No not a swing and a miss, we keep hearing how if prices aren't allowed to triple or more there won't be anyone willing to sell product.   I've not seen that to be the case.  After Ike the only reason gas shortages occurred was because there wasn't electricity to pump it out of the ground in many places and stations did raise prices to match the cost of incoming replenishments just like every other station around the country.  But even without being able to rake people over the coals to increase profits people opened their stores, some on generators, and kept doing business meaning that this scenario where lower prices lead to no necessities available didn't play out and that was in the fourth largest city in the nation with a lot of the population having been ill prepared.   

NOPE, just makes you look really stupid with all that welfare going on in your home icebox.

But Alaska is the bastion of freedom so there is that....

The TARD is strong in this thread.

I wouldn't call it a free market, because nowhere in the United States has a free market because of governmental meddling. A more appropriate description would be current market conditions.

And let me re-state my point of view AGAIN since some are so stuck on the fact that I am talking about Texas. I think "gougers" in times of real emergency are POS however I think it shouldn't be illegal and they should have the right to charge whatever they want, just as you have the right to not purchase from them. And they certainly shouldn't be jailed for it.

Yet somehow we recovered and survived without all those good samaritans bringing down supplies.  

LOL, AG Ken Paxton on the news stating right now that evacuations will be mandatory.  They will physically remove people.

MORE BS, let them be.  Liberty... Just know fire and police are not coming for you when you rethink your position.  Speaking from a firefighter perspective, let them live with their decisions.  When you are out of drinking water, electricity, and muddy water is over your head....DEAL WITH IT.  

But no govt mandatory evacuations.  They may need a cleansing down there.

Having anti-gouging laws on the books keeps the price down on low demand items months outside of the range they are normally needed?  No way.

I agree, it's a good back and forth.  There is no "pure" solution on one side or the other, and we are kind of finding where the line is between the two.

We had a water crisis here a few years back, where an algae bloom developed in the western basin of Lake Erie (where our potable water comes from) and caused cytotoxins (or some shit like that - I'm not up on all the scientific shit about this) to form in the water supply, making it undrinkable without risk of liver damage (again, something like that anyway).

So this gets announced on the local news with about "zero" advance warning to anyone, and suddenly people are going apeshit trying to find and purchase bottled drinking water of any kind.  Stores are mobbed, and shelves quickly start to become bare, as people are stocking up, because no one is sure how long the ban on drinking tap water will be in effect.

Pretty soon nearly all stores are out, and people are driving all over the place trying to find any place that still has some water in stock.

There was one Ma and Pa gas station/convenience store that still had some 24 packs of Dasani or something like that, which he would normally sell for $3.99 or $4.99, thereabouts.

The owner put out a sign saying he had this water, and it was now $20 for a 24 pack.

Some people who were desperate were willing to pay that amount, so they did, but word of these shenanigans quickly got into the local news.

The State Attorney General crawled up in his shit in the aftermath, and the bad publicity he got cost him a lot of business from previously loyal customers weeks and months later, so the moral of this story is that any business owner who thinks it is a good idea to try and cash in and make a quick buck on other people's misfortune is best advised to consider the long term cost/benefit analysis before doing so.

I'm certain he ended up losing a LOT more $$$ due to pissed off customers afterwards than he made taking advantage of them during the crisis.

Whether legal or not, it's really NOT a sound business decision to try and fuck your customers over.

ETA: Myself, I didn't even bother running anywhere to look for water.  I had a small supply at home, and when that ran out, I simply went to the designated place where the National Guard troops were giving out free water, which I knew was going to happen by D Plus 48 Hours regardless.

At what % of a margin do you think it is OK for the shooting to start?  20% mark up?  50% mark up?

Maybe don't run your business in razor thin margins all the time and you'd be able to weather a storm. 

Exactly. I'm picking up on some little man syndrome from that guy. 

please comrade, what glorious state of liberty do you reside??

Thank you for summing up the stupidity that is so prevalent in this thread in one sentence. Maybe you will get lucky and all the retailers in your area will worry about getting shot over their posted prices and just pack up and move away, thereby guaranteeing an economic desert.

you are really disconnected from reality

But I suspect your price gouging law benefited you the consumer somewhere along the line and you took it(I would have too, unknowlingly like you I am sure) and did not benefit the freedom of the shop owner.

