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Link Posted: 10/26/2013 7:37:34 AM EDT
[#1]
Folks in the North sure do get all puffed up about that slavery shit.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 7:50:19 AM EDT
[#2]
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Why would I give a flying fuck what CNN thinks or says?
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+1
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 7:51:52 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
Folks in the North sure do get all puffed up about that slavery shit.
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Well they have to justify 300,000 dead Yankee soldiers and their beloved Tyrant President Lincoln also dead. They had to be fighting for something.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 7:53:01 AM EDT
[#4]

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I believe that if it really was a flag for traitors and racists CNN would fly it over their headquarters.
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Nailed it

 





Link Posted: 10/26/2013 7:56:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 7:58:05 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


Well they have to justify 300,000 dead Yankee soldiers and their beloved Tyrant President Lincoln also dead. They had to be fighting for something.
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Folks in the North sure do get all puffed up about that slavery shit.


Well they have to justify 300,000 dead Yankee soldiers and their beloved Tyrant President Lincoln also dead. They had to be fighting for something.


I don't know. I'd be less concerned about 300,000 dying to preserve the union and a lot more concerned about 260,000 dying to preserve the "right" to keep other men enslaved.

Nobody here is saying the North fought to free the slaves. But there are a whole lot of Southerners here denying that the South seceded and in turn fought in order to maintain their oppressive system of slavery. Ironically enough, they seceded because they feared that Lincoln would work to free the slaves, but he didn't do anything in regards to slavery until after the South seceded. Emancipation was punishment.

So really, they brought about the very thing that they were afraid of. Talk about one of the great historical blunders.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 7:58:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Who watches or listens to what CNN says? Only the simpletons do...
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:04:34 AM EDT
[#8]
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Grow up in the south and experience legitimate racism from people that rock nothing but Conf. battle flags and you're going to associate the flag with racism.  Get told stories of burning crosses and sheets standing in the yards of your not so distant relatives while flying the flag and you'll likely begin to associate the flag with racism.  These are my experiences.  I do automatically associate the confederate flag with racism but I don't automatically assume someone with it on their shirt or bandana or truck is racist.  

Southerners were not traitors they were people who wanted to preserve their way of life. Wholly understandable, though wholly immoral and racist. Slavery was the driver of the southern economy. The obvious threat to it was definitely a big reason for secession.  It was pretty much THE reason for SC, GA, MS and TX.  "States rights" did in fact mean "states rights to retain, use, and expand slave labor."  

The North didn't fight specifically to end slavery (at first), but the south definitely fought to keep it.
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Hell, I saw much more of that stuff growing up in Michigan, than I have in the South. Southern racist stereotype is just a stupid stereotype.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:06:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:11:56 AM EDT
[#10]
Our state song "Maryland, My Maryland" was written in support of the Confederacy and hasn't been changed. Look up the lyrics. Our Crosslands or the Calvert Family code of arms banner on our star flag was the "unofficial" flag of Marylanders who supported secession.

Will they write an article on that next?
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:19:40 AM EDT
[#11]
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Because the North fought to preserve the Union, not free the slaves. The South fought for the "states' rights" to keep and expand slavery.

A lot of Confederate apologists point to quotes from Lincoln and to the fact that Northern states had slavery as conclusive proof that the Civil War wasn't about freeing the slaves. They are of course right on that count. But it's a convenient device to divert attention away from what the South was fighting for. Sure, not every Southerner was fighting to keep their slaves. They didn't all own slaves. Hell, there were blacks that fought for the South. But what issue caused the South to begin to secede from the Union?

All you have to do is look toward the Articles of Secession. That issue was slavery, pure and simple. One need only look to the 1860 Democratic National Convention to see the roots of the secession. Stephen Douglas was the front-runner for the nomination, but he espoused the "popular sovereignty" position on slavery: it was up to each state whether they wished to have slavery. The voters get to decide. Well, that wasn't good enough for many of the Southern delegations. They wanted an explicitly pro-slavery candidate. The convention broke up and there were two Democratic nominees. All it took to cause the Southern states to begin seceding was the election of a Republican (i.e. abolitionist president), which was at least partially the fault of the Southern delegation's rabid insistence upon adopting a pro-slavery candidate rather than one who was only in favor of allowing the citizenry of each state to choose to be a slave state or free state.
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Because the North fought to preserve the Union, not free the slaves. The South fought for the "states' rights" to keep and expand slavery.

