[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Someone school me on backfeeding or pig tailing a generator back into the house. (Page 10 of 13)
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Maybe we should have someone do a poll to see how many utility lineman pay an electrician to set up their own system via transfer switch and UL listed generator inlets/cords vs. throwing the main and a suicide cord to a regular 220 outlet.
For the record both of my panels have manual interlocks but only 1 has a suicide cord. I'm pretty sure our local co-op posted a Facebook post reminding people to throw the main before connecting a generator to their panel in some fashion because they know 98% of people in my area don't have NEC transfer switch installations. But I'm back on utility power as of 12:30 today! |
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Maybe we should have someone do a poll to see how many utility lineman pay an electrician to set up their own system via transfer switch and UL listed generator inlets/cords vs. throwing the main and a suicide cord to a regular 220 outlet. For the record both of my panels have manual interlocks but only 1 has a suicide cord. I'm pretty sure our local co-op posted a Facebook post reminding people to throw the main before connecting a generator to their panel in some fashion because they know 98% of people in my area don't have NEC transfer switch installations. But I'm back on utility power as of 12:30 today! Attached File add a gen plug in, reinstall the meter had call it a day. I have one in my attic but I haven't been able to find a way to pull the meter without the utility company having a shitfit because you have to have a licensed electrician sign the paperwork. |
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OK. you should have added "the source should be authoritative and not some bullshit internet chat room crap." http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm ... Facts In July 2005, Pike sent a crew to Flomaton, Alabama, after the Gulf Coast area had been damaged by a hurricane. Alabama Power Company contracted Pike to assist with repairing downed power lines and broken poles. Pike’s crew comprised six workers supervised by foreman and lineman Richard Green. The crew traveled to Flomaton on July 11 and spent the night. At 7:00 a.m. on July 12, Green and Pike linemen Ronnie Adams and Robert Mitchell met with employees from Alabama Power Company to discuss the repair work (Tr. 23-25). Green and Adams were Class A lineman. Mitchell was a Class C lineman (at the time of the hearing, he was a Class B lineman) (Tr. 56-58). An Alabama Power Company representative warned Pike’s employees to be on the lookout for portable generators. Homeowners often use portable generators as a temporary energy source when storms knock out power lines. If the homeowner hooks up the generator directly to the house’s circuit (rather than using it to power a single appliance), energy from the generator could “backfeed” from the house and re-energize the power lines (Tr. 26-27). After meeting with Alabama Power Company, Green held a meeting with the six Pike employees. He explained the work to be done and divided the men into two crews: Mitchell worked with Ryan Chamberlain and Curtis Montgomery, and Adams worked with groundman Matthew Snow and equipment operator Todd Casey (Tr. 39, 66). Green assigned Adams’s crew to replace a damaged pole and to re-hang the four lines on a three-phase tap line on Jackson Street (Tr. 37-39). Green worked with Adams’s crew until they started setting the new pole, around noon. Then Green left to work with Mitchell’s crew (Tr. 72-73). Pike was treating the power lines as de-energized because Alabama Power Company had opened the switches inside the substation (which prevented the circuit from being completed and energizing the lines). At the pole directly outside the substation designated as Y5307 on Wilkerson Street, Pike opened the set of switches on the pole, flagged, tagged, and grounded them. Pike also removed the jumpers to the phases from the switches at pole Y5307 (Exh. C-5). Green testified Pike did this despite the open switches in the substation just a few feet away “as an extra layer of protection” (Tr. 32). Also, Pike opened the set of switches and flagged, tagged, and grounded them at a pole designated as Y7929 on Ringold Street (Tr. 30-32). When operating normally, the three-phase line is energized at 7,220 volts, phase to ground (Exh. J-1; Tr. 27). The two poles (Y5307 and Y7929) were on the same power distribution line. Between these two poles, a tap power line ran down Jackson Street and terminated at a dead-end pole. The transformer located on the dead-end pole was not opened, tagged, flagged and grounded. After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day. Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006. ... ps by the way, it's "moot", not "mute". |
