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I thought this was the Judas?
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Worth a watch.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioM5NZ-fwtI
Fuck them both until they do the right thing and leave IL.  |
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We have seen companies make mistakes in the past including Colt and Ruger. We have supported those that led the good fight and turned on those that underestimated us.
To win me back I expect RRA and SA to show they are working to be more transparent on what happened and prove they are on all of our side. They know how to do that on their own but if I were them NRAs American Rifleman and the various forums is a good place to start. RRA was always a strong supporter of our rights, so I certainly found the stories shocking. I hope for the best but as a customer I am looking to RRA to win me back or I'll buy elsewhere. I don't own a SA and have no plans to do so they are a non-issue to me personally but I used to buy a lot or RRA stuff. |
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Someone explain to me how this is NOT extortion I mentioned it in the lock thread, several pages back, some were shocked by this, I was not (regarding the pay to play/meet). As a general rule money talks. |
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Thanks Goatboy for putting into words that explain things better for me, and the stand in how ARFCOM is handling this shit storm. I'm sure it was a hard decision to make.
I'm sure RRA and SA are regretful in their decision of who they hired, but they shouldn't of let that person have such a long leash to begin with. Now, the shooting world will show them what such actions will cost them. |
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Why would you forgive them for fucking gun owners in IL then running like cockroaches across the border? You going to forgive them if they help pass anti gun legislation in YOUR state? If you think they are dirty, and lowdown, what the fuck does moving have to do with anything ? |
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But GB, Jay Keller wasn't fired until Tuesday May 2 and I have already proved that the manufacturers involved tried to pull this off once before, on May 27, 2016. And I provided the transcript from the IL House floor the day the roll call vote shot it down. That was a year ago and I am pretty sure this was all put in motion in JANUARY 2016 over fourteen months ago. Have you asked RRA and SA to explain that? From the transcript of 5/27/2016 page 7: "This Amendment put in a lot of work. The reason it is #6 is because we made sure that we took everybody's considerations into language. I'd be happy to go over, briefly, what those changes were, if you'll bear with me a second while I pull that up. Okay. So… we took in… making sure we added additional exemptions, we put in the manufacturers of firearms are exempt, and that is, in fact, one of the reasons we had so many making sure that we listen to their language and put their language in there directly. We also put exemptions in here for those that were selling off parts or all of their collections." Here's a link to the actual transcript: Illinois Legislature 5/27/2016 House Bill 1016 roll call vote Sorry, while I am not sure about RRAs involvement, Denny Reese the CEO and owner of SA is/was directly involved in this. |
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I cannot explain how it is not, but it is legal and has been going on for a long long time. I mentioned it in the lock thread, several pages back, some were shocked by this, I was not (regarding the pay to play/meet). As a general rule money talks. |
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It's not so much that they donated money to get heard it's who they gave money to. It's like giving money to Obama and expecting him to come out against Muslims. It's a fucking waste of time and resources and your giving money to your biggest enemy. Madigan and Cullerton are in the pocket of Bloomberg and are as rabidly anti gun as any politician in the country. Every bit as bad as Feinstien and Shumer I was just addressing his question about extortion, this happens in damn near all politics, state and federal and many industries who want to get something done. |
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I also spent time speaking to a number of lobbyists, across different states, in regards to donations to speak to representatives. In the case of IFMA, there were donations made to anti gun politicians, which folks have questioned. From what I was able to learn, it is commonplace to have to "pay" for your voice to be heard. Most often it's in smaller amounts, but I did hear that the amounts "required" can be quite staggering. Understand that this is JUST to be able to discuss their lobby's position and try to convince them of how their vote could impact business and communities in the state. Since I did not speak with Keller, I can not say this is what happened with IFMA's donations, but I find it extremely likely that the donations in question were for this exact purpose. Knowing his strength was in reaching across the aisle, it makes even more sense that he would do everything in his power to try to help fight anti gun laws by trying to sway a few extra votes. I understand why they would talk ($$) to any of the undecided or neutral politicians and hope to sway them. How exactly does SA or RRA justify donating tens of thousands of dollars to enemies like John Cullerton and Michael Madigan  Directly funding an openly hostile enemy of the 2A doesn't make sense, unless they knew in advance that it would benefit them.
