This is the type of warhead that GEN Partin described as downing TWA800:


Continuous-rod warhead

That's why he needed a tow!

It's all falling into place.

All coordinated by the FDA.

I still remember hearing calls coming in from Flight 93 during the early hours of on 9/11. One of those recordings said “there’s a puff of smoke on the wing, we’re going down.” Never heard that audio again in days or years that followed. Always made me wonder

That was the trial run.

The coverup was much better.

GD: “only big ships with big hard-to-silence crews can shoot surface to air missiles”
GD: “you cant shoot a stinger from a rubber raft”
*posts 2021 photo of marine training with stinger in a little rubber raft

GD: “that 2021 photo tactic is too new, nobody could do that in caveman 1996”
*posts photos of small boats known to shoot stingers pre 1996 including iranian boghammers and, MKV”

GD: “there werent any MKV in service july 1996”
*posts photo of first MKV launch in 1995

GD: “miltary would neve have access to live stingers conus”
*posts story from guy who stood up SBU-22 saying it was the one thing brass didnt want to hand out because he thought they would shoot down a friendly chopper

GD: “military never uses open COTS short range voice coms”
*posts the manual that allows it
*getting ready to ship two frs right this afternoon to conus mil

GD: “stinger cannot reach or down a 747 at 13,700 ft
*no a spark jumped up from the ocean. It was reverse lightning and it confused 170 long islanders who were all drunk off jagerbombs. It sparked the center tank

Here is another great story:

1988, persian gulf. Some iranians in pissant boats had stingers. During or after the battle a seal or SBU guy saw a piece of floating styrofoam, recognized what it was, and dove in. It was a stinger battery and they ran the battery serial number and it confirmed that iran had cia-afghan stingers.

We then started flying higher ourselves in that area:

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They even raised the sunken boat based on the battery and found more live stingers.
https://apnews.com/article/ed7cd20462c8787840ee1b31eda0568a Attached File

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Granted he didnt pull the trigger on camera or down a 747 that day. I am not saying the boat would be in mint condition afterward but…

@Cincinnatus

I am not saying all the long serving folks in this thread don’t know their shit.

I am saying that a conus shootdown of a 747 would be a retarded event. If you want to catch a retard, you guys need to start thinking like retards. Follow me on this journey.

The article specifically said “we dont know if he shot out of the crrc or not”

Might be camera tricks but they look low in water to me.

ETA: from the article
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/39432/stinger-sam-armed-marines-riding-in-rubber-rafts-were-featured-in-recent-pacific-exercise

“It's not clear whether or not the Stinger-armed Marines conducted any training to prepare to actually engage aerials threats from the CRRCs, though one picture, seen at the top of this story, does show an individual in one of the boats aiming their launcher at a CH-53E. However, the backblast from firing an FIM-92 is not insignificant and, at least in training, no other personnel beyond the two-person Stinger team are supposed to stand within 164 feet of the launcher when a missile is loosed.

So, it's unclear if it would be safe to fire the weapon from a rubber raft without some limitations put in place. The water around the boat would mitigate the backblast issue, as long as the rear of the launcher isn't pointed at the boat or its occupants.

Marines, as well as U.S. Navy personnel, do routinely fire the weapons from the decks of larger ships. Still, even setting aside any potential safety concerns, one would have to wonder if the CRRC would provide a stable enough platform to effectively employ the weapon, at all. “

Story says so. I was most def not present.

The whole point of discussing CRRC is that sometimes stingers are present on vessels where shit happens. You could move a stinger with nobody knowing. You could say it went overboard.

We had a guy in thread who *may* have transported stingers in a shitbox honda.

I don’t think big missiles have ever been moved in a Honda or CRRC.

This discussion is all about “what is the minimum number of persons who could know that a missile was in fact launched”

It is a weird warhead to be sure.

Any idea how large or the rod diameter?

Would the bits be nondescript and/or hard to metal detect and recover from sand bottom?