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You fail to point out that Pike was found negligent, not the homeowner. Quoted:
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OK. you should have added "the source should be authoritative and not some bullshit internet chat room crap." http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm ... Facts In July 2005, Pike sent a crew to Flomaton, Alabama, after the Gulf Coast area had been damaged by a hurricane. Alabama Power Company contracted Pike to assist with repairing downed power lines and broken poles. Pike’s crew comprised six workers supervised by foreman and lineman Richard Green. The crew traveled to Flomaton on July 11 and spent the night. At 7:00 a.m. on July 12, Green and Pike linemen Ronnie Adams and Robert Mitchell met with employees from Alabama Power Company to discuss the repair work (Tr. 23-25). Green and Adams were Class A lineman. Mitchell was a Class C lineman (at the time of the hearing, he was a Class B lineman) (Tr. 56-58). An Alabama Power Company representative warned Pike’s employees to be on the lookout for portable generators. Homeowners often use portable generators as a temporary energy source when storms knock out power lines. If the homeowner hooks up the generator directly to the house’s circuit (rather than using it to power a single appliance), energy from the generator could “backfeed” from the house and re-energize the power lines (Tr. 26-27). After meeting with Alabama Power Company, Green held a meeting with the six Pike employees. He explained the work to be done and divided the men into two crews: Mitchell worked with Ryan Chamberlain and Curtis Montgomery, and Adams worked with groundman Matthew Snow and equipment operator Todd Casey (Tr. 39, 66). Green assigned Adams’s crew to replace a damaged pole and to re-hang the four lines on a three-phase tap line on Jackson Street (Tr. 37-39). Green worked with Adams’s crew until they started setting the new pole, around noon. Then Green left to work with Mitchell’s crew (Tr. 72-73). Pike was treating the power lines as de-energized because Alabama Power Company had opened the switches inside the substation (which prevented the circuit from being completed and energizing the lines). At the pole directly outside the substation designated as Y5307 on Wilkerson Street, Pike opened the set of switches on the pole, flagged, tagged, and grounded them. Pike also removed the jumpers to the phases from the switches at pole Y5307 (Exh. C-5). Green testified Pike did this despite the open switches in the substation just a few feet away “as an extra layer of protection” (Tr. 32). Also, Pike opened the set of switches and flagged, tagged, and grounded them at a pole designated as Y7929 on Ringold Street (Tr. 30-32). When operating normally, the three-phase line is energized at 7,220 volts, phase to ground (Exh. J-1; Tr. 27). The two poles (Y5307 and Y7929) were on the same power distribution line. Between these two poles, a tap power line ran down Jackson Street and terminated at a dead-end pole. The transformer located on the dead-end pole was not opened, tagged, flagged and grounded. After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day. Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006. ... ps by the way, it's "moot", not "mute". Please follow along. |
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@MrGoodkat So you got called out on pure bull shit, and instead of owning it and admitting you are wrong, you double down on your derp. I have said some dumb stuff before and got called on it, at least I was man enough to admit I was wrong or mixed up. It also made me want to learn why I was wrong, I chose to stop living in ignorance. So explain to everyone why would people that know what they are talking about agree something is safe from a guy- you- that is clearly... uhm.... not mentally able to understand a simple service drop and its component interactions even when explained to them? That is rich! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/193427/8a202184c338637c55139ba665ce60e1c5ced87cf032df9e1131b7b21b7e31d6-308298.JPG  
I just looked back on page one and found this little gem: Attached File This guy has the same setup as me, except he has has a pole building instead of a detached stick built garage. Maybe the poles sunk into the ground act as a ground sending the evil rogue generator electrons in the soil if he forgets to pull his disconnect? Is that the difference? You can't make this shit up. 
