[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 56 of 142)
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Quoted: A firing pin block is necessary to prevent the firing pin from popping the primer without a trigger pull. Do you contend that these 320s have properly functioning sears? When the 320 is charged and holstered, the sear can be moved off the striker with a pick inserted into the back of the gun. This is because there is nothing locking the sear in place. No manual safety. The only thing holding the sear in place are the sear springs. So it could be moved off the striker by inertia if the gun is subjected to enough force in the right direction. If this happens, you'd need a secondary redundant system to prevent the striker from popping the primer. The reason a 1911 needs a firing pin block is because the sear doesn't hold the firing pin. The firing pin is only held in place by a spring (like the 320 sear) so the block is needed because inertia can pop the primer (1911 dropped on muzzle) absent a FP block. I've told you what my point is twice on this page, you just insist on spinning it into a defense of the P320 for some reason. The statement that started this was "Frankly I think the striker block is a secondary concern. A pistol with a faulty striker block and a properly functioning sear will function perfectly, albeit with a reduced margin for safety as parts wear. Conversely, a pistol with a good striker block and a faulty sear will fail to function properly and have a reduced margin for safety as parts wear." |
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Quoted: Same thing is happening around here. Went in to my local LGS the other day and they're boxing up the P320s. Ask 'em what they're doing and they say, "we're getting rid of these. Sales are slow and our lawyer said they're a liability risk if they go off on a buyer." Dude comes in while they're boxing up an M&P 3.6" for me and gets pissed when they tell him, "no can do. It's a liability risk." Storms out and peels out in his F-150. EDIT: Forgot to mention, they're going to have them melted down. Horseshit. <---FFL 1. Sell at or below cost to another dealer. 2. Return to distributor for refund or exchange. 3. Return to Sig for refund or exchange. 4. Sit on them until Sig has a fix. Having NIB firearms "melted down" is likely the most dumbass thing a dealer could do. |
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Quoted: I've told you what my point is twice on this page, you just insist on spinning it into a defense of the P320 for some reason. The statement that started this was "Frankly I think the striker block is a secondary concern. A pistol with a faulty striker block and a properly functioning sear will function perfectly, albeit with a reduced margin for safety as parts wear. Conversely, a pistol with a good striker block and a faulty sear will fail to function properly and have a reduced margin for safety as parts wear." Quoted: Quoted: A firing pin block is necessary to prevent the firing pin from popping the primer without a trigger pull. Do you contend that these 320s have properly functioning sears? When the 320 is charged and holstered, the sear can be moved off the striker with a pick inserted into the back of the gun. This is because there is nothing locking the sear in place. No manual safety. The only thing holding the sear in place are the sear springs. So it could be moved off the striker by inertia if the gun is subjected to enough force in the right direction. If this happens, you'd need a secondary redundant system to prevent the striker from popping the primer. The reason a 1911 needs a firing pin block is because the sear doesn't hold the firing pin. The firing pin is only held in place by a spring (like the 320 sear) so the block is needed because inertia can pop the primer (1911 dropped on muzzle) absent a FP block. I've told you what my point is twice on this page, you just insist on spinning it into a defense of the P320 for some reason. The statement that started this was "Frankly I think the striker block is a secondary concern. A pistol with a faulty striker block and a properly functioning sear will function perfectly, albeit with a reduced margin for safety as parts wear. Conversely, a pistol with a good striker block and a faulty sear will fail to function properly and have a reduced margin for safety as parts wear." At this point, I dont know what you are trying to argue. And I don't care to continue. |
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Quoted: Horseshit. <---FFL 1. Sell at or below cost to another dealer. 2. Return to distributor for refund or exchange. 3. Return to Sig for refund or exchange. 4. Sit on them until Sig has a fix. Having NIB firearms "melted down" is likely the most dumbass thing a dealer could do. Your options seem reasonable. But hysterical overreactions are common these days. |
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Quoted: At this point, I dont know what you are trying to argue. And I don't care to continue. You're too busy arguing with a straw man to understand. For a P320 to fire without a trigger pull, two mechanisms need to fail to do their job: the sear and the striker block. Of those two problems, the sear is the bigger deal. If Sig could wave a magic wand and make one part of the pistol never fail to function properly under any circumstance, they should choose the sear, not the striker block. |
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Quoted: You're too busy arguing with a straw man to understand. For a P320 to fire without a trigger pull, two mechanisms need to fail to do their job: the sear and the striker block. Of those two problems, the sear is the bigger deal. If Sig could wave a magic wand and make one part of the pistol never fail to function properly under any circumstance, they should choose the sear, not the striker block. Quoted: Quoted: At this point, I dont know what you are trying to argue. And I don't care to continue. You're too busy arguing with a straw man to understand. For a P320 to fire without a trigger pull, two mechanisms need to fail to do their job: the sear and the striker block. Of those two problems, the sear is the bigger deal. If Sig could wave a magic wand and make one part of the pistol never fail to function properly under any circumstance, they should choose the sear, not the striker block. Porque no los dos? |
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Quoted: 1. If they were worried about them being a liability they wouldn't spill the beans in the store to customers who may have already purchased p320s from them. 2. "Boxing them up" would be as you say, removing them from the display area and taking them in the back. Also most distributors will take product back if it is defective or recalled. You don't need to destroy the item. 3. What LGS has a furnace hot enough to melt steel? Maybe they were going to send them to Benchmade. 