Lots of smoke and noise must clear a significant backblast area. No way a stinger was launched in a clandestine manner.  If they were close enough to the other ships to be under the airliner with a slight chance of reaching the altitude needed it would be noticed.

If they launched from much further out maybe it was not noticed but no way the Stinger would have the legs to reach the target.

I know this because I am one of the fairly rare Navy Stingers (went to school with Marines on an Army base). I was number one in my class and actually got to fire a real Stinger along with the #1 Marine in the class.

Also in response to a post above, uh the Stinger batteries are quite heavy as they are a battery and have Argon ( correction long day not nitrogen) in them to supercool the IR cell to make it more sensitive. There is no way a Stinger battery was floating.

We had a dumbass playing with one in the Persian Gulf when I was there and fumbled the damn thing overboard. Sunk like a rock, maybe faster and then someone got a ride back to the states and we never heard from him again.

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Night stinger launch, long camera shutter

Shit yea, got to read the rest of the thread but another Navy Stinger.. Awesome

Oh and the picture on the great white ghost, ah the old white ship.

Stinger battery might have been floating in the pelican hardcase but the source said “styrofoam” and yes it looks like it weighs 5 lbs. story was circa 1988 so maybe stinger packaging varied over time?

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The hard cases have stayed the same as far as I know. I was in the PG in 89 so I am very familiar with the time frame from the article.
Now the case is filled with a styrofoam cutout to hold the Stinger and the batteries.  It is one large solid piece and the hard case usually comes with two batteries. It could be possible but most likely the styrofoam would be floating with the batteries down due to the weight.  Unless things changed drastically the foam cutout was not tight enough to hold the battery in when upside down. It could be possible but it seems highly unlikely.

Media report could also be incorrect, the hard case will float if sealed.

wasnt there something about a stinger not having the range due to how high the jet was?
prolly a weaponized tiktak.

The photos from actual 1980’s stinger crews were the best part of this thread.

All of the shitposting i am doing is trying to see if it “could” have been a missile.

With so many consistent witnesses of a bright streak going up, meeting a plane, then fireball, it sounds like a missile.

If the witnesses didnt need to be discredited, CIA would not bother with the bullshit “zoom climb” video. And if “zoom climb” was real, why didn’t boeing, FAA, nasa, Aerospace engineers, some university etc help with the model?

Any of those orgs have better credentials, software etc to model the event.

CIA main expertise is 1) lying and 2) lying about other lies. ATF tells the truth more often than CIA.

So, if you start with “explain how a missile launch could be kept secret 25 years” and “explain how the physical evidence could be within the 2% of the plane that is still missing or hidden away” then you end up with the smallest missile there is, and maybe it is inert or a dud to boot.

The rest of my shitposting is figuring out the smallest boat with the smallest tight lip crew possible.

I think seals and sbu guys could keep a secret because 99% of what they do is secret unless an admiral or the president talks about it for them.

The iranians shot it at americans in 1988.

The americans gave it to mujahadeen at least several years earlier (i have read we gave them brand new ones off the line, i would have given them the expired milk jugs).

The actual ceiling of any of the ten-odd known stinger variants is classified. Public sources like janes say 3000m for early model ceiling and 3500 for late model. They built at least a few prototypes that could hit 25k ft ceiling but the program was cut per public sources.

However, plenty of public sources say that the first people/platforms to test new redeye and stinger in field trl7 conditions are SBU type units.

In other words, if they made a run of 50 prototypes of the super stinger then maybe they shoot/film 10 at white sands and then check a box and go shoot of a smallish boat to test further.

That sounds like how redeye got tested in 1960’s.

We handed them out in Afghanistan and there was lots of chatter about them being handed out during the Iran-Iraq conflict. There is no doubt that we have placed Stingers (and Redeyes) in foreign operators' hands.  The amazing thing is how effective these people were, even without the training that US forces receive to use the system.

