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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:34:16 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Army and Navy both have large blackhawk fleets, why is it a waste to have commonality? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Straight from Scott Donnelly's mouth, the RFP was a rigged game to justify buying Blackhawks and nothing else, and Bell wasn't going to play. They should buy 412s and be done with it. The whole program is a BS excuse to waste money. The Army and Navy both have large blackhawk fleets, why is it a waste to have commonality? |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:36:11 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These are also going to provide lift for the response teams, correct? Seems like the blackhawk would be a good fit for that mission. Is it a matter of having multiple types of helicopters? what are they planning to respond to? Wait, don't tell me. Whatever the imagination can dream up. the point is with aircraft there are an endless series of compromises that are inherently expensive in a way ground vehicles don't suffer. specialization in aircraft is worth the additional cost of more airframes. a 10K per hour aircraft versus a 5K per hour aircraft over 600 hours and 100 airframes in 20 years adds up very, very quickly. there comes a point where procuring for a scenario that has never occurred in 50 years, and, if it did occur would not be catastrophic anyway is just fucking stupid. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:42:19 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We all realize the USMC is going to waste money on stupid shit just to be different. I was wanting additional info on why the USAF would be better off with bell as suggested by the poster I responded to. I'm feeling a UCP joke coming on. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:48:28 AM EDT
[#4]
every service that integrated their logo into their camouflage pattern so no one else could use it please raise your hand.
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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:52:44 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Blackhawks don't have parts interchangeability with Cobras. They kept on keeping on with it since Congress told them to fuck off when they asked for Apaches. Twice. People conveniently forget that. Does the M4 share some parts commonality with the M9? They should have required the F35 share some common parts with the Cobra too. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:54:00 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
every service that integrated their logo into their camouflage pattern so no one else could use it please raise your hand. Last I checked most folks have two legs and wear their pants the same. Don't get salty just because MARPAT comes with more room in the crotch than you're used to. 
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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:57:10 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The mission is low importance and low risk and doesn't justify the giant cost of buying combat helicopters just to be able to claim commonality of expensive spare parts. Maybe they should put out an RFP for a fleet of self driving 15 passenger vans. It would be smarter that anything else suggested so far. For an airborne fire team? |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:57:20 AM EDT
[#8]
AH-6 anyone?
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Posted: 3/3/2017 12:02:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AH-6 anyone? I wouldn't want to be on the bench during the winter in NODAK |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 12:17:46 PM EDT
[#10]
They are knocking on 50 years old. Just replaced the fucking things. We are already standardized on the UH-60 type platform. Wtf is the problem?
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Posted: 3/3/2017 12:22:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are knocking on 50 years old. Just replaced the fucking things. We are already standardized on the UH-60 type platform. Wtf is the problem? procurement and operating cost. Compare the S-76 procurement and operating cost to the S-70. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 12:56:06 PM EDT
[#12]
If I were in charge...
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Posted: 3/3/2017 1:53:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The RFP is actually damn near impossible to do with an off the shelf helicopter. They want to carry 6 pax to a pretty significant distance, in terrible weather, lots of other details that are hard to meet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Couldn't you fill this role with a simple Jetranger or similar? How much capability do you need to circle a hole in the midwest? The RFP is actually damn near impossible to do with an off the shelf helicopter. They want to carry 6 pax to a pretty significant distance, in terrible weather, lots of other details that are hard to meet. Pick something already in US military service and get on with life. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:00:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For an airborne fire team? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The mission is low importance and low risk and doesn't justify the giant cost of buying combat helicopters just to be able to claim commonality of expensive spare parts. Maybe they should put out an RFP for a fleet of self driving 15 passenger vans. It would be smarter that anything else suggested so far. For an airborne fire team? #FakeRequirements |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:01:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These helicopters will never be used to ferry an airborne fire team to a silo to defend it from attackers. #FakeRequirements Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The mission is low importance and low risk and doesn't justify the giant cost of buying combat helicopters just to be able to claim commonality of expensive spare parts. Maybe they should put out an RFP for a fleet of self driving 15 passenger vans. It would be smarter that anything else suggested so far. For an airborne fire team? #FakeRequirements Defending nuclear weapons is a fake requirement. Interesting. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:10:57 PM EDT
[#16]
So why not replace the Hueys with more Hueys, Arent they still in production? Thats a cheap operator too right?
