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Posted: 7/12/2023 1:52:11 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's no argument over the choice between peace and war, but there's only one guaranteed way you can have peace - and you can have it in the next second - surrender. Interestingly, in the Israeli case, and Serb cases, our land-for-peace calculus seems some...uneven. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 1:55:24 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This conflict is endless. No matter what is done today, they will be at war again. It is better to cede some territory and have peace than perpetual war. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: My move? Peace! Unfortunately I am not in charge. You’re not describing peace, you’re describing submission. Have you not read “Give war a Chance”? This conflict is endless. No matter what is done today, they will be at war again. It is better to cede some territory and have peace than perpetual war. “Peace at all costs” is a terrible plan. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 1:58:09 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ABD 12 f-35 FIGHTERS 500 M1 Abrams and 3 UFO motherships. TASS is literally russian propaganda All media is literally propaganda. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:00:10 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryNvm double post |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:06:15 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ABD 12 f-35 FIGHTERS 500 M1 Abrams and 3 UFO motherships. TASS is literally russian propaganda LOL, but I think there are claims Russia did shoot down a UFO. 
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:14:19 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Surely by the end of page (2)... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This one needs to be rated Troll before page (2). C'mon y'all, hit that Troll button... Surely by the end of page (2)... Not sure if it happened on page (2), but it is on/by page (3)  ...
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:29:11 PM EST
[#7]
Congrats OP!
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:30:16 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This conflict is endless. No matter what is done today, they will be at war again. It is better to cede some territory and have peace than perpetual war. It's an endless conflict that won't be endless if they cede some land now? Tell me more about how that works... |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:31:45 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia is FOS and Ukraine is FOS. The truth lies somewhere in the middle which will probably be a massive disappointment and surprise for the people who have been unquestionably buying into the narratives that Ukraine and western media outlets have been spinning. Eventually the real details will shake out "Russia is FOS and Ukraine is FOS" "The truth lies somewhere in the middle" - Yup |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:33:01 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is only in GD that so many people think Ukraine is winning. Most everyone else in the world seems to be of the opinion that the Ukrainians are getting ground down and cannot sustain this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If this was true Russia would be plastering the loses via drone video left and right But no we just get the same losses from different angles There are Ukrainian losses but not what you, OP, reporting on this thread. They are plastering them all over Telegram, they are just not discussed here, for the most part anyway. If you want to look it's there for you to see, time-stamped and geolocated. It is very difficult to watch but there is no sugarcoating the Ukraian losses and the Russians do daily commentary and updates, they also do verification videos of past battles. The Ukranian losses are unsustainable, and in many cases very sad to see because it's often due to poor training or using tactics developed by UK or European trainers who have never come under combined drone-corrected artillery and ATGM fire themselves, and especially without air support. The pro-Ukrainian channels have the best social media and PR people in the world working for them, so when they get a win they milk it, and rightfully so. The Russians are rather weak in that area, but they do post a shit load of daily updated content and it is not good for the Ukranians in terms of troops and equipment losses. Russian content that shows them winning is often blocked or removed from Twitter or Youtube, so most people never see their drone or attack footage. I'm sure some people here know how bad it is, but it seems to be verboten to post or discuss. It is only in GD that so many people think Ukraine is winning. Most everyone else in the world seems to be of the opinion that the Ukrainians are getting ground down and cannot sustain this. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:33:09 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Without a viable air force Ukraine really can't do much and so I never expected any massive Desert Storm like two week ground offensive that recaptured all lost territory. Air power is a fundamental and critical component to combined arms modern warfare, without it Ukraine would be better off just fighting defensively until they can acquire it. Remember, Russia has ISR assets. Russia has its own spy satellite, ISR aircraft, and drones along with human intelligence. It is impossible for Ukraine to launch a "surprise" armored thrust. The Russians have a multi-layered defense set-up along what is essentially just huge expanses of farm fields with little cover. Under such circumstances, air power is going to be absolutely critical and Ukraine just doesn't have much of it to make any real strategic difference. 1. Airpower is still overrated. There is only one country on earth that could break the Russian IADS at will and the cost to do that is, annually, greater than the GDP of Ukraine. 2. Missiles are airpower too. 3. Russian ISR is terrible. They launched a spy sattelite early in the war, apparently their only one these days. They can't target very far beyond the front in real time except with the use of spies or observers. They like to shoot Soviet era infrastructure because their maps are old and it's still there. This is going to be a war of grinding, absent some major change in the status quo. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 2:56:22 PM EST
[#12]
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:16:20 PM EST
[#13]
Damn it, it would have been great to screenshot how many ukrainian losses in Oryx before the offensive in order to compare to present.
