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Posted: 10/14/2015 6:23:00 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Russian cluster bombs in my experience are meh.  They are large, clunky and have a high dud rate. Ours are small, numerous, very effective and have a high dud rate. 
The data I have shows we used the following just for Desert Storm. I never did get the totals we used during OIF/OEF, but I'm sure we still used a shit ton. The last time I looked, we still had >8,000,000 rounds of 155mm DPICM in the inventory. Each round carries 88 submunitions. Plus 10's of thousands of MLRS rockets each with 644 DPICM submuntions. Lets not forget the few hundred thousand various aircraft delivered cluster bombs. If we wanted to we could unleash hell on anyone we desired. Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Russian cluster bombs in my experience are meh. They are large, clunky and have a high dud rate. Ours are small, numerous, very effective and have a high dud rate.
The data I have shows we used the following just for Desert Storm. The US dropped 27,987 Rockeye bombs over Iraq and Kuwait during Operation Desert Storm, resulting in the release of 6,912,789 Mk 118 bomblets. The MK 118 bomblet weighs 1.32 pounds, and contains a shaped charge capable of piercing 7.5 inches of armor and 31 inches of reinforced concrete.
The US dropped 10,035 CBU-87/B's on Iraq and Kuwait during the 1991 Gulf War, resulting in the release of 2,027,070 BLU-97/B bomblets. In addition, the U.S. Navy launched 27 TLAM-D cruise missiles carrying the BLU-97/B. The TLAMD carries 166 bomblets, resulting in the release of 4,482 BLU-97/B bomblets. During the Gulf War, U.S. forces used 232 MLRS launchers, and fired 17,286 MLRS rockets, resulting in the release of 11,132,184 M77 bomblets. According to the Human Rights Watch Arms Project, some 100,000 cluster munitions were shot from artillery projectiles during the Gulf War, resulting in the release of @8,800,000 M42/M46 DPICM submunitions. Total for Desert Storm: >37,676,525 submunitions. This is just the hard numbers. We also dropped another 4-5 million BLU-77 APAMS, BLU-61 Softballs and BLU-63 Baseballs during DS. I never did get the totals we used during OIF/OEF, but I'm sure we still used a shit ton. The last time I looked, we still had >8,000,000 rounds of 155mm DPICM in the inventory. Each round carries 88 submunitions. Plus 10's of thousands of MLRS rockets each with 644 DPICM submuntions. Lets not forget the few hundred thousand various aircraft delivered cluster bombs. If we wanted to we could unleash hell on anyone we desired. Both M483 and M864 are being taken out of service and their projos are being converted to training rounds with 2Lbs of explosive and a concrete ballast |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 6:36:02 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They will probably treat this as a live arms demonstration for potential client states Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder how many enemy were in that area? It seems like a lot of firepower to take out a dozen guys. Overkill is best kill.  They will probably treat this as a live arms demonstration for potential client states Or at the very least a demonstration on how to wage a battle without your hands tied behind your back. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 6:44:15 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? You think the Russians let the women and kids evacuate before they did that? They just wasted all the kids that might have found any UXO's |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 6:49:12 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You think the Russians let the women and kids evacuate before they did that? They just wasted all the kids that might have found any UXO's Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? You think the Russians let the women and kids evacuate before they did that? They just wasted all the kids that might have found any UXO's This is the reality of fighting to win. It's morally unconscionable to deliberately target kids but collateral is inevitable and morals have nothing to do with killing the enemy effectively. There will be a lot more of this before our century's barbarians - yes, the entire culture - are pacified. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:04:47 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the reality of fighting to win. It's morally unconscionable to deliberately target kids but collateral is inevitable and morals have nothing to do with killing the enemy effectively. There will be a lot more of this before our century's barbarians - yes, the entire culture - are pacified. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? You think the Russians let the women and kids evacuate before they did that? They just wasted all the kids that might have found any UXO's This is the reality of fighting to win. It's morally unconscionable to deliberately target kids but collateral is inevitable and morals have nothing to do with killing the enemy effectively. There will be a lot more of this before our century's barbarians - yes, the entire culture - are pacified. And the reality of the type of war we would have to wage should things escalate between the US, Russia and or China if we expect to have any chance at victory. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:13:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That looked ..... Effective. Probably a lot cheaper than an F-16 with a CBU munition too. Probably, but you have to get within 50 miles of the target to use it, and that takes time driving trucks. