[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 135 of 142)
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Quoted: If you read the whole story it’s obvious the firearms trainer wants to get Glocks and red dots. He is using the bad publicity of the p320 to get money approved to buy what he wants them to have. He never mentions any issues that they personally have seen. So I’m not quite sure what the point of this story is aside from he wants to get them optics equipped Glocks. Probably from the tax payers pockets of course. I’m sure pretty much all of us would love to switch from a p320 to an optic equipped Glock if someone else was footing the bill too. Quoted: Quoted: https://www.bigrapidsnews.com/news/article/big-rapids-dps-cites-safety-issues-sig-sauer-p320-20880988.php Big Rapids police cite safety concerns with SIG Sauer P320 The department proposes switching to Glock 45 By Cathie Crew, Staff Writer Aug 25, 2025 ... “We carry the SIG Sauer P320 and in the last three or four years it has become more of a prevalent issue with what is called ‘uncommanded discharges’ with this firearm,” Torres said. “What I mean by that is there is no touching or manipulation of the firearm in any manner, and the firearm is discharging — in some cases into other officers, into vehicles or into objects — and it is causing serious liability issues.” He said that across the country there are currently hundreds of litigation issues against the company where people have injured themselves, or that have been injured by someone else, when the weapon discharged into them or near them. County board to hold public hearing on MI Neighborhood grant The Osceola County Board of Commissioners will meet at 9 a.m., Sept. 2, in the Osceola County Administration Building at 602 Upton Ave., Reed City. Torres showed clips of videos of the firearms discharging while the officer’s hands were not on the weapon and it was still in the holster. In one video, a police officer is seen reaching into a vehicle to conduct a search when his weapon discharges. “You can see that his (the officer) hands are in the car searching the vehicle and the weapon goes off and shoots his partner behind him,” Torres said. “He is not touching the weapon in any way and there is no manipulation, and it discharges. So, you can imagine that this is kind of an issue for us. That is one of the many (incidences) that are going on around the country and police departments are getting rid of this firearm.” If you read the whole story it’s obvious the firearms trainer wants to get Glocks and red dots. He is using the bad publicity of the p320 to get money approved to buy what he wants them to have. He never mentions any issues that they personally have seen. So I’m not quite sure what the point of this story is aside from he wants to get them optics equipped Glocks. Probably from the tax payers pockets of course. I’m sure pretty much all of us would love to switch from a p320 to an optic equipped Glock if someone else was footing the bill too. Only because taxpayer funded? LOL If the only pistol I had right now was a P320, I'd Israeli carry it to the gun store and buy a G47 COA. Then I'd cut the P320 up and throw it in a dumpster, as soon as I had my Glock. Even if I was a poor with no money, I'd put it on a credit card. It's less than $1,000. More like $800 for cops and blue label. My leg is worth way more. Hospital visit is way more. I can't fathom why any agency would take the risk of keeping a P320 at this point. Even if they are/will be safe, if an officer fucks up and shoots himself in the leg, guess what the story will be? Guess what lawsuit is coming for your agency that issued that weapon? Guess what distraction will be screwing with your force? Some of your officers will assume that you don't give a shit about them. It's nothing but a problem and a headache that is pretty easily and cheaply resolved. |
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Quoted: I am under the impression those examples he was sharing were of other departments, not his. He was using other places incidents to create fear to get new pistols in my opinion. And One of the options was to install manual safeties. But he was worried that the officers would not be able to learn to use them properly without a lot of training and reps lol. As I said, I don’t care what they do. It’s not my money Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://www.bigrapidsnews.com/news/article/big-rapids-dps-cites-safety-issues-sig-sauer-p320-20880988.php Big Rapids police cite safety concerns with SIG Sauer P320 The department proposes switching to Glock 45 By Cathie Crew, Staff Writer Aug 25, 2025 ... “We carry the SIG Sauer P320 and in the last three or four years it has become more of a prevalent issue with what is called ‘uncommanded discharges’ with this firearm,” Torres said. “What I mean by that is there is no touching or manipulation of the firearm in any manner, and the firearm is discharging — in some cases into other officers, into vehicles or into objects — and it is causing serious liability issues.” He said that across the country there are currently hundreds of litigation issues against the company where people have injured themselves, or that have been injured by someone else, when the weapon discharged into them or near them. County board to hold public hearing on MI Neighborhood grant The Osceola County Board of Commissioners will meet at 9 a.m., Sept. 2, in the Osceola County Administration Building at 602 Upton Ave., Reed City. Torres showed clips of videos of the firearms discharging while the officer’s hands were not on the weapon and it was still in the holster. In one video, a police officer is seen reaching into a vehicle to conduct a search when his weapon discharges. “You can see that his (the officer) hands are in the car searching the vehicle and the weapon goes off and shoots his partner behind him,” Torres said. “He is not touching the weapon in any way and there is no manipulation, and it discharges. So, you can imagine that this is kind of an issue for us. That is one of the many (incidences) that are going on around the country and police departments are getting rid of this firearm.” Torres showed clips of videos of the firearms discharging while the officer’s hands were not on the weapon and it was still in the holster. And there were three options offered, only one of which was switch to glocks.In one video, a police officer is seen reaching into a vehicle to conduct a search when his weapon discharges. “You can see that his (the officer) hands are in the car searching the vehicle and the weapon goes off and shoots his partner behind him,” Torres said. “He is not touching the weapon in any way and there is no manipulation, and it discharges. So, you can imagine that this is kind of an issue for us. |