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Quoted: Same thing is happening around here. Went in to my local LGS the other day and they're boxing up the P320s. Ask 'em what they're doing and they say, "we're getting rid of these. Sales are slow and our lawyer said they're a liability risk if they go off on a buyer." Dude comes in while they're boxing up an M&P 3.6" for me and gets pissed when they tell him, "no can do. It's a liability risk." Storms out and peels out in his F-150. EDIT: Forgot to mention, they're going to have them melted down. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Glock will sell a bunch of guns to people needing replacements. Maybe the gun stores hurting due to the Trump slump will get some business out of this. Not a fan of the broken window theory but will be interesting to watch the second order effects. I wonder what the pawn shops are offering for used 320s, if they even accept them at all. The gun store i moonlight in has stopped buying them. 1. They're not moving, 2. Liability if we sell one and it goes off. Same thing is happening around here. Went in to my local LGS the other day and they're boxing up the P320s. Ask 'em what they're doing and they say, "we're getting rid of these. Sales are slow and our lawyer said they're a liability risk if they go off on a buyer." Dude comes in while they're boxing up an M&P 3.6" for me and gets pissed when they tell him, "no can do. It's a liability risk." Storms out and peels out in his F-150. EDIT: Forgot to mention, they're going to have them melted down. Your LGS is going to send guns out to be melted down... Well, that's...a new one. |
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Quoted: You're too busy arguing with a straw man to understand. For a P320 to fire without a trigger pull, two mechanisms need to fail to do their job: the sear and the striker block. Of those two problems, the sear is the bigger deal. If Sig could wave a magic wand and make one part of the pistol never fail to function properly under any circumstance, they should choose the sear, not the striker block. Quoted: Quoted: At this point, I dont know what you are trying to argue. And I don't care to continue. You're too busy arguing with a straw man to understand. For a P320 to fire without a trigger pull, two mechanisms need to fail to do their job: the sear and the striker block. Of those two problems, the sear is the bigger deal. If Sig could wave a magic wand and make one part of the pistol never fail to function properly under any circumstance, they should choose the sear, not the striker block. ...and they both are. Both should be fixed. |
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Quoted: Same thing is happening around here. Went in to my local LGS the other day and they're boxing up the P320s. Ask 'em what they're doing and they say, "we're getting rid of these. Sales are slow and our lawyer said they're a liability risk if they go off on a buyer." Dude comes in while they're boxing up an M&P 3.6" for me and gets pissed when they tell him, "no can do. It's a liability risk." Storms out and peels out in his F-150. EDIT: Forgot to mention, they're going to have them melted down. Attached File |
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Quoted: You're too busy arguing with a straw man to understand. For a P320 to fire without a trigger pull, two mechanisms need to fail to do their job: the sear and the striker block. Of those two problems, the sear is the bigger deal. If Sig could wave a magic wand and make one part of the pistol never fail to function properly under any circumstance, they should choose the sear, not the striker block. Quoted: Quoted: At this point, I dont know what you are trying to argue. And I don't care to continue. You're too busy arguing with a straw man to understand. For a P320 to fire without a trigger pull, two mechanisms need to fail to do their job: the sear and the striker block. Of those two problems, the sear is the bigger deal. If Sig could wave a magic wand and make one part of the pistol never fail to function properly under any circumstance, they should choose the sear, not the striker block. I don't disagree with any of the part in bold, and I think if you go back though my posts that should be readily apparent. I just didn't get what all of the bickering over 1911s had to do with it because they aren't really comparable to the 320 sear situation, other than to illustrate that the 320 has nothing but springs keeping it in place. And the secondary notch on the 320 sear doesn't seem to be working either, because any inertial sear activations (no trigger pull) should be caught by the secondary notch before the striker safety even comes into play. |