NYT article says we started giving stingers to afghan in 1985 and iranians were shooting them at us by 1987:  


Iranians Captured Stinger Missiles From Afghan Guerrillas, U.S. Says


By Stephen Engelberg With Bernard E. Trainor, Special To the New York Times
Oct. 17, 1987

Administration officials say intelligence has established that the Stinger missile parts found on an Iranian attack boat in the Persian Gulf this month were part of a batch supplied by the United States to Afghan guerrillas, who lost them to Iranian forces in June.

The officials said the Afghans lost the missiles in a skirmish with Iranian troops who surprised them after they crossed the Iranian-Afghan border.

The officials said that there were casualties on both sides from the exchange of fire, but that after the Iranians called in reinforcements, the guerrillas were overwhelmed and their supply of as many as 30 Stinger missiles was taken by the Iranians. Pakistanis Ask Return

Administration officials said the capture of the missiles touched off an intense round of diplomatic activity in which Pakistani officials and the Afghan Islamic guerrillas, appealing for solidarity with the Islamic cause, tried to persuade Iran to return the missiles. American officials said they believed the talks, which are continuing, now had little chance of success.
The United States said the missile parts, including a battery marked with a serial number, were found aboard two Iranian patrol boats captured by the United States Navy in the Persian Gulf on Oct. 8 after American helicopters came under fire.

American officials say they are convinced that reports that the Afghan groups had sold some of the missiles to Iran are untrue. ''We have no reason to doubt there was a firefight,'' one knowledgeable Administration official said. He declined to provide details on what intelligence had been used to verify the Afghans' version of events.

But several officials cautioned that the investigation was continuing and that the possibility remained that the Afghan guerrilla commanders might not have told the whole truth.

The conclusion that the batteries were originally part of a shipment of weapons from the United States to the Afghans is likely to revive a debate in the Administration and Congress over whether and under what circumstances such high-technology weapons should be provided to guerrilla groups. The Central Intelligence Agency, operating in cooperation with the Pakistani Government, has been covertly supporting the Afghan rebels for nearly seven years.

After sharp internal debate, the Administration decided in 1985 to begin supplying the guerrillas with Stingers. Some senior military officials objected because they feared the weapons could be captured or lost and then used against American forces.
Administration officials said the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the commander of Persian Gulf forces had been alerted to the capture of the Stingers.

Explosive actuated airplane garotte cheese slicer.

Especially the coke deals.

This is declassified british con rod warhead from 1960s

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That only happened a few times you guys

Confession time.
I was the lead TAO on USS George Washington.
On Sept 12th, 2001 we were sailing in New York harbor.
We had CAP patrolling the city.
I locked up the Red Cross blood delivery coming in to JFK with NATO Sea Sparrow because it was only squawking Mode III and descending toward the city.
Everything else flying along the Eastern seaboard on that day had Mode IV, and NORTHCOM neglected to Inform the Navy about the blood delivery.

So, it's fairly understandable a Navy ship would kill an airliner in 1996.

The afghans eliminated the IFF step, total waste of time bro

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I can see that making sense.

I was more talking about all the time training that had nothing to do with the IFF system. We did spend a whole lot of time doing aircraft identification training.

Yea when everything is a target it is a lot easier to get straight to the firing.

For those of us who have never seen a stinger fire, this video explains a lot.

It ends with a nightime target drone shootdown.

He explains getting a background UV reading on clear sky, getting tone, uncaging the seeker gimbal from missile axis, superelevation etc

What are these "Pelican Cases" regarding BCU transport that I have seen some of you referring to?

This is a Stinger transport case of that vintage (in my basement)

 

Inside ginormous case that houses everything to set up are the 4 BCU receptacles

 

These don't float so well and BCU's sink like a rock (SOP is to toss overboard ASAP, they get really hot and swell).

Damn, why do I want one.. lol

@rstel01

So is the black crap inside open cell foam, closed cell, refractory firebrick????