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:11:42 PM EDT
[#17]
why not just use Ospreys. Faster, carries everyone you'd need, all ready in the inventory so spares and maintenance are known quantities
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:17:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These helicopters will never be used to ferry an airborne fire team to a silo to defend it from attackers. #FakeRequirements Sorry, I've been out for a bit, but when I did nuke security at FE Warren, some convoy movements required an airborne fire team. Has that changed? Silos aren't defended by fire teams either, that was ART's and SRT's. But hey you have all the answers. "15 in 5". 
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:26:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If only the Boeing company had proposed a wonderful replacement for the Pavehawk, that every single Pavehawk pilot I know wanted to fly.. Quote HistoryQuoted:
If only the Boeing company had proposed a wonderful replacement for the Pavehawk, that every single Pavehawk pilot I know wanted to fly.. Yup, I came in as a Gunner when the Air Force assumed we were get 47's. Then that fell apart. Quoted:
Everyone has to have their first dust landing and deployment sometime... Its why we crew mix to mitigate risk. Exactly. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:29:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These helicopters will never be used to ferry an airborne fire team to a silo to defend it from attackers. #FakeRequirements Nothing you wrote is accurate. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:48:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Defending nuclear weapons is a fake requirement. Interesting. Not what he said. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 2:58:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, I've been out for a bit, but when I did nuke security at FE Warren, some convoy movements required an airborne fire team. Has that changed? Silos aren't defended by fire teams either, that was ART's and SRT's. But hey you have all the answers. "15 in 5". I did camper and maintenance escort security along with a couple convoys while at Whiteman. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:04:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
every service that integrated their logo into their camouflage pattern so no one else could use it please raise your hand. That said, I think that the new Navy camo pattern is MARPAT with the EGA replaced. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:05:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Huey's are still in use!?!?
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:08:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The other services just went the route of making camo patterns that were either so ugly or ineffective that no one else wanted to use them. That said, I think that the new Navy camo pattern is MARPAT with the EGA replaced. seems that way. I'm sure someone, somewhere will identify a difference. Hope so, in case of future lawsuits. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:13:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Defending nuclear weapons is a fake requirement. Interesting. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:14:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I were in charge... <a href="http://www.airrecognition.com/images/stories/north_america/united-states/helicopter/ch-47f_chinook/CH-47F_Chinook_transport_helicopter_Boeing_United_States_aviation_defence_industry_military_technology_640_001.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.airrecognition.com/images/stories/north_america/united-states/helicopter/ch-47f_chinook/CH-47F_Chinook_transport_helicopter_Boeing_United_States_aviation_defence_industry_military_technology_640_001.jpg</a> There's a reason you're not.... |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:15:15 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nothing you wrote is accurate. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:19:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Defending nuclear weapons is a real requirement. Having a helo to carry a QRF to a silo to fight off invaders trying to bust down the front door is a fantasy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Defending nuclear weapons is a fake requirement. Interesting. You might be right, but then maybe the reason it's a fantasy is because we have a helo to carry a QRF to a silo to fight off invaders. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:21:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Link to a list of armed assaults against CONUS missile solos? Repelled by airborne fire team or not, I'll take either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nothing you wrote is accurate. Link to a list of nuclear attacks against CONUS? Retaliated against with ICBMs or not, I'll take either. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:22:44 PM EDT
[#31]
I love the hueys .
