[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 76 of 142)
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Quoted: It's an important picture, and it's not given the weight that it should in these discussions. SIG themselves submitted a picture showing primer indentation on three of ten pistols after vibration and jolt testing. Pistols with a firing pin block. More than that, it shows SIG's knowledge of block failures on almost 1/3 of their guns, and SIGs willingness to submit this into evidence in a suit and tell you not to believe your lying eyes. And yet still people say "prove it to me!". SIG did. My first time seeing this was a few pages ago, and you're right, I think it's the key piece of evidence for this whole thing. Sig themselves provided pictures showing that the P320's firing pin safety block is not stopping the firing pin from hitting primers when the pistol is under movement. That's it. End of story. Done. No other evidence is needed. The pistol is fucking broken and should be deleted from existence. |
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Quoted: What if a stamped striker block with an unfinished, stamped edge is able to be bashed out of the way of the striker ledge? This would slow the striker somewhat by absorbing some of the energy while still allowing it to protrude from the breech face and cause a light strike. Quoted: Quoted: Phil said in the MAC video that they made 3.5 million P320s (IIRC) so we are talking 105 million bucks of saving. Doesn't matter at all, not one iota. The final line of defense against any unintentional BOOM is that striker block. The block should not allow the striker to move all the way forward unless the trigger is pulled. If the block did not move or physically fail then NONE of those primers should have the slightest indentation. The only way they get an indentation is if the striker block mechanism (the one part of the pistol that absolutely CANNOT fail even on the worst day) failed. Even if the pistol didn't go BOOM, that picture tells me all I need to know. There is a severe design flaw somewhere in the 320 system. What if a stamped striker block with an unfinished, stamped edge is able to be bashed out of the way of the striker ledge? This would slow the striker somewhat by absorbing some of the energy while still allowing it to protrude from the breech face and cause a light strike. Then it comes down to the primer sensitivity. CCI primer? Click. Federal primer? BOOM! |
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Quoted: Then it comes down to the primer sensitivity. CCI primer? Click. Federal primer? BOOM! Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Phil said in the MAC video that they made 3.5 million P320s (IIRC) so we are talking 105 million bucks of saving. Doesn't matter at all, not one iota. The final line of defense against any unintentional BOOM is that striker block. The block should not allow the striker to move all the way forward unless the trigger is pulled. If the block did not move or physically fail then NONE of those primers should have the slightest indentation. The only way they get an indentation is if the striker block mechanism (the one part of the pistol that absolutely CANNOT fail even on the worst day) failed. Even if the pistol didn't go BOOM, that picture tells me all I need to know. There is a severe design flaw somewhere in the 320 system. What if a stamped striker block with an unfinished, stamped edge is able to be bashed out of the way of the striker ledge? This would slow the striker somewhat by absorbing some of the energy while still allowing it to protrude from the breech face and cause a light strike. Then it comes down to the primer sensitivity. CCI primer? Click. Federal primer? BOOM! https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/personal-defense-hst/11-P9HST3S.html  You might be on to something here... |
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Saw this posted on Facebook on a P320 owners group Attached File I think the last straw was the change in the manual, instead of rolling out a fix. Not only will that cost contracts, but how is that going to look in court? Dumb dumb dumb. |
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Quoted: Saw this posted on Facebook on a P320 owners group https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17974/1000026480_jpg-3541199.JPG I think the last straw was the change in the manual, instead of rolling out a fix. Not only will that cost contracts, but how is that going to look in court? Dumb dumb dumb. Then Cohen will eject. Just like he did at Kimber. |
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Quoted: At this point, Cohen is just kicking the can down the road while watching the horizon for the four horsemen of the consequences apocalypse to appear. Then Cohen will eject. Just like he did at Kimber. Quoted: Quoted: Saw this posted on Facebook on a P320 owners group https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17974/1000026480_jpg-3541199.JPG I think the last straw was the change in the manual, instead of rolling out a fix. Not only will that cost contracts, but how is that going to look in court? Dumb dumb dumb. Then Cohen will eject. Just like he did at Kimber.  While some junior engineer who's sharing a cinderblock office will be left holding the bag. |
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Quoted: My first time seeing this was a few pages ago, and you're right, I think it's the key piece of evidence for this whole thing. Sig themselves provided pictures showing that the P320's firing pin safety block is not stopping the firing pin from hitting primers when the pistol is under movement. That's it. End of story. Done. No other evidence is needed. The pistol is fucking broken and should be deleted from existence. |
