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Posted: 4/15/2019 9:19:17 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah now, don't you worry. I'm a Porsche guy too. I love the machine. But you must admit, it is somewhat disheartening to see a four door "cheap shitbox with fast electric motors" beat a $350k machine designed and built for speed. ...no? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Is it worth watching? Honestly, I care no more about Tesla acceleration numbers than I do drag race numbers for souped-up Dodge or Chevy cars. To even try to make a comparison is asenine, IMO. The Tesla is a hideously cheap shitbox with fast electric motors. The fact that it can go fast in a straight line isn’t very interesting.  . This is one of those times.
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Posted: 4/16/2019 7:20:43 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most of the time you make good points; some times your posts are . This is one of those times. |
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Posted: 4/16/2019 8:51:05 AM EST
[#3]
Something missing from the conversation is that Tesla's amazing straight line drag performance is not a characteristic of Teslas. It's a characteristic of BEV vehicles in general. It's just a matter of how much long term battery damage the manufacturer thinks the consumer will be okay with in exchange for doing a sweet 0-60 launch once in a while.
In the past Tesla has been caught software limiting your launches after you did a certain number of them. You got a quota of full power launches, and then they were silently neutered in the software to stop you from destroying the battery long term. The numbers were hidden from the driver so when you bought a used Tesla you had no idea if the previous owner had used up your launches. |
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Posted: 4/19/2019 10:13:33 AM EST
[#4]
In a bind, Musk hopes his vision of autonomous Tesla taxis will drive a new, positive narrative.
https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-elon-musk-full-self-drive-model3-demand-cash-20190419-story.html |
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Posted: 4/19/2019 10:19:07 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something missing from the conversation is that Tesla's amazing straight line drag performance is not a characteristic of Teslas. It's a characteristic of BEV vehicles in general. It's just a matter of how much long term battery damage the manufacturer thinks the consumer will be okay with in exchange for doing a sweet 0-60 launch once in a while. 
But if anyone thought that guy had somehow built an excellent overall car, or a competent sports car, they’d have to be the most gullible people in the world. 
Electric cars WILL get there, but my guess it that it will be something built by Porsche or BMW, maybe Audi. Porsche has apparently been doing a lot of EV testing on racetracks in the past year. |
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Posted: 4/21/2019 4:35:27 PM EST
[#6]
Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows
Wednesday, 17 April 2019 19:29 Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists. When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which coal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich. Mining and processing the lithium, cobalt and manganese used for batteries consume a great deal of energy. A Tesla Model 3 battery, for example, represents between 11 and 15 tonnes of CO2. Given a lifetime of 10 years and an annual travel distance of 15,000 kilometres, this translates into 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, scientists Christoph Buchal, Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn noted in their study. The CO2 given off to produce the electricity that powers such vehicles also needs to be factored in, they say. When all these factors are considered, each Tesla emits 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometre, which is more than a comparable diesel vehicle produced by the German company Mercedes, for example. The German researchers therefore take issue with the fact that European officials view electric vehicles as zero-emission ones. They note further that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per km by 2030 corresponds to a “technically unrealistic” consumption of 2.2 litres of diesel or 2.6 litres of gas per 100 kms. These new limits pressure German and other European car manufacturers into switching massively to electric vehicles whereas, the researchers feel, it would have been preferable to opt for methane engines, “whose emissions are one-third less than those of diesel motors.” Oscar Schneider The Brussels Times |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 10:55:47 AM EST
[#7]
 Tesla to investigate apparent Model S explosion in China |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 1:09:14 PM EST
[#8]
Annual update on Musk's Tesla shares: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4255727-tesla-elon-musk-borrowing-update
He had 13,394,056 shares (7.7% of Tesla) leveraged to secure personal loans at the end of 2018. |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 7:21:04 PM EST
[#9]
Quote History |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 7:25:30 PM EST
[#10]
As you probably know, Tesla is building a new vehicle plant in China. Production is scheduled to ramp-up next year.