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Quoted: Only because taxpayer funded? LOL If the only pistol I had right now was a P320, I'd Israeli carry it to the gun store and buy a G47 COA. Then I'd cut the P320 up and throw it in a dumpster, as soon as I had my Glock. Even if I was a poor with no money, I'd put it on a credit card. It's less than $1,000. More like $800 for cops and blue label. My leg is worth way more. Hospital visit is way more. I can't fathom why any agency would take the risk of keeping a P320 at this point. Even if they are/will be safe, if an officer fucks up and shoots himself in the leg, guess what the story will be? Guess what lawsuit is coming for your agency that issued that weapon? Guess what distraction will be screwing with your force? Some of your officers will assume that you don't give a shit about them. It's nothing but a problem and a headache that is pretty easily and cheaply resolved. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://www.bigrapidsnews.com/news/article/big-rapids-dps-cites-safety-issues-sig-sauer-p320-20880988.php Big Rapids police cite safety concerns with SIG Sauer P320 The department proposes switching to Glock 45 By Cathie Crew, Staff Writer Aug 25, 2025 ... “We carry the SIG Sauer P320 and in the last three or four years it has become more of a prevalent issue with what is called ‘uncommanded discharges’ with this firearm,” Torres said. “What I mean by that is there is no touching or manipulation of the firearm in any manner, and the firearm is discharging — in some cases into other officers, into vehicles or into objects — and it is causing serious liability issues.” He said that across the country there are currently hundreds of litigation issues against the company where people have injured themselves, or that have been injured by someone else, when the weapon discharged into them or near them. County board to hold public hearing on MI Neighborhood grant The Osceola County Board of Commissioners will meet at 9 a.m., Sept. 2, in the Osceola County Administration Building at 602 Upton Ave., Reed City. Torres showed clips of videos of the firearms discharging while the officer’s hands were not on the weapon and it was still in the holster. In one video, a police officer is seen reaching into a vehicle to conduct a search when his weapon discharges. “You can see that his (the officer) hands are in the car searching the vehicle and the weapon goes off and shoots his partner behind him,” Torres said. “He is not touching the weapon in any way and there is no manipulation, and it discharges. So, you can imagine that this is kind of an issue for us. That is one of the many (incidences) that are going on around the country and police departments are getting rid of this firearm.” If you read the whole story it’s obvious the firearms trainer wants to get Glocks and red dots. He is using the bad publicity of the p320 to get money approved to buy what he wants them to have. He never mentions any issues that they personally have seen. So I’m not quite sure what the point of this story is aside from he wants to get them optics equipped Glocks. Probably from the tax payers pockets of course. I’m sure pretty much all of us would love to switch from a p320 to an optic equipped Glock if someone else was footing the bill too. Only because taxpayer funded? LOL If the only pistol I had right now was a P320, I'd Israeli carry it to the gun store and buy a G47 COA. Then I'd cut the P320 up and throw it in a dumpster, as soon as I had my Glock. Even if I was a poor with no money, I'd put it on a credit card. It's less than $1,000. More like $800 for cops and blue label. My leg is worth way more. Hospital visit is way more. I can't fathom why any agency would take the risk of keeping a P320 at this point. Even if they are/will be safe, if an officer fucks up and shoots himself in the leg, guess what the story will be? Guess what lawsuit is coming for your agency that issued that weapon? Guess what distraction will be screwing with your force? Some of your officers will assume that you don't give a shit about them. It's nothing but a problem and a headache that is pretty easily and cheaply resolved. Justified or not |
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Quoted: Justified or not Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://www.bigrapidsnews.com/news/article/big-rapids-dps-cites-safety-issues-sig-sauer-p320-20880988.php Big Rapids police cite safety concerns with SIG Sauer P320 The department proposes switching to Glock 45 By Cathie Crew, Staff Writer Aug 25, 2025 ... “We carry the SIG Sauer P320 and in the last three or four years it has become more of a prevalent issue with what is called ‘uncommanded discharges’ with this firearm,” Torres said. “What I mean by that is there is no touching or manipulation of the firearm in any manner, and the firearm is discharging — in some cases into other officers, into vehicles or into objects — and it is causing serious liability issues.” He said that across the country there are currently hundreds of litigation issues against the company where people have injured themselves, or that have been injured by someone else, when the weapon discharged into them or near them. County board to hold public hearing on MI Neighborhood grant The Osceola County Board of Commissioners will meet at 9 a.m., Sept. 2, in the Osceola County Administration Building at 602 Upton Ave., Reed City. Torres showed clips of videos of the firearms discharging while the officer’s hands were not on the weapon and it was still in the holster. In one video, a police officer is seen reaching into a vehicle to conduct a search when his weapon discharges. “You can see that his (the officer) hands are in the car searching the vehicle and the weapon goes off and shoots his partner behind him,” Torres said. “He is not touching the weapon in any way and there is no manipulation, and it discharges. So, you can imagine that this is kind of an issue for us. That is one of the many (incidences) that are going on around the country and police departments are getting rid of this firearm.” If you read the whole story it’s obvious the firearms trainer wants to get Glocks and red dots. He is using the bad publicity of the p320 to get money approved to buy what he wants them to have. He never mentions any issues that they personally have seen. So I’m not quite sure what the point of this story is aside from he wants to get them optics equipped Glocks. Probably from the tax payers pockets of course. I’m sure pretty much all of us would love to switch from a p320 to an optic equipped Glock if someone else was footing the bill too. Only because taxpayer funded? LOL If the only pistol I had right now was a P320, I'd Israeli carry it to the gun store and buy a G47 COA. Then I'd cut the P320 up and throw it in a dumpster, as soon as I had my Glock. Even if I was a poor with no money, I'd put it on a credit card. It's less than $1,000. More like $800 for cops and blue label. My leg is worth way more. Hospital visit is way more. I can't fathom why any agency would take the risk of keeping a P320 at this point. Even if they are/will be safe, if an officer fucks up and shoots himself in the leg, guess what the story will be? Guess what lawsuit is coming for your agency that issued that weapon? Guess what distraction will be screwing with your force? Some of your officers will assume that you don't give a shit about them. It's nothing but a problem and a headache that is pretty easily and cheaply resolved. Justified or not Basic risk assessment thinking: possible risk event identified as a Sig P-320 going off in the holster: What's the probability of the risk event occurring? Probably very low, but truly unknown. The true root causes and number of events are still unknown. Significant evidence that the risk of the event occurring is greater than 0. What is the likely consequence of the event occurring? Getting shot in the leg by your own gun, or at the very least, an ND that could injure someone else, destroy property or have some other ill legal or personal impacts. If you're running an agency, your people could get shot, lawsuits, loss of jobs, professional confidence... What are some possible risk mitigation measures? Getting another gun What's the regret or cost of doing the risk mitigation? $300-$1,000 and about 2 hours of time. Pretty easy risk decision to make here for both individuals and agencies. |
