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Posted: 5/23/2023 9:27:29 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the article they site no trigger tab safety being the problem. Ok so which is it? Did it spontaneously fire or was the trigger pulled. Also doesn't Sig offer the 320 in both a safety and non safety version? Also why aren't NDs happening left and right at the Sig Academy? I've been there many times and never heard of or saw anyone have an ND which seems odd because their class loaner guns are pretty beat to shit and used every day. The argument being used in court now is that the "trigger is too light" - they keep pivoting and blaming different things |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 9:28:58 AM EDT
[#2]
I wouldn’t own one and I own SIGs. They should’ve just stayed with the tried and true (and safe) SP2022 and developed it further. Dumb.
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Posted: 5/23/2023 9:32:52 AM EDT
[#3]
Maybe they should go back to double action revolvers, ha
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Posted: 5/23/2023 9:33:53 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The .mil carries them worldwide daily with no problems. The USAF doesn’t use the safety so don’t state that is a difference. The Army version has a thumb safety. The AF version is issued to officers and is carried Israeli. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 9:36:06 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army version has a thumb safety. The AF version is issued to officers and is carried Israeli. Condition 3? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 9:48:09 AM EDT
[#6]
How has the ATF not regulated the 320 as a machine gun yet?
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Posted: 5/23/2023 9:57:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The .mil also carries with an empty chamber. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Shitty holsters and poor wpns handling. The .mil carries them worldwide daily with no problems. The USAF doesn’t use the safety so don’t state that is a difference. The .mil also carries with an empty chamber. Obligatory "USAF isnt the military" joke aside. Unless there has been a major policy change in the 10 years I've been out, there are a few thousand people in the USAF that carry a p320 with one in the chamber daily. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:02:18 AM EDT
[#8]
In before the still capture of the cop ND with his finger on the trigger and said it went off by itself?
lol, at the Sig hate and their ignorance. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:02:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Reminds me of all the horror stories about Sudden Unintended Acceleration, where the victims swore they were standing on the brake pedal and the car kept accelerating.
Just people doing dumb people stuff. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:06:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obligatory "USAF isnt the military" joke aside. Unless there has been a major policy change in the 10 years I've been out, there are a few thousand people in the USAF that carry a p320 with one in the chamber daily. When do they get ammo? Right before a range? I was infantry for 10 years and we only got ammo right before a range or on deployments. It is USAF SOP to carry in what condition? Are you talking security forces or MPs? Gate guards? I would assume they would have their weapons in condition 1. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:09:36 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When do they get ammo? Right before a range? I was infantry for 10 years and we only got ammo right before a range or on deployments. It is USAF SOP to carry in what condition? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Obligatory "USAF isnt the military" joke aside. Unless there has been a major policy change in the 10 years I've been out, there are a few thousand people in the USAF that carry a p320 with one in the chamber daily. When do they get ammo? Right before a range? I was infantry for 10 years and we only got ammo right before a range or on deployments. It is USAF SOP to carry in what condition? Security Forces. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:10:27 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When do they get ammo? Right before a range? I was infantry for 10 years and we only got ammo right before a range or on deployments. It is USAF SOP to carry in what condition? Air Force Security Forces. I was infantry for 12 years and knew that my first enlistment. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:12:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Air Force Security Forces. I was infantry for 12 years and knew that my first enlistment. I would assume even gate guards are in condition 1 though. I would assume all MPs, MAs and Security Forces are in condition 1. I don’t think that is unique to Air Force. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:23:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would assume even gate guards are in condition 1 though. I would assume all MPs, MAs and Security Forces are in condition 1. I don’t think that is unique to Air Force. You can assume, but army gate guards aren't, unless they're MPs or DA Security. I can't speak for the latter, but we were required to be amber while on guard at the gates. SOP changes all the time, so who knows which base operates at what security posture or carry condition. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:26:13 AM EDT
[#15]
Having been through the P320 armorers course
Nope. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:27:48 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would assume even gate guards are in condition 1 though. I would assume all MPs, MAs and Security Forces are in condition 1. I don’t think that is unique to Air Force. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Air Force Security Forces. I was infantry for 12 years and knew that my first enlistment. I would assume even gate guards are in condition 1 though. I would assume all MPs, MAs and Security Forces are in condition 1. I don’t think that is unique to Air Force. I was responding to: Quoted: Quoted: Shitty holsters and poor wpns handling. The .mil carries them worldwide daily with no problems. The USAF doesn’t use the safety so don’t state that is a difference. The .mil also carries with an empty chamber. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:28:25 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a video of a plain clothes police officer getting out is a car and his p320 fires. It's not a high quality video but the guy just exits the back of a car and his holstered gun fires Is this the one where they were using the modified holsters instead of purchasing model specific ones and the seat belt was able to wedge into the trigger guard. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:36:22 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can assume, but army gate guards aren't, unless they're MPs or DA Security. I can't speak for the latter, but we were required to be amber while on guard at the gates. SOP changes all the time, so who knows which base operates at what security posture or carry condition. Interesting. I have a few buddies who are gate guards. I will ask. It is all contract gate guards where I work. The majority of on base police are civilian too. There is a small MP unit. Not including gate guards then, I would assume all military police forces carry in condition 1. On Pendleton, and the vast majority of USMC bases, it is almost all MPs, to save money. They are in condition 1 |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:38:37 AM EDT
[#19]
If it's not an issue with the gun itself, then why does this keep coming up? You don't hear the same stories with other handguns. At least not to the same extent.