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Quoted: This, if those test results came from SIG it's over IMO. It's not just about the striker safety , the striker had to let go from the sear before the block was defeated. The people that told us it was impossible seem to be absent from this thread now. Good point. I've been so focused on trying to solve the striker issue I didn't even think about the sear.  To rephrase:Sig themselves provided multiple pictures of light primer strikes caused by P320s during vibration tests. This means the sear released the striker AND the striker bypassed the striker safety all by themselves. No trigger pull, just movement. That's it. Done. Fin. That's all that's needed. There is literally no other evidence required. The gun is fucking broken and should be deleted from existence. |
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Quoted: https://comptool.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Golden-Parachute.jpg While some junior engineer who's sharing a cinderblock office will be left holding the bag. |
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Quoted: Good point. I've been so focused on trying to solve the striker issue I didn't even think about the sear. To rephrase:Sig themselves provided multiple pictures of light primer strikes caused by P320s during vibration tests. This means the sear released the striker AND the striker bypassed the striker safety all by themselves. No trigger pull, just movement. That's it. Done. Fin. That's all that's needed. There is literally no other evidence required. The gun is fucking broken and should be deleted from existence. Quoted: Quoted: This, if those test results came from SIG it's over IMO. It's not just about the striker safety , the striker had to let go from the sear before the block was defeated. The people that told us it was impossible seem to be absent from this thread now. Good point. I've been so focused on trying to solve the striker issue I didn't even think about the sear. To rephrase:Sig themselves provided multiple pictures of light primer strikes caused by P320s during vibration tests. This means the sear released the striker AND the striker bypassed the striker safety all by themselves. No trigger pull, just movement. That's it. Done. Fin. That's all that's needed. There is literally no other evidence required. The gun is fucking broken and should be deleted from existence. And SIG lied about it |
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FTR I like MGW. They have been quick to ship stuff and have had some obscure parts I wanted in stock. But I wonder if a lot of retailers are having trouble moving Sig stuff lately. Attached File |
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Quoted: FTR I like MGW. They have been quick to ship stuff and have had some obscure parts I wanted in stock. But I wonder if a lot of retailers are having trouble moving Sig stuff lately. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/80518/1000018937_jpg-3541545.JPG No need to wonder... it's a fact |
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Quoted: No need to wonder... it's a fact It will get really bad for them once this hits the normies conversations. So far, I’m not hearing customers talk about this much at all except for the few that are really into firearms and follow things like this. Most of our customers are more worried about price and size vs make and model. We do sell a lot of Sig products but it’s 365s almost exclusively. The two exceptions are the X5 Legion which still moves pretty well and the Legion Flux which has zero shelf life. |
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Quoted: It will get really bad for them once this hits the normies conversations. So far, I’m not hearing customers talk about this much at all except for the few that are really into firearms and follow things like this. Most of our customers are more worried about price and size vs make and model. We do sell a lot of Sig products but it’s 365s almost exclusively. The two exceptions are the X5 Legion which still moves pretty well and the Legion Flux which has zero shelf life. Quoted: Quoted: No need to wonder... it's a fact It will get really bad for them once this hits the normies conversations. So far, I’m not hearing customers talk about this much at all except for the few that are really into firearms and follow things like this. Most of our customers are more worried about price and size vs make and model. We do sell a lot of Sig products but it’s 365s almost exclusively. The two exceptions are the X5 Legion which still moves pretty well and the Legion Flux which has zero shelf life. I think this bar is moving pretty fast. This isn't a quiet corner thing with just a couple of Arfcom threads and the Trenchcoat videos. Brandon Herrera has two meme videos with over 2M views combined, the P320 has been banned by LE academies in two states, and that Christian Warrior Training report is going to reach a pretty big audience. Low information gun buyers that walk into retail stores and buy on price point may have no idea, but those are not the majority of customers. Even if people aren't enthusiasts, a good subset of people will get on the internet and look for reviews before buying anything over a certain price point. Anyone who takes 30 seconds to search Google or YouTube for the P320 are going to get this discussion front and center. In order for someone to be completely unaware, they have to have zero interest in guns, and they have to go gun shopping without Googling anything. |