GD gonna GD. |
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I just looked back on page one and found this little gem: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/152343/Screenshot_2017-09-15-17-20-37-308454.JPG This guy has the same setup as me, except he has has a pole building instead of a detached stick built garage. Maybe the poles sunk into the ground act as a ground sending the evil rogue generator electrons in the soil if he forgets to pull his disconnect? Is that the difference? You can't make this shit up.
GD gonna GD. 
Also, I was willing to let this go after you admitted you "made a mistake" in terminology. But now it appears you are in a blind rage since your ignorance of electricity has been clearly demonstrated, overs and over again. Seriously, just be a man about this. It's kinda sad seeing you struggle so. 
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| And before you go and get your panties in a knot, if the poster was referring to inverting his fuse holder as flipping something, instead of actually flipping the handle on a transfer switch, I apologize for the assumption and still stand by the statement that an interlock, or transfer switch, are the safest methods to backfeed a home with a generator. |
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30A Inlet: $50 10' 30A cord: $50 (20' is $75) Interlock: $50 (depends on the brand, this could go up to $150 for a 3rd party brand). 2-pole breaker: $11-18 All of those things can be purchased from Amazon. Then you go to Home Depot or Lowes for a few connectors, some 10-3 romex, silicone to seal the inlet, and that's just about it. I install at least 2 of these a week. I used to do 10 after Sandy. It's easy and cheap and it will raise the value of your house instead of being illegal like a suicide cord system. Can you give a general idea what it would cost to install the interlock and outside connection? |
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@romanack Can you give a general idea what it would cost to install the interlock and outside connection? With the inlet on the opposite side of the wall you are looking at 2 hours of work onsite, so you could expect to pay whatever the electrician in your area charge times about 3 hours. |
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If anyone with a generator is suspect and prevents linemen from working, then any code is irrelevant since you don't have a way to ensure that people are following it. You also don't have a way to ensure a solar system is installed correctly with the same results. Quoted:
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Ban generators, for the linemen. That's the only way to ensure that someone doesn't do something stupid. Generators kill. You also don't have a way to ensure a solar system is installed correctly with the same results. |
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Is there any reason you can't place the generator inlet on the inside wall of your garage? I will only ever place my generator (3100W inverter) in my backyard, using a 30ft cord..... for reduced noise signature and security.
Are there any rules about where it must be placed in relation to the breaker panel? As in, can it be placed directly above or below the main panel? |
| What's the scoop on GFI/GFCI and generators? I know some models have it built in but am not sure the ramifications for one without it. Since generators are commonly used in normal GFI-appropriate locations (outdoors, campgrounds, patios, etc) it seems it would be called for, but generators with it built in seem to be the exception. |
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Is there any reason you can't place the generator inlet on the inside wall of your garage? I will only ever place my generator (3100W inverter) in my backyard, using a 30ft cord..... for reduced noise signature and security. Are there any rules about where it must be placed in relation to the breaker panel? As in, can it be placed directly above or below the main panel? I recommend to my customers it being put outside so that they can close the garage door without damaging the cord. Why do you want it inside the garage? |
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What's the scoop on GFI/GFCI and generators? I know some models have it built in but am not sure the ramifications for one without it. Since generators are commonly used in normal GFI-appropriate locations (outdoors, campgrounds, patios, etc) it seems it would be called for, but generators with it built in seem to be the exception. |
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Every single thing you do every day carries some level of risk, whether it's handling a gun or electricity. If you understand what you are doing and methodical in your approach, you can do a lot to mitigate this risk. Pulling a main fuse on the power pole is not "dropping a clip" and "point the gun at your son and pulling the trigger ." This is a foolish and absolutely ludicrous analogy, and you know it. I hope you put a meter on an outlet before replacing it. You check the chamber multiple times before disassembling a firearm. You make sure your power is disconnected before hooking up a generator. Nobody is saying there is zero risk involved. Much like handling a firearm, if you are confident and understand the function and possible dangers, being methodical in your approach can go a long way to reduce risk to levels deemed acceptable to yourself or others. Certainly many, many, many more people have been killed handling firearms or working in hot panels (both deemed OK in this thread) than by homeowner generators. Nobody here is saying the OP or anyone else who doesn't fully understand home wiring should do this. In my case, I would argue that pulling that main fuse on my power pole is safer than a transfer switch and certainly safer than an interlock. You said I could have forgotten to pull the fuse. You can certainly forget to flip a breaker and use an interlock as well. Some people here say breakers can fail. I'm not going to argue if that is true or not, but physically removing the fuse and seeing the air gap between the lugs is the most positive way to make sure power is disconnected that I can realistically imagine. I could run a chain through the handle of that fuse carrier and padlock it to my generator if I wanted to. 