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:38:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Having been through the P320 armorers course Nope. @Natty_Bumppo - I've never taken one apart. What safety features prevents it? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:41:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. I have a few buddies who are gate guards. I will ask. It is all contract gate guards where I work. The majority of on base police are civilian too. There is a small MP unit. Not including gate guards then, I would assume all military police forces carry in condition 1. On Pendleton, and the vast majority of USMC bases, it is almost all MPs, to save money. They are in condition 1 Our SOP was written by post command and signed by the Corps commander with oversight by the post DA security office. I'm sure the situation is similar at other posts. Nobody at our post over the 3.5 years I did gate guard (as a red cycle task) were allowed to carry condition 1 and that was with the M9. Most had empty magazines and the live ammo was strictly controlled. Like I said, it could be different since the last time I did it in 2017 or at different posts. A lot has happened in 6 years. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:45:15 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it's not an issue with the gun itself, then why does this keep coming up? You don't hear the same stories with other handguns. At least not to the same extent. If it is an issue with the gun, why isn't the problem replicated and repeatable? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:46:30 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Natty_Bumppo - I've never taken one apart. What safety features prevents it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Having been through the P320 armorers course Nope. @Natty_Bumppo - I've never taken one apart. What safety features prevents it? There is a video that breaks down and shows how the internal safeties work. Gun won't go off without the trigger being pulled. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:46:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How has the ATF not regulated the 320 as a machine gun yet? Whoa now |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:47:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Natty_Bumppo - I've never taken one apart. What safety features prevents it? I have seen 3 people ND from an M9 into their leg. Saw a guy shoot himself with an M4 into his foot. They all required the trigger to be pulled. I am not an Sig fanboy or even own a P320 of any flavor. I do have a hard time thinking these weapons are firing without the trigger being pulled. It is obviously not an intentional trigger pull. Could be getting snagged somehow. I know the drop safety was a concern. That part is a little sketchy. It was reproduced by several people in several different ways. My guess, there are LEOs having NDs by several different variables and blaming the gun because it is an easy out. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:48:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A negligent discharge is a serious policy violation and can result in significant discipline to include termination. Therefore the pistol just went off by itself. What? You've never had a desk pop? We've all had a desk pop! |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:49:35 AM EDT
[#27]
Is this firing malfunction just for the P320? I was curious if the P365 had any issues like this.
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:50:07 AM EDT
[#28]
Why is it that the gun community cannot reduplicate this issue or demonstrate how the failure is taking place? If it was just "going off" the internet would be all over this like Dropgate showing how if you jiggle the pistol or bump the pistol in a certain way it will just go off.
