[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig M18 might have just killed an Airman (Page 18 of 28)
|
Quoted: At this point in my life I have never bought a single SIG-made firearm and now that we are past the days of the 220/226 I don't understand you people who even know what they make anymore, much less actually buy them. I have an 80s West German P226 that I absolutely LOVE. It’s one of my favorite guns. Attached File (Not my pic, but I liked the Game Boy to go along with the 80s theme) Now, having said that…. For personal use, I wouldn’t buy a SIG handgun made in the past decade even if they were having a 50% off sale.  YMMV. |
|
Quoted: I don't know much about the Air Force, the command climate of that major command, or that specific four star General. But in the Army, I never saw or heard of a safety stand-down, including a removal from service, of a firearm. Someone would have an ND, that individual would get an Article 15, and everyone in the battalion or brigade would have to line up in front of their First Sergeant to demonstrate they know how to clear their weapons, and that was that. A four star in command of 30k+ personnel spanning 10 installations pulling a firearm from service is something I've never imagined. Global Strike Command was formed as a direct result of those fuck ups, to (hopefully) ensure better accountability. I've never worked for that particular MAJCOM, but this action is directly in line with their apparent mindset; pulling the pistols from use while the investigation removes one variable completely until they can figure out what caused the accident. |
|
Quoted: Surprisingly, they have not been quiet on Twitter. They are still in full Simp mode quite a few of them are trying to place the blame on the airmen for setting the holstered gun down facing towards him. You also have the usual, it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fine and these are all user error. |
|
Quoted: I don't know much about the Air Force, the command climate of that major command, or that specific four star General. But in the Army, I never saw or heard of a safety stand-down, including a removal from service, of a firearm. Someone would have an ND, that individual would get an Article 15, and everyone in the battalion or brigade would have to line up in front of their First Sergeant to demonstrate they know how to clear their weapons, and that was that. A four star in command of 30k+ personnel spanning 10 installations pulling a firearm from service is something I've never imagined. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It would not surprise me for it to be revealed that this incident was on camera, in front of multiple witnesses. The way they pulled the guns so fast make me think that's exactly what happened. That it's totally undebatable as to whether or not the guy did anything wrong. I don't know much about the Air Force, the command climate of that major command, or that specific four star General. But in the Army, I never saw or heard of a safety stand-down, including a removal from service, of a firearm. Someone would have an ND, that individual would get an Article 15, and everyone in the battalion or brigade would have to line up in front of their First Sergeant to demonstrate they know how to clear their weapons, and that was that. A four star in command of 30k+ personnel spanning 10 installations pulling a firearm from service is something I've never imagined. Aviation stand downs happen regularly. Somebody doing maintenance finds a crack where there shouldn't be one, and the entire fleet of that model aircraft is grounded until that particular part is checked on every aircraft in service. We don't usually have small arms deciding fuck that guy and firing uncommanded. |
|
Quoted: So having a questioning attitude is blaming him? It isn't natural and requires extra manipulation to remove a pistol from your hip, place it on a desk and have it end up pointed at yourself. How or why did he do it? Quoted: Quoted: Surprisingly, they have not been quiet on Twitter. They are still in full Simp mode quite a few of them are trying to place the blame on the airmen for setting the holstered gun down facing towards him. You also have the usual, it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fine and these are all user error. So having a questioning attitude is blaming him? It isn't natural and requires extra manipulation to remove a pistol from your hip, place it on a desk and have it end up pointed at yourself. How or why did he do it? Because having a giant holster on your body is a pain in the ass when sitting in an office chair doing paperwork. It's very easy to unclip the holster from the mount and toss it on the desk like you've done 87 times before, and seen done 87 times before you took the position. |
|
Quoted: It's amazing to me that we don't look at other unintentional injuries/deaths with the same level of scrutiny that we do those with firearms. I've said it for a long time - one of the worst things the "gun community" ever did was go along with the anti-gun community's premise that guns are "special." From some of the posts I've seen on these issues, I can only imagine that some of you have your families doing lockout/tagout procedures every time someone is using the toaster. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The internet Sig defenders have certainly been silent. Surprisingly, they have not been quiet on Twitter. They are still in full Simp mode quite a few of them are trying to place the blame on the airmen for setting the holstered gun down facing towards him. You also have the usual, it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fine and these are all user error. We have a couple pages of that nonsense in this thread.  