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Quoted: The mythical status (or outright fetishizing) of samurai battle prowess (or Japan in general) is probably the reason this thread is the way it is. The US, technically the most well-armed and well-trained military regulars in the world, struggled for years to defeat the American Indians. They were routed at places like Wabash and Little Bighorn. That includes the equipment advantages the US had. Well before that, the US, France, and Britain certainly struggled to defeat them in early colonial days. And as has been mentioned, the Indians held off the Mexicans and the Spanish in the American southwest for hundreds of years. They were very effective warriors no matter how you want to look at it. Besides, look at Afghanistan. Third-world peasants and goat herders with patchwork armaments, IEDs, dirty nightshirts and flip-flops held off the most powerful and well-funded army in the world for twenty years until they left in defeat. Who had that one on their bingo card? View Quote When did the US actively try to eradicate native Americans? How long did it take once that decision was made? If the US went total war with Afghanistan, how long would it have lasted? We didn’t win Afghanistan because the mission was not to defeat the Afghans. A President with The Football and 25 minutes could end Afghanistan. We were there to grow heroin for the CIA. Notice as soon as a globalist President showed up, we lost Afghanistan? Notice since Eisenhower warned us of the MIC, we lost almost every conflict except Iraq I? |
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Quoted: Here’s a picture of an Indian with a katana: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/74968/A1A631C9-6DDD-4CAB-A4DD-956E4D6D1916-2393323.jpg I don’t know where he got it, and as far as I know no white man knows to this day. My point is, though, that in that era the Japanese weren’t selling them at gift shops. He either won it in battle or was given it as a token of respect. Unless you can show me a 19th Century photo of a Samurai with a tomahawk, I’m gonna have to go with the Indians in this one. View Quote Dude was just ahead of his time. Modified appendix carry with a lanyard. |
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Quoted: You do realize they’re “Native Americans” before any whiteboy dragged his dick ashore. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Samurai wins. X2 Your asses. AMERICAN Indians all day!!! USA! USA! You do realize they’re “Native Americans” before any whiteboy dragged his dick ashore. Boy? Those were men of the hardest sort. But, you already knew that. People like you use that term in a feeble and transparent attempt to mask your insecurity. |
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Quoted: things that never happened for 500 alex! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Fun fact: one of the conquistadors who put ashore at tampa and went tramping north and all over florida and eventually the south/texas area reported that in north florida/panhandle region, they encountered a tribe with archers who shot gigantic bows with huge arrows that hit with enough force ... they reported one of them shot a horse in it's front and when the arrow finally stooped it had protruded from the rump of the horse. One of those "Oh by the way this happened" reports. things that never happened for 500 alex! So you're saying they didn't report it eh? You did read that bit, right? "The history of florida" Edited by Michael Gannon. Chapter 2, page 31, chapter "First European Contacts" The book's publisher here: https://upf.com/book.asp?id=9780813064017 Find it cheap here: https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?full=on&ac=sl&st=sl&qi=y96p5bKpIqE124i18SF6Tk3WnxY_1653256939_1:2:1 Hernando desoto's mission of exploration: "The Spaniards marveled at the velocity and accuracy of the arrows discharged against them by the native's tall stiff bows. This would be particularly so in Apalachee, where the projectiles were said to have penetrated horses lengthwise nearly from chest to tail, and desoto watched one captured archer place an arrow through two coats of Milan chain steel from eighty feet back. The best defense, the Spaniards eventually learned, was to wear quilted fabric three or four fingers thick under their chain mail." And the original source is (if I'm reading the endnotes right) found here: https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/2771078 @Glock63 |