Quoted: I have seen 3 people ND from an M9 into their leg. Saw a guy shoot himself with an M4 into his foot. They all required the trigger to be pulled. I am not an Sig fanboy or even own a P320 of any flavor. I do have a hard time thinking these weapons are firing without the trigger being pulled. It is obviously not an intentional trigger pull. Could be getting snagged somehow. I know the drop safety was a concern. That part is a little sketchy. It was reproduced by several people in several different ways. My guess, there are LEOs having NDs by several different variables and blaming the gun because it is an easy out. The inventive to lie is very high and say "oh it just went off" because saying you caused the ND because your jacket was in the holster or your finger was on the trigger while holstering could make you responsible for the outcome versus Sig. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:50:44 AM EDT
[#29]
@1975 your thread is a dupe: https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/NY-Post-Another-hit-job-on-P320s--/5-2646973/
Why copy/paste the entire article when: 1 - ... it leaves Arfcom open-to potential legal issues with the publisher 2 -The NY Post is at least halfway conservative in a den of inequity and in need of the page views and cpms. 3 - ... it's basically thievery to steal the entire column - fair use dictates a link and excerpt. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:51:16 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why is it that the gun community cannot reduplicate this issue or demonstrate how the failure is taking place? If it was just "going off" the internet would be all over this like Dropgate showing how if you jiggle the pistol or bump the pistol in a certain way it will just go off. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:52:05 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to the lawsuit, about 100 of them. Let's not ignore the drop safety failures when they were first released. Drop safeties were perfected in revolvers eons ago, so do not act like this was some new technology they were implementing. So, the lawsuit says they can make the weapon fire without pulling the trigger? Not the drop safety thing, but put a condition 1 P320 in a duty holster and it will just fire? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:52:21 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this firing malfunction just for the P320? I was curious if the P365 had any issues like this. Both of them fire when the trigger is pulled.  I'm not aware of any claims with the P365 of "just going off". |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:54:18 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It may be a QC issue and not all are affected. Yeah it could but I still have not see it reduplicated even with the effected guns. If the guns in question can just go off why has no one shown look if I do this boom it drops the striker. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:58:59 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah it could but I still have not see it reduplicated even with the effected guns. If the guns in question can just go off why has no one shown look if I do this boom it drops the striker. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:00:10 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The .mil also carries with an empty chamber. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Shitty holsters and poor wpns handling. The .mil carries them worldwide daily with no problems. The USAF doesn’t use the safety so don’t state that is a difference. The .mil also carries with an empty chamber. They do? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:00:30 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't own one and I own SIGs. They should've just stayed with the tried and true (and safe) SP2022 and developed it further. Dumb. IWB in a holster that completely covers the trigger. OWB in a holster that completely covers the trigger. No external safety. Round in the chamber. No ND. Just anecdotal, but I pay attention when I holster the weapon, regardless of which one I am carrying (also carry an sub-compact XD or a double-stack .45 every now and again). |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:02:46 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have seen 3 people ND from an M9 into their leg. Saw a guy shoot himself with an M4 into his foot. They all required the trigger to be pulled. I am not an Sig fanboy or even own a P320 of any flavor. I do have a hard time thinking these weapons are firing without the trigger being pulled. It is obviously not an intentional trigger pull. Could be getting snagged somehow. I know the drop safety was a concern. That part is a little sketchy. It was reproduced by several people in several different ways. My guess, there are LEOs having NDs by several different variables and blaming the gun because it is an easy out. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @Natty_Bumppo - I've never taken one apart. What safety features prevents it? I have seen 3 people ND from an M9 into their leg. Saw a guy shoot himself with an M4 into his foot. They all required the trigger to be pulled. I am not an Sig fanboy or even own a P320 of any flavor. I do have a hard time thinking these weapons are firing without the trigger being pulled. It is obviously not an intentional trigger pull. Could be getting snagged somehow. I know the drop safety was a concern. That part is a little sketchy. It was reproduced by several people in several different ways. My guess, there are LEOs having NDs by several different variables and blaming the gun because it is an easy out. Pending evidence that thus far doesn’t exist, this is a very reasonable assumption. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:03:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “I had holstered my duty weapon, tucked it away when we heard a pop." There is always more to the story, like what hooked the trigger as it was holstered. A finger, shirt, jacket, something that was inside the trigger guard as it was pushed into the holster. June even in NYS is quite unlikely to be wearing a jacket. Edit, I guess if drawing from a concealed jacket was part of the exercises then the likelihood goes up. (I recalled we did such training as we worked plainclothes and uniform and ahem it does rain in June, so I shot too quick perhaps) |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:04:39 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a video of a plain clothes police officer getting out is a car and his p320 fires. It's not a high quality video but the guy just exits the back of a car and his holstered gun fires Didn't you nuke your thread about this same topic when it was pointed out in a frame still that it was an officer's finger and not the gun itself? Not trying to call you out but you seem rather wanting to trash the 320 a lot more than it deserves
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:05:31 AM EDT
[#40]
I'm sure this guy's chamber is empty...