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Quoted: I don't disagree with any of the part in bold, and I think if you go back though my posts that should be readily apparent. I just didn't get what all of the bickering over 1911s had to do with it because they aren't really comparable to the 320 sear situation, other than to illustrate that the 320 has nothing but springs keeping it in place. And the secondary notch on the 320 sear doesn't seem to be working either, because any inertial sear activations (no trigger pull) should be caught by the secondary notch before the striker safety even comes into play. 1911s are similar to a P320 with a non-functional striker block in that they are both only a sear failure away from firing uncommanded. The 1911's safety should hold the sear in place when it's on, but wear, poor gunsmithing, or poor manufacturing can change that and of course it does nothing when it's not applied. It was an example of why a properly functioning sear is more important than a properly functioning firing pin block. Unfortunately suggesting any similarity caused an emotional reaction. It's hard to say whether the secondary notch on the P320's sear is working or not because no one has managed to demonstrate a sear failure yet. If someone figures out just the right inputs necessary to cause the sear to let go we might find that the secondary notch has been catching it most of the time, or we might find that it never works. On the other hand, it's possible that no one will ever document a sear failure. |
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Quoted: Quoted: A series 80 firing pin safety will keep such 1911’s safe from a sear failure, but so will the half cock notch on other 1911’s. https://i.imgur.com/ZttXv9m.gif 
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Quoted: I could ask them more about the situation but I'm sure you and others in this thread would call me a liar again.  I'm telling you what they told me. If you don't like it, tough fucking shit for you. Pull your panties outta your crack buddy.  I didn't call you a liar. I highlighted what I called "horseshit" and that was your gun shops decision on what to do with their 320's. 1. Name the shop. 2. Clear your name. 3. Profit |
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Quoted: Some people are such deniers it's kinda sad Good friend is well invested in 320 platform Every time one goes off he has a million excuses Claims new springs and a safety fixes the gun making it as safe as a glock |
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Quoted: 1911s are similar to a P320 with a non-functional striker block in that they are both only a sear failure away from firing uncommanded. The 1911's safety should hold the sear in place when it's on, but wear, poor gunsmithing, or poor manufacturing can change that and of course it does nothing when it's not applied. It was an example of why a properly functioning sear is more important than a properly functioning firing pin block. Unfortunately suggesting any similarity caused an emotional reaction. It's hard to say whether the secondary notch on the P320's sear is working or not because no one has managed to demonstrate a sear failure yet. If someone figures out just the right inputs necessary to cause the sear to let go we might find that the secondary notch has been catching it most of the time, or we might find that it never works. On the other hand, it's possible that no one will ever document a sear failure. Quoted: Quoted: I don't disagree with any of the part in bold, and I think if you go back though my posts that should be readily apparent. I just didn't get what all of the bickering over 1911s had to do with it because they aren't really comparable to the 320 sear situation, other than to illustrate that the 320 has nothing but springs keeping it in place. And the secondary notch on the 320 sear doesn't seem to be working either, because any inertial sear activations (no trigger pull) should be caught by the secondary notch before the striker safety even comes into play. 1911s are similar to a P320 with a non-functional striker block in that they are both only a sear failure away from firing uncommanded. The 1911's safety should hold the sear in place when it's on, but wear, poor gunsmithing, or poor manufacturing can change that and of course it does nothing when it's not applied. It was an example of why a properly functioning sear is more important than a properly functioning firing pin block. Unfortunately suggesting any similarity caused an emotional reaction. It's hard to say whether the secondary notch on the P320's sear is working or not because no one has managed to demonstrate a sear failure yet. If someone figures out just the right inputs necessary to cause the sear to let go we might find that the secondary notch has been catching it most of the time, or we might find that it never works. On the other hand, it's possible that no one will ever document a sear failure. I can't remember the exact mechanics of a 1911, but doesn't the grip safety also prevent sear movement? Now that we have a repeatable test for the firing pin safety, we need to test for sear disengagement through external forces. Basically take out the firing pin safety entirely and have the gun rely solely on its sear, and then subject it to external forces. |
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Quoted: Pull your panties outta your crack buddy. I didn't call you a liar. I highlighted what I called "horseshit" and that was your gun shops decision on what to do with their 320's. 1. Name the shop. 2. Clear your name. 3. Profit Quoted: Quoted: I could ask them more about the situation but I'm sure you and others in this thread would call me a liar again. I'm telling you what they told me. If you don't like it, tough fucking shit for you. Pull your panties outta your crack buddy. I didn't call you a liar. I highlighted what I called "horseshit" and that was your gun shops decision on what to do with their 320's. 1. Name the shop. 2. Clear your name. 3. Profit Alright, you make a fair point. I apologize for going off on you. Buy you a pint to make it up to you? As for the shop, it's in my AO.  OPSEC.
