[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig M18 might have just killed an Airman (Page 13 of 28)
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Quoted: It took all of 30 seconds for me to do a Google Image search and find photos of multiple MPs standing around with weapons holstered on their duty belts pointed at their hips and thighs. You know... points of impact above the knee. Some of that could be mitigated by having stiffer belts or by wearing the belts tighter, but it's still going to happen, so the problem still applies. There's no escaping it completely, regardless of training standard. You seem well informed about the investigative and administrative channels. I'm not going to disagree with you on any of that. But I'd hope the USAF looks at what's been reported by the USMC, the FBI, and DHS. That's data, too. And I'm not sure how they'll make the risk analysis decisions, but doing nothing just because this is the first time someone in their uniform died in 5 years of use ain't it. Please reread, as I pointed out plenty of probable corrective actions. Nowhere did I imply or state the Air Force would be "doing nothing". |
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Quoted: Please reread, as I pointed out plenty of probable corrective actions. Nowhere did I imply or state the Air Force would be "doing nothing". Quoted: Quoted: It took all of 30 seconds for me to do a Google Image search and find photos of multiple MPs standing around with weapons holstered on their duty belts pointed at their hips and thighs. You know... points of impact above the knee. Some of that could be mitigated by having stiffer belts or by wearing the belts tighter, but it's still going to happen, so the problem still applies. There's no escaping it completely, regardless of training standard. You seem well informed about the investigative and administrative channels. I'm not going to disagree with you on any of that. But I'd hope the USAF looks at what's been reported by the USMC, the FBI, and DHS. That's data, too. And I'm not sure how they'll make the risk analysis decisions, but doing nothing just because this is the first time someone in their uniform died in 5 years of use ain't it. Please reread, as I pointed out plenty of probable corrective actions. Nowhere did I imply or state the Air Force would be "doing nothing". Assessments, inspections, and changes in handling procedures are, in this case, effectively doing nothing. At this point, it's been pretty well established that the P320 family has serious design issues. The only viable solutions to those issues are to replace the P320, to perform significant engineering changes to the P320, or to do something comical like issue kevlar holsters. |
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Quoted: They are defending the Sig 320. It’s all they got. Quoted: Quoted: I can't believe folks are attempting to rationalize away and argue about whether the Airman tossed the pistol and holster on a desk or the like. Again, someone could do that ALL DAY LONG with a loaded 92FS on safe and it would be a complete non-issue. Goodness, I think some may need to step back and look at this maybe from some additional distance, and imagine (or remember) what it was like back when .mil had the Beretta, in comparison and application to the ideas being tossed about here. It's literally much arguing about the eggshells being walked upon. There should be no eggshells involved with duty pistols. They are defending the Sig 320. It’s all they got. I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. |
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Quoted: I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can't believe folks are attempting to rationalize away and argue about whether the Airman tossed the pistol and holster on a desk or the like. Again, someone could do that ALL DAY LONG with a loaded 92FS on safe and it would be a complete non-issue. Goodness, I think some may need to step back and look at this maybe from some additional distance, and imagine (or remember) what it was like back when .mil had the Beretta, in comparison and application to the ideas being tossed about here. It's literally much arguing about the eggshells being walked upon. There should be no eggshells involved with duty pistols. They are defending the Sig 320. It's all they got. I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. |
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Quoted: The manual safety has nothing to do with the 320 issues. Edit: P226 was always my “dream” gun but I couldn’t afford it in my 20s and now I’ve held off in my 30s due to all these Sig issues. I just have no desire to give them money. I already have a WW1 Colt 1911 .45acp so no real interest in another 1911 either. Maybe I’ll just grab a CZ 75 when I finally decide to splurge on a hammer fire full size. Quoted: Quoted: M18 has a safety? AF is carrying safety off, like they did with the M9? The lack of reporting on rampant M17/18 issues is the last thing that kept me skeptical. The manual safety has nothing to do with the 320 issues. Edit: P226 was always my “dream” gun but I couldn’t afford it in my 20s and now I’ve held off in my 30s due to all these Sig issues. I just have no desire to give them money. I already have a WW1 Colt 1911 .45acp so no real interest in another 1911 either. Maybe I’ll just grab a CZ 75 when I finally decide to splurge on a hammer fire full size. Don't let Sig's latest f**kup get in your way. Pick up a PD trade-in P226. Sig won't make a cent off of it. I love to carry my P226. Attached File |
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Quoted: No, saying a holstered firearm is presumed safe is the way it's been for 150 years, your attempts to alter reality notwithstanding. The gun should not go off by itself, yes we know that. We also know that a firearm with a round in the chamber and safety off should not be pointed at anyone, regardless of if it's in a holster or not. Maybe lower the narcissism a bit and actually think about what you are arguing. |