The Chinese government is changing their energy policy. Now China wants hydrogen powered cars, not electric cars. Tesla was counting on a $7,400 government subsidy for their Chinese-made cars. That's being eliminated after next year. https://www.theepochtimes.com/chinas-electric-vehicle-industry-hit-hard-by-sudden-policy-shift-as-beijing-turns-toward-hydrogen-fuel_2865743.html |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 7:25:31 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Annual update on Musk's Tesla shares: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4255727-tesla-elon-musk-borrowing-update He had 13,394,056 shares (7.7% of Tesla) leveraged to secure personal loans at the end of 2018. Also, I wish a reporter would explain if this is a common thing controlling shareholders do to cash in on the benefit of being wealthy without losing control of their companies. If it's pretty normal I'd expect there are good customs in place for dealing with dropping share prices and margin calls. |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 7:36:55 PM EST
[#12]
As expected, the Autonomy Day turned out to be just another hoax product presentation. Just like battery swapping.
Just like Solar Roof tiles. Just like the Semi and R2. Just like the Autonomous coast to coast drive by the end of 2017. Just like the Alien Dreadnought. Just like Shanghai being a functional factory in 2019. Just like the Model Y. Just like the almost 20 gigafactories he's announced, while only building 1/3 of one. Except this time the share price dropped 3% between market open and the start of the presentation, and held onto the losses until the close. The price was flat in post-market. Investors just aren't buying Elon's lies like they used to. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-gears-fully-self-driving-070110262.html "They are going to dump Lidar," Musk assured investors and analysts gathered at Tesla's Palo Alto, California, office for the 2 hour presentation. |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 9:30:58 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why was there a camera pointed directly at those two cars, in a parking garage full of cars? Seems suspicious and stupid. Also, even if it's legit I can't see it being worth $1B+ of market cap loss today. It's a nothingburger compared to everything else that's merely metaphorically exploding into flames at this company. |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 6:55:56 AM EST
[#14]
Elon Musk is just another car salesman.
Tesla CEO's outlandish promises at 'Autonomy Day' show that he is willing to say whatever it takes to sell more cars. Tesla Inc.'s autonomous-driving showcase was riddled with so many pie-in-the-sky statements and inaccuracies that Chief Executive Elon Musk looks more like a huckster car salesman than the "genius" that his fans declare him to be. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-is-just-another-car-salesman-2019-04-22 |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 2:55:22 PM EST
[#15]
Another fire in Europe. No impact. This Model S just suddenly caught fire.
https://www.autoblog.nl/nieuws/tesla-in-de-fik-tijdens-rit-op-een-n-weg-te-culemborg-123635 |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 4:14:12 PM EST
[#16]
Elon Musk said that in the future, homeless people will be able to summon a self driving Tesla that will catch fire upon arrival and keep them warm.
Also you will be able to buy a self driving semi Tesla truck for $150k. And the truck will be able to earn $250k a year by driving loads for freight companies. Also we will have a colony on Mars by next Christmas. |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 4:14:35 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Elon Musk is just another car salesman. Tesla CEO's outlandish promises at 'Autonomy Day' show that he is willing to say whatever it takes to sell more cars. Tesla Inc.'s autonomous-driving showcase was riddled with so many pie-in-the-sky statements and inaccuracies that Chief Executive Elon Musk looks more like a huckster car salesman than the "genius" that his fans declare him to be. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-is-just-another-car-salesman-2019-04-22 |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 4:15:21 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Elon Musk said that in the future, homeless people will be able to summon a self driving Tesla that will catch fire upon arrival and keep them warm. Also you will be able to buy a self driving semi Tesla truck for $150k. And the truck will be able to earn $250k a year by driving loads for freight companies. Also we will have a colony on Mars by next Christmas. |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 4:19:48 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you pre-pay for a condo on Mars now, he’ll throw in a free Tesla pickup. 
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Posted: 4/23/2019 8:16:43 PM EST
[#20]
Elon Musk claims Tesla will have 1 million robotaxis on roads next year.