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Quoted: FTR I like MGW. They have been quick to ship stuff and have had some obscure parts I wanted in stock. But I wonder if a lot of retailers are having trouble moving Sig stuff lately. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/80518/1000018937_jpg-3541545.JPG MGW is great, sort of like what Brownells was once purported to be. I just got a bunch of parts from them to recondition my 1967 T-series BHP. But yeah basically everyone has these on sale, so I assume it's coming from Sig. |
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SIG's are 10% off everywhere- online, gun stores, whatever. Regarding them not moving, the store I moonlight at hasn't sold a new 320 in weeks. We did sell a used one we had, but we really aren't buying them- not necessarily because of the issues, but just because of demand. They did buy one the other day, offered the guy $250 for basically a new M18- and he took it. I do think the controversy has worked its way into the general gun shopping population. |
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Quoted: What happened to the supposed "fix" by the sig armorer? My google fu may be weak but I couldn't find any announcement that came out He releases a part that doesn't work he gets to be part of the lawsuits. I wouldn't risk it at this point. |
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Quoted: I think this bar is moving pretty fast. This isn't a quiet corner thing with just a couple of Arfcom threads and the Trenchcoat videos. Brandon Herrera has two meme videos with over 2M views combined, the P320 has been banned by LE academies in two states, and that Christian Warrior Training report is going to reach a pretty big audience. Low information gun buyers that walk into retail stores and buy on price point may have no idea, but those are not the majority of customers. Even if people aren't enthusiasts, a good subset of people will get on the internet and look for reviews before buying anything over a certain price point. Anyone who takes 30 seconds to search Google or YouTube for the P320 are going to get this discussion front and center. In order for someone to be completely unaware, they have to have zero interest in guns, and they have to go gun shopping without Googling anything. It’s nuts how many people I deal with that come in and say I’m looking to buy a gun but have not thought things through past that statement much less done any research. Now, it’s not every single one, but I’d say it’s probably 40% or so. |
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Quoted: It is, there’s so much engagement bait right now, but something from SIG armorer would have been worth paying attention to. I really want an m18, the mil issue one not the commercial; but they are low market availability and command a premium so have held off because of the multitude of suspected issues(no news articles on it but my dad works at our county courthouse and one of the deputies here also had an uncommanded holster discharge). I was really hoping with the steam of the internets response to sigs dumb ass statement would force a fix to come out, by sig or otherwise, but I guess as long as sig has those sweet sweet gov contracts they can keep playing head in the sand retarded on this issue |
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Quoted: ... no news articles on it but my dad works at our county courthouse and one of the deputies here also had an uncommanded holster discharge). Really makes you wonder exactly HOW widespread this is and how many UCDs the P320 has had. If people don't report it or chalk it up to "shit happens, it won't happen again, SIG says these are the bestest evar, etc." then the number may be MUCH higher than we currently know. If it happened to a private citizen with no injury, why would they even bother to report it? Courthouse security may not like the paperwork and scrutiny that comes with a holster pop so it gets brushed under the rug and they go get a GLOCK. |
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Quoted: Really makes you wonder exactly HOW widespread this is and how many UCDs the P320 has had. If people don't report it or chalk it up to "shit happens, it won't happen again, SIG says these are the bestest evar, etc." then the number may be MUCH higher than we currently know. If it happened to a private citizen with no injury, why would they even bother to report it? Courthouse security may not like the paperwork and scrutiny that comes with a holster pop so it gets brushed under the rug and they go get a GLOCK. Quoted: Quoted: ... no news articles on it but my dad works at our county courthouse and one of the deputies here also had an uncommanded holster discharge). Really makes you wonder exactly HOW widespread this is and how many UCDs the P320 has had. If people don't report it or chalk it up to "shit happens, it won't happen again, SIG says these are the bestest evar, etc." then the number may be MUCH higher than we currently know. If it happened to a private citizen with no injury, why would they even bother to report it? Courthouse security may not like the paperwork and scrutiny that comes with a holster pop so it gets brushed under the rug and they go get a GLOCK. Bank on it. the actual numbers will far outweigh the # erroneously reported false claims on that one. |
