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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:19:25 PM EDT
[#1]
I'll take three
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:21:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When people start dying in them from IEDs. IEDs and mines will always be a threat in some form regardless of the level of conflict. However we have organic heavy solutions pretty much locked in nowadays. That doesn't mean we will never need the ability to exercise speed and agility. I would argue in an actual modern conflict speed and agility are more important that power and protection. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:22:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of my time was without a vehicle at all. So when the bullets started flying we shot back. IED's? Why are you on the pavement? "According to the Pentagon, more than half to two-thirds of Americans killed or wounded in combat in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been victims of IED explosions." Ask all those guys, I guess. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:23:21 PM EDT
[#4]
The concept worked in WWII, Korea and Vietnam.
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:23:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a oldy. Just upgrade the old WWII jeeps.  Or take the armor off the Humvees and get them back to the weight they were designed for. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:23:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "According to the Pentagon, more than half to two-thirds of Americans killed or wounded in combat in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been victims of IED explosions." Ask all those guys, I guess. It's a big reason why these offroad vehicles and helicopters made more sense than taking roads and risking hitting IED's. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:23:51 PM EDT
[#7]
This is going to be one of those things that is brilliant when used correctly and gets a bad reputation when used incorrectly.
Also, curious that the design goal for this was to fit an entire squad while the Army is hesitant to put a whole squad in the Bradley replacement due to the potential to lose a whole squad at once. But I also haven’t figured out yet why the Army doesn’t have different squad sizes for mech and light infantry. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:26:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it doesn't come with crank windows for $20k I don't want it Boy do I have a deal for you. No windows, no doors, no roof, no radio, and with a low price of $87,000. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:27:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is going to be one of those things that is brilliant when used correctly and gets a bad reputation when used incorrectly. Also, curious that the design goal for this was to fit an entire squad while the Army is hesitant to put a whole squad in the Bradley replacement due to the potential to lose a whole squad at once. But I also haven’t figured out yet why the Army doesn’t have different squad sizes for mech and light infantry. Just because it can fit a squad doesn't mean it will lol |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:27:44 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "According to the Pentagon, more than half to two-thirds of Americans killed or wounded in combat in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been victims of IED explosions." Ask all those guys, I guess. It’s not the right vehicle for highways in Iraq. It’s meant more for, say, a swampy area in Ukraine. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:28:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What am I missing? Is it supposed to be a CUCV replacement? A Deuce and a half replacement? What is the point of these again? Moving troops to locations where they can fight? You mean like a Deuce and a half that can also be used to move the platoons extra stuff? I'm not seeing the point of these other than spend taxpayer money for more useless shit that won't help the grunts. But it comes with free 6 months of SirusXM!  I'm not military but can see how this thing is not a duece and not a freaking MRAP, neither of which fit inside a helicopter. There is no one size fits all vehicle, this thing fits a certain need somewhere. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:28:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "According to the Pentagon, more than half to two-thirds of Americans killed or wounded in combat in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been victims of IED explosions." Ask all those guys, I guess. Or you can ask me, because its kind of my fucking thing and whatnot. This vehicle doesn't necessarily add to or detract from our CIED capability. Its a completely separate (conventional) evolutionary path meant to augment our existing heavy capabilities with the ability to project light forces using a mobility platform that is designed around airmobile operations. They all still have JLTVs at a minimum on the MTOE, im not really sure what the pearl clutching is all about. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:28:35 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just because it can fit a squad doesn't mean it will lol I know. Which is why I wonder why they even pretended. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:29:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aren't those about $300k each? 10% to the big guy |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:33:14 PM EDT
[#15]
If they say it will seat 9 you will be lucky to get 6 in it with all their shit.