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for me living in CT, if I was to carry my p320 legion carry and it just went off for no reason, and I was out and about ( not at home or work) not only would the cops break my balls and probably ruin me, I would also lose my permit to carry and lose all my guns ect...... not worth the chance , there are to many other guns available to not have to worry abouth the p320 issues. luckily i sold mine over a year ago, i still do have a p365 legion but honestly have no use for it and will likely sell it on the cheap. I wish zev would make a 43x size gun ( have a few zevs with the ricarus precision grips and love them) and started looking at moving somewhere between south carolina and southern georgia in the next 9 months or so and FCT |
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Quoted: Let's get this thread to 320 pages, then we can drop it.  Quoted: Quoted: 134 pages already. Good grief. The more this thread goes on the more I love my Colt 1911's and my CZ75's . I might just buy one more of each for Christs sake. . Let's get this thread to 320 pages, then we can drop it. Honorable goal . |
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Quoted: It’s not the odds, it’s the stakes. I find it odd that we got this huge trauma-dump of Sig stuff at the beginning of the summer, and then all we’ve gotten since is Ben Stoeger aggravating people for his own amusement. Cops are 25% less likely now to have a 320 UD - b/c 25% fewer cops are carrying 320s. It'll be 25% longer til the next UD video. |
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Quoted: If you read the article, you'd know what they were. *shrug* I did read the fucking article. Read all three of his options he laid out. It was fucking stupid. Some of you are so blinded by your hate for the p320 that you don’t think before you type responses at people here. Go out and get some air for a bit |
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Quoted: Only because taxpayer funded? LOL If the only pistol I had right now was a P320, I'd Israeli carry it to the gun store and buy a G47 COA. Then I'd cut the P320 up and throw it in a dumpster, as soon as I had my Glock. Even if I was a poor with no money, I'd put it on a credit card. It's less than $1,000. More like $800 for cops and blue label. My leg is worth way more. Hospital visit is way more. I can't fathom why any agency would take the risk of keeping a P320 at this point. Even if they are/will be safe, if an officer fucks up and shoots himself in the leg, guess what the story will be? Guess what lawsuit is coming for your agency that issued that weapon? Guess what distraction will be screwing with your force? Some of your officers will assume that you don't give a shit about them. It's nothing but a problem and a headache that is pretty easily and cheaply resolved. You are a serious drama queen about a p320. You also have never worked in law enforcement from what I can tell because you actually think that the admin gives a fuck about their officers so much? Go do the job for a few years and then get back to us on that experience |
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Quoted: You are a serious drama queen about a p320. You also have never worked in law enforcement from what I can tell because you actually think that the admin gives a fuck about their officers so much? Go do the job for a few years and then get back to us on that experience Quoted: Quoted: Only because taxpayer funded? LOL If the only pistol I had right now was a P320, I'd Israeli carry it to the gun store and buy a G47 COA. Then I'd cut the P320 up and throw it in a dumpster, as soon as I had my Glock. Even if I was a poor with no money, I'd put it on a credit card. It's less than $1,000. More like $800 for cops and blue label. My leg is worth way more. Hospital visit is way more. I can't fathom why any agency would take the risk of keeping a P320 at this point. Even if they are/will be safe, if an officer fucks up and shoots himself in the leg, guess what the story will be? Guess what lawsuit is coming for your agency that issued that weapon? Guess what distraction will be screwing with your force? Some of your officers will assume that you don't give a shit about them. It's nothing but a problem and a headache that is pretty easily and cheaply resolved. You are a serious drama queen about a p320. You also have never worked in law enforcement from what I can tell because you actually think that the admin gives a fuck about their officers so much? Go do the job for a few years and then get back to us on that experience Obviously a lot of them don't give a shit about their officers, still lots of places issuing the 320. No I'm not a cop and never have been, nor claimed to be. It's not drama queen to just call it like it is. I'm not a fan of our Cops and servicemen getting shot by their own shitty taxpayer funded weapon. |
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Quoted: police 1 is going the gaslighting route. https://www.police1.com/firearms/sig-sauer-p320-controversy-separating-fact-from-fiction-in-safety-claims Quoted: police 1 is going the gaslighting route. https://www.police1.com/firearms/sig-sauer-p320-controversy-separating-fact-from-fiction-in-safety-claims Designed and tested to the highest standards The P320 was engineered and tested to meet or exceed the most stringent industry safety standards, including NIJ, SAAMI and MIL-STD-810G protocols. It also underwent exhaustive in-house and end-user agency testing by organizations such as the FBI and the U.S. military. |
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Quoted: I did read the fucking article. Read all three of his options he laid out. It was fucking stupid. Some of you are so blinded by your hate for the p320 that you don’t think before you type responses at people here. Go out and get some air for a bit Quoted: Quoted: If you read the article, you'd know what they were. *shrug* I did read the fucking article. Read all three of his options he laid out. It was fucking stupid. Some of you are so blinded by your hate for the p320 that you don’t think before you type responses at people here. Go out and get some air for a bit You're wound a little to tight for your own good there. I only posted because it's yet another PD considering dropping the 320 and your reaction was to go defensive as if it was a personal attack on you, and now you're cranked up because I didn't follow along with what you wanted. |