 No doubt they have losses, but can't tell at what percentage. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:24:02 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “Peace at all costs” is a terrible plan. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My move? Peace! Unfortunately I am not in charge. You’re not describing peace, you’re describing submission. Have you not read “Give war a Chance”? This conflict is endless. No matter what is done today, they will be at war again. It is better to cede some territory and have peace than perpetual war. “Peace at all costs” is a terrible plan. Who is saying that? Why do you build a strawman here? This perpetual war is far worse than a peace settlement. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:24:46 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who is saying that? Why do you build a strawman here? MThis perpetual war is far worse than a peace settlement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My move? Peace! Unfortunately I am not in charge. You’re not describing peace, you’re describing submission. Have you not read “Give war a Chance”? This conflict is endless. No matter what is done today, they will be at war again. It is better to cede some territory and have peace than perpetual war. “Peace at all costs” is a terrible plan. Who is saying that? Why do you build a strawman here? MThis perpetual war is far worse than a peace settlement. In this peace settlement would Russia promise to respect the new borders? Speaking of straw men (or maybe just unmedicated ADHD), but this war is at about 16 months in. That's still incredibly short from a historically perspective. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:26:20 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's an endless conflict that won't be endless if they cede some land now? Tell me more about how that works... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This conflict is endless. No matter what is done today, they will be at war again. It is better to cede some territory and have peace than perpetual war. It's an endless conflict that won't be endless if they cede some land now? Tell me more about how that works... They cede Crimea now and they will have a low grade conflict over it the rest of our lifetimes. Far better than losing tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars a year. There are border conflicts the world over, we should stay out if them and worry about ours. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:28:20 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They cede Crimea now and they will have a low grade conflict over it the rest of our lifetimes. Far better than losing tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars a year. There are border conflicts the world over, we should stay out if them and worry about ours. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: This conflict is endless. No matter what is done today, they will be at war again. It is better to cede some territory and have peace than perpetual war. It's an endless conflict that won't be endless if they cede some land now? Tell me more about how that works... They cede Crimea now and they will have a low grade conflict over it the rest of our lifetimes. Far better than losing tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars a year. There are border conflicts the world over, we should stay out if them and worry about ours. You mean like the low grade conflict they have had for eight years before Russia decided to expand it? |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:34:13 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In this peace settlement would Russia promise to respect the new borders? Speaking of straw men (or maybe just unmedicated ADHD), but this war is at about 16 months in. That's still incredibly short from a historically perspective. So, what's the plan then? Regime change in Moscow? Because, if that's not the plan, we will dealing with the same Russian government, or a nearly similar one. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:37:31 PM EST
[#19]
In the most recently exposed Biden administration scheme to combat misinformation, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) colluded with a compromised Ukrainian intelligence agency to censor the speech of Americans.
The federal agency responsible for protecting the nation against terrorists, violent street gangs and serial killers joined forces with the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), which is widely known to be infiltrated by Russian-aligned forces, to take down the authentic social media accounts of Americans. This includes a verified U.S. State Department profile and those belonging to American journalists. Interestingly, accounts targeted for removal by the SBU and FBI criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin and expressed pro-Ukrainian views. Read More https://www.judicialwatch.org/misinformation-campaign/ |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:37:50 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...according to TASS... some unbiased reporting there no doubt as if CNN was any better . |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:39:49 PM EST
[#21]
That report is bullshit
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:41:26 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: TASS is literally russian propaganda lol, like US media isn't. 