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/04/23/elon-musk-says-tesla-will-have-robotaxis-on-the-road-by-2020.html |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 8:44:34 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Elon Musk claims Tesla will have 1 million robotaxis on roads next year. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/04/23/elon-musk-says-tesla-will-have-robotaxis-on-the-road-by-2020.html |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 11:55:55 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if he believes his own lies. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 12:14:01 PM EST
[#23]
Ford to invest $500M in Rivian, co-produce new electric vehicle
Can't wait to see Musk/Tesla's response. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 12:17:41 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As you probably know, Tesla is building a new vehicle plant in China. Production is scheduled to ramp-up next year. The Chinese government is changing their energy policy. Now China wants hydrogen powered cars, not electric cars. Tesla was counting on a $7,400 government subsidy for their Chinese-made cars. That's being eliminated after next year. https://www.theepochtimes.com/chinas-electric-vehicle-industry-hit-hard-by-sudden-policy-shift-as-beijing-turns-toward-hydrogen-fuel_2865743.html I've been to conferences where they want to use the LNG infrastructure and piggy back that for hydrogen, and at the past 3 Tokyo Motor shows most of the major car companies had fuel cells for home use on display. For a country like Japan where we have a lot of earthquakes the government thinks that if if homes and businesses can have their own hydrogen storage it will not be such a shock to the economy like when the gas infrastructure goes down. Lots of areas of Japan rely on delivery service for LNG now, so switching to Hydrogen won't be a major issue, and you can re-sell electricity back to the grid, also good for earthquakes. https://www.autoblog.com/2019/04/21/toyota-research-institute-china-hydrogen-green-technology/ https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/Toyota-makes-new-push-for-fuel-cells-in-China-with-BAIC-tie-up Both the Chinese government and Chinese companies see fuel cell vehicles as viable options to tackle energy and environmental issues, and Toyota believes that it can grow the market by teaming up with BAIC, a major Chinese player. Toyota recently announced it will allow free access to more than 23,000 patents related to its hybrid-vehicle technology to spread its use. It also extended use of its patents related to fuel cell vehicles to 2030 under a program started in 2015. The automaker already has fuel cell technology tie-ups with German automaker BMW Group and other global players. It's coming, at least in Japan. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 12:32:10 PM EST
[#25]
Tesla is about to report earnings in a few hours.
Estimize consensus is $1.21 loss per share on $5.779 billion revenue. This is definitely going to be interesting. I don't think his "Autonomy Day" provided the pre-earnings distraction these antics usually do right before reporting. But as always there will be plenty of cult followers who will either pump it from the start, or buy the dip. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 12:42:05 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ford to invest $500M in Rivian, co-produce new electric vehicle Can't wait to see Musk/Tesla's response. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 12:46:50 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tesla is about to report earnings in a few hours. Estimize consensus is $1.21 loss per share on $5.779 billion revenue. This is definitely going to be interesting. I don't think his "Autonomy Day" provided the pre-earnings distraction these antics usually do right before reporting. But as always there will be plenty of cult followers who will either pump it from the start, or buy the dip. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 1:12:55 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tesla is about to report earnings in a few hours. Estimize consensus is $1.21 loss per share on $5.779 billion revenue. This is definitely going to be interesting. I don't think his "Autonomy Day" provided the pre-earnings distraction these antics usually do right before reporting. But as always there will be plenty of cult followers who will either pump it from the start, or buy the dip. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 3:21:28 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ford execs are a bunch of pedophiles. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 4:30:43 PM EST
[#30]
Loss of $2.90/share reported for last quarter. LOL.
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Posted: 4/24/2019 4:31:00 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you elaborate? |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 4:32:04 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Loss of $2.90/share reported for last quarter. LOL. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 4:33:10 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Loss of $2.90/share reported for last quarter. LOL. 
4.54 billion in revenue down from an expected 5.19 billion |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 4:35:57 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Missing expectations by 339% |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 4:50:38 PM EST
[#35]
Tesla stock is actually up a bit in after hours trading.
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Posted: 4/24/2019 5:01:14 PM EST
[#36]
"Among the other big updates that Tesla announced during its call were plans to launch a vehicle insurance product in the coming months."
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/teslas-q1-earnings-call-model-3-s-x/ |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 5:35:09 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit. Boy I thought they turned the corner to profitability? |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 5:50:18 PM EST
[#38]
I wouldn't be surprised if Musk steps down from the CEO position. He could stay with Tesla as Fundraiser in chief.
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Posted: 4/24/2019 5:53:45 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't be surprised if Musk steps down from the CEO position. He could stay with Tesla as Fundraiser in chief. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 6:09:42 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fundraiser? Lol. Take money from profitable SpaceX to keep the cash incinerator running, maybe. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 6:27:49 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To play devil's advocate, we dont know that spacex is profitable, just that the owners are comfortable with the burn rate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Fundraiser? Lol. Take money from profitable SpaceX to keep the cash incinerator running, maybe. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 6:39:28 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the fact that it’s still privately held tells us everything we need to know. If they needed more $$ they could scare up untold billions via IPO. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 6:44:45 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ford to invest $500M in Rivian, co-produce new electric vehicle Can't wait to see Musk/Tesla's response.
