This
plus star wars no transporters and crappy shields vs fleets of ships with better shields and weapons.

The law of diminishing returns is a bitch.

You could at least get the quote right

Lucas thought it sounded cool... and that's it. The insane inconsistencies in Star Wars aren't even funny. You have 6 total movies Vs. how many hundreds of episodes and movies? yet Star Wars has far more inconsistencies

The original trilogy is fun... but all the stupid fucking expanded universe shit is nothing more than a bunch of die hard fans trying to save a mediocre story.

Good thing no one in Star Wars uses lasers.





Star Wars has cloaks.  They are admittedly not as good as Klingon or Romulan cloaks as you can't see out of them yourself if you're using one... But the federation doesn't have cloaks so it doesn't matter.





The only weapon that stands a chance against Star Wars ships shields and armor which are orders of magnitude more powerful and protective than trek shields and armor is the sun destroying torpedo in Generations.  And again the Federation doesn't have that so it doesn't matter.  Any ships weapons including a warpcore breach explosion would be shrugged off by a Star Destroyers shields.





 

This part seems to be the most overlooked in the discussion.

For a good numbers and willingness to wage war reference, you're trying to throw US College science profs into a war vs Every child soldier in Africa over the last 50 years.

Sure, the Profs are smarter and might have better tech.  That doesn't mean they stand a fucking chance.

It's a space ship AND a time machine and it's controlled by a Time Lord that wiped 2 of the most powerful armies in existence out of existence in the time war.

Grand Unfied Meme of Nerds

Assuming you could beam through a Star Destroyer's hull, Federation wins.  Beam quantum torp next to fusion core & blammo.

What about the Star Destroyers shields?  We've seen that transporters don't work through shields and the Star Destroyer has much much stronger shields than anything Star Trek.
 

It's a one-sided fucking massacre in favor of the Empire.

The Federation has a few hundred capital ships.

During its production run, the Republic and Empire built twenty-five thousand Imperator-class Star Destroyers. That's just one kind of ship.

Each Star Destroyer mounts multiple turbolaser and ion cannon batteries, carry large numbers of storm troopers, armor, artillery, and the means to deploy them, along with a wing of fighters.

The flagship of the federation fleet has a couple of phaser arrays, two (or three?) photon torpedo launchers, one captain's yacht, a handful of shuttlecraft, and a bunch of limp-wristed security therapists who couldn't fight their way out of a wet shit-sack.

Transporters don't work properly through shields, through weird atmospheres, or if you look at them funny.

Turbolasers are obviously not actually "lasers", as they do not function in a fashion which resembles a laser in any way. Typical turbolasers can atomize moderately large asteroids in a single shot -- the Enterprise-D's full complement of photon torpedoes couldn't shatter one hollow asteroid. Couldn't even cut into it.

Starfleet lacks even the most bone-basic capacity for fighting on the ground - they have never been shown to have decent crew-served weapons, sensible small arms, any kind of artillery or armor, or even tactics that make sense. Stormtroopers with blasters and e-webs and armor and artillery and aircraft would eat Starfleet for lunch.

Powerful hyperdrives allow ships to travel from the galactic rim (Tattooine, for instance) to the core worlds (Alderaan) in a matter of hours or days (another example: Naboo to Tattooine to Coruscant). At continuous maximum warp (a technical impossibility and also a violation of the galactic speed limit or whatever), it would've taken the Voyager most of a century to get back to their quadrant of the galaxy. Whatever excuses you wish to make for the Federation's numerous inadequacies, you can't get around this one. The Empire will engage Federation ships and personnel in battle at the times and places exclusively of their choosing. They have dozens of times as many ships as the Federation. An entire flotilla of Star Destroyers could drop out of hyperspace, exterminate every living thing on Earth from orbit, and then peace the fuck out before Starfleet could scratch its ass twice.

ETA: Also, let's be clear, I adore Star Trek.

who cares,they both suck

Infidel!

Are you kidding?  Do you have any idea how much power is behind a two-handed punch?  Especially when delivered by an octogenarian....