And furthermore, he makes repeated allegations that he runs a racket that happens to include selling the safety equipment to isolate home electrical panels from main power. NJ racketeer may actually be a licensed contractor, or not, but he sure seems ready to sell his services. . . . without which. . . .none of us otherwise responsible, educated, men in Free States could be trusted to power our homes during power outages. Ignoring any and all assurances we were doing safely and successfully before he re-registered an account here on arfcom because - - trust issues. NO WAY can in his NJ world view can anyone be trusted to walk across a room and flip a switch. Guys, please do not waste your time trying to talk sense with this poster. He reeks of snob & condescending comments, and for sure, he's not going to ever trust any of us men from the states west to act responsibly. Ever. So just remember to hold him to the same standards in the future. 
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Lol, this is awesome 
This browning guy is whining because I wiped the floor with him earlier and the only thing he could come up with is to say that safe and code compliant electrical work is a "racket".
Notice how he couldn't come up with an intelligent argument against what I have said, so he spent his entire post citing New Jersey gun law 
Pissy little girl. |
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Man you are right in every way. |
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Lol, this is awesome
This browning guy is whining because I wiped the floor with him earlier and the only thing he could come up with is to say that safe and code compliant electrical work is a "racket".
Pissy little girl. While you're full of piss & vinegar, regale us with your NJ-approved semi-auto rifle collection. If any. Got any guns at all that weren't accidentally left with the family 45 years ago? Did your hands tremble to hold them? WTF are you doing here anyway?? Trying to sell you services? Would like to see you try to do that here in typical NJ fashion. Between NJ attitude, and trying to run a racket here, you won't last long. It will be an amusing, albeit short episode. 
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How about you put up or shut up?
Show me one person that I tried to sell my service to and I will leave. If you can't, then you leave. Deal? I've offer free expert advice. You have done nothing but make a fool out of yourself. So I challenge you to stand behind your words. Are you a man or mouse? Deal? |
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Figured as much, glad I passed on his services. Quoted:
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Good way to kill a lineman. Get your stuff set up correctly before an emergency with a transfer switch or interlock and be safe about it. Quoted:
Lineman dies and you get arrested. |
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The only thing wiped was your rear end, NJ. You did nothing to me, Troll. While you're full of piss & vinegar, regale us with your NJ-approved semi-auto rifle collection. If any. Got any guns at all that weren't accidentally left with the family 45 years ago? Did your hands tremble to hold them? WTF are you doing here anyway?? Trying to sell you services? Would like to see you try to do that here in typical NJ fashion. Between NJ attitude, and trying to run a racket here, you won't last long. It will be an amusing, albeit short episode. |
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These guys are correct. However, you can run a generator to the house this way. Simply flip off the main breaker first, and you shouldn't kill anybody. Illegal? yep Dangerous? not as long as you kill the main breaker. Best answer is do it right/legal, it's not that expensive. I purchased a home that was wired for a generator on a sub-panel, requiring that you flip the main manually. It should be fine if I flip that main, but I would only run it that way if it was dire. I might rewire it so I can use a cheap lockout plate for the generator. Realistically, I'll just plug stuff into the generator as needed, and wait. 