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Quoted: I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. One would have to ignore decades of service pistols (both LE and Military) not discharging while holstered to even begin to think there is a high probability of user error. |
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Quoted: I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can't believe folks are attempting to rationalize away and argue about whether the Airman tossed the pistol and holster on a desk or the like. Again, someone could do that ALL DAY LONG with a loaded 92FS on safe and it would be a complete non-issue. Goodness, I think some may need to step back and look at this maybe from some additional distance, and imagine (or remember) what it was like back when .mil had the Beretta, in comparison and application to the ideas being tossed about here. It's literally much arguing about the eggshells being walked upon. There should be no eggshells involved with duty pistols. They are defending the Sig 320. It’s all they got. I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. I used to see it that way, too. It wasn't a stretch to explain the P320's incident rate by looking at the fact that, by design, the P320 has the smallest margin for user error of basically any duty gun issued ever. No safety, no dingus, wide trigger shoe, light trigger pull, fully cocked striker, etc. By that logic, of course there would be more incidents than Glock or S&W or whoever. But then we got the Montville PD footage and we saw a holstered P320 discharging on video. And then it kept happening. And then, when you dig into the design under the hood, there are really bad design choices, bad safety parameters, and questionable build tolerances. Every example of the P320 is its own probability problem. Some are built in such a way that they won't actually fail, whereas others can, but only with overlapping system failures. And nobody knows what those numbers are. |
| I swear, if Sig comes out and says something like “We say in the manual to have the gun without a round in the chamber. Our gun is totally safe! And the only reason this happened is because Safariland makes bad holsters!”…… not sure what I would do but damn it would be even more infuriating than it already is!!!!???? |
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Quoted: I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can't believe folks are attempting to rationalize away and argue about whether the Airman tossed the pistol and holster on a desk or the like. Again, someone could do that ALL DAY LONG with a loaded 92FS on safe and it would be a complete non-issue. Goodness, I think some may need to step back and look at this maybe from some additional distance, and imagine (or remember) what it was like back when .mil had the Beretta, in comparison and application to the ideas being tossed about here. It's literally much arguing about the eggshells being walked upon. There should be no eggshells involved with duty pistols. They are defending the Sig 320. It’s all they got. I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. Then you're not paying attention. |
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Quoted: Clarify please: So the issue with the 320 isnt the lack of internal safeties (Striker block/firing pin safety) but the quality control of the internal safeties correct? The other potential safety concerns is the lack of a trigger blade safety and that the striker is fully cocked unlike the Glock? So if an internal safety fails it will go bang where a Glock wont because the striker is only under partial compression and wont generate enough force to ignite the primer? Sig has designed and built a pistol mechanism so unsafe that no single cause can be identified, nor a stacking cause. It’s one or both, or neither depending on the individual gun. So it does reason that manufacturing quality control variances, even small, can cause failure. But overall, the design cant tolerate manufacturing variances. |
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Quoted: A loaded firearm with safety off is not and should not be considered safe regardless of if it's in a holster. The gun should not go off by itself, yes we know that. We also know that a firearm with a round in the chamber and safety off should not be pointed at anyone, regardless of if it's in a holster or not. Maybe lower the narcissism a bit and actually think about what you are arguing. Quoted: Quoted: No, saying a holstered firearm is presumed safe is the way it's been for 150 years, your attempts to alter reality notwithstanding. The gun should not go off by itself, yes we know that. We also know that a firearm with a round in the chamber and safety off should not be pointed at anyone, regardless of if it's in a holster or not. Maybe lower the narcissism a bit and actually think about what you are arguing. Seems a bit excessive to me. |
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Quoted: Post in the reddit link indicates gun was in a Safariland holster with QLS fork. Holster removed with gun intact and placed on surface where it discharged in holster. Airman struck in chest. I dont care what kind of gun I have or condition its carried, I dont set them down and have them pointed at anyone ever. |