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Quoted: So you're saying they didn't report it eh? You did read that bit, right? "The history of florida" Edited by Michael Gannon. Chapter 2, page 31, chapter "First European Contacts" The book's publisher here: https://upf.com/book.asp?id=9780813064017 Find it cheap here: https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?full=on&ac=sl&st=sl&qi=y96p5bKpIqE124i18SF6Tk3WnxY_1653256939_1:2:1 Hernando desoto's mission of exploration: "The Spaniards marveled at the velocity and accuracy of the arrows discharged against them by the native's tall stiff bows. This would be particularly so in Apalachee, where the projectiles were said to have penetrated horses lengthwise nearly from chest to tail, and desoto watched one captured archer place an arrow through two coats of Milan chain steel from eighty feet back. The best defense, the Spaniards eventually learned, was to wear quilted fabric three or four fingers thick under their chain mail." And the original source is (if I'm reading the endnotes right) found here: https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/2771078 @Glock63 View Quote "In like Flint" |
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Quoted: So you're saying they didn't report it eh? You did read that bit, right? "The history of florida" Edited by Michael Gannon. Chapter 2, page 31, chapter "First European Contacts" The book's publisher here: https://upf.com/book.asp?id=9780813064017 Find it cheap here: https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?full=on&ac=sl&st=sl&qi=y96p5bKpIqE124i18SF6Tk3WnxY_1653256939_1:2:1 Hernando desoto's mission of exploration: "The Spaniards marveled at the velocity and accuracy of the arrows discharged against them by the native's tall stiff bows. This would be particularly so in Apalachee, where the projectiles were said to have penetrated horses lengthwise nearly from chest to tail, and desoto watched one captured archer place an arrow through two coats of Milan chain steel from eighty feet back. The best defense, the Spaniards eventually learned, was to wear quilted fabric three or four fingers thick under their chain mail." And the original source is (if I'm reading the endnotes right) found here: https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/2771078 @Glock63 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fun fact: one of the conquistadors who put ashore at tampa and went tramping north and all over florida and eventually the south/texas area reported that in north florida/panhandle region, they encountered a tribe with archers who shot gigantic bows with huge arrows that hit with enough force ... they reported one of them shot a horse in it's front and when the arrow finally stooped it had protruded from the rump of the horse. One of those "Oh by the way this happened" reports. things that never happened for 500 alex! So you're saying they didn't report it eh? You did read that bit, right? "The history of florida" Edited by Michael Gannon. Chapter 2, page 31, chapter "First European Contacts" The book's publisher here: https://upf.com/book.asp?id=9780813064017 Find it cheap here: https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?full=on&ac=sl&st=sl&qi=y96p5bKpIqE124i18SF6Tk3WnxY_1653256939_1:2:1 Hernando desoto's mission of exploration: "The Spaniards marveled at the velocity and accuracy of the arrows discharged against them by the native's tall stiff bows. This would be particularly so in Apalachee, where the projectiles were said to have penetrated horses lengthwise nearly from chest to tail, and desoto watched one captured archer place an arrow through two coats of Milan chain steel from eighty feet back. The best defense, the Spaniards eventually learned, was to wear quilted fabric three or four fingers thick under their chain mail." And the original source is (if I'm reading the endnotes right) found here: https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/2771078 @Glock63 Quick net search turned up the book in spanish: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Florida_del_Inca And some quotes from it: Training: “Also, from their earliest years, they have no other exercise. When the infants begin to walk, they study to imitate their fathers; they handle arrows and ask for bows, which, if they refuse them, they make them themselves of small sticks, and declare war against the mice of the dwellings ; but not meeting with anything upon which they can fire, they hunt the flies, and out of the house they hunt the lizards, and when these animals are in their holes they will wait for them five or six hours until they come out of them. Thus, by a continual exercise, they shoot with surprising skill.” Speed: “But, although the trees of this last forest, where the Indians and Spaniards fought, were not so close as those of the first, the horses, for all that, could not run but in certain places; and this made the enemy bolder. That, also, which increased their courage, was the almost incredible rapidity with which they discharged their arrows. One Indian had shot six or seven times before a Spaniard had fired and reloaded. The Indians, in fact, are so adroit in handling the bow, that no sooner have they fired than they are ready to recommence.” The power of the arrow: Arrow against 2 layer of mail armor: “But since it has become proper to speak of the extraordinary' shots of the Indians, I shall relate an instance of them. Moscoso, in one of the first skirmishes with the Apalaches, received, in his right side, the shot of an arrow, which pierced his buff and his coat of mail without killing him, because the shot went aslant. The Spanish officers, astonished that a coat of mail of the value of a hundred and fifty ducats should be pierced by a single shot, wished to prove theirs, in order to know if they could depend upon them. As they were then in the town of Apalache, those who wore coats of mail took a cane basket, strongly woven, and adjusted around it one of the finest coats of mail. They then unbound one of the Indian prisoners, gave him a bow and arrow, and commanded him to fire, at the distance of fifty paces, upon this coat of mail. At the same time, the barbarian, having closed his fist, stretched himself, extended and bent his arm to awaken his strength, shot through the coat of mail and basket with so much force that the shot would still easily have pierced a man. Our people, who saw that a coat of mail could not resist an arrow, adjusted two of them to the basket. They gave an arrow to an Indian whom they ordered to shoot, and he pierced both of them.” “The Spaniards would not grant his request, and afterward they held their coats of mail of no account, which they, in mockery, called Holland cloth. Therefore they made, of thick cloth, doublets four fingers thick, which covered the chest and the croup of the horses, and resisted an arrow better than anything else.” - Arrow penetrate mail armor and lance shaft: “In the melee, as Soto raised himself in his stirrups to pierce an Indian, he was shot behind. The arrow broke his coat of mail and entered quite deep into his buttock. Nevertheless, for fear that the wound might abate the courage of his men, and elevate that of the barbarians, he concealed the wound that he had received and did not extract the arrow, so that he could not sit down. But he did not cease to fight valiantly until the end of the combat, which lasted five hours. Certainly this action alone marks sufficiently his courage and his horsemanship. Tovar, also, had an arrow-shot which pierced through his lance above the handle. But because the wood was good, the arrow made only its hole, so that the cavalier made use of his lance as usual, after the arrow was cut. This shot is of little importance; however, I related it because the like of it seldom happens.” - Arrow penetrate mail, thigh, saddle and horse: “As this cavalier was crossing a stream where the troops were attacked, an Indian, concealed behind a bush, discharged at him an arrow so violently that after leaving broken his coat of mail, it pierced his right thigh, passed through the saddle-bow, and entered into the body of the horse, which, quite furious, rushed out of the stream, bounded over the plain, and tried, by kicking. to disengage the arrow, and throw his rider. The Spaniards who were then engaged near this soldier ran to his assistance, when they perceived that the arrow had pinned him to the saddle, and as the troops were camped quite near the stream, they led him to the quarters. Immediately they adroitly raised him, and cut the arrow between the saddle and his thigh. They also unsaddled the horse, and the Spaniards were surprised that a cane arrow, armed only with a cane point, had penetrated so far.” - Arrow against horse: “The Indian stood firm at first, but afterwards took to his heels. The Spaniard pressed him; but the barbarian seeing himself about to be pierced, resisted, and at the moment that the cavalier gave him a thrust with his lance which brought him to the ground and killed him, he shot an arrow which pierced and prostrated the horse of Silvestre, so that the barbarian, the horse, and the rider fell one upon the other. The Spaniards, surprised that a single shot of an arrow fired so close had slain a horse so vigorous, had the curiosity to see, in the morning, the effect of this shot. They found that the arrow had entered the breast, and, after having pierced the heart, had stopped in the intestines; with so much force did the Indians shoot.” Skill: 1 man against 7 Spanish cavalry: “Aniasco mounted on horseback. one day, and, having ridden with six of his companions through the streets of Apalache, they all took a fancy to make a tour of the town on the outside. As they had no intention of going very far away, because the barbarians placed themselves in ambush behind the bushes and the country was not safe, they left without other arms than their swords, except Pegado, who carried a lance. Whilst they were riding at a slow pace, and pleasantly conversing on different subjects, they perceived an Indian and his wife, who were collecting beans, in a field near a wood. They immediately spurred straight towards them, and the woman, wholly beside herself, not being