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:23:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These helicopters will never be used to ferry an airborne fire team to a silo to defend it from attackers. #FakeRequirements Oh and... STURGIS, S.D. (AP) _ The Air Force on Friday convened a special board of officers from the Strategic Air Command to investigate the crash of a UH-1 Huey helicopter that killed five people and critically injured a sixth. The helicopter, which was providing security for a missile maintenance convoy, crashed shortly after 3 p.m. Thursday in a field northwest of Bear Butte, about five miles northeast of Sturgis. The helicopter was providing security for missile maintenance activity,'' said an Air Force spokesman from Ellsworth Air Force Base. ''We can neither confirm nor deny the presence of any nuclear weapons. That's Air Force policy. It's normal to provide such security, the spokesman said, adding that the Air Force does not discuss specifics of its Minuteman missile system.'' http://www.rotorheadsrus.us/documents/uh_1_ellsworth_afb__1986.html and PASSAIC, Mo., June 11— An Air Force helicopter escorting a military convoy crashed and burned in a muddy farm field today, killing all six persons aboard, the authorities said. The UH-1 helicopter went down about 30 miles south of Kansas City at 9:30 A.M. and was still burning three hours later, said Maj. Helen Wright, chief public affairs officer at Whiteman Air Force Base. Ammunition was exploding aboard the plane, according to a highway patrolman, and Major Wright said it had been carried by four security policemen. The other two persons aboard the helicopter were pilots, Major Wright said. It was more than seven hours after the crash before military personnel could remove the bodies. The helicopter was from Detachment 9 of the 37th Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Squadron at Whiteman. The victims' names were withheld pending notification of relatives. The helicopter had reportedly radioed minutes before the crash that it was in trouble. It had been escorting a missile convoy to one of the Minuteman missile silos ringing the Kansas City area, Major Wright said. http://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/12/us/around-the-nation-6-die-in-missouri-crash-of-air-force-helicopter.html "#FakeActualKnowledge" |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:25:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Defending nuclear weapons is a real requirement. Having a helo to carry a QRF to a silo to fight off invaders trying to bust down the front door is a fantasy. You base that observation off of actual knowledge? Have you done an LF recapture exercise? |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:27:44 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The other services just went the route of making camo patterns that were either so ugly or ineffective that no one else wanted to use them. That said, I think that the new Navy camo pattern is MARPAT with the EGA replaced. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
every service that integrated their logo into their camouflage pattern so no one else could use it please raise your hand. That said, I think that the new Navy camo pattern is MARPAT with the EGA replaced. Everybody used BDUs until the Marines went to MARPAT in 2001. The Army didn't start transitioning until 2005, the Air Force until 2007, and the Navy until 2009. Claiming it was other services' fault seems tough. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:28:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Defending nuclear weapons is a real requirement. Having a helo to carry a QRF to a silo to fight off invaders trying to bust down the front door is a fantasy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Defending nuclear weapons is a fake requirement. Interesting. So...you just going to have them take a van? ETA: better yet, Uber. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:28:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Link to a list of armed assaults against CONUS missile solos? Repelled by airborne fire team or not, I'll take either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nothing you wrote is accurate. It's going to be classified anyway. Maybe we'll get some recipes, though.
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:30:29 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did somebody say gu, gu, gu, ghost??? haha, as someone who regularly says "rut-roh", this made me literally lol. 
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:33:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistorySkids are for kids! |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:34:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's wrong with buying Bell 412s off the shelf ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Air Force is fucking retarded. N model Huyeys. And they're bitching! The rest of the world use Y-model 4-blade birds now. Fucking buy that. What's wrong with buying Bell 412s off the shelf ? |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:36:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Trade the Army something for a few UH-72s. Job jobbed.
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:38:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh and... STURGIS, S.D. (AP) _ The Air Force on Friday convened a special board of officers from the Strategic Air Command to investigate the crash of a UH-1 Huey helicopter that killed five people and critically injured a sixth. The helicopter, which was providing security for a missile maintenance convoy, crashed shortly after 3 p.m. Thursday in a field northwest of Bear Butte, about five miles northeast of Sturgis. The helicopter was providing security for missile maintenance activity,'' said an Air Force spokesman from Ellsworth Air Force Base. ''We can neither confirm nor deny the presence of any nuclear weapons. That's Air Force policy. It's normal to provide such security, the spokesman said, adding that the Air Force does not discuss specifics of its Minuteman missile system.'' http://www.rotorheadsrus.us/documents/uh_1_ellsworth_afb__1986.html and PASSAIC, Mo., June 11— An Air Force helicopter escorting a military convoy crashed and burned in a muddy farm field today, killing all six persons aboard, the authorities said. The UH-1 helicopter went down about 30 miles south of Kansas City at 9:30 A.M. and was still burning three hours later, said Maj. Helen Wright, chief public affairs officer at Whiteman Air Force Base. Ammunition was exploding aboard the plane, according to a highway patrolman, and Major Wright said it had been carried by four security policemen. The other two persons aboard the helicopter were pilots, Major Wright said. It was more than seven hours after the crash before military personnel could remove the bodies. The helicopter was from Detachment 9 of the 37th Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Squadron at Whiteman. The victims' names were withheld pending notification of relatives. The helicopter had reportedly radioed minutes before the crash that it was in trouble. It had been escorting a missile convoy to one of the Minuteman missile silos ringing the Kansas City area, Major Wright said. http://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/12/us/around-the-nation-6-die-in-missouri-crash-of-air-force-helicopter.html "#FakeActualKnowledge" with respect, none of that has to do with his point. the convoy wasn't under attack from anything. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:41:04 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If only the Boeing company had proposed a wonderful replacement for the Pavehawk, that every single Pavehawk pilot I know wanted to fly.. You talking about this? 