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Quoted: The only ND we had at the last range job was a cased rifle. A servicemember who was going shooting with us had just returned from the GWOT and had been there when the "no chambered round" doctrine for some units was "lets have the mag in, bolt back and locked". He cased a rifle this way. And thankfully it was a "direction is evident" shaped case. While we were driving this pile of cased guns to the firing line the bolt closed in the shut case. That case was pointed at an ammo can full of stuff, and it was intentional that that thing be the place muzzles go. It was a 40mm ammo can and full of equipment. Upon pulling said rifle out of the back of the vehicle, an empty shell casing inside the soft case depressed the trigger and the now chambered rifle went off in the back of the vehicle. Because I knew where the muzzle must be in this case for a rifle, I decided to not pull it out by the muzzle end. I'm alive today for that reason. The 40mm ammo can and the shit in it did catch the round. Lost about $200 in offroad stuff. I now tape cases on the end the muzzle will be in if they are meant to take a whole rifle and don't have a dedicated muzzle direction due to case build. Checking a cased rifle that you personally observed be unloaded from one vehicle and loaded into another without any handling of the gun inside, brought by an experienced and known shooter...didn't seem to be a thing at the time. Now it is. So he put a loaded mag into the gun and put it in the case? Crazy. |
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Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. Quoted: Quoted: A loaded firearm with safety off is not and should not be considered safe regardless of if it's in a holster. Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. Any gun, rifle or pistol, with a round in chamber and safety off shall not fire unless the trigger is pulled. Period. If it does it shouldnt be released to the public! |
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Quoted: I dont care what kind of gun I have or condition its carried, I dont set them down and have them pointed at anyone ever. Quoted: Quoted: Post in the reddit link indicates gun was in a Safariland holster with QLS fork. Holster removed with gun intact and placed on surface where it discharged in holster. Airman struck in chest. I dont care what kind of gun I have or condition its carried, I dont set them down and have them pointed at anyone ever. Say you set it down on the desk with the muzzle pointing left because there's no one standing that way. Then, in ten minutes, a coworker walks over to the left in front of the muzzle. Do you go back and turn it right? |
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Quoted: So he put a loaded mag into the gun and put it in the case? Crazy. Quoted: Quoted: The only ND we had at the last range job was a cased rifle. A servicemember who was going shooting with us had just returned from the GWOT and had been there when the "no chambered round" doctrine for some units was "lets have the mag in, bolt back and locked". He cased a rifle this way. And thankfully it was a "direction is evident" shaped case. While we were driving this pile of cased guns to the firing line the bolt closed in the shut case. That case was pointed at an ammo can full of stuff, and it was intentional that that thing be the place muzzles go. It was a 40mm ammo can and full of equipment. Upon pulling said rifle out of the back of the vehicle, an empty shell casing inside the soft case depressed the trigger and the now chambered rifle went off in the back of the vehicle. Because I knew where the muzzle must be in this case for a rifle, I decided to not pull it out by the muzzle end. I'm alive today for that reason. The 40mm ammo can and the shit in it did catch the round. Lost about $200 in offroad stuff. I now tape cases on the end the muzzle will be in if they are meant to take a whole rifle and don't have a dedicated muzzle direction due to case build. Checking a cased rifle that you personally observed be unloaded from one vehicle and loaded into another without any handling of the gun inside, brought by an experienced and known shooter...didn't seem to be a thing at the time. Now it is. So he put a loaded mag into the gun and put it in the case? Crazy. loaded mag in, bolt locked back in an AR platform is retarded. That's essentially just loaded, because the slightest bounce in the rearward direction and the bolt will go forward. I have never heard that being any kind of doctrine anywhere. |
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Quoted: So he put a loaded mag into the gun and put it in the case? Crazy. Quoted: Quoted: The only ND we had at the last range job was a cased rifle. A servicemember who was going shooting with us had just returned from the GWOT and had been there when the "no chambered round" doctrine for some units was "lets have the mag in, bolt back and locked". He cased a rifle this way. And thankfully it was a "direction is evident" shaped case. While we were driving this pile of cased guns to the firing line the bolt closed in the shut case. That case was pointed at an ammo can full of stuff, and it was intentional that that thing be the place muzzles go. It was a 40mm ammo can and full of equipment. Upon pulling said rifle out of the back of the vehicle, an empty shell casing inside the soft case depressed the trigger and the now chambered rifle went off in the back of the vehicle. Because I knew where the muzzle must be in this case for a rifle, I decided to not pull it out by the muzzle end. I'm alive today for that reason. The 40mm ammo can and the shit in it did catch the round. Lost about $200 in offroad stuff. I now tape cases on the end the muzzle will be in if they are meant to take a whole rifle and don't have a dedicated muzzle direction due to case build. Checking a cased rifle that you personally observed be unloaded from one vehicle and loaded into another without any handling of the gun inside, brought by an experienced and known shooter...didn't seem to be a thing at the time. Now it is. So he put a loaded mag into the gun and put it in the case? Crazy. He bought me a new ammo can and offroading shit, and acknowledged the fault. All I could ask for, once the "don't let that happen at all" ship had sailed. |
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Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. Quoted: Quoted: A loaded firearm with safety off is not and should not be considered safe regardless of if it's in a holster. Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. Finally! 
