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Link Posted: 1/29/2018 10:02:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Great video.  Thanks for posting.   Looks like we have lots of arm chair Patton/MacArthur's in this thread.   I understand Secretary Mattis is hiring.
Link Posted: 1/29/2018 10:09:21 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
Bring back the battleships. MAGA
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Yeah Ya Rite....
Link Posted: 1/29/2018 10:20:44 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:

Going to have echo this philosophy.

Why bother to expend the resorces to take a fortified island, or eventual airfield ( which was the only potential danger as a fighter base) when you could destroy the airfield and bypass the fortress altogether?

I.e. if you destroy the airfield, there is no threat to the high altitude bombers........so

Why didn’t we do this?

Why was it essential to the war effort to put boots on the ground at Iwo Jima?
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Needed Iwo for fighter escorts and crippled bombers returning to Sipan.
Link Posted: 1/29/2018 10:39:40 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Shitty analysis, only viewing dollar costs, and not time and availability of assets. A recovered shot up plane that might not fly again, and provide parts for those that can be repaired, in a theater that is a logistical nightmare that's worth it's weight in gold.  A plane on the bottom of the ocean doesn't keep others flying.

But wait, it gets worse, now with your policy, you're also putting other assets at risk, subs to pick up ditching crews more often, and closer to the home islands.
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Given that strategic bombing is a waste with conventional munitions the expenditure of lives to secure bases for them can’t be justified.
Link Posted: 1/29/2018 10:41:37 PM EDT
[#5]
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July '45 was the first A-bomb test. Nobody knew whether it would work. The island hopping campaign started in '43. For the second-guessers, what was the alternative? Let Japan keep the Pacific?
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Naval blockade. Just like actually worked.
Link Posted: 1/29/2018 10:44:05 PM EDT
[#6]
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I cite mines to give supporters of strategic bombers some reason to agree.

Although that figure you posted doesn’t measure the denial of areas.
Link Posted: 1/29/2018 11:04:22 PM EDT
[#7]
I always assume that the reason for taking Iwo was multi-factored. The Admiralty obviously pinned certain islands on a map as "vital" to the war in the Pacific. Peleliu and Midway were also tagged as being somewhat useless. We had 6mo of defeats after entering the war, and battles were vital to keep up the morale. I would question how many casualties they would have allowed to take some of these islands, regardless of benefits offered by its capture.

Then you have the draw of Imperial Navy ships that an invasion would have. We all know that these islands could be skipped without supplies and men from a Navy drop, so this was another draw for attacking islands IMO. We had to destroy the Imperial Navy, and it was a formidable task. They offered a lifeline to all Japanese troops outside of the mainland, as well as a significant threat to all of our holdings in the Pacific. Don't forget that the West and East coasts were always "at the ready" for an invasion and it was believed to be a real threat at that time (Aleutian Islands as ex.)

Regardless of who had the island before, taking "savage" held land would help the war effort, so there is an obvious propaganda edge to it. Taking an island in "Tojo's backyard" is a huge morale boost and shows some sort of closure to the war, both to the US pop and the Japanese.

Finally, you have the option of a supply storage and concentration point for the upcoming invasion of the mainland. It is not efficient to sail supplies across the ocean as they are needed and a collection point would have been needed. Remember, the invasion would have included more supplies and men than D-day. Fighter support would have been needed for ground forces, and this would allow shorter range land based planes to help the mainland invasion.

I don't feel bad for the Japs during that war. They committed atrocities on civilians and soldiers alike and had no respect for the "rules of war". I could go on about their actions during the war. All of that to say: after years of war, being stuck on an island compared to Hell, living underground and in mud, parasites, etc, as well as starvation and dehydration....imagine being on that island during the air and naval bombardment, knowing you were about to either be killed or have to kill yourself. There was absolutely ZERO options off that island as a Japanese soldier.
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:12:53 AM EDT
[#8]
Where those "frogmen" at the 4:15 mark?  Looked like they went out with nothing more than a knife!
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:25:21 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:

We should have filled the Pacific with subs and just starved them out.  However, the public wanted violent retribution and that is what they got.

Americans want heroes even if they die for pointless objectives.
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Aerial delivered mines were the most efficient ship killers in the Pacific.

Those were mines delivered from B-29s.
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:25:55 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:

Cheaper to just let them crash.
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And replace what crews?
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:26:41 AM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

That's my analysis.  Airframe costs have little to do with development costs.  Subs/destroyers can pick up the crews.
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The Navy were running CSAR in flying boats and subs, but it was still a hope against hope.
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:27:47 AM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:

And replace what crews?
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Bombers were a waste anyway.
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:28:23 AM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:

The island hopping campaign was questionable in value.
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Beat Mac's version of WWI in the Jungle by a damn sight, and actually caused the Japanese surrender.
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:31:04 AM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:

Needed Iwo for fighter escorts and crippled bombers returning to Sipan.
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Fighter escorts into the Home Islands for SEAD and the destruction of the Japanese radar and SIGINT facility at Iwo.
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:31:17 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
We had a couple types of dive and torpedo bombers earlier in the war, I'm not sure which ones we had in 1944-45.  Wiki makes it sound like a bunch of escort carriers provided CAS, but I don't know for sure.

There was a thread here a while ago, that explained what aerial gunnery and bombing was like even in Vietnam (with some mention of what had come before). I can't remember all the specifics, but suffice to say, getting an airplane going 300-400mph to drop a bomb, and to even hit within a football field-sized target would count as exceptional accuracy back then.

There were just too many physical factors happening too quickly to achieve accuracy...people literally don't have reflexes fast enough, and senses accurate enough, to hit that "sweet spot" release with any reliability. Then add ground fire, disorientation, bad weather, simply not flying at perfect right angles to a target, and so on...and the picture gets worse from there.

1/2 second too soon or too late could mean hundreds of yards long or short of a target at those speeds.

(by my rough paper napkin math (400mph/60mins/60seconds/2 x 5280 feet in a mile), 1/2 second is about 300 feet of error), and we're talking bunkers that, if they could even be seen, had a vulnerable region no bigger than a car.
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You needed to get a direct hit to be effective, and the bunkers were very well camouflaged.  They were generally invisible.
The best way to knock out the positions was through the aperture, and that really, as in WWI, required tank support.
Iwo's Sulfuric sand wasn't great for tanks, either, but with Japanese AT being really weak, the sherman was in its element.
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:32:34 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:

Bombers were a waste anyway.
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The Bombers, no? The "go it alone" USAAF/USAF operational planning 5 rings of bullshit model? Yes.
Link Posted: 1/30/2018 12:34:25 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
Japanese territory. It was to show Tojo we are coming. Propaganda.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Going to have echo this philosophy.

Why bother to expend the resorces to take a fortified island, or eventual airfield ( which was the only potential danger as a fighter base) when you could destroy the airfield and bypass the fortress altogether?

I.e. if you destroy the airfield, there is no threat to the high altitude bombers........so

Why didn’t we do this?

Why was it essential to the war effort to put boots on the ground at Iwo Jima?
Japanese territory. It was to show Tojo we are coming. Propaganda.
Taking out their supply routes, and their supply cashes was a huge objective.

It was also very difficult for the Japanese to react logically to our advances.  Their doctrine mandated they counter attack...  we kind of used that to our advantage

Taking Iwo Jima was incredibly demoralizing to the Japanese. It was supposed to be the staging point for the US land invasion of Japan.  Thank God that never had to happen.
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