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Quoted: I think this bar is moving pretty fast. This isn't a quiet corner thing with just a couple of Arfcom threads and the Trenchcoat videos. Brandon Herrera has two meme videos with over 2M views combined, the P320 has been banned by LE academies in two states, and that Christian Warrior Training report is going to reach a pretty big audience. Low information gun buyers that walk into retail stores and buy on price point may have no idea, but those are not the majority of customers. Even if people aren't enthusiasts, a good subset of people will get on the internet and look for reviews before buying anything over a certain price point. Anyone who takes 30 seconds to search Google or YouTube for the P320 are going to get this discussion front and center. In order for someone to be completely unaware, they have to have zero interest in guns, and they have to go gun shopping without Googling anything. I would extrapolate that whatever police departments do, the market will follow. Think 40 S&W. When police were carrying mostly Glocks, the market was mostly buying Glocks. I'm not saying it's that simple, but a lot of the same stuff that move police will move the gun buyers in general. |
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Quoted: I only own one P320 but it’s a AGX scorpion and I have 15 mags for it. At the time I bought it the pistol seemed to be sorted out and have a good reputation. Oh well it may well be fine...that's the problem; we don't know what the exact issue is so some guns are fine, some aren't, so it's like playing russian roulette while you carry. |
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I hope that is in Israeli carry condition. An M18/M17, with the safety off, in a Serpa -  Edit for mistaken terminology. |
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Quoted: I hope that is in condition two. An M18, with the safety off, in a Serpa - Quoted: I hope that is in condition two. An M18, with the safety off, in a Serpa - Re-enlistment ceremony, most likely. No magazine in the gun. |
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Quoted: Re-enlistment ceremony, most likely. No magazine in the gun. Quoted: Quoted: I hope that is in condition two. An M18, with the safety off, in a Serpa - Re-enlistment ceremony, most likely. No magazine in the gun. I think you mean no rounds. I have been wrong but I think there’s a magazine there
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Quoted: it may well be fine...that's the problem; we don't know what the exact issue is so some guns are fine, some aren't, so it's like playing russian roulette while you carry. Quoted: Quoted: I only own one P320 but it's a AGX scorpion and I have 15 mags for it. At the time I bought it the pistol seemed to be sorted out and have a good reputation. Oh well it may well be fine...that's the problem; we don't know what the exact issue is so some guns are fine, some aren't, so it's like playing russian roulette while you carry. I've tried to stay very objective through this whole thing, but It's just about to the point where I think anyone who is still carrying one of these is kinda crazy. |
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IMHO, SIG fucked up when they decided to save some coin by initially reusing the P250 grip for the P320. That locked them into some poor geometry, which required the Rube Goldberg inspired FCG. So, it ended up being a single action mechanism, in which the safety doesn't physically block sear disengagement, and a striker block that oddly pivots behind its catch surface. Had they started with a clean sheet design, they would have been able to have a simpler mechanism with better geometry, and a plunger style striker block. I really hope a good fix for the P320 becomes available. As is, I feel like I wasted my money on the one I bought. When I bought it, I believed that it was incorrect holsters, and/or foreign objects pulling the trigger in the ND cases. I wasn't worried about NDs, because I was going to make sure to use a good quality holster made for my pistol. Now, I don't trust the design, and will not carry it. |
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Quoted: I really want an m18, the mil issue one not the commercial; but they are low market availability and command a premium so have held off because of the multitude of suspected issues(no news articles on it but my dad works at our county courthouse and one of the deputies here also had an uncommanded holster discharge). I was really hoping with the steam of the internets response to sigs dumb ass statement would force a fix to come out, by sig or otherwise, but I guess as long as sig has those sweet sweet gov contracts they can keep playing head in the sand retarded on this issue Quoted: Quoted: It is, there’s so much engagement bait right now, but something from SIG armorer would have been worth paying attention to. I really want an m18, the mil issue one not the commercial; but they are low market availability and command a premium so have held off because of the multitude of suspected issues(no news articles on it but my dad works at our county courthouse and one of the deputies here also had an uncommanded holster discharge). I was really hoping with the steam of the internets response to sigs dumb ass statement would force a fix to come out, by sig or otherwise, but I guess as long as sig has those sweet sweet gov contracts they can keep playing head in the sand retarded on this issue Would you be willing to post the approximate date and the county? |
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Quoted: You sure about that? Quoted: Quoted: Re-enlistment ceremony, most likely. No magazine in the gun. You sure about that? Quoted: I think you mean no rounds. I have been wrong but I think there’s a magazine there Oops.