But seriously, unless I see some more technical data on these superior shields of the Star Wars universe, which are apparently so ineffective that half of the fighter craft don't even bother outfitting them, it is Trek all of the way.  Q >> force.  Q IS the force.

naw not at all ,just above 12.

We clearly watched different movies

And what the fuck is this "TurboLaser"? some asinine made up fanboy shit

I can accept your MLP love, but this post right here is so wrong I'm thinking about blocking you...



(I'm not actually going to block you...but you're funny)

It may be that shield-generators don't scale down very well in star wars, so they're not worth it for TIE fighters that can be produced by the zillions (a standard ISD's complement is 72 of them). The ones mounted on starfighters don't seem to fare very well against turbolaser blasts (or normal laser cannon blasts, on a facing toward which their deflectors are not "set"), that's for sure, but capital ships have been seen several times showering one another with turbolaser fire and taking the hits on their shields.


Haha!

Don't forget -- the most fearsome infantry in the galaxy is a bunch of shrieking, wrinkle-headed psychopaths... with pistols and knives. Man, the Klingons were wily and cunning in TOS. In TNG they all turned into snarling neanderthal morons. Oh! And remember that one episode where the... it was either the Cardassians or the Romulans, but they were planning on invading some planet with three thousand soldiers.


To what are you referring?

"We count thirty Rebel ships, Lord Vader. But they're so small they're evading our turbo-lasers!" - A New Hope
Standard armament on capital ships and the gun emplacements on the Death Star. The poor traverse and elevation speed of the guns suggests to me that they're for shooting at capital ships and other shit what can't get out of the way.

ETA: The officer mentions turbolasers about 2:45 in. It's a weird video, but it's the one I found the fastest.


YOU'RE funny!

(Red) alot of you technical data, and production stats are nowhere in the movies. It's safe to say that a large portion of the Empires fleet were present at the battle over Endor. They knew the rebellion was coming and they brought in the fleet. So either they are really fucking stupid and underestimated the strength of the rebellion and left out a huge number of the fleet, or there just isn't the bazillin ships that the fans claim.

No sure how I missed the Turbolaser comment... I stand corrected.

What version of the empire are we comparing here? I'm going with 4, 5, and 6... now the power of the fleet at the end of 3 is drastically superior to the original trilogy. I'm not sure if there is some fan created BS explaining that shit, but I'm going with ongoing war has taken its toll on the empire. I'm still saying they lose.

True. I retract the 25,000 comment on the grounds that the Expanded Universe is laaaaaame.

The unit sent to follow up the leads on Hoth consisted of one Super Star Destroyer and no less than a further five ISDs.

It's hard to tell because most of the shots of the fleet from a distance are through the Millenium Falcon's windscreen, but it is absolutely certain that there's no fewer than half a dozen star destroyers and the Super Star Destroyer in the blocking fleet at Endor. They deploy dozens of TIE Interceptors and other fighters that are upon the rebel fleet seconds after they drop out of hyperspace.


One shot from the bridge of the SSD.

ETA3:

At least a dozen ISDs, possibly more than sixteen depending on what the really small ones might be.

Furthermore, the Imperial Navy has pan-galactic commitments and they deliberately had left the deathstar " relatively unprotected" to bait the rebels.

"With the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it is relatively unprotected." - Mon Mothma.

Borderline-suicidal hubris is very much a theme of the bad guys in Star Wars. Governor Tarkin in A New Hope; the Emperor in ROTJ; those fish-faced dipshits and darth maul in Phantom Menace; General Grievous, Count Dooku, and so on.

The Emperor gave orders for his fleets to deliberately not directly engage the rebel attack with the bulk of their forces. He wants to terrify the rebels and watch them squirm and die at the hands of his Death Penis-Substitute; he wants to awe Luke and turn him to the Dark Side while his friends are exterminated. He doesn't even consider the possibility of failure.

103 INT SUPER STAR DESTROYER - BRIDGE 103

Admiral Piett and two fleet commanders watch the battle at the huge window of the Super Star Destroyer bridge.

COMMANDER
We're in attack position now, sir.

PIETT
Hold here.

COMMANDER
We're not going to attack?

PIETT
I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping.