A lot of Confederate apologists point to quotes from Lincoln and to the fact that Northern states had slavery as conclusive proof that the Civil War wasn't about freeing the slaves. They are of course right on that count. But it's a convenient device to divert attention away from what the South was fighting for. Sure, not every Southerner was fighting to keep their slaves. They didn't all own slaves. Hell, there were blacks that fought for the South. But what issue caused the South to begin to secede from the Union?

All you have to do is look toward the Articles of Secession. That issue was slavery, pure and simple. One need only look to the 1860 Democratic National Convention to see the roots of the secession. Stephen Douglas was the front-runner for the nomination, but he espoused the "popular sovereignty" position on slavery: it was up to each state whether they wished to have slavery. The voters get to decide. Well, that wasn't good enough for many of the Southern delegations. They wanted an explicitly pro-slavery candidate. The convention broke up and there were two Democratic nominees. All it took to cause the Southern states to begin seceding was the election of a Republican (i.e. abolitionist president), which was at least partially the fault of the Southern delegation's rabid insistence upon adopting a pro-slavery candidate rather than one who was only in favor of allowing the citizenry of each state to choose to be a slave state or free state.



That's not entirely true. From the Georgia articles of secession:
The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury. The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade. Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects. Theses interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency. The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States. Wielding these great States it held great power and influence, and its demands were in full proportion to its power. The manufacturers and miners wisely based their demands upon special facts and reasons rather than upon general principles, and thereby mollified much of the opposition of the opposing interest. They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. These reasons prevailed, and they received for many years enormous bounties by the general acquiescence of the whole country.

But when these reasons ceased they were no less clamorous for Government protection, but their clamors were less heeded-- the country had put the principle of protection upon trial and condemned it. After having enjoyed protection to the extent of from 15 to 200 per cent. upon their entire business for above thirty years, the act of 1846 was passed. It avoided sudden change, but the principle was settled, and free trade, low duties, and economy in public expenditures was the verdict of the American people. The South and the Northwestern States sustained this policy. There was but small hope of its reversal; upon the direct issue, none at all.


Although one can state that slavery was an issue, one cannot state it was the ONLY issue for the south. During the recession of the 1850's industry in the North was devastated, but the agrarian south was not affected much at all as they sold their goods overseas. Increased taxation and tariffs on southern agrarian goods utilized to shore up failing northern industry was a big point of contention, to the point that southern cotton was taxed just as heavily to go to northern mills as it used to be taxed to go to British mills and taxation on export to England was even increased much , much more. In addition, southern cotton growers sought to build their own mills to make their own cloth to cut out the middle man, and this upset northern (got to realize that the house is population based, so at the time, the south was always outnumbered in representation) industrialists so they got the government to tax mill equipment out of reach of southern planters so that the only cloth mills working in the US were the in north.  Shit like that still happens today--wealthy donors buy off politicians to cut them and their industry a sweet deal and kill off the competition.

Although slavery was an issue, to say that it was the only issue is to hold a very superficial understanding of the facts of the history. Economic issues and wealthy Northern industrialists wanting to kill of the competition was the basis of the lead up to the war.  That the Confederacy was a bunch of rednecks who just wanted to keep slaves (when slaveowners were a decided minority of citizens in the South) is pure propaganda and historical revisionism.

All this from a former Michigander.  I'm from Holly (next to Fenton.)
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:21:26 AM EDT
[#12]
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I guarantee you I didn't learn about the 1860 Democratic National Convention and the articles of secession in grade school.

It's not my fault that many in the South would really just rather forget about their "peculiar institution" and therefore gloss over the key role the preservation of slavery held in their motivation for secession. The historical record clearly indicates why the Southern states began seceding. They spell it out for us in their own documents. If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore history, be my guest.

Again, might some states (i.e. Virginia) have had other reasons? Yes. But ultimately, when you trace it all back to its foundations VA wouldn't have seceded had Lincoln not threatened to invade to preserve the Union which was imperiled by the secession of other states over the issue of...

Slavery.
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I'm a displaced Michigander. VA isn't really my state. I'm only here for school.


So in actuality, you have no idea what you're talking about, except for what you learned in grade school. Please tell us more.


I guarantee you I didn't learn about the 1860 Democratic National Convention and the articles of secession in grade school.

It's not my fault that many in the South would really just rather forget about their "peculiar institution" and therefore gloss over the key role the preservation of slavery held in their motivation for secession. The historical record clearly indicates why the Southern states began seceding. They spell it out for us in their own documents. If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore history, be my guest.

Again, might some states (i.e. Virginia) have had other reasons? Yes. But ultimately, when you trace it all back to its foundations VA wouldn't have seceded had Lincoln not threatened to invade to preserve the Union which was imperiled by the secession of other states over the issue of...