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Quoted: One would have to ignore decades of service pistols (both LE and Military) not discharging while holstered to even begin to think there is a high probability of user error. Service pistols (especially striker fired guns) discharging while holstered due to user error has been a known risk for decades now. I know of a few non-Sig examples with public videos, and can point to several more that resulted in lawsuits. The difference is that it seems like P320s are firing while holstered too often for user error to explain everything, and that a partial mechanical failure that could lead to P320s firing without a trigger pull has been demonstrated. |
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Anyone else mention the rumor that the USMC is gearing up to order M9A1’s and dump Sig? Originally posted by Mod0 on Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/DMdPyDVgzGr/?img_index=1&igsh=Ym56bW9pemNvZ29u |
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Quoted: One would have to ignore decades of service pistols (both LE and Military) not discharging while holstered to even begin to think there is a high probability of user error. How do we know there was not an obstruction or holster/user induced factor? Are there witnesses? Closed circuit video? We probably are not told that yet. |
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Quoted: I used to see it that way, too. It wasn't a stretch to explain the P320's incident rate by looking at the fact that, by design, the P320 has the smallest margin for user error of basically any duty gun issued ever. No safety, no dingus, wide trigger shoe, light trigger pull, fully cocked striker, etc. By that logic, of course there would be more incidents than Glock or S&W or whoever. But then we got the Montville PD footage and we saw a holstered P320 discharging on video. And then it kept happening. And then, when you dig into the design under the hood, there are really bad design choices, bad safety parameters, and questionable build tolerances. Every example of the P320 is its own probability problem. Some are built in such a way that they won't actually fail, whereas others can, but only with overlapping system failures. And nobody knows what those numbers are. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can't believe folks are attempting to rationalize away and argue about whether the Airman tossed the pistol and holster on a desk or the like. Again, someone could do that ALL DAY LONG with a loaded 92FS on safe and it would be a complete non-issue. Goodness, I think some may need to step back and look at this maybe from some additional distance, and imagine (or remember) what it was like back when .mil had the Beretta, in comparison and application to the ideas being tossed about here. It's literally much arguing about the eggshells being walked upon. There should be no eggshells involved with duty pistols. They are defending the Sig 320. It’s all they got. I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. I used to see it that way, too. It wasn't a stretch to explain the P320's incident rate by looking at the fact that, by design, the P320 has the smallest margin for user error of basically any duty gun issued ever. No safety, no dingus, wide trigger shoe, light trigger pull, fully cocked striker, etc. By that logic, of course there would be more incidents than Glock or S&W or whoever. But then we got the Montville PD footage and we saw a holstered P320 discharging on video. And then it kept happening. And then, when you dig into the design under the hood, there are really bad design choices, bad safety parameters, and questionable build tolerances. Every example of the P320 is its own probability problem. Some are built in such a way that they won't actually fail, whereas others can, but only with overlapping system failures. And nobody knows what those numbers are. Fair enough. |
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Quoted: Sig has designed and built a pistol mechanism so unsafe that no single cause can be identified, nor a stacking cause. It’s one or both, or neither depending on the individual gun. So it does reason that manufacturing quality control variances, even small, can cause failure. But overall, the design cant tolerate manufacturing variances. Quoted: Quoted: Clarify please: So the issue with the 320 isnt the lack of internal safeties (Striker block/firing pin safety) but the quality control of the internal safeties correct? The other potential safety concerns is the lack of a trigger blade safety and that the striker is fully cocked unlike the Glock? So if an internal safety fails it will go bang