I can certainly see a circumstance for this to be applicable. If you go to your LGS and ask to see a pistol, does the person at the counter grab the pistol by the grip and point it at you to hand it to you? No, they generally hold the slide and hand it to the customer grip-first. IE "pointing a gun at themselves". If there were people sitting around a desk or table or something and someone removed a holstered pistol to set it on the table, I can see the same thing happening - grip by the lower portion of the holster, and set it on the table, grip forward toward the others. In nearly every firearms related incident and accident that has ever happened, it's very much correct to review and evaluate the incident from the perspective of the Four Rules. In nearly every incident with an injury or death outside of target identification, you're going to find the incident was more complicated than not keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Usually, that means someone pulled the trigger, and there were other problems going on as well. In this case, though, it's simply not useful. One, we don't know the layout of the room or how many people were in there. Two, even if we say the Airman should have kept his holster on his belt, we don't know what the change in outcome would be. Depending upon the Airman's height, posture, how he wore the belt and holster, and whether he was standing, sitting or somewhere in between when the discharge happened, there's a whole range of possibilities. Maybe the round flies harmlessly into the floor. Maybe the round goes across the room and hits somebody else. Maybe the round hits the Airman's femoral artery, and he dies anyway. Maybe the round blows out the Airman's knee or ankle. If he didn't take the holster off his belt, he could be dead anyway, he could be facing a court martial for someone else getting shot, or he could have been busted with an NJP, medically chaptered out of the USAF, and facing a lifetime of trying to make ends meet as a disabled veteran. We can arm chair quarterback this thing all day and make silly suggestions like maybe he should have propped the pistol muzzle up or down next to his computer monitor, but the reality is, he never should have been in this situation to begin with. It's amazing to me that we don't look at other unintentional injuries/deaths with the same level of scrutiny that we do those with firearms. I've said it for a long time - one of the worst things the "gun community" ever did was go along with the anti-gun community's premise that guns are "special." From some of the posts I've seen on these issues, I can only imagine that some of you have your families doing lockout/tagout procedures every time someone is using the toaster. So we should turn a blind eye when a tool of our hobby or trade fails repeatedly and catastrophically, because if we scrutinize the failures we might be playing into the anti-gun lobby’s game? That’s your argument? |
|
Quoted: So having a questioning attitude is blaming him? It isn't natural and requires extra manipulation to remove a pistol from your hip, place it on a desk and have it end up pointed at yourself. How or why did he do it? Quoted: Quoted: Surprisingly, they have not been quiet on Twitter. They are still in full Simp mode quite a few of them are trying to place the blame on the airmen for setting the holstered gun down facing towards him. You also have the usual, it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fine and these are all user error. So having a questioning attitude is blaming him? It isn't natural and requires extra manipulation to remove a pistol from your hip, place it on a desk and have it end up pointed at yourself. How or why did he do it? Removing a holster and placing it on a desk requires or should effect zero manipulation of the trigger, which is the problem. Every single one of us in this thread and the others have a questioning attitude. Some are getting butthurt that it’s becoming more prevalent to question Sig, their response(s) or lack thereof. |
|
Quoted: So having a questioning attitude is blaming him? It isn't natural and requires extra manipulation to remove a pistol from your hip, place it on a desk and have it end up pointed at yourself. How or why did he do it? Quoted: Quoted: Surprisingly, they have not been quiet on Twitter. They are still in full Simp mode quite a few of them are trying to place the blame on the airmen for setting the holstered gun down facing towards him. You also have the usual, it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fine and these are all user error. So having a questioning attitude is blaming him? It isn't natural and requires extra manipulation to remove a pistol from your hip, place it on a desk and have it end up pointed at yourself. How or why did he do it? There are a bunch of USAF vets in this thread that have BTDT telling you it's standard practice for desk sergeants to take off their sidearm at the desk. And what difference does it make? Quoted: In nearly every firearms related incident and accident that has ever happened, it's very much correct to review and evaluate the incident from the perspective of the Four Rules. In nearly every incident with an injury or death outside of target identification, you're going to find the incident was more complicated than not keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Usually, that means someone pulled the trigger, and there were other problems going on as well. In this case, though, it's simply not useful. One, we don't know the layout of the room or how many people were in there. Two, even if we say the Airman should have kept his holster on his belt, we don't know what the change in outcome would be. Depending upon the Airman's height, posture, how he wore the belt and holster, and whether he was standing, sitting or somewhere in between when the discharge happened, there's a whole range of possibilities. Maybe the round flies harmlessly into the floor. Maybe the round goes across the room and hits somebody else. Maybe the round hits the Airman's femoral artery, and he dies anyway. Maybe the round blows out the Airman's knee or ankle. If he didn't take the holster off his belt, he could be dead anyway, he could be facing a court martial for someone else getting shot, or he could have been busted with an NJP, medically chaptered out of the USAF, and facing a lifetime of trying to make ends meet as a disabled veteran. We can arm chair quarterback this thing all day and make silly suggestions like maybe he should have propped the pistol muzzle up or down next to his computer monitor, but the reality is, he never should have been in this situation to begin with. |
|
Quoted: Because having a giant holster on your body is a pain in the ass when sitting in an office chair doing paperwork. It's very easy to unclip the holster from the mount and toss it on the desk like you've done 87 times before, and seen done 87 times before you took the position. ETA: I imagine it might be one of the first questions an investigator would be asking. |
|