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:27:59 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Russians used "toy" bombs to deliberately blow off the arms and hands of children..... Sure it sucks but they understand the whole "nits become lice" thing. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:30:21 AM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:31:03 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That looked ..... Effective. Probably a lot cheaper than an F-16 with a CBU munition too. you.............don't......................say. I can hear the howls of protest from the media about Russian use of cluster bombs already. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:31:35 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder how many enemy were in that area? It seems like a lot of firepower to take out a dozen guys. Overkill is best kill. how about zero. that was a terror bombing of a village. welcome to Russian warfare tovarisch. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:32:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We no longer use unguided rounds or submunitions Quote HistoryQuoted:
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comes in second to MLRS 12 300mm rockets (BM-30 Smerch) 12 227mm rockets (M270 MLRS) If the Russians can make em accurate, they could seriously put the hurt on someone. ESPECIALLY when you consider max range is nearly TWICE of ours. We no longer use unguided rounds or submunitions universal values. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:48:02 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You think the Russians let the women and kids evacuate before they did that? They just wasted all the kids that might have found any UXO's Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? You think the Russians let the women and kids evacuate before they did that? They just wasted all the kids that might have found any UXO's Did the USA & Britain let the women and kids evacuate Dresden before the firebombing? What you saw in that video is a very small demonstration of how to fight to win. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:56:27 AM EDT
[#13]
But there might be a innocent woman down there.
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:56:53 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obama will be dead and rotting, and Assad will still be in power. 60 country coalition. we're gonna shame and belittle him into bending to the will of the group dynamic. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:56:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd love to see the look on that gaybar's face when he realized what they're up against now and allah cannot save them Yep, when they find out the Russians don't give a fuck about your mosque or what ever goat fucking holy site you hide in. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 7:57:51 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The amount of UXO's that probably left behind... pretty messed up. People will be losing limbs in that area years from now. But hey, they're all probably terrorists, right? Screw em. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile that'll learn 'em. To pack up and go to Europe. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 8:00:44 AM EDT
[#17]
The arc of history bends towards those who have cluster munitions.
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Posted: 10/14/2015 8:39:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? if you look back on russias tactics in afghanistan .. they made bomblets to purposely look like toys..... just so people / kids would pick them up.... ( at least according to sof mag back in the day).... lots of kids missing limbs. in other words.. the russians dont give a fuck if you get your leg blown off 20 years later... because they really dont give a fuck. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 8:41:16 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
if you look back on russias tactics in afghanistan .. they made bomblets to purposely look like toys..... just so people / kids would pick them up.... ( at least according to sof mag back in the day).... lots of kids missing limbs. in other words.. the russians dont give a fuck if you get your leg blown off 20 years later... because they really dont give a fuck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? if you look back on russias tactics in afghanistan .. they made bomblets to purposely look like toys..... just so people / kids would pick them up.... ( at least according to sof mag back in the day).... lots of kids missing limbs. in other words.. the russians dont give a fuck if you get your leg blown off 20 years later... because they really dont give a fuck. no they didn't. that was one of many lies told. the fact is bomblets, because they aren't buried, aren't nearly the problem land mines are. Don't fuck with munitions and you won't get hurt. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 8:48:33 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably, but you have to get within 50 miles of the target to use it, and that takes time driving trucks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That looked ..... Effective. Probably a lot cheaper than an F-16 with a CBU munition too. Probably, but you have to get within 50 miles of the target to use it, and that takes time driving trucks. Conscripts and trucks are cheap too. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 8:57:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Islamic troublemakers in area.
Ka-blammy No more Islamic troublemakers in area. Not seeing a problem. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 8:59:55 AM EDT
[#22]
Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party?