I'm going with 4, 5, 6, because they're the better ones. And there was only 20-something years between the end of 3 and the beginning of 4, during which time the forces opposed to the empire went from a galaxy-wide secessionist front to a scattered band of punk-asses who were perpetually just one battle away from obliteration.

Ah, it appears we have a grown ass man in the thread.

Its simple.

ST ships Picard Maneuver around any incoming blasts...if Han can defeat them with his sublight (and a lazy left turn) then any Federation ship can... then the computer targets the waves of unsheilded TIE fighters with phasers, taking them out 6 at a time. Then all Federation ships warp to within 5km of the SW ships and fly them like fighters along the legnth of the ships like The Alternate Universe Defiant did with that bigassed Klingon capital ship. Take out the engines and the ship isn't even an intergalactic Bismarck.  Beam some torpedoes in, phase cloak an old relic ship in with a bad warp core, whatever...boom, headshot.  

The tech is on ST's side. Size is on the SW's side with inferior weapons and fighters that are the space-faring Zero's of SciFi. The Maquis fighters could take them out without breaking a sweat.  Give ST a little credit...even when Picard was in charge, when you threaten humanity's existence the Prime Directive (Original, Temporal, Technological, or Morally defined) goes right out the window and you have an entire fleet of Kirks, Rikers, and Siskos armed by people like Sloan and the Admiral who was in charge of the phase-cloaked Pegasus.  ETA: how long before Section 31 captures a dozen droids and reprograms them to disperse airborne Quickening? Coruscant and key installations would be dead in a week.

Lets also remember that in a troop engagement, StormTroopers were anything but precise.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

X-1 Viper , SD 10, and YVH droids would own the ground war.

According to Wookiepedia the Executor class has a shield output of 3.8 × 10²⁶ Watts

The Daystorm Institute lists the shield capacity of an upgraded Sovereign Class starship(Enterprise-E) as 5,737,500 TeraJoules





Now I might be doing the math wrong but I think it translates into something like this



380,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 vs

5,737,500,000,000,000,000
Edit: WTF comes after trillion?

But is it effective against the phaser energy and photon/quantum torpedoes? A T80 tank has how many inches of admit that is defeated how easily by depleted uranium at 3000fps?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

i'm sorry .

Fuck it....one Corellian YT-1300 with a full load of mynocks could destroy the entire federation fleet.

Well a 1.5 kilogram matter/antimatter warhead(3 kg total fuel) has yield of about 63 megatons. A quantum torpedo with the same side warhead would have a 126 megaton yield.



Turbolaser have a higher output and ISDs have no problem withstanding constant bombardment.

This still ignores that the Empire was defeated by an unschooled bastard abandoned to his in-laws who made out with his kin and who lived in the desert and believed in magic and spent most of his time hanging out with weird old hermits.

All the Federation needs to do is send some Pakled dirt farmer to handle the Empire.  The Empire clearly sucks.

Again:





Ask Ben Bernanke.

Star Wars/Trek are both filled with effeminate pussies. Starship Troopers would fuck their worlds up. Hell, I'd take odds on Richard Thomas in Battle Beyond the Stars whipping Han and Kirk's asses.

Water under the bridge!

And yet seat belts, and circuit breakers seem to be beyond any advanced species in the star trek univerise. Join star fleet and get plasma burns to the face!

Shields that seem to go down every time they get into a battle.

Worf: captain they are shining bright lights at us and took down our shields

Wesley: Oh look my console is overloading....oh got hot plasma is burning my face-off

Diana: I sense hostility in them shooting at us

Data: 01010111010101 Sherlock holmes...010101 ....emotions...10100102

Laforge: I can't see shit....omg the core is gonna explode

Picard: Bla bla bla Shakespear...bla bla peaceful hippie crap....bla bla prime directive.

From the RPG's and the Star Trek guides: Star Wars. Star Wars weapons are orders of magnitude better, more powerful, and more plentiful then the Star Trek analogues. Star Wars can meet or beat light speed (ST got 0.99 speed of light at best). Star Wars has the force.


Also, I skipped all the nonsense super-weapons that came later.