Quoted: There are a bunch of USAF vets in this thread that have BTDT telling you it's standard practice for desk sergeants to take off their sidearm at the desk. And what difference does it make? ETA: I imagine it might be one of the first questions an investigator would be asking. |
|
Quoted: Global Strike manages the AF's nukes. Nukes are a "no fail" mission; there were some highly publicized fuck ups in the mid 2000s where multiple protocols were ignored, resulting in live nukes being flown across the continental US, and then left essentially unsecured for awhile. Global Strike Command was formed as a direct result of those fuck ups, to (hopefully) ensure better accountability. I've never worked for that particular MAJCOM, but this action is directly in line with their apparent mindset; pulling the pistols from use while the investigation removes one variable completely until they can figure out what caused the accident. Are you saying that Sig may still get exonerated in this one? |
|
Quoted: I'm not questioning his removing the pistol. When I take mine off and set it down it is pointed across the table or to my right (right handed). How did his end up pointed at himself? Quoted: Quoted: Because having a giant holster on your body is a pain in the ass when sitting in an office chair doing paperwork. It's very easy to unclip the holster from the mount and toss it on the desk like you've done 87 times before, and seen done 87 times before you took the position. I'm not questioning his removing the pistol. When I take mine off and set it down it is pointed across the table or to my right (right handed). How did his end up pointed at himself? How was the room set up? How many people were in there with him? Did he have a desk across from his? Were there desks to either side? Maybe it's just complacency, and maybe he had a meaningful reason. We don't know. The actual problem is the firearm discharging while holstered. The orientation of the holster when the discharge happened is merely a circumstance that contributed to a tragic outcome. |
|
USAF SP here, our desk sergeants were issued shoulder holsters. Sad situation and I wish the gun tuber guys would not put Kills Airman in there titles. I bought my son and m18 for Christmas a couple of years ago, he doesn’t carry it he doesn’t trust it and neither do I. I’ve shot it a bit and it’s really nice and accurate. When I dry fire it you can see the slide move as the trigger is pulled I believe there is definitely a flaw and not simple carelessness. |
|
Quoted: How was the room set up? How many people were in there with him? Did he have a desk across from his? Were there desks to either side? Maybe it's just complacency, and maybe he had a meaningful reason. We don't know. The actual problem is the firearm discharging while holstered. The orientation of the holster when the discharge happened is merely a circumstance that contributed to a tragic outcome. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. |
|
Quoted: You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. Quoted: Quoted: How was the room set up? How many people were in there with him? Did he have a desk across from his? Were there desks to either side? Maybe it's just complacency, and maybe he had a meaningful reason. We don't know. The actual problem is the firearm discharging while holstered. The orientation of the holster when the discharge happened is merely a circumstance that contributed to a tragic outcome. You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. Almost like they know more than you on the subject. |
|
Quoted: So we should turn a blind eye when a tool of our hobby or trade fails repeatedly and catastrophically, because if we scrutinize the failures we might be playing into the anti-gun lobby’s game? That’s your argument? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The internet Sig defenders have certainly been silent. Surprisingly, they have not been quiet on Twitter. They are still in full Simp mode quite a few of them are trying to place the blame on the airmen for setting the holstered gun down facing towards him. You also have the usual, it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fine and these are all user error. We have a couple pages of that nonsense in this thread. I can certainly see a circumstance for this to be applicable. If you go to your LGS and ask to see a pistol, does the person at the counter grab the pistol by the grip and point it at you to hand it to you? No, they generally hold the slide and hand it to the customer grip-first. IE "pointing a gun at themselves". If there were people sitting around a desk or table or something and someone removed a holstered pistol to set it on the table, I can see the same thing happening - grip by the lower portion of the holster, and set it on the table, grip forward toward the others. In nearly every firearms related incident and accident that has ever happened, it's very much correct to review and evaluate the incident from the perspective of the Four Rules. In nearly every incident with an injury or death outside of target identification, you're going to find the incident was more complicated than not keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Usually, that means someone pulled the trigger, and there were other problems going on as well. In this case, though, it's simply not useful. One, we don't know the layout of the room or how many people were in there. Two, even if we say the Airman should have kept his holster on his belt, we don't know what the change in outcome would be. Depending upon the Airman's height, posture, how he wore the belt and holster, and whether he was standing, sitting or somewhere in between when the discharge happened, there's a whole range of possibilities. Maybe the round flies harmlessly into the floor. Maybe the round goes across the room and hits somebody else. Maybe the round hits the Airman's femoral artery, and he dies anyway. Maybe the round blows out the Airman's knee or ankle. If he didn't take the holster off his belt, he could be dead anyway, he could be facing a court martial for someone else getting shot, or he could have been busted with an NJP, medically chaptered out of the USAF, and facing a lifetime of trying to make ends meet as a disabled veteran. We can arm chair quarterback this thing all day and make silly suggestions like maybe he should have propped the pistol muzzle up or down next to his computer monitor, but the reality is, he never should have been in this situation