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Quoted: If Glock were smart they'd offer a trade-in program. Take a margin hit, but it's not like their guns are moving much right now anyway, and besides, we all know their margin's pretty good. A Glock costs the same as a Dagger to make; and PSA is selling Dagger's with margin - so you know what Glocks margin has to be; meaning they could absorb it to bury their upstart competition who beat them to the sale. Quoted: Quoted: Glock will sell a bunch of guns to people needing replacements. Maybe the gun stores hurting due to the Trump slump will get some business out of this. Not a fan of the broken window theory but will be interesting to watch the second order effects. If Glock were smart they'd offer a trade-in program. Take a margin hit, but it's not like their guns are moving much right now anyway, and besides, we all know their margin's pretty good. A Glock costs the same as a Dagger to make; and PSA is selling Dagger's with margin - so you know what Glocks margin has to be; meaning they could absorb it to bury their upstart competition who beat them to the sale. |
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Quoted: Glock doesn't need to make that deal. With all the PD's dropping the Sig ND320 they don't need to do a trade in program. Quoted: Quoted: At this point I would take that deal. A G43x MOS and a Glock 19x MOS and they could have my M17 and P320. Glock doesn't need to make that deal. With all the PD's dropping the Sig ND320 they don't need to do a trade in program. I know that, but I can hope. 
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On a more serious note, have any of the uncommanded discharges caused a fatality? I think some folks have been hurt, but fortunately no deaths, correct? If that were to happen I could see that being Sig's death knell with all of the information that's out there right now. Not a criminal case but the bar is significantly lower for civil judgement and since it would be product liability instead of something protected by the Lawful Commerce in Arms act I can't see how they could evade it. |
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Quoted: On a more serious note, have any of the uncommanded discharges caused a fatality? I think some folks have been hurt, but fortunately no deaths, correct? If that were to happen I could see that being Sig's death knell with all of the information that's out there right now. Not a criminal case but the bar is significantly lower for civil judgement and since it would be product liability instead of something protected by the Lawful Commerce in Arms act I can't see how they could evade it. https://www.smbb.com/news-article/wrongful-death-lawsuit-filed-against-gunmaker-sig-sauer-after-local-business-owner-shot-killed-at-home-by-his-holstered-defectively-designed-p320-pistol/ |
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That’s a modified race gun. I’d wager grip safety is pinned and has a 2lb trigger. |
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Quoted: It means it's pretty far removed from any normal 1911. Meanwhile all of the sig issues revolve around everything from the basic big box 320 to the military contract M17's So? The assertion was that the half cock notch will catch the hammer. In that case it didn't. |
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Quoted: That makes more sense if you know exactly why it fired. I don’t, so I can’t speak to the half cock notch. Quoted: Quoted: So? The assertion was that the half cock notch will catch the hammer. In that case it didn't. That makes more sense if you know exactly why it fired. I don’t, so I can’t speak to the half cock notch. Lol. Sure, we don't know that the sear was jostled out of place during a mag change and failed to catch the half cock notch or ledge; tiny little elves might have chosen to kick the firing pin right when he inserted a mag. |
Maybe this has been posted previously Testing two P320's for Uncommanded Discharge: One PASS, one FAIL |
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His explanation around the 7min mark doesn't really make any sense. There will be plenty of time for the striker safety to drop when the striker is held back by the sear. Regardless something is definitely wrong. Probably tolerances. But there must be another problem (probably also tolerance related) of why the striker is releasing from the sear without "a long pokey thing". I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. |
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Quoted: His explanation around the 7min mark doesn't really make any sense. There will be plenty of time for the striker safety to drop when the striker is held back by the sear. Regardless something is definitely wrong. Probably tolerances. But there must be another problem (probably also tolerance related) of why the striker is releasing from the sear without "a long pokey thing". I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. Quoted: I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they’re securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. |
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Quoted: So? The assertion was that the half cock notch will catch the hammer. In that case it didn't. In the case of a competition 1911 with light sear spring (that flat spring 3 finger affair), low hammer weights, and low hammer spring forces.... things can bounce and move dynamically. Its possible in the video the hammer bounced around and skipped over the half cock trap. As a general statment I wouldn't take a modified 1911 competition gun as the average of 1911's. It's been highly modified. We don't know if the p320 in the last range incident was of similar modification in fairness to the p320. |
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Quoted: The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they're securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. Quoted: Quoted: I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they're securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. |