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How about you put up or shut up? Show me one person that I tried to sell my service to and I will leave. If you can't, then you leave. Deal? I've offer free expert advice. You have done nothing but make a fool out of yourself. So I challenge you to stand behind your words. Are you a man or mouse? Deal? 
Now, I'm going to sit back now and wait for you to trip over your big mouth. Maybe not tonite, maybe not tomorrow, but soon. Arrogant types never last here. 
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What a coward.
You are so mad that you failed in an argument that you accuse me of illegal activity (racketeering) yet you are too small of a man to backup your words. You are the only troll here. The only thing you have in life is your join date and post count on an Internet forum. |
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What a coward. You are so mad that you failed in an argument that you accuse me of illegal activity (racketeering) yet you are too small of a man to backup your words. You are the only troll here. The only thing you have in life is your join date and post count on an Internet forum. |
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I'm with you... Not many men left in GD, when called out he could have just sacked up and admitted he was wrong. I guess he is good at making up fairy tales and lacks any knowledge of electricity, so he does have that going for him. Will he say that I am your second username here? Will he tell us more New Jersey gun law? Will he tell us yet again how long he has been a member. |
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I'm sure he will double down on his stupidity. I'm just not sure how. Will he say that I am your second username here? Will he tell us more New Jersey gun law? Will he tell us yet again how long he has been a member.
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Maybe he can show me the potential to earth on b phase of a high leg delta? He is such an expert after all, he should not be scared. 
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You can put the inlet anywhere you want, there is no code surrounding its location. The easiest place to put it is behind the panel on the outside wall. I recommend to my customers it being put outside so that they can close the garage door without damaging the cord. Why do you want it inside the garage? Quoted:
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Is there any reason you can't place the generator inlet on the inside wall of your garage? I will only ever place my generator (3100W inverter) in my backyard, using a 30ft cord..... for reduced noise signature and security. Are there any rules about where it must be placed in relation to the breaker panel? As in, can it be placed directly above or below the main panel? I recommend to my customers it being put outside so that they can close the garage door without damaging the cord. Why do you want it inside the garage? |
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Mainly, because it will be easier to install, and will have a shorter run to the backyard. There is no circumstance where I will ever place a generator on the opposite wall, it is totally unsecured, and right next to my neighbors house... this location is only a few feet from their home. I want it to be secure in my backyard behind my 8 foot board on board fence, which will make it much harder to detect, steal, or bother anyone else. Which is why I want the 30-35 ft cord. I would still recommend putting the inlet outside, even if it's right next to the garage door opening. One of the nice things about having an inlet is being able to seal up the house tight without cords coming in or worrying about damaging them. BTW, remember that a few feet of cord will be used on each end to go up to the generator and the inlet. So you might want to get a longer length. Here is a 40 footer than I commonly get for customers: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-PC3040/p1101.html |
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Since my main breaker is outside right by the meter could I have a plug installed right there? Or would it require running new wire through the house . A lot of outside disconnects have panel spaces for breakers and therefore can be used for this purpose. |
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I see. I would still recommend putting the inlet outside, even if it's right next to the garage door opening. One of the nice things about having an inlet is being able to seal up the house tight without cords coming in or worrying about damaging them. BTW, remember that a few feet of cord will be used on each end to go up to the generator and the inlet. So you might want to get a longer length. Here is a 40 footer than I commonly get for customers: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-PC3040/p1101.html Quoted:
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Mainly, because it will be easier to install, and will have a shorter run to the backyard. There is no circumstance where I will ever place a generator on the opposite wall, it is totally unsecured, and right next to my neighbors house... this location is only a few feet from their home. I want it to be secure in my backyard behind my 8 foot board on board fence, which will make it much harder to detect, steal, or bother anyone else. Which is why I want the 30-35 ft cord. I would still recommend putting the inlet outside, even if it's right next to the garage door opening. One of the nice things about having an inlet is being able to seal up the house tight without cords coming in or worrying about damaging them. BTW, remember that a few feet of cord will be used on each end to go up to the generator and the inlet. So you might want to get a longer length. Here is a 40 footer than I commonly get for customers: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-PC3040/p1101.html |
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Posting a picture is best. A lot of outside disconnects have panel spaces for breakers and therefore can be used for this purpose. |
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Nope, you won't be able to connect a generator to that disco. You're going to have to run wiring inside unless you want to change out that disco to one that will accept an interlock or just a straight up transfer switch.