If they truly are as innocent & ignorant as they claim why would SA and RRA help the very people trying to destroy them? |
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Silence is consent. Fuck him, and fuck everyone involved. Quoted:
In a March meeting over SB-1657, a bill with wide impact to Illinois gun owners, Keller stated that if manufacturers (all manufacturers in the state) were given an exemption, the IFMA would go silent at the vote. I have my doubts as to how ignorant involved parties actually were to it all, but that is pure speculation on my behalf. Site ownership taking a stand on the issue based upon the involved parties actions and not their words is IMHO, an act of unwavering solidarity with the 2nd amendment and it's supporters. |
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LOL. Absolute Bullshit. Again, a company knows without a doubt what its own lobbyists do. They knew damn well. Playing the "I was ignorant and had no intent" bullshit is played out. This little group they founded was theirs, it was their guy and their money. It's not like they were members of some giant trade group with thousands of members and hundreds of employees. It was like 5 fucking people! 
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Thanks Goatboy. We eat our own around here... |
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I appreciate Goatboy mediating and moderating a difficult dam break. That being said, if I was trying to engineer a carve out for my business and manufacture somewhat plausible deniability so that I could have my cake and hope to damage control my business into eating it too, this would pretty much be how I would attempt it.
You have a Naperville lobbyist to blame, it wasn't totally your fault HE WENT ROGUE. Not buying it. Sorry not sorry. Also, not buying the M1a I've been lusting after for a long time. |
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GB- thanks for the back story and digging in to this.
Do I believe RRA or SA are victims of a rogue lobbyist? I'm sorry. You don't hire a lobbyist or anybody who speaks on your behalf and not make sure they are saying what you want said. The 'my dog ate my homework' type excuse is hard to swallow. The only Springfield I own was made in December, 1941. I won't own another or a RRA. |
| Whatever the level of responsibility, I think that this will send a message to other gun companies to watch very carefully who they hire to represent them. I am waiting for this to settle down and will watch whether RRA and SA help us get this bill stopped. I may change my mind whether to buy SA or RRA products if this was a genuine screwup or what. I went to IGOLD, I belong to GSL, ISRA, and of course the NRA. |
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This has blown my mind every time it gets mentioned. If you think they are dirty, and lowdown, what the fuck does moving have to do with anything ? Quoted:
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Why would you forgive them for fucking gun owners in IL then running like cockroaches across the border? You going to forgive them if they help pass anti gun legislation in YOUR state? If you think they are dirty, and lowdown, what the fuck does moving have to do with anything ? 
ETA: Self sacrifice is the only way the brands are going to survive. That's how Ruger and S&W won people back, a change of leadership. The current leadership is either corrupt or fucking retarded. Neither is an admirable trait for someone in charge of producing weapons. |
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Why would you forgive them for fucking gun owners in IL then running like cockroaches across the border? You going to forgive them if they help pass anti gun legislation in YOUR state? Quoted:
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Worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioM5NZ-fwtI
Fuck them both until they do the right thing and leave IL. |
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I appreciate the update.
The problem I see is that lobbyists are supposed to benefit their employers. If you are an anti-gunner looking at the big picture this is a big win. Exempting the manufacturers is not a big deal if you can cut Their retailers. No sales outlets means a bankrupt supplier. Keller was definitely not looking out for his employers interests. |
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GB- thanks for the back story and digging in to this. Do I believe RRA or SA are victims of a rogue lobbyist? I'm sorry. You don't hire a lobbyist or anybody who speaks on your behalf and not make sure they are saying what you want said. The 'my dog ate my homework' type excuse is hard to swallow. The only Springfield I own was made in December, 1941. I won't own another or a RRA. They are NOT the same company or are in any way related. |
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Thank you @BudMan52 . Just read through it and that is pretty damming information for the whole lot. Quoted:
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But GB, Jay Keller wasn't fired until Tuesday May 2 and I have already proved that the manufacturers involved tried to pull this off once before, on May 27, 2016. And I provided the transcript from the IL House floor the day the roll call vote shot it down. That was a year ago and I am pretty sure this was all put in motion in JANUARY 2016 over fourteen months ago. Have you asked RRA and SA to explain that? From the transcript of 5/27/2016 page 7: "This Amendment put in a lot of work. The reason it is #6 is because we made sure that we took everybody's considerations into language. I'd be happy to go over, briefly, what those changes were, if you'll bear with me a second while I pull that up. Okay. So… we took in… making sure we added additional exemptions, we put in the manufacturers of firearms are exempt, and that is, in fact, one of the reasons we had so many making sure that we listen to their language and put their language in there directly. We also put exemptions in here for those that were selling off parts or all of their collections." Here's a link to the actual transcript: Illinois Legislature 5/27/2016 House Bill 1016 roll call vote Sorry, while I am not sure about RRAs involvement, Denny Reese the CEO and owner of SA is/was directly involved in this. |
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Thanks, GB.