Could you cut a chunk off and see if it floats like a witch?

ETA: the case, the butterfly clamps, and the foam look just like some packaging i have seen for mil robots

If you’re willing to let the SEALs and SBU folks keep a secret because a lot of what they do is secret, then why do you accuse the CIA of lying, when 99% of what they do is also classified at secret or above?    

This will blow your mind: lots of SEALs end up working for/with CIA.  So they are part of the horrible deep state (REEEEEEEE!!!! The DEEP STATE!!!!!!).  Many, many people jump out of various branches of the service into CIA.  Missions to kill turds like Bin Laden are developed and supported by CIA.  

I have seen a number of posts here trying to insulate or separate the military services from government agencies they don’t like, because they love to worship people who serve while bashing and condemning CIA, FBI, NSA, whatever else they don’t like.  Lots of veterans in all of those agencies who continue to serve their country, even if they don’t provide you with a daily brief on it, and your only source for what happens in the MSM.

Anyway, carry on with your exercise.  No harm in exploring alternative explanations.  Just don’t expect everyone to agree.

The relevance of SBU and SEAL is that you can have a boat with 4, 10, 20 dudes (versus some missile destroyer with hundreds or thousands)
The relevance of a stinger vs a large high-altitude missile is, again, human/financial/physical footprint size

I don’t recall seals or sbu releasing laughable cgi videos to seed doubt about missions. Either a mission gets disclosed or it doesnt but usually it is civilians who disclose what seals do.

Maybe if a seal is good at lying they can work for CIA audio visual dept.

Look, i know we need a CIA, all of our enemies have a similar agency.

I just don’t like how easily CIA can justify doing bad shit / collateral damage to the taxpayers who pay their salaries.

I don’t have any information that leads me to believe the plane went down because of anything but the official reason.  I personally don’t think Andy thing was done by anyone with the US military or government to cover up the details about flight 800.  

I could be wrong, and I know the CIA hasn’t got a perfect track record.  Look at MK Ultra, Iran Contra, etc etc.  

I will also say our enemies love nothing more than for our populace to hate and blame our own government for things that didn’t even happen.  Read “The Sword and the Shield” by Christopher Andrew and Vasily Mitrokhin, as well as “The World Was Going Our Way” by the same to catch a glimpse of (now dated) KGB influence operations that were planted to make it appear our own government did horrible things which were never done.  It’s called “Active Measures” in their terminology.  They still do such operations, aimed at causing confusion and discontent.  A huge amount of effort was made by the Russians this last year about the COVID vaccines.  Much of it was bought hook, line and sinker by people in the US.  It’s very easy to do: take something true, mix it with something false that sounds plausible, introduce it to Reddit, let it go and sit back and laugh.

Everything in your post is true. Something may have gotten worse recently at CIA since they let Brennan (actual commie) lead them.

Where in the CIA charter is aerodynamic modeling and simulation? Disinfo and propaganda is in their charter. Shipping manpads to afghans then trying to recover them for next ten years is in their charter.

NASA and FAA and NTSB and SAE and Boeing and MIT should have made that video.

The list of people most qualified to model the aero effects of a midair breakup dont even list CIA on first page.

The list of people most able to snowjob the public starts with CIA and everyone else is an also-ran.

All valid points.  

I got a brief years ago on MANPADS, and I can’t remember what the cutoff date was for Stingers in AFG, but after a certain time, components on them don’t function correctly.  I think 1996 is close enough to when we handed them to Afghans that they would still work, but I seem to remember there being a point into the 2000s when a lot of them would no longer function as desired.

Last stingers were delivered to afghans in 1987 or 1988. First were in 1986 or 85.

First afghan stinger transfer to iran and shot back at us I found was in 1987.

NYT is full of stories about us still trying to buy them back at double-retail in 1995 and 1996 so someone thought they were fresh enough.

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