where a Glock wont because the striker is only under partial compression and wont generate enough force to ignite the primer? Sig has designed and built a pistol mechanism so unsafe that no single cause can be identified, nor a stacking cause. It’s one or both, or neither depending on the individual gun. So it does reason that manufacturing quality control variances, even small, can cause failure. But overall, the design cant tolerate manufacturing variances. With at least two different fire control group designs in the wild. A heavy version that is not drop safe and a lightened version that is drop safe. Are the parts compatible between the two versions? Have there been other unannounced changes, updates, or revisions? Are parts compatible between the .mil and .civ guns? Etc A design that "can't tolerate manufacturing variances," MIM, and "made in India" are about the worst combination possible. Kharn |
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Quoted: How do we know there was not an obstruction or holster/user induced factor? Are there witnesses? Closed circuit video? We probably are not told that yet. Quoted: Quoted: One would have to ignore decades of service pistols (both LE and Military) not discharging while holstered to even begin to think there is a high probability of user error. How do we know there was not an obstruction or holster/user induced factor? Are there witnesses? Closed circuit video? We probably are not told that yet. Technically, we don't have official reporting of anything other than an Airman died on duty. No name or details of the incident are given. We have a memo signed by a four star general pulling M18s from service. This memo was signed about 36 hours after the airman's death. Everything else is rumors and/or leaks. |
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Quoted: Wasn't there a video that demonstrated how if the takedown and reassembly procedures were not followed exactly the gun could discharge? The 320 has a unique procedure that is different from every other pistol. What's the unique procedure? The user manual shows a procedure that is no different than any other striker fired pistols. |
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Quoted: Wasn't there a video that demonstrated how if the takedown and reassembly procedures were not followed exactly the gun could discharge? The 320 has a unique procedure that is different from every other pistol. Yes and no. The theory was, if the gun had the wrong takedown lever installed, and a guy did an oddly specific series of actions, he could then induce a discharge by malfunction. I thought that conversation was mostly a bad distraction. The 320's takedown procedure isn't unique at all. It's very similar to if not the same as any other Sig, the M&P, the XD, and others. |
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Quoted: Wasn't there a video that demonstrated how if the takedown and reassembly procedures were not followed exactly the gun could discharge? The 320 has a unique procedure that is different from every other pistol. Sort of. If the P320's slide stop is not raised after reassembly, it's possible for the sear to have minimal engagement with the firing pin, creating a condition where the firing pin could slip past the sear if the pistol is jostled. The problem with that as an explanation for the P320's holstered discharges is that when the pistol is in that condition, it should be impossible to insert a magazine. If a 9mm/.40/.357 P320 is incorrectly built with a .45/10mm takedown safety bar then it's be possible to insert a magazine, but so far no one has found one in the wild with the wrong takedown safety bar. |
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If parts wear....specifically MIM Indian Made Parts wear....were an issue this could explain why the incident rate appears on the surface to be going up. Could just be counter-publicity, but it could also be a ticking-time-bomb type thing. That was what happened with the Remington X-mark pro trigger. A new one was infallible. Designed perfectly. But...give it a few months to wear in and its not infallable anymore. And it wasn't even a design flaw around tolerances - the hardness of the MIM part was insufficient and the wear track through the sear was enormous. |
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Quoted: I really liked my M17; it was my first pistol with a red dot. Went all in on mags too. Sad it is now a safe ornament. I really have tried to give Sig the benefit of the doubt, but Yep, same here... Best we can hope for is a legit response and fix by SIG. Even then who will fully trust the pistols enough, or anything else new coming out for that matter? 