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Quoted: Obviously a lot of them don't give a shit about their officers, still lots of places issuing the 320. No I'm not a cop and never have been, nor claimed to be. It's not drama queen to just call it like it is. I'm not a fan of our Cops and servicemen getting shot by their own shitty taxpayer funded weapon. I was not there for any of these guns going off. So I have no idea what is really happening. I don’t give a shit about random dudes on the internet and YouTube fucking around with a p320 til it clicks. Means nothing to me. The actual shootings should be studied, and not by sig. And I really do believe that if Glock was having the same issue the feeling would be different around here. |
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Quoted: You're wound a little to tight for your own good there. I only posted because it's yet another PD considering dropping the 320 and your reaction was to go defensive as if it was a personal attack on you, and now you're cranked up because I didn't follow along with what you wanted. I’m not cranked up at all. If some cuss words offend you I don’t care. And it did follow what I said. You posted a stupid article with the intention of trying to spread more bad publicity towards sig. they already are fucking up left and right without your contribution. You posting stupid shit like an article about some firearms instructor using a situation to get new pistols just because is as dumb as me arguing with you about a pistol. Go reflect on that instead of thinking you actually got me mad. |
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Quoted: I was not there for any of these guns going off. So I have no idea what is really happening. I don’t give a shit about random dudes on the internet and YouTube fucking around with a p320 til it clicks. Means nothing to me. The actual shootings should be studied, and not by sig. And I really do believe that if Glock was having the same issue the feeling would be different around here. I was utterly unaware of cohen or anything going on with sig or the military's adoption of their sidearm before this kicked off and it was the internal design of the gun and that crappy striker safety design (safety not held against the striker by the action of the striker and the striker going a cm or more and hitting the stamped or mim'ed finger, where the strike safety can physically get over the top of the surface it's supposed to catch) that got my attention. Life is not clean and simple. |
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Quoted: I’m not cranked up at all. If some cuss words offend you I don’t care. And it did follow what I said. You posted a stupid article with the intention of trying to spread more bad publicity towards sig. they already are fucking up left and right without your contribution. You posting stupid shit like an article about some firearms instructor using a situation to get new pistols just because is as dumb as me arguing with you about a pistol. Go reflect on that instead of thinking you actually got me mad. Quoted: Quoted: You're wound a little to tight for your own good there. I only posted because it's yet another PD considering dropping the 320 and your reaction was to go defensive as if it was a personal attack on you, and now you're cranked up because I didn't follow along with what you wanted. You say you're not cranked up. Yet you posted in a cranked up manner, and now you're trying to gaslight me into not seeing what you posted. I did read the fucking article. Read all three of his options he laid out. It was fucking stupid. Some of you are so blinded by your hate for the p320 that you don’t think before you type responses at people here. Go out and get some air for a bit "Not cranked up."And now you're mind and intent reading, based on zero evidence. Most people I've seen who post like this are very easily goaded into own-goaling themselves. |
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Quoted: I’m not cranked up at all. If some cuss words offend you I don’t care. And it did follow what I said. You posted a stupid article with the intention of trying to spread more bad publicity towards sig. they already are fucking up left and right without your contribution. You posting stupid shit like an article about some firearms instructor using a situation to get new pistols just because is as dumb as me arguing with you about a pistol. Go reflect on that instead of thinking you actually got me mad. Quoted: Quoted: You're wound a little to tight for your own good there. I only posted because it's yet another PD considering dropping the 320 and your reaction was to go defensive as if it was a personal attack on you, and now you're cranked up because I didn't follow along with what you wanted. I’m not cranked up at all. If some cuss words offend you I don’t care. And it did follow what I said. You posted a stupid article with the intention of trying to spread more bad publicity towards sig. they already are fucking up left and right without your contribution. You posting stupid shit like an article about some firearms instructor using a situation to get new pistols just because is as dumb as me arguing with you about a pistol. Go reflect on that instead of thinking you actually got me mad. Dude, SIG has brought all the bad publicity on themselves - they started this thread. Go read the OP again. FlashMan's just posting the link in a ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE PAGE THREAD that shows NO signs of ending b/c SIG made their bed and they're lying in it. Here's 7 pages of SIG 320 videos: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The-Official-SIG-P320-video-thread/5-2806029/ Here's a listing of most of ARFCOM's threads on the 320. I didn't go back past Page 1 in the SIG forum: https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Master-P320-index-thread-NO-opinions-allowed-post-links-and-data-only/14-216492/?#i2554649 Here's an incomplete listing of current users, departments transitioning, & former users, as well as some range prohibitions: https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Master-P320-index-thread-NO-opinions-allowed-post-links-and-data-only/14-216492/?#i2554656 |
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Quoted: I was not there for any of these guns going off. So I have no idea what is really happening. I don't give a shit about random dudes on the internet and YouTube fucking around with a p320 til it clicks. Means nothing to me. The actual shootings should be studied, and not by sig. And I really do believe that if Glock was having the same issue the feeling would be different around here. |