Does your main panel have a main breaker in it? |
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This is seriously like arguing with a gun newb that keeping your finger on the trigger of a gun is ok to do and there is nothing wrong with pointing a gun at someone because you can control your finger and be sure not to pull the trigger. That's great advice and I have seen no one argue against it. However, your guns analogy is poor, and I bet you don't apply it when it comes to your guns. First of all, no one has in any way, shape or form advocated something as dangerous as pointing a firearm at anyone. Further more, to apply what you say about generators to firearms - you would have to advocate that everyone should have and keep a trigger lock on each of their firearms at all times, right up until the point where you point and shoot. My guess is, you don't. And remember, the issue is safety and preventing accidents - not how fast you can put your gun into action. If you do indeed keep a trigger lock on each of your firearms at all times, then my bad and you are consistent. If you don't, you aren't. |
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Criley, you are incorrect. My anology was very accurate.
You can point a gun at someone and not pull the trigger. Its safe, no one would be hurt. But you don't because you don't want to get into that bad habit, because one time you may make a mistake. It's the same thing with the generator. You can connect a generator and not backfeed the grid or shock yourself with the suicide cord. But you might make a mistake one time, and that mistake could be fatal. It's the exact same thing. We act like all guns are loaded in order to prevent us from making a mistake. The same should go for the generator connection, do the minimal effort to make sure you don't make the fatal mistake. And it's so easy to do that it's stupid to argue. Again I will point out that this is a place in which someone will be attacked by dozens of people if they post a picture of themselves with their finger on the trigger of a firearm, one that they have just checked to be sure it's empty. It's ok to rant and rave about perfect safety when it comes to guns, but professional advice for electrical safety is fought by a bunch of ignoramuses. |
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Criley, you are incorrect. My anology was very accurate. If not, you don't practice what you preach when it comes to firearms. You could take cheap, easy steps to insure that neither you, nor anyone else, could ever mistakenly put a finger on a trigger. You should have just simply kept your argument to: This is the best way to use a generator safely. Should have left the guns out of it. It actually undermines your position. Unless, of course, you actually keep trigger locks on all your guns at all times. |
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Your neutral and ground is also connected to your water pipe. Have you ever been electrocuted using the sink or shower? Quoted:
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Isn't the Neutral & Ground still tied in if you shut off your Main Breaker? Have you ever been electrocuted using the sink or shower? |
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So, do you have trigger locks on all your guns? I don't keep my guns in Fort Knox either, are you going to say that I don't practice what I preach because of that too? |
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Nope, you won't be able to connect a generator to that disco. You're going to have to run wiring inside unless you want to change out that disco to one that will accept an interlock or just a straight up transfer switch. Does your main panel have a main breaker in it? |
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I certainly will. Don't for one second think that anything you said here makes any sense whatsoever. All you have done is defended dangerous practice. Is English your first language? The fact that you use lousy analogies to prove a point is your problem, and yours alone. |
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I have defended dangerous practice? Is English your first language? The fact that you use lousy analogies to prove a point is your problem, and yours alone. |
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How in the hell this thread is still going is beyond me.
Dont be a cheapass..buy the appropriate equipment, have a professional install it if your IQ isnt high enough..hook up your gen and test to see if you are backfeeding if you're still worried. How fucking hard do you have to make it, really?? |