Slavery.



That's the point...most states would not have succeeded had not the North threatened to INVADE.  I'd assume that you'd get a bit pissed off if someone proposed to drive an invading army over your land.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:22:44 AM EDT
[#13]
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Law school.

Don't get me wrong. I love the South (though this cesspool of Arlington is something of an exception. I generally get along with Southerners better than other Yankees. I just cannot fathom how so many Southerners are so willing to completely ignore the documents which demonstrate why they seceded. "It wasn't about slavery! It was about states' rights!" Well, which states' rights, exactly? "Uhhhhh..." Yeah, that's what I thought. The right to keep slaves.
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Law school. Great, that's exactly what our country needs and will make us such a better place--another lawyer.  Don't sue me bro!
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:24:35 AM EDT
[#14]
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If the south would have freed it's slaves then fired on Ft Sumter would we still be having this debate?
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Shrug, if the North followed the Constitution, would we be having it?
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:26:02 AM EDT
[#15]
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Call them serfs instead of slaves, give them a few rights, presto you have instant cannon fodder, support from England and a lower class labor force when you have won independence. Afterwards you can deport excess populations of undesireables or conduct progroms of the subserviant classes.
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If the south would have freed it's slaves then fired on Ft Sumter would we still be having this debate?


Probably not. But that begs the question, why would states like GA and SC free their slaves when they seceded to preserve them?

Call them serfs instead of slaves, give them a few rights, presto you have instant cannon fodder, support from England and a lower class labor force when you have won independence. Afterwards you can deport excess populations of undesireables or conduct progroms of the subserviant classes.



Lets not get on about the system of indentured servitude (slavery by contract or by judicial decision) that the North loved, loved, loved.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:27:50 AM EDT
[#16]
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Our state song "Maryland, My Maryland" was written in support of the Confederacy and hasn't been changed. Look up the lyrics. Our Crosslands or the Calvert Family code of arms banner on our star flag was the "unofficial" flag of Marylanders who supported secession.

Will they write an article on that next?
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Yep, Our state song calls President Lincoln a "tyrant," "despot," and a "vandal".  
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:35:03 AM EDT
[#17]
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This, I will be out for a few hours and I predict several pages of consternation by the time I get back....
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<popcorn.gif>

This, I will be out for a few hours and I predict several pages of consternation by the time I get back....

I'm baaack and like I said 4 pages, I might have expected more but has anyone had a time out or a ban yet??.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:38:32 AM EDT
[#18]
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I'm baaack and like I said 4 pages, I might have expected more but has anyone had a time out or a ban yet??.
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<popcorn.gif>

This, I will be out for a few hours and I predict several pages of consternation by the time I get back....

I'm baaack and like I said 4 pages, I might have expected more but has anyone had a time out or a ban yet??.


Nope. It's been a rather civil war...
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:41:06 AM EDT
[#19]
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Lol, come on The South tried to keep blacks from marrying who they wanted, living where they wanted, working where they wanted even after the war, owning guns, and they only stopped acting like some third world shithole when the North made it clear they were in for ass kicking 2 if they kept it up  
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Not a single slave ever came to the US on a Confederate ship.

They all came on USA flagged ships and European countries.

Lol, come on The South tried to keep blacks from marrying who they wanted, living where they wanted, working where they wanted even after the war, owning guns, and they only stopped acting like some third world shithole when the North made it clear they were in for ass kicking 2 if they kept it up  


Anti misogyny laws lasted in California until 1948, Maryland until 1967, Indiana until 1967, Michigan 1887, Ohio 1883, Rhode Island 1881, Maine 1883, Delaware 1967.
Also in 1913, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, which had abolished its anti-miscegenation law in 1843, enacted a measure (not repealed until 2008[21]) that prevented couples who could not marry in their home state from marrying in Massachusetts.[

A lot of anti-interracial marriage laws came on the books after the war and in the North and Northwest, so you can't lay dislike of interracial marriage at the feet of southerners.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:42:48 AM EDT
[#20]
It is.".every single hard core racist I've ever seen, flies the confederat flag.


Every single one
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:45:37 AM EDT
[#21]
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CSA was not in favor of men owning guns so they could fight back against an oppressive government.
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Dude, that is exactly what the CSA did.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:47:58 AM EDT
[#22]
CNN, rewriting history.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:49:11 AM EDT
[#23]
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It is.".every single hard core racist I've ever seen, flies the confederat flag.


Every single one
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You know that isn't true:




Nation of Islam, Black panthers, SWAPO, ANC, ACORN, Rainbow Coalition, etc are all racist organizations who do not use the Confederate Flag. Are you one of those idiots who thinks only white people can be racist?
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:52:32 AM EDT
[#24]
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It is.".every single hard core racist I've ever seen, flies the confederat flag.