to begin with. It's amazing to me that we don't look at other unintentional injuries/deaths with the same level of scrutiny that we do those with firearms. I've said it for a long time - one of the worst things the "gun community" ever did was go along with the anti-gun community's premise that guns are "special." From some of the posts I've seen on these issues, I can only imagine that some of you have your families doing lockout/tagout procedures every time someone is using the toaster. So we should turn a blind eye when a tool of our hobby or trade fails repeatedly and catastrophically, because if we scrutinize the failures we might be playing into the anti-gun lobby’s game? That’s your argument? Exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. My post was referring to the people basically saying it was the Sgt's own fault for putting the gun down pointed toward himself. These are the people so fanatical about the "4 rules" that they get upset when someone "flags" them with a long gun case in the parking lot, and become irate when they learn someone transported cased guns in the trunks of their cars, because it means they were pointed in the direction of other cars, either beside or behind the owner's vehicle. (Yes, there have been threads on that here) These voices are definitely diminishing as far as this p320 issue goes. But there are still quite a few. Those are the people who want to assign more responsibility to the owner/operator of a gun because it's a gun than they would if the same type of incident involved a car, swimming pool, or set of kitchen knives. Because for some reason, guns are "special." Guns aren't special, except insofar as they're the only physical possession that the constitution guarantees we can possess. Owning or carrying a gun doesn't make one "special" either. The people who want to treat this incident, or the people involved, differently because it involves a gun are clouding the issue, which appears to be that a manufacturer is producing and selling a product that is hurting and killing people, and putting others at risk, when being used in a way that seems to be reasonable and safe with any other similar product. |
|
Quoted: Like the guy who decided to remove all vacuums from submarines? Quoted: Quoted: Almost like they know more than you on the subject. Like the guy who decided to remove all vacuums from submarines? Yes. It's called a risk assessment. If the risk is high enough, you deadline or remove equipment until the investigation is complete. A good sign of the seriousness of the investigation is how initially, AF commands outside of this one were instructed that they could still issue the M18, and as information travels through those chains of command, it is now being deadlined in those other units. |
|
Quoted: You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. Quoted: Quoted: How was the room set up? How many people were in there with him? Did he have a desk across from his? Were there desks to either side? Maybe it's just complacency, and maybe he had a meaningful reason. We don't know. The actual problem is the firearm discharging while holstered. The orientation of the holster when the discharge happened is merely a circumstance that contributed to a tragic outcome. You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. If this event was a freaky, unheard of event, and if there's no security footage of it happening (we don't know this yet), you'd be right. But this isn't a freaky event. There are hundreds of these incidents that we know of (who knows how many we haven't heard about), and there's a growing mountain of evidence that tells us the P320 is a dangerous pile of shit that does, in fact, discharge uncommanded. The combination of that history, that context, and Global Strike Command's response tells us a lot despite us not having many official details. |
|
Quoted: USAF SP here, our desk sergeants were issued shoulder holsters. Sad situation and I wish the gun tuber guys would not put Kills Airman in there titles. I bought my son and m18 for Christmas a couple of years ago, he doesn’t carry it he doesn’t trust it and neither do I. I’ve shot it a bit and it’s really nice and accurate. When I dry fire it you can see the slide move as the trigger is pulled I believe there is definitely a flaw and not simple carelessness. Yeah, its a little weird how the slide does that. The red dot shifts noticeably in the glass after the trigger is pulled during dry fire. |
|
Quoted: You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. Are the service members carrying the M18s trained to draw and rack the slide Israeli style? Thats just replacing one problem with another. Its better to just take the pistols out of service and replace with M4s for now. |
|
Quoted: Yes. It's called a risk assessment. If the risk is high enough, you deadline or remove equipment until the investigation is complete. A good sign of the seriousness of the investigation is how initially, AF commands outside of this one were instructed that they could still issue the M18, and as information travels through those chains of command, it is now being deadlined in those other units. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Almost like they know more than you on the subject. Like the guy who decided to remove all vacuums from submarines? Yes. It's called a risk assessment. If the risk is high enough, you deadline or remove equipment until the investigation is complete. A good sign of the seriousness of the investigation is how initially, AF commands outside of this one were instructed that they could still issue the M18, and as information travels through those chains of command, it is now being deadlined in those other units. There's also the fact that the USMC is ALSO conducting a major investigation/assessment of the M17/M18 right now FOR SOME REASON, and there are credible rumors elements of the USMC are preparing to acquire M9 variants until Army PEO brings in something else. What are the odds that two branches of the military would be in this situation, independently of each other, at the same time? |
|
Quoted: WTF is a 'plunger fired pistol'? Did you mean to say striker fired? Quoted: Quoted: "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . WTF is a 'plunger fired pistol'? Did you mean to say striker fired? I think everybody has been ignoring that guy, since he thinks guns fire by means of a plunger. Maybe he only uses Water Pistols. 