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Quoted: Right. I'm just saying I haven't heard of dead triggers during use. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they're securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. Exactly. And if someone was at the range, and it occurred, there’s a good chance they would just tap, rack, and bang, and never think twice about it. |
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Quoted: A lot of these discussions get overly simplified. In the case of a sear surface failure on a 1911, the larger half cock notch (which is more of a trap shape than a sear surface) should catch the hammer. In the case of a competition 1911 with light sear spring (that flat spring 3 finger affair), low hammer weights, and low hammer spring forces.... things can bounce and move dynamically. Its possible in the video the hammer bounced around and skipped over the half cock trap. As a general statment I wouldn't take a modified 1911 competition gun as the average of 1911's. It's been highly modified. We don't know if the p320 in the last range incident was of similar modification in fairness to the p320. Quoted: Quoted: So? The assertion was that the half cock notch will catch the hammer. In that case it didn't. In the case of a competition 1911 with light sear spring (that flat spring 3 finger affair), low hammer weights, and low hammer spring forces.... things can bounce and move dynamically. Its possible in the video the hammer bounced around and skipped over the half cock trap. As a general statment I wouldn't take a modified 1911 competition gun as the average of 1911's. It's been highly modified. We don't know if the p320 in the last range incident was of similar modification in fairness to the p320. It doesn't make the 320 design any better or worse and it doesn't justify or condemn anything. It doesn't make what's going on with the 320 one iota more or less acceptable. |
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What always confused me was that people trusted Ron Cohen Sig even before all of this was known. Given what he did to Kimber, the constant releasing of shit products that get beta tested on consumers, and the inevitable abandonment of customers as each gun gets a new generation every year, I don't know why anyone was interested in the P320 in the first place. It's even more confusing now that we know about the drop test failures and these UDs. Sig has been garbage for over a decade. It's not surprising that the 320 turned out to be garbage too. In fact, it was perfectly predictable. |
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Quoted: Right. I'm just saying I haven't heard of dead triggers during use. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they're securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. Why would the trigger be dead? A slipped main sear caught by the safety sear, will release the spring tensioned striker via movement of the safety sear upon trigger pull - and go Bang per normal. Yes, the spring tension is less, but there may well still be enough to light. That, or the operator hears a "click", see's a dimpled primer (which he will), and just mutters "POS White Box", racks the slide, and off he goes. At no time is he going to mentally note that as a gun failure. Primer got hit when he pulled the trigger - gun went click, primer has dimple. Must be bad ammo. Rack slide and continue. |
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Quoted: I can't remember the exact mechanics of a 1911, but doesn't the grip safety also prevent sear movement? Now that we have a repeatable test for the firing pin safety, we need to test for sear disengagement through external forces. Basically take out the firing pin safety entirely and have the gun rely solely on its sear, and then subject it to external forces. Just need to smack the butt of the gun down hard onto a sturdy table. |
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Quoted: Why would the trigger be dead? A slipped main sear caught by the safety sear, will release the spring tensioned striker via movement of the safety sear upon trigger pull - and go Bang per normal. Yes, the spring tension is less, but there may well still be enough to light. That, or the operator hears a "click", see's a dimpled primer (which he will), and just mutters "POS White Box", racks the slide, and off he goes. At no time is he going to mentally note that as a gun failure. Primer got hit when he pulled the trigger - gun went click, primer has dimple. Must be bad ammo. Rack slide and continue. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they're securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. Why would the trigger be dead? A slipped main sear caught by the safety sear, will release the spring tensioned striker via movement of the safety sear upon trigger pull - and go Bang per normal. Yes, the spring tension is less, but there may well still be enough to light. That, or the operator hears a "click", see's a dimpled primer (which he will), and just mutters "POS White Box", racks the slide, and off he goes. At no time is he going to mentally note that as a gun failure. Primer got hit when he pulled the trigger - gun went click, primer has dimple. Must be bad ammo. Rack slide and continue. Which is exactly what I suspect happened to one of our SWAT guys a year or two back with his 320 X5. Light strike, light strike, light strike, over and over. Field strip, nothing looks wrong, put back together and it goes bang again. My guess is that the sear was failing to catch the striker, and when he pulled the trigger he was just releasing it off of the safety sear. |
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Quoted: It means, just like a Glock, you can make it unsafe if you try hard enough. Sig is exactly the same, minus the making people try hard part. Mine is a box Stock Legion. I haven’t changed a single part in the grip, fcu, and have only replaced the sights. Mine fails all the tests in this thread. Are you alleging that I somehow made it unsafe by…opening the box |