3.8 × 10²⁶ Watts vs an asteroid































Erm... nope. This is why fansites are garbage for math. Fanwank garbage. If that 3.8 × 10²⁶ Watt number was even remotely correct, an ISD could fly through a damn planet and not even feel it. An asteroid field should have been a joke. But that's not what is seen on screen. On screen asteroids and Awings (about the size of a VW beetle) taking out Imperial bridges. You see ISD commanders taking extreme evasive maneuvers just to avoid sideswiping another ISD while chasing the falcon.

Uh huh...

I have a hard time believing the Federation would stand a chance against the empire.

All it takes is this guy to destroy the Empire.

One borg ship destroyed most of their fleet afterall.

The Feds would win because they would quickly form an alliance with the rebel alliance who whip the federation with no large ships and no supply chain.
Also transporters and shields. Sort of like Libya and Syria.

There are shields in Star Wars, why do you think the empire sent ground troops to hoth.



Alderaan had a planetary shield that only the death star could overwhelm.


Guess what happens when you try to beam someone through a shield.....the people die.

Let me start by saying that I don’t give a rat’s ass about what is in cartoons or books. What matters is what is shown in the movies and in the Star Trek TV shows. I’m ignoring them and going by what is on the screen. If some book says that a “turbolaser” had 100 times the energy output of Tsar Bomba then I’m ignoring it unless the weapon is actually that effective on screen.

I’m also going to ignore the Genesis Torpedo, a device that could destroy a planet easier than the Death Star could and it would fit conveniently into a shuttlecraft if necessary. It didn’t have to be carried around in a ship the size of Vesta. The reason is that it was a plot device for two movies and never appeared again. Likewise I’m ignoring things like beaming photon torpedoes since it is never done in the show, certainly not as a regular tactic.

Now let’s look at the overall strategic situation. The Empire is a galaxy spanning civilization... but it’s not our galaxy so that doesn’t tell us a lot. Look at the size of the massive senate chambers and guess how many member worlds there are? There must be like 500 of them, maybe even 1,000. And we know backwater worlds like Naboo get one of those flying disk things so it’s pretty safe to say that most planets have representation. Add to this the fact that certain planets keep popping up or being mentioned in the movies and we can conclude that the Imperial Galaxy is pretty small. (Again, this is based on what is actually in the movies.) Also, the entire structure of their government is simply wrong for a multi million world civilization.

Remember too that a couple hundred thousand clones was considered a big army for the Republic… Which brings up another point. What kind of galactic civilization can’t get a couple million volunteers to serve in a military? A pretty pathetic one.  Based on the behavior of the troops it looks like the Empire had to resort to recruiting idiots and morons as well.

Economically, the Empire apparently relies on droids for production. The absurdly large size of many of their ships indicates a people with no concern over the cost of materials or labor.

Meanwhile you have the Federation which has a few hundred or thousand worlds so it’s about the same size as the Empire. Their military is all volunteer and apparently consists of the most intelligent and ambitious members of their society. Which doesn’t say a lot for their society. Federation economics is probably based on the replacator, a device that can make anything you want from a ham sandwich to parts for your space coupe. As a result most Federation citizens do little of nothing all day. Federation citizens are impossibly addicted to luxuries and creature comforts as proven by the design of their warships.

So you have a war between really smart Liberal pussies and a pack of morons that can’t shoot straight.

Imperial weapons technology is absolutely pathetic. The damage output of their weapons is more appropriate to WWII than to an advanced civilization. Vehicle mounted blasters the size of Bofors do less damage to trees than a 40mm round would. Personal blasters don’t hit as hard as equivalent sized firearms. This, combined with the musket level of accuracy (and the musket era tactics back this up) means that the Empire is pretty poorly armed.

Defensively they equip their troops with worthless armor and their ships with rather ineffective shields.

The Federation weapons aren’t much better unless the plot calls for it or the network censors would rather see a body vanish than get left lying on the floor.  Their shielding is probably part of the reason their weapons seem so ineffective. Their shielding is not a proper polycyclic (EE Smith fan here) screen with full coverage. They have this technology but never seem to use it, probably because it’s unfair to the Romulans or something (which is why the Federation doesn’t have a cloaking device.)