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Posted: 4/24/2019 7:07:53 PM EST
[#44]
SpaceX is not just a separate company from Tesla, it's a completely different company. Best guess is they're operating right around break-even, which is fine at their development stage. The space launch market is not very big and not very flexible when it comes to supply and demand. By being cheaper than ULA(but much less reliable, that's a different thread) they'll gain market share but the total market size doesn't change much. They have around $12B in launch contracts booked, there really isn't a need for additional outside funding. They did raise another $500M this month but that's not really that much considering. They're on the path to success as long as nothing screws them up. They're also much smaller than Tesla, roughly $2B in revenue last year. They couldn't bail out Tesla even if they wanted to. Funny how easy it is to forget how much a billion dollars really is.
There's no way to sugarcoat this, Q1 was a bloodbath for Tesla. PDF of Q1 report here. They try to blame the $1.5B cash loss mostly on the $920M debt payment, but they forget to mention that total debt only decreased by $630M. They took out a bunch of new debt to replace the payoff. S/X sales fell off a cliff. Everyone should have expected the start of European sales would wreak havoc on the bottom line as they setup the weeks long supply chain, but it's still worse than it should be. Absolutely no excuse in Q2 and the future since that pipeline is primed now, we'll see how that turns out. Model 3 gross margin decreased yet again, as did S/X. For a supposed growth company, it's a bad sign that depreciation exceeded capex. Again. By a lot. 2018Q1 had a similar net loss(~$700M) as this quarter, but with $375M more in capex. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 9:04:56 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SpaceX is not just a separate company from Tesla, it's a completely different company. Best guess is they're operating right around break-even, which is fine at their development stage. The space launch market is not very big and not very flexible when it comes to supply and demand. By being cheaper than ULA(but much less reliable, that's a different thread) they'll gain market share but the total market size doesn't change much. They have around $12B in launch contracts booked, there really isn't a need for additional outside funding. They did raise another $500M this month but that's not really that much considering. They're on the path to success as long as nothing screws them up. They're also much smaller than Tesla, roughly $2B in revenue last year. They couldn't bail out Tesla even if they wanted to. Funny how easy it is to forget how much a billion dollars really is. There's no way to sugarcoat this, Q1 was a bloodbath for Tesla. PDF of Q1 report here. They try to blame the $1.5B cash loss mostly on the $920M debt payment, but they forget to mention that total debt only decreased by $630M. They took out a bunch of new debt to replace the payoff. S/X sales fell off a cliff. Everyone should have expected the start of European sales would wreak havoc on the bottom line as they setup the weeks long supply chain, but it's still worse than it should be. Absolutely no excuse in Q2 and the future since that pipeline is primed now, we'll see how that turns out. Model 3 gross margin decreased yet again, as did S/X. For a supposed growth company, it's a bad sign that depreciation exceeded capex. Again. By a lot. 2018Q1 had a similar net loss(~$700M) as this quarter, but with $375M more in capex. The big car companies (Ford, GM, VW...) have smart people that know about the automotive business. They never ramped up electric vehicles because they knew it would not be profitable. Elon Musk talks about "raising capital" - raising cash by selling more shares of Tesla stock. https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-reports-loss-amid-stuggles-delivering-model-3-cars-11556141829?shareToken=st6808ed233cd6407da40103e57b0345ed |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 9:34:44 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if he believes his own lies. |
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Posted: 4/25/2019 12:22:42 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New math. 1 million in a year @ 5,000 per week. Hmmm. Quote HistoryQuoted: New math. 1 million in a year @ 5,000 per week. Hmmm. In fact, Tesla plans to increase vehicle deliveries to between 360,000 and 400,000 per year in 2019. That would represent a 45%-65% increase in deliveries over 2018, which would be huge, if it actually happens. On the production side, the numbers are even bigger. Tesla stated that if its able to get the Shanghai factory up and running by Q4 that it its global production could exceed 500,000 vehicles. That sounds huge, but compared to a company like General Motors that built 9.7 million cars in 2015 alone, it's a drop in the bucket. So they are going to open a new factory, with new workers, and start pumping out cars in China at that rate. This is such bullshit, its so difficult right now to find skilled workers in the Automotive area in China (and Japan where I recruit) that just the training alone will take 6 months for newbies. There is NO way a company of that size with that type of institutional knowledge can ramp up that fast. These are complicated regulated machines, the compliance alone in China will take years to sort out. Here in Japan, they hired a bunch of very senior staff from the Luxury industry, a lot from fashion and jewelry. They wanted to focus on the "experience" of shopping. Well now they are laying