The SAA and SAAF have already shelled and bombed the shit out of everything but with the bottom of the Alawi barrel scraped have to rely upon LH and IRGC to take and hold ground. Russia won't mind fighting to the last Lebanese or Iranian but I'm not seeing Russian ground forces retaking Raqqah so this will likely go on for a while. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:14:24 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party? Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:19:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party? Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:22:02 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party? Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? Honestly much of what people know of that war is the equivillant of solider of fiction propaganda |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:22:26 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party? Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? Russians built more shit in Afghanistan than we did. Russians tried hearts and minds in Afghanistan no less than we did. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:22:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party? Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? Ask the Japs. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:23:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Hoooo leeee shit
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:25:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no they didn't. that was one of many lies told. the fact is bomblets, because they aren't buried, aren't nearly the problem land mines are. Don't fuck with munitions and you won't get hurt. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? if you look back on russias tactics in afghanistan .. they made bomblets to purposely look like toys..... just so people / kids would pick them up.... ( at least according to sof mag back in the day).... lots of kids missing limbs. in other words.. the russians dont give a fuck if you get your leg blown off 20 years later... because they really dont give a fuck. no they didn't. that was one of many lies told. the fact is bomblets, because they aren't buried, aren't nearly the problem land mines are. Don't fuck with munitions and you won't get hurt. so why don't we make ours to go off 10-20 minutes after they are fired if they don't go off before then. seems like a great way to get a few more combatant kills as the survivors will be looking for other survivors and trying to salvage. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:26:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its like 4th a Julau all over again Yeah, the military should put on patriotic displays like this for us. I'd take my kids to watch. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:29:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so why don't we make ours to go off 10-20 minutes after they are fired if they don't go off before then. seems like a great way to get a few more combatant kills as the survivors will be looking for other survivors and trying to salvage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? if you look back on russias tactics in afghanistan .. they made bomblets to purposely look like toys..... just so people / kids would pick them up.... ( at least according to sof mag back in the day).... lots of kids missing limbs. in other words.. the russians dont give a fuck if you get your leg blown off 20 years later... because they really dont give a fuck. no they didn't. that was one of many lies told. the fact is bomblets, because they aren't buried, aren't nearly the problem land mines are. Don't fuck with munitions and you won't get hurt. so why don't we make ours to go off 10-20 minutes after they are fired if they don't go off before then. seems like a great way to get a few more combatant kills as the survivors will be looking for other survivors and trying to salvage. Those mechanisms fail too. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:33:28 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so why don't we make ours to go off 10-20 minutes after they are fired if they don't go off before then. seems like a great way to get a few more combatant kills as the survivors will be looking for other survivors and trying to salvage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? if you look back on russias tactics in afghanistan .. they made bomblets to purposely look like toys..... just so people / kids would pick them up.... ( at least according to sof mag back in the day).... lots of kids missing limbs. in other words.. the russians dont give a fuck if you get your leg blown off 20 years later... because they really dont give a fuck. no they didn't. that was one of many lies told. the fact is bomblets, because they aren't buried, aren't nearly the problem land mines are. Don't fuck with munitions and you won't get hurt. so why don't we make ours to go off 10-20 minutes after they are fired if they don't go off before then. seems like a great way to get a few more combatant kills as the survivors will be looking for other survivors and trying to salvage. You just added complexity to an already complex mechanism and for what reason? People will just wait 30 minutes or whatever the delay is before going back. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:37:51 AM EDT
[#33]
Looks like Russian came to win.