Every single one


You know that isn't true:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Bpp_logo.PNG
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=9dvmUQPt14LG5M&tbnid=LyjJ0VdkaWjZ9M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.timeslive.co.za%2Fpolitics%2F2013%2F06%2F18%2Fbuthelezi-loses-speech-writer-to-the-anc&ei=r_FrUu-DG8XPkQfVtYCIAQ&bvm=bv.55123115,d.eW0&psig=AFQjCNG1ZohKAY-RUAkGNEnEcRqJDV1tUw&ust=1382892320680367
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR02pjRzTsXW67B9p1AXttwdHjB3JYzRq8cWZ2InFjOtgmhC-CYuMltZ0Y6

Nation of Islam, Black panthers, SWAPO, ANC, ACORN, Rainbow Coalition, etc are all racist organizations who do not use the Confederate Flag. Are you one of those idiots who thinks only white people can be racist?


Even I was going to point that out...
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:54:02 AM EDT
[#25]
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Folks in the North sure do get all puffed up about that slavery shit.
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Folks in the south sure do love a disaster that killed 600k men for nothing
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:55:50 AM EDT
[#26]
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When the war started, Union states  Delaware, Maryland, Missouri, Kentucky, New Jersey, and the capital of the Union, Washington DC, all had slavery.

Why didn't they free their own slaves before they invaded the South?


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On the flip side why did they free them while the war was going on??.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:57:22 AM EDT
[#27]
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On the flip side why did they free them while the war was going on??.
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When the war started, Union states  Delaware, Maryland, Missouri, Kentucky, New Jersey, and the capital of the Union, Washington DC, all had slavery.

Why didn't they free their own slaves before they invaded the South?



On the flip side why did they free them while the war was going on??.

They didn't. The emancipation proclamation only freed the slaves in the areas still in rebellion and exempted those regions under northern control. The Northern army actually used slave labor in conquered territories.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:02:30 AM EDT
[#28]
I think at the time, it was a right of the states to secede from a union that was far less centralized than today. So, the term "traitors" in reference to the confederacy is a bit of revisionist history. Our state of California fought one battle for the north. We got our butts kicked by Arizona rebels.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:02:45 AM EDT
[#29]
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By that logic, the American flag is also a flag of traitors. It comes down to whether you believe that breaking off and establishing your own country is treason.
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Brits still call our revolution the american civil war...
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:03:56 AM EDT
[#30]
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This CNN comedian/political hack claims that the confederate flag was a flag of traitors and racist and makes a small connection to the Tea Party. I really can't stand the government sponsored media.

link
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nah, it's just symbolic of an economically backwards way of life, with the social and moral attitudes that typically accompany such a thing. if they want to self-identify as the slow kids, let them.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:04:49 AM EDT
[#31]
Should remind CNN that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and the KKK the product of the Democratic party...
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:05:32 AM EDT
[#32]
So it comes down to this... would you fight for imperial subjugation (the Northern cause) or states rights (the Southern cause)...
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:07:51 AM EDT
[#33]
I think modern day it would be political, not regional or based on demographic.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:08:46 AM EDT
[#34]
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So it comes down to this... would you fight for imperial subjugation (the Northern cause) or states rights to own slaves (the Southern cause)...
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Fixed it for you.

There was tyranny being fought for by both sides.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:09:38 AM EDT
[#35]
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By that logic, the American flag is also a flag of traitors. It comes down to whether you believe that breaking off and establishing your own country is treason.
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Same thing I was going to post when I saw the thread title.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:09:50 AM EDT
[#36]
No shortage of self-righteousness in this thread.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:13:49 AM EDT
[#37]
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Fixed it for you.

There was tyranny being fought for by both sides.
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So it comes down to this... would you fight for imperial subjugation (the Northern cause) or states rights to own slaves (the Southern cause)...


Fixed it for you.

There was tyranny being fought for by both sides.


I guess you missed the fact that slavery was legal, and the North also had slavery.  
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:14:16 AM EDT
[#38]
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When the war started, Union states  Delaware, Maryland, Missouri, Kentucky, New Jersey, and the capital of the Union, Washington DC, all had slavery.

Why didn't they free their own slaves before they invaded the South?


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Respect for State's rights.  The Federal government had no legal authority.

Now, the power over occupied territories captured during a war is a different matter...
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:15:39 AM EDT
[#39]
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Lets not get on about the system of indentured servitude (slavery by contract or by judicial decision) that the North loved, loved, loved.
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If the south would have freed it's slaves then fired on Ft Sumter would we still be having this debate?