|
|
Quoted: I'm not questioning his removing the pistol. When I take mine off and set it down it is pointed across the table or to my right (right handed). How did his end up pointed at himself? ETA: I imagine it might be one of the first questions an investigator would be asking. I thought about this because I use a Safariland ALS that attached to my battlebelt via a QLS. I'm right handed but Airman Lovan (RIP) doesn't have to be as what I'm describing someone left handed could do mirrored. I'd hold the grip of my pistol with my right hand, and release the QLS by pinching the forks together with my left hand. While most people, myself included, would keep their grip on the pistol with their strong/dominant hand, it's foreseeable that once the fork cleared the QLS locking mechanism he reestablished his grip around the bottom of the holster, let go of it with his right hand and then placed it on the desk, which would place the barrel facing directly towards him. If he was seated when he did this it would have been pointing at his chest, standing his groin. It's not hard to imagine that's exactly what happened, and I'd agree with the previous statement(s) that a holstered and loaded handgun, with the trigger guard covered, would/could/should be considered safe under the 4-safety rules. While I would not handle it in a manner where it was pointed somewhere I didn't want a round to go I would not find fault with someone who did. |
|
Quoted:
I thought about this because I use a Safariland ALS that attached to my battlebelt via a QLS. I'm right handed but Airman Lovan (RIP) doesn't have to be as what I'm describing someone left handed could do mirrored. I'd hold the grip of my pistol with my right hand, and release the QLS by pinching the forks together with my left hand. While most people, myself included, would keep their grip on the pistol with their strong/dominant hand, it's foreseeable that once the fork cleared the QLS locking mechanism he reestablished his grip around the bottom of the holster, let go of it with his right hand and then placed it on the desk, which would place the barrel facing directly towards him. If he was seated when he did this it would have been pointing at his chest, standing his groin. It's not hard to imagine that's exactly what happened, and I'd agree with the previous statement(s) that a holstered and loaded handgun, with the trigger guard covered, would/could/should be considered safe under the 4-safety rules. While I would not handle it in a manner where it was pointed somewhere I didn't want a round to go I would not find fault with someone who did. |
|
Quoted: Are the service members carrying the M18s trained to draw and rack the slide Israeli style? Thats just replacing one problem with another. Its better to just take the pistols out of service and replace with M4s for now. Quoted: Quoted: You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. Are the service members carrying the M18s trained to draw and rack the slide Israeli style? Thats just replacing one problem with another. Its better to just take the pistols out of service and replace with M4s for now. “Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.” My concern would be that carrying with an empty chamber just becomes the new norm, and the heart of the problem doesn’t get addressed, nor does it draw the amount of attention the problem needs. If the problems were be fixed (if the P320 can be fixed), then the norm is still carrying with an empty chamber and it never reverts back to carrying with a loaded chamber. |
|
Quoted: I'm not questioning his removing the pistol. When I take mine off and set it down it is pointed across the table or to my right (right handed). How did his end up pointed at himself? ETA: I imagine it might be one of the first questions an investigator would be asking. Yeah, he shouldn't have pointed it at himself but it also shouldn't have gone off. |
|
Quoted: USAF SP here, our desk sergeants were issued shoulder holsters. Sad situation and I wish the gun tuber guys would not put Kills Airman in there titles. I bought my son and m18 for Christmas a couple of years ago, he doesn’t carry it he doesn’t trust it and neither do I. I’ve shot it a bit and it’s really nice and accurate. When I dry fire it you can see the slide move as the trigger is pulled I believe there is definitely a flaw and not simple carelessness. They seem to be a nice firearm if it wasn't for the safety issue. |
|
Quoted: “Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.” My concern would be that carrying with an empty chamber just becomes the new norm, and the heart of the problem doesn’t get addressed, nor does it draw the amount of attention the problem needs. If the problems were be fixed (if the P320 can be fixed), then the norm is still carrying with an empty chamber and it never reverts back to carrying with a loaded chamber. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. Are the service members carrying the M18s trained to draw and rack the slide Israeli style? Thats just replacing one problem with another. Its better to just take the pistols out of service and replace with M4s for now. “Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.” My concern would be that carrying with an empty chamber just becomes the new norm, and the heart of the problem doesn’t get addressed, nor does it draw the amount of attention the problem needs. If the problems were be fixed (if the P320 can be fixed), then the norm is still carrying with an empty chamber and it never reverts back to carrying with a loaded chamber. If they go to carrying it with an empty chamber it solves part of the problem, but there will still be times they have it chambered, and possibly pointed at someone. That would be a bad time for it to go off uncommanded. |
|
Quoted: If this event was a freaky, unheard of event, and if there's no security footage of it happening (we don't know this yet), you'd be right. But this isn't a freaky event. There are hundreds of these incidents that we know of (who knows how many we haven't heard about), and there's a growing mountain of evidence that tells us the P320 is a dangerous pile of shit that does, in fact, discharge uncommanded. The combination of that history, that context, and Global Strike Command's response tells us a lot despite us not having many official details. Yep. I was hoping early on it was a holster issue (pistol seemed promising). But there's too many events to assume that anymore. |
|