My only point is those crying moral high ground may not have so much high ground.  Through no particular fault of their own.  Hard pill to swallow.  But if I were a betting man...

Don't be ridiculous. Just before and for at least a week after IKE gas was almost impossible to find at a station.

Don't compare what you're experiencing now to actual shortage situations. This isn't it.

No, no it's not. Force and a free market are mutually exclusive ideas.

Wait, so you're OKAY with the government forcing and jailing people for not charging a government approved price on goods that at the end of the day really aren't life or death items, but your NOT okay with the government forcing evacuations that have a much higher likelihood of saving someones life if it gets as bad as they say?

At the end of the day the government is still forcing someone to do something against their will with the thread of imprisonment if they don't comply. I don't understand how you can be for one but against the other?

He says he's from Alaska where there is such liberty that you can't even own a switchblade, but the state sends you a check every year so you can buy pot at the store.

You obviously have zero experience running a small business.  Storms and natural disasters create a temporary demand that normal supply chains can not fulfill.  To go outside your normal supply chain requires risk and capital.  Get it wrong and you risk your long term success.  Some are willing to take the risk if the potential reward is great enough.  Anti-Gouging laws take away the reward.  Plus, you run the risk of alienating your local customer base if you go up on your prices and going up on the price is the only thing that makes taking the risk worth it.  

Hotel rooms are a prime example.  They will be sold out, or already sold out at normal prices.  Families are renting 2 or 3 rooms, when they would have made do with one room if the price was 3 times as much.  The result is that folks have no where to stay.  

Supply and demand works every time, but feel good laws get folks elected.

I agree with you.....THE POINT IS OUTLAWS DON'T!!!!!

AND WHEN YOU NEED THAT ENFORCED THERE AREN'T ANY COPS.

YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T READ AN F'ing THING I WROTE TODAY....

NO I AM NOT GOOD WITH MORE LAWS or GOV PRICE FIXING.


@bjohnson425 my whole point was to call out the retarded hypocrisy of this thread.  Especially with the bastion of freedom Alaska being the welfare capital of America.  Wonder if your 5 year job there colludes with unions too?

Fact, We ALL DO!

Attached File

God, there sure are some "life needing mother fuckers" in this world, ya know?

GET A FUCKING LIFE!

Panic.   After Ike I was able to find anything I wanted within two days gas was harder to come by until power came on.  I actually saw generators for sale in stores in strip malls and people were still overpaying for them in the parking lots.   Hell the evening after the storm I treated my less well prepared neighbors to dominoes  pizza, cold beer and bought them all ice when I found many stores had more ice than they could sell even when selling at cost.   24 hours after the storm supplies were being brought in all over the city to those stores that put their businesses on generator for part of the day and were selling.    The biggest issue was having cash as communications for credit card machines was down. 

But then he wouldn't get his state dividend check, duh.

If I lived somewhere that could be hit by a hurricane I would have bought a generator long ago and not have to rush and scramble to buy one.

i like the other the other angle that has been introduced into the discussion to, out side of capitalism vs government intrusion:  the individual.  If prices get high enough, desperation might set in and they take it from you by force.

Then I dont understand your point. It sounded like (in multiple posts) that you were saying gougers were being shot had some relation to their pricing and that the desire for less govt intervention was ironic if police were needed after a crime. Neither of those things is true. Maybe you can correct my misperception of your position.

Hurricane Ike death toll was 195 after hitting the 4th largest city in the nation and leaving much of that city without utilities for weeks.  Somehow even with price controls people weren't starving to death around the city.  

My obvious point is obvious and it is doubtful I will correct your writing of your own narrative in the slightest.

It's all good though.  That's how GD go...

And I am not working against you, but in truth it was due in no small part to inefficient government intervention.  

My agency sent ambulances down there to help.  I work just outside of Dallas.