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:39:00 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those mechanisms fail too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? if you look back on russias tactics in afghanistan .. they made bomblets to purposely look like toys..... just so people / kids would pick them up.... ( at least according to sof mag back in the day).... lots of kids missing limbs. in other words.. the russians dont give a fuck if you get your leg blown off 20 years later... because they really dont give a fuck. no they didn't. that was one of many lies told. the fact is bomblets, because they aren't buried, aren't nearly the problem land mines are. Don't fuck with munitions and you won't get hurt. so why don't we make ours to go off 10-20 minutes after they are fired if they don't go off before then. seems like a great way to get a few more combatant kills as the survivors will be looking for other survivors and trying to salvage. Those mechanisms fail too. Requirement is to either make the submunitions very large or reduce the dud rate to under .3 percent. The US can do both, but the issue is cost and ironically if we redo existing munitions with new fiuzes to save cost we now now need to make IMX compliant since they are now considered new ordnance |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:42:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Get the rest out of europe and give them all some.
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:48:36 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems to be a bit more effective than a barrel bomb dropped from an Mi-8. ETA Spelling 
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:48:40 AM EDT
[#37]
If they run, they're VC.
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:49:09 AM EDT
[#38]
P-3 Orion ready to fuck some shit up via evil Mk.20 Rockeyes:
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:49:29 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did the USA & Britain let the women and kids evacuate Dresden before the firebombing? What you saw in that video is a very small demonstration of how to fight to win. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Impressive by anyone's count but how did not go off to be found later by some kid? You think the Russians let the women and kids evacuate before they did that? They just wasted all the kids that might have found any UXO's Did the USA & Britain let the women and kids evacuate Dresden before the firebombing? What you saw in that video is a very small demonstration of how to fight to win. Well in that case let them trot out the VX and VG..followed up by some canned sunshine... |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:53:44 AM EDT
[#40]
That's how you do area denial...
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Posted: 10/14/2015 9:59:01 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Russians built more shit in Afghanistan than we did. Russians tried hearts and minds in Afghanistan no less than we did. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party? Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? Russians built more shit in Afghanistan than we did. Russians tried hearts and minds in Afghanistan no less than we did. They also destroyed entire villages and killed about a million civilians. In comparison, wiki puts the CIV KIA count for OEF at ~26k. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:03:23 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Although we still keep submunitions in war stocks, we only use unitary warhead MFOM anymore "Mother Fucker On the Move"?
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:04:19 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They also destroyed entire villages and killed about a million civilians. In comparison, wiki puts the CIV KIA count for OEF at ~26k. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party? Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." How'd that strategy work out for the Russians in Afghanistan? Russians built more shit in Afghanistan than we did. Russians tried hearts and minds in Afghanistan no less than we did. They also destroyed entire villages and killed about a million civilians. In comparison, wiki puts the CIV KIA count for OEF at ~26k. and made mines that looked like toys, too. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:05:07 AM EDT
[#44]
Do ten mile grid square bombardments and enjoy!
The snack bar will be under new ownership soon. FBHO.
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:05:43 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Mother Fucker On the Move"? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Although we still keep submunitions in war stocks, we only use unitary warhead MFOM anymore "Mother Fucker On the Move"? MLRS Faimly of Munitions |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:05:48 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did this kill more jihadis or convince more to show up to the party? Should more show up, no doubt the Russkies would welcome them similarly. "Kill enough of 'em, and they'll stop fighting." Does Russia have enough money to bribe their way out of Syria the way the U.S. paid off Sunnis to quit fighting in Iraq? Nope. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:09:11 AM EDT
[#47]
What will be really interesting, is if and when the US actually gets pushed to the point where we no longer care about keeping war "humanitarian" and take a similar approach.
If you thought WWII was ugly, imagine the technologies of today unleashed on a "wipe everyone out, as efficiently as possible" scale. This shit in Syria is scary. It's scary because of the number and the size of the players involved. Remember, all it took was one bullet to kick off WWII. Something like this has the potential to become an expanded conflict real quick. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:17:41 AM EDT
[#48]
What are those subs equivalent to, 60mm mortar ?
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:24:51 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder how many enemy were in that area? It seems like a lot of firepower to take out a dozen guys. Overkill is best kill. |
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Posted: 10/14/2015 10:25:29 AM EDT
[#50]
The Russians, like us, don't care about collateral damage. I know a drone just hit a wedding party in Yemen the other day with over 100 casualties.
How do you protect against something like that. Very deep hole with cover? |
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