Quoted: I have an 80s West German P226 that I absolutely LOVE. It’s one of my favorite guns. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/258158/IMG_1853_jpeg-3593865.JPG (Not my pic, but I liked the Game Boy to go along with the 80s theme) Now, having said that…. For personal use, I wouldn’t buy a SIG handgun made in the past decade even if they were having a 50% off sale. YMMV. Sig USA was better when they were just importing guns from Germany |
|
Quoted: If they go to carrying it with an empty chamber it solves part of the problem, but there will still be times they have it chambered, and possibly pointed at someone. That would be a bad time for it to go off uncommanded. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. Are the service members carrying the M18s trained to draw and rack the slide Israeli style? Thats just replacing one problem with another. Its better to just take the pistols out of service and replace with M4s for now. “Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.” My concern would be that carrying with an empty chamber just becomes the new norm, and the heart of the problem doesn’t get addressed, nor does it draw the amount of attention the problem needs. If the problems were be fixed (if the P320 can be fixed), then the norm is still carrying with an empty chamber and it never reverts back to carrying with a loaded chamber. If they go to carrying it with an empty chamber it solves part of the problem, but there will still be times they have it chambered, and possibly pointed at someone. That would be a bad time for it to go off uncommanded. Yeap, you pull your weapon on a guy holding a knife and he puts it down. You tell him to turn around and place his hands on his head. He complies, but just before he gets his hands on top of his head, BLAM!!!!!!!. You just put one through his back, center line and the bullet passes through his heart on the way out. You think the USAF is going to defend you? |
|
Quoted: I have an 80s West German P226 that I absolutely LOVE. It’s one of my favorite guns. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/258158/IMG_1853_jpeg-3593865.JPG (Not my pic, but I liked the Game Boy to go along with the 80s theme) Now, having said that…. For personal use, I wouldn’t buy a SIG handgun made in the past decade even if they were having a 50% off sale. YMMV. Quoted: Quoted: At this point in my life I have never bought a single SIG-made firearm and now that we are past the days of the 220/226 I don't understand you people who even know what they make anymore, much less actually buy them. I have an 80s West German P226 that I absolutely LOVE. It’s one of my favorite guns. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/258158/IMG_1853_jpeg-3593865.JPG (Not my pic, but I liked the Game Boy to go along with the 80s theme) Now, having said that…. For personal use, I wouldn’t buy a SIG handgun made in the past decade even if they were having a 50% off sale. YMMV. I have a used, PD trade-in P226 that gets carried a lot. I also have a P320 that sits in the safe. |
|
Quoted: Are you saying that Sig may still get exonerated in this one? I was just saying that halting use of the M18 probably wasn't a knee jerk reaction by the MAJCOM commander, it aligns with how the AF investigates accidents/incidents. There is a potential that the gun itself was the issue; stopping the use of that gun prevents further potential similar tragedies until they can determine what the root cause was. |
|
Quoted: I have an 80s West German P226 that I absolutely LOVE. It's one of my favorite guns. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/258158/IMG_1853_jpeg-3593865.JPG (Not my pic, but I liked the Game Boy to go along with the 80s theme) Now, having said that . For personal use, I wouldn't buy a SIG handgun made in the past decade even if they were having a 50% off sale. YMMV. |
|
Quoted: That's not what I meant to say, or imply. I was just saying that halting use of the M18 probably wasn't a knee jerk reaction by the MAJCOM commander, it aligns with how the AF investigates accidents/incidents. There is a potential that the gun itself was the issue; stopping the use of that gun prevents further potential similar tragedies until they can determine what the root cause was. Quoted: Quoted: Are you saying that Sig may still get exonerated in this one? I was just saying that halting use of the M18 probably wasn't a knee jerk reaction by the MAJCOM commander, it aligns with how the AF investigates accidents/incidents. There is a potential that the gun itself was the issue; stopping the use of that gun prevents further potential similar tragedies until they can determine what the root cause was. This not being the first incident, it happemed in Japan too, means they kept the weapon in service until a death occured. There is a lot of blame to go around. The Airman should have never been placed in this situation. |
|
Quoted: Probably pie in the sky, but I'm hoping that when the smoke clears there might be some allowance for trading in the 320s we got for something like that. Even though I demand a manual safety on my autoloaders, I could live with the decock only in that particular situation. If Sig offered either a full refund + tax or a Sig SP2022 in trade I would be satisfied. |
|
Quoted: Are the service members carrying the M18s trained to draw and rack the slide Israeli style? Thats just replacing one problem with another. Its better to just take the pistols out of service and replace with M4s for now. The USAF doesn’t train Israeli carry. The M18 is not being carried and all the local defenders have their M4, even on the gate. |
|
Quoted: Not questioning his removal of the pistol. I'm wondering how it ended up pointed at himself. When I take mine off it is either pointed across the table/counter or to my right (right handed). ETA: I imagine it might be one of the first questions an investigator would be asking. |
|