able to escape, the Indian took her, carried her into the forest, thrust her against the first thicket, and forcibly pushed her into it. Then, instead of saving himself with her, he boldly returned to where he had left his bow, and advanced against the cavaliers with as much resolution as if he had but one to contend with. The Spaniards, surprised at this action, and believing that it would be a shame for seven men to slay one, wished only to capture him. They charged so suddenly upon him that he had not time to shoot. They overthrew him and held him to the earth, crying out to him " quarter " and that he should surrender. But the more they pressed him the more he showed courage, for quite struck down as he was, he wounded them all in the legs, and stuck with arrows, the bellies of their horses; finally, he escaped once from under their feet, arose, took his bow with both hands and gave with it, so violent a blow upon the forehead of Pegado, that the blood flowed down his visage, and he was quite stunned by it. This cavalier, enraged at seeing himself thus treated, urged his horse upon the barbarian, gave him some thrusts with his lance, struck him in the breast, and laid him dead at his feet. The Spaniards at the same time examined their-horses, and found that they all were slightly wounded. They retraced their route to Apalache, ashamed that a single man had given them so much trouble.” - Shooting from a tree: “One day a party of fifty foot-soldiers and twenty cavaliers left the camp to search for corn at a league from there, where, on their arrival, they collected as much as they had need of. They then placed themselves in ambush to capture some barbarians, and posted a sentinel on an elevated place. He almost immediately gave notice that an Indian appeared, who glanced from one side to the other as if he had an intention to discover something. Upon this notice, Diego de Soto, one of the brave cavaliers of the army, spurred to capture the barbarian, who, at first, attempted to escape. However, happening to consider that the horse would intercept him, he gained a tree, the ordinary refuge of the Indian. He prepared his bow and awaited with firmness until his enemy was within reach of his arrow. As Soto had seen that he could not advance as far as under the tree, he passed close by and gave a thrust with his lance at the Indian, who had no sooner parried it than he fired and pierced the horse of the Spaniard with so much force, that afterwards he staggered about twenty steps and fell dead. In the meantime, arrived Velasques, who followed at a canter to succor Soto, and when he saw his companion's horse slain, he urged his own, advanced directly at the barbarian, and thrust at him his lance. The Indian, after having parried it also, fired and slew the horse of Velasques. These two Spaniards immediately charged, with their lances, upon the barbarian, who, in retreating to the wood, turned his head, and said to them with disdainful pride, that if they had to fight on foot, they would see with whom would remain victory. He thus escaped from the cavaliers with his reputation, and left them in despair at being unfortunately dismounted. The party then retraced their route to the camp, sorry at what had happened to their comrades.” Sourced from here: https://www.quora.com/Which-Native-Americans-were-the-best-archers?share=1 Fascinating stuff. When you're not constantly distracted and you have to struggle just to eat, and the bow feeds you and protects you, and it's your culture. Well, we have gun culture. They had, before european contact, bow culture, and because of the lack of metalworking, it had to have been quite deep culture. |
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Quoted: Quoted: So you're saying they didn't report it eh? You did read that bit, right? "The history of florida" Edited by Michael Gannon. Chapter 2, page 31, chapter "First European Contacts" The book's publisher here: https://upf.com/book.asp?id=9780813064017 Find it cheap here: https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?full=on&ac=sl&st=sl&qi=y96p5bKpIqE124i18SF6Tk3WnxY_1653256939_1:2:1 Hernando desoto's mission of exploration: "The Spaniards marveled at the velocity and accuracy of the arrows discharged against them by the native's tall stiff bows. This would be particularly so in Apalachee, where the projectiles were said to have penetrated horses lengthwise nearly from chest to tail, and desoto watched one captured archer place an arrow through two coats of Milan chain steel from eighty feet back. The best defense, the Spaniards eventually learned, was to wear quilted fabric three or four fingers thick under their chain mail." And the original source is (if I'm reading the endnotes right) found here: https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/2771078 @Glock63 "In like Flint" LOL |
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Not enough information.