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:43:03 PM EST
[#23]
So according to many train of thoughts here, the US should have brought Japan to the bargaining table after experiencing Guadalcanal because it was way worst than expected and the war was going to be a grind. Man, the thinking was so different back then.
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:48:24 PM EST
[#24]
Usually when a bunch of these threads pop up in GD, a significant Russian defeat/setback becomes public knowledge shortly afterwards.
Popcorn on standby for flying turret, and fleeing Russian troop videos with yakitysax accompaniment. 
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:51:01 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: . as if CNN was any better. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ...according to TASS... some unbiased reporting there no doubt as if CNN was any better. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 3:52:13 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. Airpower is still overrated. There is only one country on earth that could break the Russian IADS at will and the cost to do that is, annually, greater than the GDP of Ukraine. 2. Missiles are airpower too. 3. Russian ISR is terrible. They launched a spy sattelite early in the war, apparently their only one these days. They can't target very far beyond the front in real time except with the use of spies or observers. They like to shoot Soviet era infrastructure because their maps are old and it's still there. This is going to be a war of grinding, absent some major change in the status quo. If you think after seeing Desert Storm in 1992 that air power is overrated, well, there is literally nothing I can say or do to make you see any reason. I think your gauge for evaluating the effectiveness of air power might be the GWOT, but you should not compare a counter insurgency to the conventional fight in Ukraine. Ground launched missiles aren't even in the same realm as aircraft. The overwhelming majority can't loiter, they can't hunt for targets of opportunity, and I haven't see any yet that provide close air support on par with fixed or rotary wing aircraft. Russian ISR doesn't have to be spectacular it just has to be adequate and it's adequate enough to see any major build up of Ukrainian forces. This isn't WW2, any movement by any conventional force is going to be known by the Russians. There are no surprises here. I'll say it again, Ukraine isn't going to take back its territory without air power. Attrition is NOT going to win this conflict. Ukraine could kill 3 Russians for every lost Ukrainian and they would still lose in a war of attrition. Ukraine has a very tight window left of support from the West, it will not be indefinite and Ukraine's domestic economy is in shambles. Ukraine needs a quick victory or they need to negotiate a peace treaty that will result in loss of territory. If they want a quick victory they need a much more substantial air force. They do NOT need an air force though that is on par with the USA, which attempts to be in a position to fight a two front war. Ukraine doesn't have bases and forward deployment around the globe like the USA. Ukraine has one front line and one enemy to contend with and they could do so with air assets that were close to what are held by France, the UK, or even Poland. If Ukraine can't get that kind of air power than it's time for peace talks. Otherwise, there isn't going to be a Ukrainian people left since they'll send themselves into a demographic death spiral due to all the lost young men. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:16:47 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mean like the low grade conflict they have had for eight years before Russia decided to expand it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This conflict is endless. No matter what is done today, they will be at war again. It is better to cede some territory and have peace than perpetual war. It's an endless conflict that won't be endless if they cede some land now? Tell me more about how that works... They cede Crimea now and they will have a low grade conflict over it the rest of our lifetimes. Far better than losing tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars a year. There are border conflicts the world over, we should stay out if them and worry about ours. You mean like the low grade conflict they have had for eight years before Russia decided to expand it? Far preferable to Biden’s and Zelenskyy’s war. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:24:58 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Use your head, does 1200 destroyed tanks in a month sound like propaganda? Absolutely. On the other hand, the information from the Ukraine defense ministry is equally as preposterous but certain people on GD believe that everything coming out of there is 100 percent gospel. No one is going to give accurate casualty numbers. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:25:11 PM EST
[#29]
No one has that airpower except the US. How many combat aircraft do you think it would take? 1000? 3000? The Gulf War featured 1940 US combat aircraft and 600 from partners. Even the US would struggle to deploy that so far from water today.