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Quoted: What kills me about all of this is that Glock would be handling this the exact same way. They would issue denials and say how it couldn't be replicated in their testing and that it isn't possible. Don't agree? You are up in the night if you think a major gun company is going to admit fault before absolute repeatable irrefutable proof, opening themselves to lawsuits by everyone and their dog. Glock would be doing the exact same thing, lie and deny until you can't. Quoted: Quoted: I was not there for any of these guns going off. So I have no idea what is really happening. I don't give a shit about random dudes on the internet and YouTube fucking around with a p320 til it clicks. Means nothing to me. The actual shootings should be studied, and not by sig. And I really do believe that if Glock was having the same issue the feeling would be different around here. What kills me about all of this is that Glock would be handling this the exact same way. They would issue denials and say how it couldn't be replicated in their testing and that it isn't possible. Don't agree? You are up in the night if you think a major gun company is going to admit fault before absolute repeatable irrefutable proof, opening themselves to lawsuits by everyone and their dog. Glock would be doing the exact same thing, lie and deny until you can't. That's the strategy Remington & Taurus used. Glock actually put employees working in New York City working in NYPD offices until they came up w/ the NY trigger & got it installed across the NYPD fleet. So I'm not convinced that a) Glock would put out a turd like this & b) wouldn't fix it if they had. |
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Quoted: No, their insurance would foot the bill most likely. How long has that department had their p320s so far and how many incidents have they personally experienced themselves? I don’t really care what they do with their money though. I don’t live there Gov entities are self-insured. |
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Quoted: What kills me about all of this is that Glock would be handling this the exact same way. They would issue denials and say how it couldn't be replicated in their testing and that it isn't possible. Don't agree? You are up in the night if you think a major gun company is going to admit fault before absolute repeatable irrefutable proof, opening themselves to lawsuits by everyone and their dog. Glock would be doing the exact same thing, lie and deny until you can't. We know that's not a reasonable assumption because of what Glock Inc has done in the past to issues. To add to backbencher's post above, in the early 2000's there were less than a dozen instances of a rear frame rail breaking off and Glock issued a frame replacement program for an entire serial number range that you can still take advantage of in 2025. |
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Quoted: What kills me about all of this is that Glock would be handling this the exact same way. They would issue denials and say how it couldn't be replicated in their testing and that it isn't possible. Don't agree? You are up in the night if you think a major gun company is going to admit fault before absolute repeatable irrefutable proof, opening themselves to lawsuits by everyone and their dog. Glock would be doing the exact same thing, lie and deny until you can't. And there was another instance where on a .40 caliber Glock (back then) a mounted light would cause a problem that a police department noticed and brought it to their attention. Glock flew in 2 engineers from Smyrna. And one from Austria. They tried to replicate the problem onsite and review the testing procedure. They swapped firearms on the spot and took the defective ones back for high speed photographic testing. Tested them. Could see the problem and changed how the lights mounted or the rail. Cant remember. And then offered the department to swap ALL their firearms for just the cost of new night sites. Which they needed anyways. The department did that. Can't remember the department. Its in this monster of a thread somewhere.
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Well that didn’t work out the way I wanted it to…. Never mind…. I’ll add this here since I have the space. Sig had done something similar in the above post but it wasnt with the 320, it was with the 220ST in ‘05. The department I retired from had just purchased the 220ST and we used reloads by our people for practice rounds. The department had a 650 & 1050 and the firearms guys would reload for our training. Some of the pistols would hang up on the reloads but would work like a top with any factory ammo. Sig discovered our pistols were made towards the end of a production run and thought that was why some of the pistols didn’t like the reloads, they replaced ALL of our 220STs on the spot without blinking an eye. It wasn’t a pistol problem but an ammo issue and they replaced them anyways. 150 pistols because a handful didn’t like our reloads. I don’t know if Cohen was there at the time or not but that’s how it went down. My old department still has the 320RX carry and as far as I know they have no plans to change…. |
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Quoted: And there was another instance where on a .40 caliber Glock (back then) a mounted light would cause a problem that a police department noticed and brought it to their attention. Glock flew in 2 engineers from Smyrna. And one from Austria. They tried to replicate the problem onsite and review the testing procedure. They swapped firearms on the spot and took the defective ones back for high speed photographic testing. Tested them. Could see the problem and changed how the lights mounted or the rail. Cant remember. And then offered the department to swap ALL their firearms for just the cost of new night sites. Which they needed anyways. The department did that. Can't remember the department. Its in this monster of a thread somewhere. |
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Quoted: I'm just not sure they would be doing much different fixing this problem if it were theirs. This is a problem with the potential to end a gun company of any size. |
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Quoted: I was not there for any of these guns going off. So I have no idea what is really happening. I don’t give a shit about random dudes on the internet and YouTube fucking around with a p320 til it clicks. Means nothing to me. The actual shootings should be studied, and not by sig. And I really do believe that if Glock was having the same issue the feeling would be different around here. Quoted: Quoted: Obviously a lot of them don't give a shit about their officers, still lots of places issuing the 320. No I'm not a cop and never have been, nor claimed to be. It's not drama queen to just call it like it is. I'm not a fan of our Cops and servicemen getting shot by their own shitty taxpayer funded weapon. I was not there for any of these guns going off. So I have no idea what is really happening. I don’t give a shit about random dudes on the internet and YouTube fucking around with a p320 til it clicks. Means nothing to me. The actual shootings should be studied, and not by sig. And I really do believe that if Glock was having the same issue the feeling would be different around here. This is a nonsense statement. 1) Glock has a 35+ year service history without known UD or drop discharge events. ADs/NDs when the trigger was pulled? Yes. Unsupported chamber kabooms? Yes. QC issues? Yes. UDs? No. 2) We can look at the mechanical design of Glocks and objectively see why UDs aren't a problem. 3) The Sig P320 has had UDs and drop discharge since the very beginning. Ever since these guns saw mass production and common adoption, these events have been happening. We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. 4) We can look at the mechanical design of the P320 and objectively see a bunch of holes that create vulnerabilities and allow these events to happen. |