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Quoted: SIG is done. Nah. SIG will settle with the family, Sig engineers will implement a fix, weapons will be upgraded with the fix, and the AF will continue using the pistol. Reminds me of when we were first issued the M9 when the M1911A1 was phased out. There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. |
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Quoted: Anyone else mention the rumor that the USMC is gearing up to order M9A1’s and dump Sig? Originally posted by Mod0 on Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/DMdPyDVgzGr/?img_index=1&igsh=Ym56bW9pemNvZ29u They would be better off with the M9A3 or A4, but the M9A1 has already been approved and accepted by them previously. Interesting, but we'll see if there is any truth to it. |
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Quoted: What? No. The femoral artery ends at the knee and becomes a lesser artery. The Air Force teaches Self-Aid and Buddy Care annually to at risk career fields, which emphasizes gunshot wound treatment through pressure, bandaging and tourniquet. Assuming someone was in the room, or the building for that matter, he almost certainly would have survived a gunshot wound anywhere from the knee down. Mechanical systems fail, and had the pistol been pointed in a safe direction, stored per squadron/AF directive or still on the Airman's hip, he wouldn't be dead, period. You need to pay attention to what Josh, jbntex and turtle are trying to tell you here. The investigation may find the weapon was 100% original and maintained to a high standard, but given my exposure to SP squadrons (to include being an SP augmentee as an Airman) I doubt it. They aren't just going to examine this weapon, they'll pull every pistol in the squadron and tear them down, then start on the rifles. They'll go through the CATM (weapons schoolhouse) records looking for currency and adherence to curriculum, especially regarding safety. The squadron probably has someone paying very close attention to their armorer(s) right now, they have to be under some incredible pressure...deserved or not. The squadrons safety culture is going to come under hard review. That means interviews with everyone involved in gun handling to discover if this kind of casual attitude towards loaded weapons was common. They'll look at manning levels, shift duration and supervision from his rater and direct supervisor all the way up through the squadron commander and first shirt. This isn't going to play out like a lot of people here think it will. The Air Force has 125,000 M18 in inventory right now. To the best of my knowledge this is the first accidental discharge in the AF, though feel free to correct me there. They've been temporarily taken out of service out of an abundance of caution, which is not only right and proper under the circumstance, it's almost an automatic CONUS peace-time reaction from the MAJCOM and commanding general for a fatality suspected to have been caused by equipment failure. The Air Force Safety Center, if this rises to that level, will work up a risk assessment based on the tried-and-true...risk = probability x severity. In this case the probability is going to be tiny, if I had to guess. The AF adopted the M18 five years ago, and they likely have hundreds of thousands of handling and carry hours on them at this point. The severity is extremely high if the weapon is mishandled, and I guarantee you that will be a major finding, holstered or not. The upshot, again if I was guessing, will be a mandatory inspection of every pistol across the service, with those exhibiting wear to the fire control mechanism removed from service for rework. Moreover, the accident will generate a raft of new maintenance, inspection and handling requirements. Some of this is speculation, but not much. I did a year as the additional duty ground safety officer (as a MSgt) for the largest maintenance squadron in the Air Force. My masters is a dual major in industrial process and safety. I've seen enough aviation and aviation maintenance-related accidents to know how this is going to go. The MAJCOM commander isn't watching YouTube videos trolling for clicks telling him how deadly the M18 is, that's not how the Air Force works. It's a data-driven branch, they don't make emotional knee-jerk decisions even where situations like this are involved. Quoted: Quoted: It's a dumb point to emphasize. If the airman didn't take the holster off his belt at all, there's still a good chance this same gun discharges and hits his femoral artery killing him anyway. The airman was complacent, and that's not good, but that's not the headline of this incident. What? No. The femoral artery ends at the knee and becomes a lesser artery. The Air Force teaches Self-Aid and Buddy Care annually to at risk career fields, which emphasizes gunshot wound treatment through pressure, bandaging and tourniquet. Assuming someone was in the room, or the building for that matter, he almost certainly would have survived a gunshot wound anywhere from the knee down. Mechanical systems fail, and had the pistol been pointed in a safe direction, stored per squadron/AF directive or still on the Airman's hip, he wouldn't be dead, period. You need to pay attention to what Josh, jbntex and turtle are trying to tell you here. The investigation may find the weapon was 100% original and maintained to a high standard, but given my exposure to SP squadrons (to include being an SP augmentee as an Airman) I doubt it. They aren't just going to examine this weapon, they'll pull every pistol in the squadron and tear them down, then start on the rifles. They'll go through the CATM (weapons schoolhouse) records looking for currency and adherence to curriculum, especially regarding safety. The