Let's say it is in CA. Moderately wooded and gentle climate. Samurai wins. AZ in summer. Indian wins. |
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Quoted: What happens to the Rez that suckles the US’s teet when the teet runs dry to a culture that cannot sustain itself and has not for 1.5 centuries? View Quote They let boys in the girls bathroom? Covid lockdowns? Oh wait that's not what your asking lol The socialist bullshit that's happening now is exactly how the government forced the natives unto the rez. Take away the people's ability to fend for themselves, outlaw their culture, and remove them from their natural environment. There's more parallels to today than most would like to believe so go ahead pay your taxes, register your weapons, don't be white, and remember to vote because it's the land of the brave and home of the free. LOL |
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Man for man in the desert I would put my money on Jeronimo and his bunch. They would never fight out of their AO and all that armor on a samurai would not last long in AZ heat. ATTRITION WOULD BE HELL
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That would be like Delta and Rangers with air support vs Somalis with AKs
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Final Fight of Red Sun (1971) Alain Delon, Charles Bronson, Toshiro Mifune, Ursulla Andress |
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The native Americans were only defeated because their buffalo food supply was exterminated.
Cut a Samurai off from sushi and see how long he lasts. |
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Individual hand to hand, Samurai.
Stalk & kill? American Indian. |
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I heard the native americans took on the predator so my vote for native americans.
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Maybe a better comparison would be the American Indian against the African Bush people? Two stone age civilizations?
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Comanches win. Nothing could stop a Comanche attack until Samual Colt.
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The Comanche would've decimated the Samurai, as the Comanche were top masters at cavalry combat. Any other Native American tribe, though... Samurai would win.
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Quoted: Samurai were professional soldiers that started training as soon as they could walk. Most Indian tribes would rather be left alone. Some were a lot better at war than others, but not professional soldiers. View Quote In the southwest there was a deep vein of blood sacrifice and cannibalism for a bit that purportedly filtered up from mexico. Not a popular admission for most of the gentle, nature loving indians. |
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Quoted: Specifically.... how? View Quote Look up the tribes that routed the US Army at Wabash and Little Bighorn. Most or all of the tribes at Wabash were not known to be warlike, while the Sioux and Cheyenne at Little Bighorn were feared as fighters. Seems to me even the farmers and herders could fight too. |
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Quoted: The mythical status (or outright fetishizing) of samurai battle prowess (or Japan in general) is probably the reason this thread is the way it is. The US, technically the most well-armed and well-trained military regulars in the world, struggled for years to defeat the American Indians. They were routed at places like Wabash and Little Bighorn. That includes the equipment advantages the US had. Well before that, the US, France, and Britain certainly struggled to defeat them in early colonial days. And as has been mentioned, the Indians held off the Mexicans and the Spanish in the American southwest for hundreds of years. They were very effective warriors no matter how you want to look at it. Besides, look at Afghanistan. Third-world peasants and goat herders with patchwork armaments, IEDs, dirty nightshirts and flip-flops held off the most powerful and well-funded army in the world for twenty years until they left in defeat. Who had that one on their bingo card? View Quote I think you're "fetishizing" American Indians. You're also painting them all as a homogenous group, when some tribes were as foreign to one another as Irish are to Italians. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A long-boat full of Vikings or Some monks with gold crosses The city of Copenhagen or some British bois in boats. This thread is no longer fun. People who recognize the objective masterpiece that is Pacific Rim or People who don't like it and are objectively wrong. |
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Quoted: The Comanche stopped Spanish expansion cold and rolled their settlements back about a thousand miles into Mexico, and the Spanish had a lot better gear than the Samurai did. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: lol Samurai against illiterate stone-age savages? The Comanche stopped Spanish expansion cold and rolled their settlements back about a thousand miles into Mexico, and the Spanish had a lot better gear than the Samurai did. This...those down talking the Comanche have zero idea just how capable of warriors they were....and they started as small children too. |
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Quoted: The Comanche stopped Spanish expansion cold and rolled their settlements back about a thousand miles into Mexico, and the Spanish had a lot better gear than the Samurai did. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: lol Samurai against illiterate stone-age savages? The Comanche stopped Spanish expansion cold and rolled their settlements back about a thousand miles into Mexico, and the Spanish had a lot better gear than the Samurai did. I didn’t know that. Very interesting. |
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Quoted: Samurai had steel weapons. Excellent lamellar armor, and later plate armor. Battle formations. Communications via flag signals. American Indians were basically skirmishers? What armor did they have? What battle formations? What communications? View Quote The reason half of the United States wasn’t taken over by Spain is because of the Comanche Indian. The Spaniards had plate armor and guns, along with horses, and they lost bigly. My money would be on the Comanche. Swords don’t work when your enemy is riding in circles 30 yards away from you, shooting arrows at you from under their horse’s neck. |
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Quoted: You do realize the samurai were accomplished horsemen, trained in calvary tactics and mounted archery? Right? Just cause the Comanche rode horses doesn’t give them an advantage against other calvary. They did have an advantage against other weak Stone Age peoples and dumb bison though. View Quote You really need to read up on the Comanche and what they did to the Spanish, other Indians, and the Americans for almost 150 years. Try reading or listening to Empire of the Summer Moon. Not only would the Comanche kill you on the plains, they would steal all your horses and leave you without transportation in a waterless desert. |
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Wow, GD is once again so wrong. So basically a little midget army would sweep the floor in mortal combat with Native Americans? You guys do realize average height of Japanese man in WW2 was what, 5'2"? Native American would have longer arm reach, had more strength and longer legs. Natives clearly win.