Probably not. But that begs the question, why would states like GA and SC free their slaves when they seceded to preserve them?

Call them serfs instead of slaves, give them a few rights, presto you have instant cannon fodder, support from England and a lower class labor force when you have won independence. Afterwards you can deport excess populations of undesireables or conduct progroms of the subserviant classes.



Lets not get on about the system of indentured servitude (slavery by contract or by judicial decision) that the North loved, loved, loved.

It could have been their road to victory.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:17:26 AM EDT
[#40]
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I guess you missed the fact that slavery was legal, and the North also had slavery.  
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So it comes down to this... would you fight for imperial subjugation (the Northern cause) or states rights to own slaves (the Southern cause)...


Fixed it for you.

There was tyranny being fought for by both sides.


I guess you missed the fact that slavery was legal, and the North also had slavery.  


No. I didn't miss it. Once again, the North didn't fight to free the slaves. They fought to preserve the Union.

The Southern secessionist movement started because they feared Lincoln would restrict their ability to own slaves. Again, you really need to start looking a little closer at the documents of secession and key events like the 1860 Democratic National Convention[s]. From the Southern perspective this really did all start because of one big issue: SLAVERY and their desire to preserve their "peculiar institution" as it was referred to by the VP  of the CSA.

Sure, there were other tangential issues, but the big spark that lit the conflagration was a fear that slavery "rights" were going to be diminished or repealed. The fact of the matter is that their secession and the subsequent Civil War resulted in the very thing that they were trying to avoid.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:23:25 AM EDT
[#41]
A couple of the states secession statements have been posted, it might be helpful to post all of them.  I don't know if this is 100% accurate but I will assume that it is.

All states ordinances of secession...

I have not read all of them of course but all but one that I have read mentions slavery.  Someone let me know if this link is waaay off or somehow different from the actual ordinances.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:23:41 AM EDT
[#42]
im down for a rematch.   wont turn out like the dictator hopes.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:24:20 AM EDT
[#43]
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Libs never know what this one is....

http://i.imgur.com/6JqTWBz.jpg

for example a bleeding heart lib asked me why I had a british flag on my Jeep once..... "I like England was my answer"

ETA: I live on the northern flank of a battlefield and hopefully will be participating in the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Franklin next year.
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Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:26:03 AM EDT
[#44]
What do I think? I think CNN can kiss my rebel dick.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:26:50 AM EDT
[#45]
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Nailed it  


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I believe that if it really was a flag for traitors and racists CNN would fly it over their headquarters.
Nailed it  



Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:27:35 AM EDT
[#46]
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Should remind CNN that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and the KKK the product of the Democratic party...
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the KKK was the product of social conservatives in the south.

clinging to arbitrary labels like R and D while ignoring foundational ideologies just makes one look desperate.


Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:29:21 AM EDT
[#47]

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Hell, I saw much more of that stuff growing up in Michigan, than I have in the South. Southern racist stereotype is just a stupid stereotype.
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Grow up in the south and experience legitimate racism from people that rock nothing but Conf. battle flags and you're going to associate the flag with racism.  Get told stories of burning crosses and sheets standing in the yards of your not so distant relatives while flying the flag and you'll likely begin to associate the flag with racism.  These are my experiences.  I do automatically associate the confederate flag with racism but I don't automatically assume someone with it on their shirt or bandana or truck is racist.  



Southerners were not traitors they were people who wanted to preserve their way of life. Wholly understandable, though wholly immoral and racist. Slavery was the driver of the southern economy. The obvious threat to it was definitely a big reason for secession.  It was pretty much THE reason for SC, GA, MS and TX.  "States rights" did in fact mean "states rights to retain, use, and expand slave labor."  



The North didn't fight specifically to end slavery (at first), but the south definitely fought to keep it.






Hell, I saw much more of that stuff growing up in Michigan, than I have in the South. Southern racist stereotype is just a stupid stereotype.
Yeah, I saw a whole bunch more racism in NY (city and surrounding) and NJ than in the FL panhandle and AL.

 
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:29:45 AM EDT
[#48]
What's more noble?

Defending your lands and homes from an invasion sent by a Tyrant.

Invading your neighbor to enforce said Tyrants rule.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:30:35 AM EDT
[#49]
Think I'll buy one and hang it up.  Maybe we al should with don't tread on me flag as well.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:31:38 AM EDT
[#50]
It was a flag of traitors.



You think the Founding fathers had any illusions that wouldn't be labeled traitors and hung?
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