Well reasoned, and well-researched perspective. I got involved in local and state politics as soon as I was eligible. I caucused at the local level, and went to the state convention. Politics is a dirty, back-stabbing business sometimes, and it is hard to stay clean. I saw good folks who got stabbed in the back by folks trying to "climb the ladder" instead of trying to do the right thing for, "the people." I already knew that it could be a dirty, messy business. Illinois is almost completely controlled by anti-gun Democrats. Any politicking in Illinois is going to involve dealing with anti-gun, open-borders Democrats. Where I draw the line... And where ethical lines get crossed in relation to gun rights is *paying* anti-gun, open-borders Democrats. Politicking, meeting-with... Understandable in a state controlled by Chicago Democrats. No way around it, frankly. Paying? Paying money to anti-gun, open-borders Democrats? Now I have issues. Now my radar is going-off. Maybe they honestly had absolutely no idea. Maybe they let their negotiators off the chain. Maybe they let their lobbyists off the reservation. Maybe. That is poor business. And I do not believe RRA or Springfield. I think they got too cozy, and too comfortable in the "swamp" dealing with politicians and getting carve-outs... Horrible situation all-around. Horrible, nasty business the swamp is. |
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Quoted:The biggest issue here was that he was not a firearm guy and did not have history to fall back on. |
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@GoatBoy thank you very much for your hard work at very dirty job 
I have but one remaining question; Has either company made any public move that I've not seen towards disavowing any 'carve out' that was made in that backroom deal? Thank You Again!! |
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They aren't "our own" They took a stance that fucked IL gun owners and would shut down the majority of FFL's in the state in order to get an exemption. The bill passed the Senate by 1 vote... State Senator Tom Rooney was the lone Republican to vote for the bill and that cock sucker will not be forgotten either! RRA and SA dropping their opposition to the bill gave him the political cover to vote for this bill. He's going to regret it and so is RRA and SA. 
Thanks for the clarification GB. I do think RRA got the shaft in all of this. Everything I've read is that Keller is SA's guy and I do believe RRA did not keep track. Both of their initial responses gave me that opinion. The owner of RRA was on the floor at NRA telling everyone they were 100% against it while SA's first words was "legislation is a fluid process". But it did happen and they will both suffer for it. Good. This has become a cautionary tale for all other gun manufacturers. That is, unfortunately, one good thing that has happened in all of this bullshit. |
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I owned and ran a company for a long time. My wife is a state legislator. I know how lobbying works. The idea that RRA/SA were ignorant of what happened is laughable, to say the least. Also, good to know that ARFCom owners are good with giving money to anti-gunner politicians, so long as it's just for a meeting and not for things like carve-outs and protectionist provisions. Man... that's fucking weak and deep down, everyone knows it. Everyone. From the way Illinois politics sound, I am glad to not be a part of that disaster. Having gone through the abandoning of a state I lived in for 30+ years, and moving across the country, it's tough for everyone involved. I don't wish that on anyone, but we did it because we could not stomach giving NY any more money while they disarmed our neighbors. (We were also exempt from the Safe Act.) |
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I understand about greasing palms to lubricate thu machinery. But I reiterate what d said in the other thread: nobody should be donating to Madigan. I can see throwing some toward Dems downstate who are more open, but any dealing with Madigan that does not include a noose is practically treason. |