to most of Africa it's a safe assumption the population would shrink dramatically. If whites had wanted to be absolutely tyrannical like Mugabe they could have withheld medicine and food assistance to the tribal areas and just waited it out. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 9:56:01 PM EDT
[#47]
I've been fascinated by Africa since I was a kid growing up in the 60's and 70's. Me and my buddies as young teens planned to join the Marines, do a few years and then go join the Rhodesian Army ("Be a Man Among Men!").
 However, Rhodesia fell before we graduated H.S. We still joined the Marines and it took me a few years to eventually make it to Africa. I spent 3 months in Somalia in 92-93. I got to travel the length and the breadth of Somalia and would love to go back some day. I really need to dig out my photo albums and scan the pictures in. I shot a few dozen rolls of film and have some good pictures of the country.
Somalia was much like Iraq in one manner, the people in the countryside were wonderful, friendly people; the people in the cities however were a bunch of slimy, greedy fucks.
In the last few months I have been on a binge, reading everything I could get my hands on concerning the African Bush Wars. I've filled my Kindle with books and have bought most of the 'Africa @ War' series. I'm reading 'Iron Fist From The Sea: South Africa's Seaborne Raiders 1978-1988' right now and it's pretty in depth about South Africa’s 4 Reconnaissance Commando Regiment. Here are the books I found so far: 
'Masodja' came with a DVD with a great documentary on it. I have also bought the DVD documentary's 'Africa Adiou' and 'Mau Mau'. I'm still trying to find a copy of 'Pamwe Chete' for less than a fortune. I'm also open to suggestions for further reading, so post good books to read. I've also found a bunch of websites with great articles online so put up some links too.
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Posted: 3/31/2017 9:57:18 PM EDT
[#48]
How about some period appropriate Rhodesian rock and roll.
 Watch Out! |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 10:43:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been fascinated by Africa since I was a kid growing up in the 60's and 70's. Me and my buddies as young teens planned to join the Marines, do a few years and then go join the Rhodesian Army ("Be a Man Among Men!"). However, Rhodesia fell before we graduated H.S. We still joined the Marines and it took me a few years to eventually make it to Africa. I spent 3 months in Somalia in 92-93. I got to travel the length and the breadth of Somalia and would love to go back some day. I really need to dig out my photo albums and scan the pictures in. I shot a few dozen rolls of film and have some good pictures of the country.
Somalia was much like Iraq in one manner, the people in the countryside were wonderful, friendly people; the people in the cities however were a bunch of slimy, greedy fucks.
In the last few months I have been on a binge, reading everything I could get my hands on concerning the African Bush Wars. I've filled my Kindle with books and have bought most of the 'Africa @ War' series. I'm reading 'Iron Fist From The Sea: South Africa's Seaborne Raiders 1978-1988' right now and it's pretty in depth about South Africa’s 4 Reconnaissance Commando Regiment. Here are the books I found so far: http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/286099/Africa-at-War-178314.jpg http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/286099/Africa-at-War-2-178315.jpg 'Masodja' came with a DVD with a great documentary on it. I have also bought the DVD documentary's 'Africa Adiou' and 'Mau Mau'. I'm still trying to find a copy of 'Pamwe Chete' for less than a fortune. I'm also open to suggestions for further reading, so post good books to read. I've also found a bunch of websites with great articles online so put up some links too.Biafra, Katanga, Rhodesia, South Africa, South West Africa, Portuguese Angola and Mozambique, and so much more. There is so much there to experience and yet it is still a quagmire of tribalism and butchery. The resources alone...... Sigh..... I have a heavy heart when I think of the places that have been sold out to Leftist Dogma by the West and worse, places that have been puppets of the East. Colonization was the best thing that happened to Africa as a whole. And the way decolonization was done was the worst. |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 11:52:18 PM EDT
[#50]
I also have three co-workers that are from Africa. Two are from South Africa and one is from Kenya. It's cool to talk to them about where they're from and see pictures from there.
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