It seems like a reasonable submission but I don't know much about that particular platform. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:43:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Link to a list of armed assaults against CONUS missile solos? Repelled by airborne fire team or not, I'll take either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nothing you wrote is accurate. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:45:41 PM EDT
[#44]
The only safe way to move nuclear weapons is to launch them.
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:46:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everybody used BDUs until the Marines went to MARPAT in 2001. The Army didn't start transitioning until 2005, the Air Force until 2007, and the Navy until 2009. Claiming it was other services' fault seems tough. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
every service that integrated their logo into their camouflage pattern so no one else could use it please raise your hand. That said, I think that the new Navy camo pattern is MARPAT with the EGA replaced. Everybody used BDUs until the Marines went to MARPAT in 2001. The Army didn't start transitioning until 2005, the Air Force until 2007, and the Navy until 2009. Claiming it was other services' fault seems tough. I said that no one would want to use any of the other services' patterns. The Army's doesn't work, the Navy's is designed to hide paint spills, and the USAF's, well, at least they rejected the tiger stripe pattern they considered. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:58:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You talking about this? https://s3.amazonaws.com/filecache.drivetheweb.com/mr5mr_boeing/93476/MH-139_D4s-185-med-res.jpg It seems like a reasonable submission but I don't know much about that particular platform. What is that? |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 5:40:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
with respect, none of that has to do with his point. the convoy wasn't under attack from anything. Newer guys can chime in, but helicopters were routinely used for convoys. You're moving a convoy up to what use to be 120 miles base (not certain which sites have been taken off line). It looks like several years ago they added TRF capability as well. As you know DOD and DOE drive the requirements, including security. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 5:51:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
every service that integrated their logo into their camouflage pattern so no one else could use it please raise your hand. Coast guard is sliding our hands into our pockets. Yeah we have emblems on our blue ODU's but our guys overseas wear COTS multicam Edit: we also have a LONG history of stealing other service's uniforms to save money. See: Air Force dress uniforms |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 6:19:57 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You talking about this? https://s3.amazonaws.com/filecache.drivetheweb.com/mr5mr_boeing/93476/MH-139_D4s-185-med-res.jpg It seems like a reasonable submission but I don't know much about that particular platform. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If only the Boeing company had proposed a wonderful replacement for the Pavehawk, that every single Pavehawk pilot I know wanted to fly.. You talking about this? https://s3.amazonaws.com/filecache.drivetheweb.com/mr5mr_boeing/93476/MH-139_D4s-185-med-res.jpg It seems like a reasonable submission but I don't know much about that particular platform. No he is taking about the HH-47. Lol, we need a heavy lift tandem rotor helicopter to do personnel recovery. As soon as the army starts using them for dust offs that will start to make sense. Folding a -47 to stuff in a C-17 is a fucking nightmare compared to an H-60. We transport our rescue heloes by air a lot more often than the Army does their trash haulers. The 47 is also the loudest damn rotorcraft in the .mil, nothing like announcing to the world that you are inbound ten minutes before you arrive. The EH-101 or S-92 would make a ton more sense, but for the sake of commonality the H-60M based heli we are buying makes the most sense, even if the cabin is too small. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 6:34:40 PM EDT
[#50]
I just spent a deployment doing PR and casevac in a 47. We had to do it because the USAF couldn't. We replaced a ERQS and then an ERQS replaced us. I am very familiar with the operation that PJs and Pavehawks do.
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