Federation ships also use warp drives to travel. Warp engines are apparently a technology that fails whenever someone sneezes on them, dang things are always going offline. And they are slower than what the Empire has.

The Empire has hyperspace engines that work much better as long as they aren’t maintained by Wookies. They give a huge strategic mobility advantage to the Imperial fleet.

Tactically both sides use the same approach as was used at Trafalgar… Actually they are probably pre Trafalgar and Nelson could probably teach them a thing or two… Especially Sulu, if you take my meaning.

Tactically the Federation would win most engagements while the Empire would kick ass strategically. It would be easy for the Federation to defend its planets from the Empire but orbital phaser arrays probably scare the panties off of Federation citizens. (I’ve got to assume that the Empire could manage to drop a few asteroids on a planet or do something besides shoot at them with ineffective blasters.) The Federation would negotiate with the Empire and agree to give up a few planets for lasting peace. Then a year later they would be back to exchanging more planets for peace. Eventually the Empire annexes the Federation.  But this is totally the result of the Federation’s dedication to being pussies. If they grew a pair they could kick the Empire’s ass.

Babylon 5 Wins then.

Centauri Mass Drivers ftw.

"Cutter Lasers".

Physics.

I got a bad feeling about this...

A large fast moving mass has a lot of energy.  The Enterprise hitting an asteroid of similar relative size would also have it's shields penetrated like they were nothing and their bridge destroyed.  I think you vastly underestimate the power needed to survive massive impacts.





The A-wing...  An X-wing had just managed to destroy the shield emitters for the bridge.  The bridge crew are heard screaming "Get those shields back up!" and "Too late!" just before the A-wing impacts.





 

erm... KE is VERY easy to calculate.

Assuming a pure iron composition asteroid, a 400m radius, and velocity of 500 m/s.  This is clearly larger than what is shown and much faster.  This gives a 2.68x10^8 m volume, combined with iron density at 7874 kg/m^2 and the speed from before results in a collision of roughly 2.6x10^17 joules.

This means the ISD, if its shields were indeed rated at 3.8x10^26, could have sustained an impact just like that every single second for 45.6 YEARS, before their shields failed.

Once again I say. Those ST/SW fansites are made by highschool dropouts and fake "engineers" that have never held a real job.

Normally I'd be willing to say something like "that might be a deflector shield rating for the entirety of the ship, and so not representative of an individual strike point or individual location with strength that would resist/hold such an impact".

Sort of like how you have dispersion of weight with greater surface area, while a tire can hold 1/4 of a vehicle's GVWR, a 1" square section of tire cannot hold the entire GVWR.

Even so... I'd rather look at just the stories themselves, because a technical discussion rapidly becomes wholly irrelevant, especially as made-up numbers are crunched.

Except...

Now, unless I missed some zeroes (just using the calculator on the computer that lacks sci notation), assuming the Star Trek rating quoted on the last page was correct, of 5,737,500,000,000,000,000 joules and the impact of an asteroid were 260,000,000,000,000,000 joules, we're looking at the Enterprise absorbing about 22 impacts before the shields go down.

Wait... that doesn't sound insane.  In fact, it sounds... somewhat representative of the fiction, as though Star Trek nerds are trying to make it work, and Star Wars nerds are just dweeb Keynesians with tourettes just throwing bigger and bigger obscene numbers out.

You're getting all geeky about the numbers and what is on screen, but forgetting that the shields on the Executor were already down due to the sustained barrage by most of the rebel fleet, which is why the A Wing was able to smash into the bridge.  Kind of like how holes get punched into Star Trek ships when their shields are down.

That isn't even so outlandish, mentioned in some obscure BS reference manual I had to dig up.  They mentioned all of that (fleet concentrating fire on the SSD, shields being down before A wing hit) on screen.  If the Enterprise had its shields down and a VW beetle sized A Wing smashed into it at decent speed, the entire bridge would get fucked....just like the Executors bridge was.  

Disney needs to get on board with doing a universe crossover movie.

And just to piss everyone off, Whedon gets to direct that one too.

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