squadron probably has someone paying very close attention to their armorer(s) right now, they have to be under some incredible pressure...deserved or not. The squadrons safety culture is going to come under hard review. That means interviews with everyone involved in gun handling to discover if this kind of casual attitude towards loaded weapons was common. They'll look at manning levels, shift duration and supervision from his rater and direct supervisor all the way up through the squadron commander and first shirt. This isn't going to play out like a lot of people here think it will. The Air Force has 125,000 M18 in inventory right now. To the best of my knowledge this is the first accidental discharge in the AF, though feel free to correct me there. They've been temporarily taken out of service out of an abundance of caution, which is not only right and proper under the circumstance, it's almost an automatic CONUS peace-time reaction from the MAJCOM and commanding general for a fatality suspected to have been caused by equipment failure. The Air Force Safety Center, if this rises to that level, will work up a risk assessment based on the tried-and-true...risk = probability x severity. In this case the probability is going to be tiny, if I had to guess. The AF adopted the M18 five years ago, and they likely have hundreds of thousands of handling and carry hours on them at this point. The severity is extremely high if the weapon is mishandled, and I guarantee you that will be a major finding, holstered or not. The upshot, again if I was guessing, will be a mandatory inspection of every pistol across the service, with those exhibiting wear to the fire control mechanism removed from service for rework. Moreover, the accident will generate a raft of new maintenance, inspection and handling requirements. Some of this is speculation, but not much. I did a year as the additional duty ground safety officer (as a MSgt) for the largest maintenance squadron in the Air Force. My masters is a dual major in industrial process and safety. I've seen enough aviation and aviation maintenance-related accidents to know how this is going to go. The MAJCOM commander isn't watching YouTube videos trolling for clicks telling him how deadly the M18 is, that's not how the Air Force works. It's a data-driven branch, they don't make emotional knee-jerk decisions even where situations like this are involved. Good points made here. This is the voice of experience and reason. |
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Quoted: I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. Didn’t the FBI report already handle the evidence though? I believe the quote was “not fit for service” or something to that effect? This seems more like a, finger in the ears, eyes closed, I’m not gonna listen kind of response. It doesn’t particularly matter to me either way, I carried a sig 20 years ago when I was active duty, and I skipped the 320s completely bc I didn’t like them off the rip. |
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Quoted: Nah. SIG will settle with the family, Sig engineers will implement a fix, weapons will be upgraded with the fix, and the AF will continue using the pistol. Reminds me of when we were first issued the M9 when the M1911A1 was phased out. There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. Quoted: Quoted: SIG is done. Nah. SIG will settle with the family, Sig engineers will implement a fix, weapons will be upgraded with the fix, and the AF will continue using the pistol. Reminds me of when we were first issued the M9 when the M1911A1 was phased out. There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. Oh yeah, the Jet Li maneuver. I enjoyed Lethal Weapon 4 as well. |
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Quoted: Wasn't there a video that demonstrated how if the takedown and reassembly procedures were not followed exactly the gun could discharge? The 320 has a unique procedure that is different from every other pistol. Say just for example that's true, the "do nothing" inspection of the incident weapon and others in the same armory would reveal the problem, and likely trigger an "immediate action TCTO" (time compliance technical order) that would take all the AF weapons out of service for inspection and remediation. That might in turn drive the DOD to order the same action across all the services. Again, this is all jumping out ahead of the OSI investigation, which is almost never a good idea. |
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Quoted: Technically, we don't have official reporting of anything other than an Airman died on duty. No name or details of the incident are given. We have a memo signed by a four star general pulling M18s from service. This memo was signed about 36 hours after the airman's death. Everything else is rumors and/or leaks. The military usually takes forever to do anything For it to be this sudden makes me think there was video of it |
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Quoted: Nah. SIG will settle with the family, Sig engineers will implement a fix, weapons will be upgraded with the fix, and the AF will continue using the pistol. Reminds me of when we were first issued the M9 when the M1911A1 was phased out. There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. Quoted: Quoted: SIG is done. Nah. SIG will settle with the family, Sig engineers will implement a fix, weapons will be upgraded with the fix, and the AF will continue using the pistol. Reminds me of when we were first issued the M9 when the M1911A1 was phased out. There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. Pretty sure thats just from cheesy action movies... |