Quoted: Yeap, you pull your weapon on a guy holding a knife and he puts it down. You tell him to turn around and place his hands on his head. He complies, but just before he gets his hands on top of his head, BLAM!!!!!!!. You just put one through his back, center line and the bullet passes through his heart on the way out. You think the USAF is going to defend you? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You're ignoring all of those questions and going right to the gun went off by itself. Were you ever in the military and ever witness a ridiculously stupid over reaction to something bad happening? Like removing all vacuum cleaners from submarines because someone thought that is what caused the Miami fire. You're right, we don't know the answers to those questions. But we should and we probably eventually will. ETA: My more prudent reaction would have been to cease carrying a round in the chamber, as others have suggested, until the investigation is complete. Not dead lining all M18s. Are the service members carrying the M18s trained to draw and rack the slide Israeli style? Thats just replacing one problem with another. Its better to just take the pistols out of service and replace with M4s for now. “Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.” My concern would be that carrying with an empty chamber just becomes the new norm, and the heart of the problem doesn’t get addressed, nor does it draw the amount of attention the problem needs. If the problems were be fixed (if the P320 can be fixed), then the norm is still carrying with an empty chamber and it never reverts back to carrying with a loaded chamber. If they go to carrying it with an empty chamber it solves part of the problem, but there will still be times they have it chambered, and possibly pointed at someone. That would be a bad time for it to go off uncommanded. Yeap, you pull your weapon on a guy holding a knife and he puts it down. You tell him to turn around and place his hands on his head. He complies, but just before he gets his hands on top of his head, BLAM!!!!!!!. You just put one through his back, center line and the bullet passes through his heart on the way out. You think the USAF is going to defend you? I suspect that scenario plays into a lot of law enforcement agencies dumping it. Imagine the nightmare headlines of "police officer executes surrendering suspect" that would be broadcast nonstop. Bad enough on its own, now make it a white cop and black suspect. "My gun went off by itself!" wouldn't mean a thing to the frenzy it would create. 
|
|
Quoted: Not questioning his removal of the pistol. I'm wondering how it ended up pointed at himself. When I take mine off it is either pointed across the table/counter or to my right (right handed). ETA: I imagine it might be one of the first questions an investigator would be asking. Quoted: Quoted: There are a bunch of USAF vets in this thread that have BTDT telling you it's standard practice for desk sergeants to take off their sidearm at the desk. And what difference does it make? Not questioning his removal of the pistol. I'm wondering how it ended up pointed at himself. When I take mine off it is either pointed across the table/counter or to my right (right handed). ETA: I imagine it might be one of the first questions an investigator would be asking. Hate to be the one to break it to you but if you carry everyday, you have flagged yourself or others. It's just how it is, you're not special or any different. There is zero safe direction for a firearm to discharge when not under control of a person. There is also no safe direction for a firearm to discharge (un-command ) in a holster. |
|
For those of you paying attention to the process going on here, it's worth noting the incident occurred in the early morning hours (implying midshift, though not stated) of July 20. Today is the 25th, which also implies there is no video or eye witness. I say this because the stand-down hasn't progressed past Global Strike Command, the parent MAJCOM of the wing and squadron, which almost certainly would have occurred if there was conclusive evidence a holstered pistol sitting static on a desk suddenly and randomly fired. Someone mentioned the other day that the Army has the lead on the weapon tear down, because they were the lead procurement agency. I have no idea if that's true, but it does kind of pass the sniff test. If true, five days would seem like a lot of time to test both the incident pistol and the others in the squadron, and to also immediately have issued a stop-use if they had found an obvious problem. I've read several articles that claim the other branches (and some civilian orgs) are watching this investigation closely, so this shouldn't be a long, drawn out affair. I mentioned mid-shift because I'm curious why a probable SrA (E-4) would be assigned desk sergeant duties. We had a serious problem in maintenance with NCOs and SNCOs drifting to day shift...especially SNCOs, leaving young Airman to run the show on mids. We ended up prohibiting engine runs, aircraft jacks and hangar tows on mid shift at one mx group for just that reason. Missile base cop has a reputation for not being a high-demand assignment, it's reputedly kind of dull for the most part. Again, I would recommend waiting for the results of the OSI investigation, which will be looking at all the human factors involved here. Take that for what it's worth. |
|
Quoted: For those of you paying attention to the process going on here, it's worth noting the incident occurred in the early morning hours (implying midshift, though not stated) of July 20. Today is the 25th, which also implies there is no video or eye witness. I say this because the stand-down hasn't progressed past Global Strike Command, the parent MAJCOM of the wing and squadron, which almost certainly would have occurred if there was conclusive evidence a holstered pistol sitting static on a desk suddenly and randomly fired. Someone mentioned the other day that the Army has the lead on the weapon tear down, because they were the lead procurement agency. I have no idea if that's true, but it does kind of pass the sniff test. If true, five days would seem like a lot of time to test both the incident pistol and the others in the squadron, and to also immediately have issued a stop-use if they had found an obvious problem. I've read several articles that claim the other branches (and some civilian orgs) are watching this investigation closely, so this shouldn't be a long, drawn out affair. I mentioned mid-shift because I'm curious why a probable SrA (E-4) would be assigned desk sergeant duties. We had a serious problem in maintenance with NCOs and SNCOs drifting to day shift...especially SNCOs, leaving young Airman to run the show on mids. We ended up prohibiting engine runs, aircraft jacks and hangar tows at one mx group for just that reason. Missile base cop has a reputation for not being a high-demand assignment, it's reputedly kind of dull for the most part. Again, I would recommend waiting for the results of the OSI investigation, which will be looking at all the human factors involved here. Take that for what it's worth. 