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:26:59 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Far preferable to Biden’s and Zelenskyy’s war. Russia needs to be exhausted so that they don’t just rearm and invade again. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:28:49 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia needs to be exhausted so that they don’t just rearm and invade again. That is basing it on the assumption that the west will not be exhausted first. Too many think we are the manufacturing and cultural powerhouse that we once were during the cold war. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:29:40 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely. On the other hand, the information from the Ukraine defense ministry is equally as preposterous but certain people on GD believe that everything coming out of there is 100 percent gospel. No one is going to give accurate casualty numbers. Ukrainian armored vehicle claims are probably only 30 inflated. Personnel claims by AFU against Russia, probably overstayed by 1/2. Russias claims are likely triple or better in some categories. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:30:02 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia needs to be exhausted so that they don’t just rearm and invade again. Can we get there from here? |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:32:44 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is basing it on the assumption that the west will not be exhausted first. Too many think we are the manufacturing and cultural powerhouse that we once were during the cold war. That’s the big variable but if western support continues Russia is likely to collapse first. The good thing about this war is it raised the demand flag for increased defense production. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:32:47 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like Lam Son 719 this idiotic and politically driven counter offensive into forwarned and well prepared defenses is a complete failure. The heady days of Kherson and Karkov with Russians troops fleeing pell mell are a distant memory. NATO is not riding to rescue the situation. Ukraine can try and salvage what its got left or, it can vainly fight on only to end up in an even worse position as the Russians keep grinding away while Ukraine's battered economy keeps shrinking. May your chains rest lightly. In the revolutionary war you would have simply been a loyalist and paid those taxes. In 4 weeks Ukraine has liberated more land than Russia took in 7 months. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:34:47 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can we get there from here? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Russia needs to be exhausted so that they don’t just rearm and invade again. Can we get there from here? If we want to. But I don’t see that from Biden. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:34:48 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: May your chains rest lightly. In the revolutionary war you would have simply been a loyalist and paid those taxes. In 4 weeks Ukraine has liberated more land than Russia took in 7 months. Typical faded with his hyperbole. Comparing Ukraine to the US during the revolutionary war is pretty comical if you think about it. Not even remotely similar by a long stretch. Thank you for the laugh. 
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:38:31 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is basing it on the assumption that the west will not be exhausted first. Too many think we are the manufacturing and cultural powerhouse that we once were during the cold war. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Russia needs to be exhausted so that they don’t just rearm and invade again. That is basing it on the assumption that the west will not be exhausted first. Too many think we are the manufacturing and cultural powerhouse that we once were during the cold war. Ahem, Sir, all of the proceeds from ukraine buying all of our old stuff (that they are killing orcs with) is going directly back to the military machine to make more. Not only are we getting richer, but we are getting stronger... ...and ukraine is paying for it! |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:39:37 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ukrainian armored vehicle claims are probably only 30 inflated. Personnel claims by AFU against Russia, probably overstayed by 1/2. Russias claims are likely triple or better in some categories. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Absolutely. On the other hand, the information from the Ukraine defense ministry is equally as preposterous but certain people on GD believe that everything coming out of there is 100 percent gospel. No one is going to give accurate casualty numbers. Ukrainian armored vehicle claims are probably only 30 inflated. Personnel claims by AFU against Russia, probably overstayed by 1/2. Russias claims are likely triple or better in some categories. Smaller fake numbers are totally better than bigger fake numbers... ...everybody knows that |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:40:15 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ahem, Sir, all of the proceeds from ukraine buying all of our old stuff (that they are killing orcs with) is going directly back to the military machine to make more. Not only are we getting richer, but we are getting stronger... ...and ukraine is paying for it! Ukraine is paying for it? I guess if you think about, once the war is over (Whichever way it goes) the west will own Ukraine, or whatever is left, so you probably have a point. Our multinational corporations will strip that country for all its worth. So yes, I guess you do have a point. Nothing the US gives is free....all quid pro quo. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:41:05 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How will you ever live without seeing posts from the wish.com version of texashomeserver? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Another Putin mouthpiece added to the ignore list. How will you ever live without seeing posts from the wish.com version of texashomeserver? 