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Quoted: I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. There have been other documented instances of uncommanded discharges with the M18 in the military, this is just the first death I believe. |
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Quoted: Good points made here. This is the voice of experience and reason. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's a dumb point to emphasize. If the airman didn't take the holster off his belt at all, there's still a good chance this same gun discharges and hits his femoral artery killing him anyway. The airman was complacent, and that's not good, but that's not the headline of this incident. What? No. The femoral artery ends at the knee and becomes a lesser artery. The Air Force teaches Self-Aid and Buddy Care annually to at risk career fields, which emphasizes gunshot wound treatment through pressure, bandaging and tourniquet. Assuming someone was in the room, or the building for that matter, he almost certainly would have survived a gunshot wound anywhere from the knee down. Mechanical systems fail, and had the pistol been pointed in a safe direction, stored per squadron/AF directive or still on the Airman's hip, he wouldn't be dead, period. You need to pay attention to what Josh, jbntex and turtle are trying to tell you here. The investigation may find the weapon was 100% original and maintained to a high standard, but given my exposure to SP squadrons (to include being an SP augmentee as an Airman) I doubt it. They aren't just going to examine this weapon, they'll pull every pistol in the squadron and tear them down, then start on the rifles. They'll go through the CATM (weapons schoolhouse) records looking for currency and adherence to curriculum, especially regarding safety. The squadron probably has someone paying very close attention to their armorer(s) right now, they have to be under some incredible pressure...deserved or not. The squadrons safety culture is going to come under hard review. That means interviews with everyone involved in gun handling to discover if this kind of casual attitude towards loaded weapons was common. They'll look at manning levels, shift duration and supervision from his rater and direct supervisor all the way up through the squadron commander and first shirt. This isn't going to play out like a lot of people here think it will. The Air Force has 125,000 M18 in inventory right now. To the best of my knowledge this is the first accidental discharge in the AF, though feel free to correct me there. They've been temporarily taken out of service out of an abundance of caution, which is not only right and proper under the circumstance, it's almost an automatic CONUS peace-time reaction from the MAJCOM and commanding general for a fatality suspected to have been caused by equipment failure. The Air Force Safety Center, if this rises to that level, will work up a risk assessment based on the tried-and-true...risk = probability x severity. In this case the probability is going to be tiny, if I had to guess. The AF adopted the M18 five years ago, and they likely have hundreds of thousands of handling and carry hours on them at this point. The severity is extremely high if the weapon is mishandled, and I guarantee you that will be a major finding, holstered or not. The upshot, again if I was guessing, will be a mandatory inspection of every pistol across the service, with those exhibiting wear to the fire control mechanism removed from service for rework. Moreover, the accident will generate a raft of new maintenance, inspection and handling requirements. Some of this is speculation, but not much. I did a year as the additional duty ground safety officer (as a MSgt) for the largest maintenance squadron in the Air Force. My masters is a dual major in industrial process and safety. I've seen enough aviation and aviation maintenance-related accidents to know how this is going to go. The MAJCOM commander isn't watching YouTube videos trolling for clicks telling him how deadly the M18 is, that's not how the Air Force works. It's a data-driven branch, they don't make emotional knee-jerk decisions even where situations like this are involved. Good points made here. This is the voice of experience and reason. Yeah, even if the USAF comes out with the decision that the 320 is 100% at fault and unsafe, it is still going to be a problem for the unit Wasnt AF, but was MP and Generally pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel I saw an entire shift get their asses handed to them because while working night shift on a long 96 and just took off their batman belts with pistol still in holster and put them in the armory thinking none of the hirer ups were going to be around |
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Quoted: There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. I don't know where you got your information, but it's pure, unadulterated bullshit. Check with Jet Li. |
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Quoted: There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. |
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Quoted: Yep, same here... Best we can hope for is a legit response and fix by SIG. Even then who will fully trust the pistols enough, or anything else new coming out for that matter? I'm not a Sig fan boy (I don't own a Sig firearm though I would like to have a P226), but I was really inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt until recently-- at this point I don't think I would trust new manufacture of even their older designs. It's going to take several years of spotless quality reports from the "hivemind" before I would buy one now. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig M18 might have just killed an Airman (Page 13 of 28)
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