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:34:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know. Which is why I wonder why they even pretended. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just because it can fit a squad doesn't mean it will lol I know. Which is why I wonder why they even pretended. If they never intend for a full squad to use them, why not use a regular 4wd pickup with a crew cab? It would fit 4 and have plenty of space in the bed for their packs and additional supplies. All they would have to do is beef up the suspension, lift it and put giant mud tires on it. People drive shit like that all over off road. Maybe this thing is really meant for special forces types? |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:34:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they say it will seat 9 you will be lucky to get 6 in it with all their shit. If they have to smash people into it it'll work. But I highly doubt you would ever plan to put a whole squad into one little vehicle. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:35:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they never intend for a full squad to use them, why not use a regular 4wd pickup with a crew cab? It would fit 4 and have plenty of space in the bed for their packs and additional supplies. All they would have to do is beef up the suspension, lift it and put giant mud tires on it. People drive shit like that all over off road. Maybe this thing is really meant for special forces types? SF already had the vehicles they want. If they say this is meant for the infantry it's meant for the infantry. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:35:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah it's a deuce and a half.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What am I missing? Is it supposed to be a CUCV replacement? A Deuce and a half replacement? What is the point of these again? Moving troops to locations where they can fight? You mean like a Deuce and a half that can also be used to move the platoons extra stuff? I'm not seeing the point of these other than spend taxpayer money for more useless shit that won't help the grunts. Yeah it's a deuce and a half. I know it's not a deuce. I just don't see the point in it. From the article they basically say want to move troops forward so they can dismount then attack on foot. On the other hand, the Infantry Squad Vehicle, with its open sides, light body, and giant tires, is about moving soldiers into place, Sounds like a deuce to me which we already have. Yes it's cool. Yes I'd have enjoyed riding around in one when I was in. S again I'll ask, what am I missing? What's the point? |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:37:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is going to be one of those things that is brilliant when used correctly and gets a bad reputation when used incorrectly. Also, curious that the design goal for this was to fit an entire squad while the Army is hesitant to put a whole squad in the Bradley replacement due to the potential to lose a whole squad at once. But I also haven’t figured out yet why the Army doesn’t have different squad sizes for mech and light infantry. I'd say the obvious answer is that they're using different approaches to survivability for different situations. This vehicle is meant to be used by light forces using speed, maneuverability, and low profile to avoid contact during infil and deliver the biggest possible force at the objective. In that context, maximizing seats makes sense because it reduces the number of people who have to stay at the VDO, increasing force on the target. A Bradley replacement, on the other hand, is expected to accompany tanks, face tanks, and rely on those tanks to provide a significant amount of force. In that situation maximizing the number of infantry you can deliver is much less important and a catastrophic vehicle kill is much more likely. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:37:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, it was meant to be a replacement for vehicles that stopped being used 30 years ago. Nailed it. Slow moving convoys of vehicles moving to the front are a thing of the past with modern artillery and missiles and the almost infinite capability for ISR via satellite, EW, and UAS. Smaller, faster units need to push forward on helicopters to seize key terrain and neutralize long range threats to heavier formations to create a safety bubble for them to move forward in. They also need to be able to support themselves with things like EW and SHORAD requiring a mobility platform, and have the ability to rapidly displace once they get targeted. Its also small enough to conceal from aerial observation...kind of a big deal nowadays. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What am I missing? Is it supposed to be a CUCV replacement? A Deuce and a half replacement? What is the point of these again? Moving troops to locations where they can fight? You mean like a Deuce and a half that can also be used to move the platoons extra stuff? I'm not seeing the point of these other than spend taxpayer money for more useless shit that won't help the grunts. Yes, it was meant to be a replacement for vehicles that stopped being used 30 years ago. Nailed it. Slow moving convoys of vehicles moving to the front are a thing of the past with modern artillery and missiles and the almost infinite capability for ISR via satellite, EW, and UAS. Smaller, faster units need to push forward on helicopters to seize key terrain and neutralize long range threats to heavier formations to create a safety bubble for them to move forward in. They also need to be able to support themselves with things like EW and SHORAD requiring a mobility platform, and have the ability to rapidly displace once they get targeted. Its also small enough to conceal from aerial observation...kind of a big deal nowadays. Thank you. This is what I was asking for. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:37:22 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know it's not a deuce. I just don't see the point in it. From the article they basically say want to move troops forward so they can dismount then attack on foot. On the other hand, the Infantry Squad Vehicle, with its open sides, light body, and giant tires, is about moving soldiers into place, Sounds like a deuce to me which we already have. Yes it's cool. Yes I'd have enjoyed riding around in one when I was in. S again I'll ask, what am I missing? What's the point? A deuce makes sense when you're using roads. This makes sense for not using roads. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:38:01 PM EDT
[#23]
I'd rather just air assault in a blackhawk.
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:38:21 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know it's not a deuce. I just don't see the point in it. From the article they basically say want to move troops forward so they can dismount then attack on foot. On the other hand, the Infantry Squad Vehicle, with its open sides, light body, and giant tires, is about moving soldiers into place, Sounds like a deuce to me which we already have. Yes it's cool. Yes I'd have enjoyed riding around in one when I was in. S again I'll ask, what am I missing? What's the point? It’s air droppable and can roll off or be slung under helicopters. You can’t do that with larger trucks, and larger trucks aren’t as mobile and require more fuel. Also the “deuce” was replaced by the FMTV 25 years ago. This is very different. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:39:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know. Which is why I wonder why they even pretended. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just because it can fit a squad doesn't mean it will lol I know. Which is why I wonder why they even pretended. Because 99% of the people involved with buying it will never ride in it, so you got to fluff the paper specs. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:39:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know it's not a deuce. I just don't see the point in it. From the article they basically say want to move troops forward so they can dismount then attack on foot. On the other hand, the Infantry Squad Vehicle, with its open sides, light body, and giant tires, is about moving soldiers into place, Sounds like a deuce to me which we already have. Yes it's cool. Yes I'd have enjoyed riding around in one when I was in. S again I'll ask, what am I missing? What's the point? You're missing two critical facts. First, the deuce and a half has been out of service for decades. Second, it's replacement, the LMTV, won't fit in a Chinook. The point is to have a vehicle that can be flown part of the way if necessary. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:44:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Can you get Emma and both her moms on that?