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Quoted: What kills me about all of this is that Glock would be handling this the exact same way. They would issue denials and say how it couldn't be replicated in their testing and that it isn't possible. Don't agree? You are up in the night if you think a major gun company is going to admit fault before absolute repeatable irrefutable proof, opening themselves to lawsuits by everyone and their dog. Glock would be doing the exact same thing, lie and deny until you can't. Quoted: Quoted: I was not there for any of these guns going off. So I have no idea what is really happening. I don't give a shit about random dudes on the internet and YouTube fucking around with a p320 til it clicks. Means nothing to me. The actual shootings should be studied, and not by sig. And I really do believe that if Glock was having the same issue the feeling would be different around here. I'm not sure about Glock, but S&W has 18 active recalls listed on their site, and Ruger has 15. Some of these are very old.  The risk to the business is different when you handle things in a timely manner and conduct a proper recall vs when you ignore warning signs, crank out 3.5+ million units, and make arrogant and aggressive public statements. |
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Quoted: What kills me about all of this is that Glock would be handling this the exact same way. They would issue denials and say how it couldn't be replicated in their testing and that it isn't possible. Don't agree? You are up in the night if you think a major gun company is going to admit fault before absolute repeatable irrefutable proof, opening themselves to lawsuits by everyone and their dog. Glock would be doing the exact same thing, lie and deny until you can't. Quoted: That's the strategy Remington & Taurus used. Glock actually put employees working in New York City working in NYPD offices until they came up w/ the NY trigger & got it installed across the NYPD fleet. So I'm not convinced that a) Glock would put out a turd like this & b) wouldn't fix it if they had. They also fixed the flashlight issue and replaced pistols for new ones for the Michigan State Police. |
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Quoted: 3) The Sig P320 has had UDs and drop discharge since the very beginning. Ever since these guns saw mass production and common adoption, these events have been happening. We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. It would be interesting to be able to find out "the very beginning" statement. I ran a pistol evaluation in July of 2015 and the officers selected the P320 out of 4 different pistols. In September 2015 we took delivery of our first 250 pistols out of a total contract for 650. Sig gave me a list of departments in January 2016 that had already issued the P320 for uniformed officers. I think about 4 or 5 departments had 500 or more officers. I never heard a thing about any mystery discharges in the first two years I was issuing P320's to officers. Then in August 2017 the famous video came out and the internet exploded. Other than Sig explaining to me the data that the P320 did not originally pass the DoD 8 foot drop test in their evaluation, I had never thought about striker engagement. Sig sent me 450 replacement pistols for the ones we already had in service in December 2017. They also sent us through a second P320 Armorer course after the upgrade started. I know Glock has a special back plate that we used in their Armorer course to measure the striker to crucible engagement. No other armorer course I went through did that. I wonder when the internet says this drop safety issue first came to light. I also remember a few variations of striker assemblies before the upgrade. Sig switched MIM and stamped parts on the striker assemblies prior to the upgrade. It would be interesting to find an original pre upgrade 320 and compare the measurements of the components to the most current model. Also the original LE version of the P320 could be ordered with the Glock style trigger safety. Sig dropped the option after a few years of no one ordering it. Since the internet says the military's external safety does nothing to make the P320 safe, I would love to see what the trigger safety would do. I wonder if the aftermarket will come out with a trigger shoe conversion for the 320 at some point. |
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Quoted: It would be interesting to be able to find out "the very beginning" statement. I ran a pistol evaluation in July of 2015 and the officers selected the P320 out of 4 different pistols. In September 2015 we took delivery of our first 250 pistols out of a total contract for 650. Sig gave me a list of departments in January 2016 that had already issued the P320 for uniformed officers. I think about 4 or 5 departments had 500 or more officers. I never heard a thing about any mystery discharges in the first two years I was issuing P320's to officers. Then in August 2017 the famous video came out and the internet exploded. Other than Sig explaining to me the data that the P320 did not originally pass the DoD 8 foot drop test in their evaluation, I had never thought about striker engagement. Sig sent me 450 replacement pistols for the ones we already had in service in December 2017. They also sent us through a second P320 Armorer course after the upgrade started. I know Glock has a special back plate that we used in their Armorer course to measure the striker to crucible engagement. No other armorer course I went through did that. I wonder when the internet says this drop safety issue first came to light. I also remember a few variations of striker assemblies before the upgrade. Sig switched MIM and stamped parts on the striker assemblies prior to the upgrade. It would be interesting to find an original pre upgrade 320 and compare the measurements of the components to the most current model. Also the original LE version of the P320 could be ordered with the Glock style trigger safety. Sig dropped the option after a few years of no one ordering it. Since the internet says the military's external safety does nothing to make the P320 safe, I would love to see what the trigger safety would do. I wonder if the aftermarket will come out with a trigger shoe conversion for the 320 at some point. Quoted: Quoted: 3) The Sig P320 has had UDs and drop discharge since the very beginning. Ever since these guns saw mass production and common adoption, these events have been happening. We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. It would be interesting to be able to find out "the very beginning" statement. I ran a pistol evaluation in July of 2015 and the officers selected the P320 out of 4 different pistols. In September 2015 we took delivery of our first 250 pistols out of a total contract for 650. Sig gave me a list of departments in January 2016 that had already