|
|
Quoted: For those of you paying attention to the process going on here, it's worth noting the incident occurred in the early morning hours (implying midshift, though not stated) of July 20. Today is the 25th, which also implies there is no video or eye witness. I say this because the stand-down hasn't progressed past Global Strike Command, the parent MAJCOM of the wing and squadron, which almost certainly would have occurred if there was conclusive evidence a holstered pistol sitting static on a desk suddenly and randomly fired. Someone mentioned the other day that the Army has the lead on the weapon tear down, because they were the lead procurement agency. I have no idea if that's true, but it does kind of pass the sniff test. If true, five days would seem like a lot of time to test both the incident pistol and the others in the squadron, and to also immediately have issued a stop-use if they had found an obvious problem. I've read several articles that claim the other branches (and some civilian orgs) are watching this investigation closely, so this shouldn't be a long, drawn out affair. I mentioned mid-shift because I'm curious why a probable SrA (E-4) would be assigned desk sergeant duties. We had a serious problem in maintenance with NCOs and SNCOs drifting to day shift...especially SNCOs, leaving young Airman to run the show on mids. We ended up prohibiting engine runs, aircraft jacks and hangar tows at one mx group for just that reason. Missile base cop has a reputation for not being a high-demand assignment, it's reputedly kind of dull for the most part. Again, I would recommend waiting for the results of the OSI investigation, which will be looking at all the human factors involved here. Take that for what it's worth. I was a Senior airman and was training to be a desk sergeant, I didn’t really are for the duty and preferred riding patrol. I lucked out and another buck sergeant wanted it so I got to go back on the road. I started with the smith model 15, when we transitioned to the M9 we carried them with a round chambered. When I was in the flight chief was always and E-6. |
|
Quoted: I thought about this because I use a Safariland ALS that attached to my battlebelt via a QLS. I'm right handed but Airman Lovan (RIP) doesn't have to be as what I'm describing someone left handed could do mirrored. I'd hold the grip of my pistol with my right hand, and release the QLS by pinching the forks together with my left hand. While most people, myself included, would keep their grip on the pistol with their strong/dominant hand, it's foreseeable that once the fork cleared the QLS locking mechanism he reestablished his grip around the bottom of the holster, let go of it with his right hand and then placed it on the desk, which would place the barrel facing directly towards him. If he was seated when he did this it would have been pointing at his chest, standing his groin. It's not hard to imagine that's exactly what happened, and I'd agree with the previous statement(s) that a holstered and loaded handgun, with the trigger guard covered, would/could/should be considered safe under the 4-safety rules. While I would not handle it in a manner where it was pointed somewhere I didn't want a round to go I would not find fault with someone who did. Quoted: I thought about this because I use a Safariland ALS that attached to my battlebelt via a QLS. I'm right handed but Airman Lovan (RIP) doesn't have to be as what I'm describing someone left handed could do mirrored. I'd hold the grip of my pistol with my right hand, and release the QLS by pinching the forks together with my left hand. While most people, myself included, would keep their grip on the pistol with their strong/dominant hand, it's foreseeable that once the fork cleared the QLS locking mechanism he reestablished his grip around the bottom of the holster, let go of it with his right hand and then placed it on the desk, which would place the barrel facing directly towards him. If he was seated when he did this it would have been pointing at his chest, standing his groin. It's not hard to imagine that's exactly what happened, and I'd agree with the previous statement(s) that a holstered and loaded handgun, with the trigger guard covered, would/could/should be considered safe under the 4-safety rules. While I would not handle it in a manner where it was pointed somewhere I didn't want a round to go I would not find fault with someone who did. Knowing zero about the QLS, this helps a lot. Quoted: Yeap, you pull your weapon on a guy holding a knife and he puts it down. You tell him to turn around and place his hands on his head. He complies, but just before he gets his hands on top of his head, BLAM!!!!!!!. You just put one through his back, center line and the bullet passes through his heart on the way out. You think the USAF is going to defend you? That was my first thought when chamber empty carry was suggested, and at this point that unfortunately seems like a plausible scenario. Quoted: That's not what I meant to say, or imply. I was just saying that halting use of the M18 probably wasn't a knee jerk reaction by the MAJCOM commander, it aligns with how the AF investigates accidents/incidents. There is a potential that the gun itself was the issue; stopping the use of that gun prevents further potential similar tragedies until they can determine what the root cause was. Fair enough… |