 *the stupidity here shouldn't surprise me. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:06:58 AM EDT
[#41]
Amazing how I’ve done run and guns and other pretty intense stuff with mine and have never been shot…….
Strange. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:12:57 AM EDT
[#42]
The highest likelihood of having an ND occurs during holstering and unholstering a weapon. Everyone knows that. The claims that these weapons are firing, when holstered, with no manipulation of the trigger, with no type of outside debris in the holster, are simply not believable.
Sig opened the door to this with the drop safety recall. The P320 has had a stigma ever since and allows for a scapegoat when stupid people do stupid things. Sure, accidents happen, hence why they are accidental discharges. The P320 stigma just allows for people to not have to take responsibility for their actions.  Watch Taurus 24/7 pistol fire just by being shaken |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:14:03 AM EDT
[#43]
+ P320 has a ledge to block the striker
+ P320 has a detent that retains the striker - P320 trigger retracts those safeties with very little movement - P320 striker is always fully tensioned |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:16:29 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Amazing how I’ve done run and guns and other pretty intense stuff with mine and have never been shot……. Strange. I had over 220+ hours of classes, instructor/shooting courses and training last year alone. That isn't including my time on the range instructing others. Vast majority of that time with different models of Glocks and P320's, with a sprinkle of M&P's. Zero extra holes in me or anyone else carrying a P320. No ND's either. Weird! |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:16:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Amazing how I’ve done run and guns and other pretty intense stuff with mine and have never been shot……. Strange. Right? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:17:25 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The argument being used in court now is that the "trigger is too light" - they keep pivoting and blaming different things Whatever the cause......the number of incidents are occurring. What are the contributing factors? Likely all of them! holster gaps sweet pulling light trigger narrow trigger guard user induced issues like not watching jacket tails, pull cords etc. whether it’s the users own fault or not the agencies, the gun maker and the holster makers have to address it to get the numbers to statistically near zero. It’s no good to say it’s a training issue to lay blame and still have the problem. Personally I am guessing the trigger is to light for the degree of protection it has. I’d really put my guess on it’s getting defeated right with an inadvertent trigger pull if they cannot replicate the issue. Now fix that. Active mechanical safety, widen the trigger guard a lot, increase the trigger pull weight. Whichever it takes to fix the issue. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:18:42 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reminds me of all the horror stories about Sudden Unintended Acceleration, where the victims swore they were standing on the brake pedal and the car kept accelerating. Just people doing dumb people stuff. The floor mat? |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:20:58 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn’t own one and I own SIGs. They should’ve just stayed with the tried and true (and safe) SP2022 and developed it further. Dumb. It's hard to inadvertently pull a 10lb trigger. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:21:10 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The argument being used in court now is that the "trigger is too light" - they keep pivoting and blaming different things Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In the article they site no trigger tab safety being the problem. Ok so which is it? Did it spontaneously fire or was the trigger pulled. Also doesn't Sig offer the 320 in both a safety and non safety version? Also why aren't NDs happening left and right at the Sig Academy? I've been there many times and never heard of or saw anyone have an ND which seems odd because their class loaner guns are pretty beat to shit and used every day. The argument being used in court now is that the "trigger is too light" - they keep pivoting and blaming different things I have a Wilson 320 with the optional grey guns flat trigger. Which is really light and has alot of leverage. It's in a safariland gls holster. When this started hitting the news. I started keeping it cocked, empty chamber in its holster with a mag in it while out and a out on our farm. It's been bounced around in the bed of my side by side or hung in my tractor for easily over a hundred hours. I've yet to find that it's fired itself. I did have a Savage 110 brand new that would go click if you thumped its butt on the floor before I fixed it. 
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Posted: 5/23/2023 11:21:11 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the article they site no trigger tab safety being the problem. Ok so which is it? Did it spontaneously fire or was the trigger pulled. Also doesn't Sig offer the 320 in both a safety and non safety version? Also why aren't NDs happening left and right at the Sig Academy? I've been there many times and never heard of or saw anyone have an ND which seems odd because their class loaner guns are pretty beat to shit and used every day. ETA I do believe the P320 is far less forgiving of stupid than a Glock, and that’s definitely saying something. |
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