Irrelevant. All of it. People vastly overpay for stuff all the time. Thousands of business models are built on the idea that there will always be consumers who do stupid stuff with their money. Those people operated out of their own perceived self interest after the storm just like they did before the storm by paying too much. Doesnt mean they got gouged. Doesnt mean they are in a panic. It means they havent mastered personal finance.

Freedom means allowing people to make choices you wouldnt make yourself.

Agreed - I dont think I am going to get on the same page with a guy that believes markets occasionally sort themselves out with guns, which is exactly what you stated earlier.

LOL, MMMKay sweet pea.

If you never seen the fights started by price gougers and their consumers, that is ok.  I did not make a blanket statement about markets sorting themselves out with guns.  There was a context.  

I am not sure why you could not see that context.  Are you by chance an autist?  That is one possible explanation, but I don't know you so that may not apply.

I had trouble finding gas for exactly two fucking days after Ike.  The issue wasn't actually lack of fuel for the most part so much as it was no power to pump the gas that was there.  There was a store on montrose if I remember correctly that was getting constant shipments of fuel as were most any station that had power.    Those stations that had power often had lines but I never waited longer than an hour maybe 1.5.  Yes you couldn't just drive up and fill up but there were numerous stations being constantly re supplies and the ones I know of existed from channelview to rice village and points between.  

The injured party is not made whole, because there are no assets to take to do so.

In either the theater, or the bus crash, being legal, or not, to commit the primary act that caused people to be injured has no bearing on the presence of resources to make the inured party whole, nor does it prevent the primary act from being performed.

I am at something of a loss to understand the relevance -what are you getting at?

Holy fuck you people are fucking obtuse.  The fucking question I answered specifically was why we're people buying generators out of trucks if they were available.  And I answered it based on my own observations so it isn't fucking irrelevant TO THE FUCKING QUESTION I WAS ANWERING. 

Let me axe you a question...

Without looking it up, can you tell me what the maximum sustained winds in Houston were during Ike?

Getting "fucked over" would have been all of the water being sold out because it was being sold at artificially low prices. People who didnt really need it would buy it in that case, and the desperate guy in your story would have gone without.

Allowing prices to adjust to demand ensures that those who need it most can purchase what they need (read: willing to pay higher prices). Its called efficient allocation of resources, and its a cornerstone of basic economics.

Gunowners struggled to understand this when luxury goods were in short supply following 2013... so I understand why peoples feels are even more hurt in this instance.

I cant tell the difference between this place and DU sometimes

Well my point was, back when I was on this point, was when somebody is not made whole, and they NEED certain healthcare to get by...Who ends up providing the very basic needs for that person.  

When that person doesn't get the extra they need to function with society, and they are on a very basic level, How do they get by.


Common answer these days...Government dole.  

So is it a good idea to have a law against yelling fire in a crowded theater?

My belief bottom line is still fewer laws legislating how we live, but there are consequences.

That time.

One data point.

There are other data points.

How did that "chocolate city", New Orleans, do when Hurricane Katrina blew through?

I seem to recall shitloads of people died, and it took a long time to recover, even with the government bringing down outside supplies ....

@1srelluc just tacitly defended Texas. 1st sign of the apocalypse.

Been looking for men on horses....

No - it is not a good idea to have a law against yelling fire in a crowded theater.

1.  It may inhibit or delay someone from yelling fire in a crowded theater in the event of a fire, which would cause more lives lost and more property damage.
2.  It will not stop the mentally ill, the drug addled, and the malicious from yelling fire in a crowded theater - they will do so anyway.
3.  it does NOTHING, zero, zip, nada to compensate those that may have been harmed by someone shouting "fire" in a crowded theater,

In your estimation, what possible good could such a law accomplish?  It is the speech equivalent of an assault weapons ban.

We are not at odds here.  I agree with you.

If gougers are worth putting a bullet in, why would anyone give them business? Clearly there are moral folk willing to sell them the same goods at a reasonable price. 

Having been in the Rita evacuation where the entire Gulf Coast of Texas evacuated, I can tell you how wrong you are.

The break down occurs the minute the pumps are empty and all the gasoline is gone.

If gas goes up a couple of dollars, that means money is available to reward trucks, drivers, and numerous other distribution people for working when everyone else is trying to leave.