these people off and the "experience" of shopping will be logging onto their system and purchasing online. That wont fly here where you get a reach around and massage with every new car purchase, and there are a lot of bad rumors about the servicing (lack of skills, delays, bad customer experiences), plus the absolutely dismal resale value. They have boxed themselves into the mobile phone category of latest model and software upgrades, which for a car company means resale is totally crap. Elon will be forced out or exit soon, I have heard from people in the industry here none of the major auto companies want to buy Tesla because their perceived value is eroding. There is nothing there in the way of technology or patents that would give a major player an advantage worth the price. The only thing that would help is the servicing and possibly the resale value could increase. Would you rather buy an electric Lexus or a Tesla? |
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Posted: 4/25/2019 7:57:25 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From the CNet article https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/teslas-q1-earnings-call-model-3-s-x/ So they are going to open a new factory, with new workers, and start pumping out cars in China at that rate. This is such bullshit, its so difficult right now to find skilled workers in the Automotive area in China (and Japan where I recruit) that just the training alone will take 6 months for newbies. There is NO way a company of that size with that type of institutional knowledge can ramp up that fast. These are complicated regulated machines, the compliance alone in China will take years to sort out. Here in Japan, they hired a bunch of very senior staff from the Luxury industry, a lot from fashion and jewelry. They wanted to focus on the "experience" of shopping. Well now they are laying these people off and the "experience" of shopping will be logging onto their system and purchasing online. That wont fly here where you get a reach around and massage with every new car purchase, and there are a lot of bad rumors about the servicing (lack of skills, delays, bad customer experiences), plus the absolutely dismal resale value. They have boxed themselves into the mobile phone category of latest model and software upgrades, which for a car company means resale is totally crap. Elon will be forced out or exit soon, I have heard from people in the industry here none of the major auto companies want to buy Tesla because their perceived value is eroding. There is nothing there in the way of technology or patents that would give a major player an advantage worth the price. The only thing that would help is the servicing and possibly the resale value could increase. Would you rather buy an electric Lexus or a Tesla? It's insane that Tesla hired all these Sales staff last year, and now they're laying them off. Not exactly a good way to motivate your Sales team. |
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Posted: 4/25/2019 9:37:26 AM EST
[#49]
A few highlights from recent reports:
- Vehicle sales dropped 30% - Loss of $11,000 per vehicle sold - Government subsidies/rebates ending in USA and China - CEO is charged with lying to investors Elon Musk Jan 30, 2019: "I am optimistic about being profitable in Q1 and all quarters going forward." Elon Musk Apr 24, 2019: Loss of $2.90/share ($700+m) in Q1. |
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Posted: 4/25/2019 12:27:13 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for the insight from Japan. It's insane that Tesla hired all these Sales staff last year, and now they're laying them off. Not exactly a good way to motivate your Sales team. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
From the CNet article https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/teslas-q1-earnings-call-model-3-s-x/ So they are going to open a new factory, with new workers, and start pumping out cars in China at that rate. This is such bullshit, its so difficult right now to find skilled workers in the Automotive area in China (and Japan where I recruit) that just the training alone will take 6 months for newbies. There is NO way a company of that size with that type of institutional knowledge can ramp up that fast. These are complicated regulated machines, the compliance alone in China will take years to sort out. Here in Japan, they hired a bunch of very senior staff from the Luxury industry, a lot from fashion and jewelry. They wanted to focus on the "experience" of shopping. Well now they are laying these people off and the "experience" of shopping will be logging onto their system and purchasing online. That wont fly here where you get a reach around and massage with every new car purchase, and there are a lot of bad rumors about the servicing (lack of skills, delays, bad customer experiences), plus the absolutely dismal resale value. They have boxed themselves into the mobile phone category of latest model and software upgrades, which for a car company means resale is totally crap. Elon will be forced out or exit soon, I have heard from people in the industry here none of the major auto companies want to buy Tesla because their perceived value is eroding. There is nothing there in the way of technology or patents that would give a major player an advantage worth the price. The only thing that would help is the servicing and possibly the resale value could increase. Would you rather buy an electric Lexus or a Tesla? It's insane that Tesla hired all these Sales staff last year, and now they're laying them off. Not exactly a good way to motivate your Sales team. |
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