issued the P320 for uniformed officers. I think about 4 or 5 departments had 500 or more officers. I never heard a thing about any mystery discharges in the first two years I was issuing P320's to officers. Then in August 2017 the famous video came out and the internet exploded. Other than Sig explaining to me the data that the P320 did not originally pass the DoD 8 foot drop test in their evaluation, I had never thought about striker engagement. Sig sent me 450 replacement pistols for the ones we already had in service in December 2017. They also sent us through a second P320 Armorer course after the upgrade started. I know Glock has a special back plate that we used in their Armorer course to measure the striker to crucible engagement. No other armorer course I went through did that. I wonder when the internet says this drop safety issue first came to light. I also remember a few variations of striker assemblies before the upgrade. Sig switched MIM and stamped parts on the striker assemblies prior to the upgrade. It would be interesting to find an original pre upgrade 320 and compare the measurements of the components to the most current model. Also the original LE version of the P320 could be ordered with the Glock style trigger safety. Sig dropped the option after a few years of no one ordering it. Since the internet says the military's external safety does nothing to make the P320 safe, I would love to see what the trigger safety would do. I wonder if the aftermarket will come out with a trigger shoe conversion for the 320 at some point. https://www.agencyarms.com/product/sig-p320-compatible-drop-in-trigger/ |
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Quoted: It would be interesting to be able to find out "the very beginning" statement. I ran a pistol evaluation in July of 2015 and the officers selected the P320 out of 4 different pistols. In September 2015 we took delivery of our first 250 pistols out of a total contract for 650. Sig gave me a list of departments in January 2016 that had already issued the P320 for uniformed officers. I think about 4 or 5 departments had 500 or more officers. I never heard a thing about any mystery discharges in the first two years I was issuing P320's to officers. Then in August 2017 the famous video came out and the internet exploded. Other than Sig explaining to me the data that the P320 did not originally pass the DoD 8 foot drop test in their evaluation, I had never thought about striker engagement. Sig sent me 450 replacement pistols for the ones we already had in service in December 2017. They also sent us through a second P320 Armorer course after the upgrade started. I know Glock has a special back plate that we used in their Armorer course to measure the striker to crucible engagement. No other armorer course I went through did that. I wonder when the internet says this drop safety issue first came to light. I also remember a few variations of striker assemblies before the upgrade. Sig switched MIM and stamped parts on the striker assemblies prior to the upgrade. It would be interesting to find an original pre upgrade 320 and compare the measurements of the components to the most current model. Also the original LE version of the P320 could be ordered with the Glock style trigger safety. Sig dropped the option after a few years of no one ordering it. Since the internet says the military's external safety does nothing to make the P320 safe, I would love to see what the trigger safety would do. I wonder if the aftermarket will come out with a trigger shoe conversion for the 320 at some point. Quoted: Quoted: 3) The Sig P320 has had UDs and drop discharge since the very beginning. Ever since these guns saw mass production and common adoption, these events have been happening. We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. It would be interesting to be able to find out "the very beginning" statement. I ran a pistol evaluation in July of 2015 and the officers selected the P320 out of 4 different pistols. In September 2015 we took delivery of our first 250 pistols out of a total contract for 650. Sig gave me a list of departments in January 2016 that had already issued the P320 for uniformed officers. I think about 4 or 5 departments had 500 or more officers. I never heard a thing about any mystery discharges in the first two years I was issuing P320's to officers. Then in August 2017 the famous video came out and the internet exploded. Other than Sig explaining to me the data that the P320 did not originally pass the DoD 8 foot drop test in their evaluation, I had never thought about striker engagement. Sig sent me 450 replacement pistols for the ones we already had in service in December 2017. They also sent us through a second P320 Armorer course after the upgrade started. I know Glock has a special back plate that we used in their Armorer course to measure the striker to crucible engagement. No other armorer course I went through did that. I wonder when the internet says this drop safety issue first came to light. I also remember a few variations of striker assemblies before the upgrade. Sig switched MIM and stamped parts on the striker assemblies prior to the upgrade. It would be interesting to find an original pre upgrade 320 and compare the measurements of the components to the most current model. Also the original LE version of the P320 could be ordered with the Glock style trigger safety. Sig dropped the option after a few years of no one ordering it. Since the internet says the military's external safety does nothing to make the P320 safe, I would love to see what the trigger safety would do. I wonder if the aftermarket will come out with a trigger shoe conversion for the 320 at some point. My suspicion is the trigger dingus would have made the original 320 drop safe, and the "upgrade" to make it drop safe may have introduced the occasional UD issue. |
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Quoted:My suspicion is the trigger dingus would have made the original 320 drop safe, and the "upgrade" to make it drop safe may have introduced the occasional UD issue. ETA thinking about it that may have made it look way more recall-y, maybe. I dunno. |
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Quoted: And there was another instance where on a .40 caliber Glock (back then) a mounted light would cause a problem that a police department noticed and brought it to their attention. Glock flew in 2 engineers from Smyrna. And one from Austria. They tried to replicate the problem onsite and review the testing procedure. They swapped firearms on the spot and took the defective ones back for high speed photographic testing. Tested them. Could see the problem and changed how the lights mounted or the rail. Cant remember. And then offered the department to swap ALL their firearms for just the cost of new night sites. Which they needed anyways. The department did that. Can't remember the department. Its in this monster of a thread somewhere. When we had issues with the POS SW99 from S&W breaking; they sent an engineering team to the agency to figure out and fix the issues we were having. Think they were on site for a couple of weeks getting things straight. Then we ditched the 99 and went to the M&P.