Samurai lose home or away. Samurai may be fierce when fighting other little people, but height, weight and strength play a role in this. Do you guys really think their little arms could shoot an arrow better then Native Americans? There was a book on GD that was talking about Comanche and how the Mexicans invited white settlers to Texas in an attempt to create a human barrier between the Comanche and Mexico. We didn't stand a chance until we got repeating arms in Texas. A better question would be, who would win, Samurais or Native Women? |
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Quoted: Patriotic, but wrong. Samurai - tactics, training, discipline, ethos. Natives - courage, balls. But no formal tactics or training, and no unit cohesion/discipline. View Quote No unit cohesion or discipline? There was one instance near the end of the Comanche freedom where thousands of Comanches formed up in a wedge shaped mass, and charged toward the Americans, it then changed into 5 rings of circular horses running at full tilt. All of a sudden, all horses stopped on a dime, and turned to the Americans. No commands were given, no bugles, but it was all done by seasoned Indians and their horses. Comanche men started training at about 5 years old. Their tactics and training may have never been written down, but they had it just the same. If the Samurai faced the Comanche on foot? Whole sale slaughter and the Samurai would be drinking sake and telling stories about it. Samurai vs Comanche on the open plain? There wouldn’t be any Samurai left to talk. |
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Quoted: I think you're "fetishizing" American Indians. You're also painting them all as a homogenous group, when some tribes were as foreign to one another as Irish are to Italians. View Quote Of course they're different. That much is obvious as they fought each other just as much as outsiders over the years. This isn't any different from Europeans and other Caucasians, or Africans, or South Americans, as humanity always finds a way to fight each other. In my previous post I pointed out that the tribes involved in Wabash and Little Bighorn were different and had different reputations. I am aware that they are all different, with different histories and characteristics. |
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Deadliest Warrior (Samurai)
Battle Status: Won vs. the Viking; Lost vs. the Spartan Comanche beat the Mongol. |
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Quoted: you were on reasonably solid ground for a while, then you took a hard left. View Quote How so? The Mongol Invasion of the late 1200s was quite literally the last time Japan was invaded prior to WWII. For 300 years after (the shogun period), the samurai did little (all domestic), and for the 300 years after that (Edo Japan) they did next to nothing. I'm simply arguing that the military and combat prowess of the Japanese samurai appears to have most of its basis in legend, not history. |
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ask DeSoto about Mobila.
20-30 Conquistadors killed. wounded had over 700 arrow wounds. |
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Quoted: The reason half of the United States wasn’t taken over by Spain is because of the Comanche Indian. The Spaniards had plate armor and guns, along with horses, and they lost bigly. My money would be on the Comanche. Swords don’t work when your enemy is riding in circles 30 yards away from you, shooting arrows at you from under their horse’s neck. View Quote Just put arrows into the horses. |
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I don't know the answer to the OP, but this just feels right for the thread.
Iron Maiden - Run To The Hills (Official Video) |
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