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Quoted: Would you be willing to post the approximate date and the county? Within the last 5 years in Michigan is as far as I can go as there may be some additional litigation due to recent events involving other Sigs; again there is no public information on this incident so unfortunately everyone here would have to take my word on it, for whatever that is worth. |
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Safety off and in a serpa, that thing is a time bomb! |
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Quoted: Within the last 5 years in Michigan is as far as I can go as there may be some additional litigation due to recent events involving other Sigs; again there is no public information on this incident so unfortunately everyone here would have to take my word on it, for whatever that is worth. Quoted: Quoted: Would you be willing to post the approximate date and the county? Within the last 5 years in Michigan is as far as I can go as there may be some additional litigation due to recent events involving other Sigs; again there is no public information on this incident so unfortunately everyone here would have to take my word on it, for whatever that is worth. No worries, man. Not trying to get anyone doxed. Have a Tech thread in the SIG forum here trying to get links to all known incidents. |
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Quoted: Safety off and in a serpa, that thing is a time bomb! Quoted: Safety off and in a serpa, that thing is a time bomb! There’s a 99.9987% chance it has no ammo. Quoted: I would extrapolate that whatever police departments do, the market will follow. Think 40 S&W. When police were carrying mostly Glocks, the market was mostly buying Glocks. I'm not saying it's that simple, but a lot of the same stuff that move police will move the gun buyers in general. |
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Quoted: I would extrapolate that whatever police departments do, the market will follow. Think 40 S&W. When police were carrying mostly Glocks, the market was mostly buying Glocks. I'm not saying it's that simple, but a lot of the same stuff that move police will move the gun buyers in general. Quoted: Quoted: I think this bar is moving pretty fast. This isn't a quiet corner thing with just a couple of Arfcom threads and the Trenchcoat videos. Brandon Herrera has two meme videos with over 2M views combined, the P320 has been banned by LE academies in two states, and that Christian Warrior Training report is going to reach a pretty big audience. Low information gun buyers that walk into retail stores and buy on price point may have no idea, but those are not the majority of customers. Even if people aren't enthusiasts, a good subset of people will get on the internet and look for reviews before buying anything over a certain price point. Anyone who takes 30 seconds to search Google or YouTube for the P320 are going to get this discussion front and center. In order for someone to be completely unaware, they have to have zero interest in guns, and they have to go gun shopping without Googling anything. I would extrapolate that whatever police departments do, the market will follow. Think 40 S&W. When police were carrying mostly Glocks, the market was mostly buying Glocks. I'm not saying it's that simple, but a lot of the same stuff that move police will move the gun buyers in general. That’s certainly a big influence. |
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Quoted: It’s nuts how many people I deal with that come in and say I’m looking to buy a gun but have not thought things through past that statement much less done any research. Now, it’s not every single one, but I’d say it’s probably 40% or so. Quoted: Quoted: I think this bar is moving pretty fast. This isn't a quiet corner thing with just a couple of Arfcom threads and the Trenchcoat videos. Brandon Herrera has two meme videos with over 2M views combined, the P320 has been banned by LE academies in two states, and that Christian Warrior Training report is going to reach a pretty big audience. Low information gun buyers that walk into retail stores and buy on price point may have no idea, but those are not the majority of customers. Even if people aren't enthusiasts, a good subset of people will get on the internet and look for reviews before buying anything over a certain price point. Anyone who takes 30 seconds to search Google or YouTube for the P320 are going to get this discussion front and center. In order for someone to be completely unaware, they have to have zero interest in guns, and they have to go gun shopping without Googling anything. It’s nuts how many people I deal with that come in and say I’m looking to buy a gun but have not thought things through past that statement much less done any research. Now, it’s not every single one, but I’d say it’s probably 40% or so. If I owned a gun shop, i would pull P320s from the shelf and would not be buying the used. I also wouldn't work on one if I were a gun smith. Or allow them on my range if I owned a public range or ran classes. It doesn't seem prudent to risk your hard earned money and business, to be involved with Sig's problems and lawsuits. There was a guy shooting a P320 at the last match I went to... Luckily he was in a different squad. I won't be surprised if all the businesses run away from the liability of this nonsense. I feel bad for the people and businesses who are up to their eyeballs in Sig junk. We have a local gunshop that's balls deep in Sig, like 40% of the place is devoted to Sig products. i have a feeling this is going to suck for them. |
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Quoted: And some guns may be fine until a certain round count and then they aren't, depending on what the issue is. I've tried to stay very objective through this whole thing, but It's just about to the point where I think anyone who is still carrying one of these is kinda crazy. I'll throw another hypothesis out there: some holsters may force enough flex to widen the gap between the frame and slide and the striker slips off the sear. Throw in a non-functioning firing pin safety and bang. I have yet to read about a 320 that went off that wasn't in a holster. |