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:45:57 PM EDT
[#28]
not green enough needs to be a full EV no hybrid cheatin'
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:46:01 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:46:51 PM EDT
[#30]
I want one but I'll probably be happy with a 2k dollar go kart
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:49:35 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems pretty retarded (so typical of government contracts) when they could have used something off the shelf like, oh I don't know, the J8s that other countries are using for the same purpose.  Much less opportunity to boondoggle money for politicians and sweet retirement jobs for the generals that way. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:51:29 PM EDT
[#32]
IEDs and mines won't be a problem
Drones on the other hand... |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:52:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s air droppable and can roll off or be slung under helicopters. You can’t do that with larger trucks, and larger trucks aren’t as mobile and require more fuel. Also the “deuce” was replaced by the FMTV 25 years ago. This is very different. Yeah another poster explained all that up the page. I wan't trying to be snarky or difficult, I just really didn't understand the point. Upteen trillions spent on uniform changes, OMG we're gonna get a new firearm, and tranny classes have made me more than a little skeptical when the pentagon says they need anything. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 6:53:36 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're missing two critical facts. First, the deuce and a half has been out of service for decades. Second, it's replacement, the LMTV, won't fit in a Chinook. The point is to have a vehicle that can be flown part of the way if necessary. Thank you. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:14:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Seems cool but I’m skeptical.
This will get used incorrectly and cause issues like hmmwvs and the constant revisions. Someone on a lobbying firm for Ford right now is trying to make squads 12 man units by telling congress it’s cheaper. As fast as it is, mobility will still be outmatched by enemy ISR and fires. Honestly at this point I just hope this helps us lose the next war faster. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:20:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly at this point I just hope this helps us lose the next war faster. I'm glad you've finally made it out into the open as a terrible soldier. It took some courage. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:21:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can walk or you can ride but either way you get rained on. Just wait until they bolt 10 tons of armor to it trying to make it an APC... |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:23:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just wait until they bolt 10 tons of armor to it trying to make it an APC... Or they can just climb into the JLTV they already own. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:23:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm glad you've finally made it out into the open as a terrible soldier. It took some courage. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Honestly at this point I just hope this helps us lose the next war faster. I'm glad you've finally made it out into the open as a terrible soldier. It took some courage. I’m just more honest about how things went. It was fun and all but it’s time to admit that nothing anyone did there really mattered and wasn’t worth the time money or lives. You’re an amazing soldier I have no doubt, we still lost. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:24:47 PM EDT
[#40]
I feel sorry for the poor bastards that have to sit in those seats behind the rear wheels
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:25:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What does this offer that a Land Verber (Cruise or Rove) hasn't offered for the last 30 years? |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:29:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that invisible armor is neat. Not it's intended role. This is for the guys who would otherwise be walking. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:30:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What does this offer that a Land Verber (Cruise or Rove) hasn't offered for the last 30 years? An electrical system that doesn't start fires and oil that stays in the crank case. In the case of the Rover. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:32:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Creates carbon? No go. Back to horse drawn wagons & horse pharts.  At AUSA GM showed an electric version. Of course out in the field it will be recharged by diesel gens |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:35:26 PM EDT
[#45]
I can see a use for this on a conventional battlefield. Especially one with non-urban terrain.
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:36:51 PM EDT
[#46]
I had an M-151 jeep light infantry reconnaissance/sniper platoon in the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea. You could put 4 soldiers in a jeep (though a real stretch with all their gear and winter packing list), and two jeeps in a Chinook.
The jeeps were gutless but light and narrow. You could traverse roads and cart track in some pretty wicked terrain, to include during the winter (snow-ice) and spring monsoon mud (it rained every day the month of June). Each jeep had a VRC- radio, M60 machinegun, troops had their organic M16/M203, M21 sniper rifles, and (on the books but never issued) two 60mm light mortars. The platoon sergeant had a trailer to move fuel, food, and supplies. Camo nets went up when we stopped. When I left, the Army replaced them with Humvees. Rice paddy dikes couldn't hold them because they were too wide and heavy. They had a lot more space for humans and gear, and the diesel was a lot more powerful. You had to eyeball recon your route well so you didn't high-center your frame. Fast forward to Iraq and Afghanistan, bound to hard-ball main supply routes, and add stinky people with IEDs. The wheel turns again. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:37:19 PM EDT
[#47]
The Flyer 72 was the better military vehicle, but GM had better lobbyists and lower cost.
Optional doors, windshield, roof, and other built-in niceties are missing from the ISV. Kharn |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:38:38 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A deuce makes sense when you're using roads. This makes sense for not using roads. You keep saying this but do you think they are going rock crawling? They will be used in a road of some sort. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:40:15 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What does this offer that a Land Verber (Cruise or Rove) hasn't offered for the last 30 years? Compensated seats on the board. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:41:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You keep saying this but do you think they are going rock crawling? They will be used in a road of some sort. I did plenty of cross country while overseas. And in a more conventional war we'd be doing a lot more. Our trucks got stuck a lot. MRAP's were worse. This would have been great to have. |
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