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Quoted: Looks like Bruce G flew up to NH in order to visit the mothership for some reason. Wonder what prompted that trip?  Attached File |
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Quoted: Makes one wonder why they didn't just dingus them instead of the whole other process. ETA thinking about it that may have made it look way more recall-y, maybe. I dunno. The other thing I was thinking is a change in the trigger would have been a change in the DoD contract after the award. I took delivery of 4 different batches of pistols, 250, 200, 450 and 200. I function tested everyone of them when I recorded the serial numbers. Each batch had different features. Larger slide release vs smaller one. Open back trigger vs closed trigger. As the COR, I had to go to contracting and verify the product changes were not an issue. A complete redesign of the trigger adding another safety feature would probably require some contract changes. Maybe even a Glock law suit saying see you had to adopt our style of trigger to make your product safe. |
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Quoted: None of the issues Glock faced are to the scale of a gun that shoots it's self. If it happened to Glock you really think they would just walk it back? with evidence on hand? Don't get me wrong I like Glock, after all my handle bares their name. I'm just not sure they would be doing much different fixing this problem if it were theirs. This is a problem with the potential to end a gun company of any size. I hate Glocks as a rule, but I have a hell of a lot of respect for the company after working with them over the years. They don't fuck around, especially when it comes to contracts. |
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Quoted: They would have already found a fix and issued a recall. I hate Glocks as a rule, but I have a hell of a lot of respect for the company after working with them over the years. They don't fuck around, especially when it comes to contracts. This seems to be a common theme. Dick Fairburn mentioned it in his video on the situation also, that the difference between modern (post Cohen) Sig and Glock could not be more stark in this regard. |
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Quoted: The other thing I was thinking is a change in the trigger would have been a change in the DoD contract after the award. I took delivery of 4 different batches of pistols, 250, 200, 450 and 200. I function tested everyone of them when I recorded the serial numbers. Each batch had different features. Larger slide release vs smaller one. Open back trigger vs closed trigger. As the COR, I had to go to contracting and verify the product changes were not an issue. Quoted: Quoted: Makes one wonder why they didn't just dingus them instead of the whole other process. ETA thinking about it that may have made it look way more recall-y, maybe. I dunno. The other thing I was thinking is a change in the trigger would have been a change in the DoD contract after the award. I took delivery of 4 different batches of pistols, 250, 200, 450 and 200. I function tested everyone of them when I recorded the serial numbers. Each batch had different features. Larger slide release vs smaller one. Open back trigger vs closed trigger. As the COR, I had to go to contracting and verify the product changes were not an issue. As it turns out, the product changes may indeed have been an issue. |
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Quoted:They would have already found a fix and issued a recall. I hate Glocks as a rule, but I have a hell of a lot of respect for the company after working with them over the years. They don't fuck around, especially when it comes to contracts. |
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Quoted: My suspicion is the trigger dingus would have made the original 320 drop safe, and the "upgrade" to make it drop safe may have introduced the occasional UD issue. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 3) The Sig P320 has had UDs and drop discharge since the very beginning. Ever since these guns saw mass production and common adoption, these events have been happening. We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. It would be interesting to be able to find out "the very beginning" statement. I ran a pistol evaluation in July of 2015 and the officers selected the P320 out of 4 different pistols. In September 2015 we took delivery of our first 250 pistols out of a total contract for 650. Sig gave me a list of departments in January 2016 that had already issued the P320 for uniformed officers. I think about 4 or 5 departments had 500 or more officers. I never heard a thing about any mystery discharges in the first two years I was issuing P320's to officers. Then in August 2017 the famous video came out and the internet exploded. Other than Sig explaining to me the data that the P320 did not originally pass the DoD 8 foot drop test in their evaluation, I had never thought about striker engagement. Sig sent me 450 replacement pistols for the ones we already had in service in December 2017. They also sent us through a second P320 Armorer course after the upgrade started. I know Glock has a special back plate that we used in their Armorer course to measure the striker to crucible engagement. No other armorer course I went through did that. I wonder when the internet says this drop safety issue first came to light. I also remember a few variations of striker assemblies before the upgrade. Sig switched MIM and stamped parts on the striker assemblies prior to the upgrade. It would be interesting to find an original pre upgrade 320 and compare the measurements of the components to the most current model. Also the original LE version of the P320 could be ordered with the Glock style trigger safety. Sig dropped the option after a few years of no one ordering it. Since the internet says the military's external safety does nothing to make the P320 safe, I would love to see what the trigger safety would do. I wonder if the aftermarket will come out with a trigger shoe conversion for the 320 at some point. My suspicion is the trigger dingus would have made the original 320 drop safe, and the "upgrade" to make it drop safe may have introduced the occasional UD issue. The dingus would have fixed the primary problem with drop safety. There's a good hypothesis that changes made after the drop issue may be responsible for the problem of sear movement back-feeding through the trigger bar, but a trigger dingus would also eliminate this problem. There would still be issues with both sear engagement and the striker block design, but there would be fewer holes in the Swiss cheese. |
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Quoted: As it turns out, the product changes may indeed have been an issue. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Makes one wonder why they didn't just dingus them instead of the whole other process. ETA thinking about it that may have made it look way more recall-y, maybe. I dunno. The other thing I was thinking is a change in the trigger would have been a change in the DoD contract after the award. I took delivery of 4 different batches of pistols, 250, 200, 450 and 200. I function tested everyone of them when I recorded the serial numbers. Each batch had different features. Larger slide release vs smaller one. Open back trigger vs closed trigger. As the COR, I had to go to contracting and verify the product changes were not an issue. As it turns out, the product changes may indeed have been an issue. I wonder how long it would've taken to figure out there was a drop issue if 320s has come standard with a trigger safety. |
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Quoted: I wonder how long it would've taken to figure out there was a drop issue if 320s has come standard with a trigger safety. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Makes one wonder why they didn't just dingus them instead of the whole other process. ETA thinking about it that may have made it look way more recall-y, maybe. I dunno. The other thing I was thinking is a change in the trigger would have been a change in the DoD contract after the award. I took delivery of 4 different batches of pistols, 250, 200, 450 and 200. I function tested everyone of them when I recorded the serial numbers. Each batch had different features. Larger slide release vs smaller one. Open back trigger vs closed trigger. As the COR, I had to go to contracting and verify the product changes were not an issue. As it turns out, the product changes may indeed have been an issue. I wonder how long it would've taken to figure out there was a drop issue if 320s has come standard with a trigger safety. Likely never since a dingus would have prevented the trigger moving backward when the rear of the slide was impacted - i.e. there would not have been a drop issue at all. |
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Quoted: I'm not sure about Glock, but S&W has 18 active recalls listed on their site, and Ruger has 15. Some of these are very old. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gz2LC8BXwAEdxTe?format=jpg&name=medium The risk to the business is different when you handle things in a timely manner and conduct a proper recall vs when you ignore warning signs, crank out 3.5+ million units, and make arrogant and aggressive public statements. But in the case of Sig, they wouldn't even call it a recall when it was shown countless times in well documented videos (that were easily repeatable), that the P320 could discharge if dropped on he ground, even when the trigger was not pulled. How they could call it a voluntary upgrade is beyond me...except to downplay an obvious manufacturing defect. And the most recent "it ends now" is just more gaslighting. |