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:41:17 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s the big variable but if western support continues Russia is likely to collapse first. The good thing about this war is it raised the demand flag for increased defense production. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That is basing it on the assumption that the west will not be exhausted first. Too many think we are the manufacturing and cultural powerhouse that we once were during the cold war. That’s the big variable but if western support continues Russia is likely to collapse first. The good thing about this war is it raised the demand flag for increased defense production. That ukraine is paying for... ...win win! |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:42:36 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If we want to. But I don’t see that from Biden. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Russia needs to be exhausted so that they don’t just rearm and invade again. Can we get there from here? If we want to. But I don’t see that from Biden. Agreed, he hasn't given away enough... |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:43:06 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will say that finding "Russian" videos can be a bit difficult at times They exist. The difference if Russian troops are reprimanded if they record, while Ukrainians are encouraged to take and post videos. Why? Russians are worried about OPSEC and Ukrainians want to prove a return on investment to their western supporters since they are heavily dependent on western equipment. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:43:22 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is only in GD that so many people think Ukraine is winning. Most everyone else in the world seems to be of the opinion that the Ukrainians are getting ground down and cannot sustain this. When is your guess when Russia starts marching into Kyiv? How bout Lviv? It seems, with the exception of drone attacks, Russia is unable to mount anything other than defensive actions today. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:43:28 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The war will end when Russia withdraws their troops back to the border they have agreed to through treaties. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What a profound waste of humanity. Your destiny was to die in a trench somewhere during a pointless war caused by failed political leaders. AFP — The war in Ukraine will not end until the West stops trying to defeat Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in an interview with Indonesian media on Wednesday. His comments came ahead of Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelensky’s symbolic talks with NATO leaders at their summit in Lithuania on Wednesday. In an interview with the Indonesian newspaper Kompas ahead of meetings with his Southeast Asian counterparts in Jakarta this week, Lavrov lambasted the United States and its allies for supporting Ukraine. The war will end when Russia withdraws their troops back to the border they have agreed to through treaties. The war will end when the US tires of providing support. What side of the border Russia is on, remains to be seen. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:44:27 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That ukraine is paying for... ...win win! Tax revenue on oil and gas and defense exports will pay for the U.S. contribution to the war. |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:45:13 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ukraine is paying for it? I guess if you think about, once the war is over (Whichever way it goes) the west will own Ukraine, or whatever is left, so you probably have a point. Our multinational corporations will strip that country for all its worth. So yes, I guess you do have a point. Nothing the US gives is free....all quid pro quo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ahem, Sir, all of the proceeds from ukraine buying all of our old stuff (that they are killing orcs with) is going directly back to the military machine to make more. Not only are we getting richer, but we are getting stronger... ...and ukraine is paying for it! Ukraine is paying for it? I guess if you think about, once the war is over (Whichever way it goes) the west will own Ukraine, or whatever is left, so you probably have a point. Our multinational corporations will strip that country for all its worth. So yes, I guess you do have a point. Nothing the US gives is free....all quid pro quo. Perhaps I was mistaken. Maybe it was the USofA giving it away, this country's future and population be-damned... ...my bad |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:46:33 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tax revenue on oil and gas and defense exports will pay for the U.S. contribution to the war. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That ukraine is paying for... ...win win! Tax revenue on oil and gas and defense exports will pay for the U.S. contribution to the war. So, ukraine IS paying for it?... |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 4:46:55 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This one needs to be rated Troll before page (2). C'mon y'all, hit that Troll button... Yeah c'mon guys, lets hypocritically complain about cancel culture and then insult/ban guys here who veer from the DC/NATO narrative. |
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