The POMCUS sites in Germany..... - Page 2

General » General Discussion

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The POMCUS sites in Germany..... (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 8/13/2011 5:56:51 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
REFORGER '85, that was one cold bastard

YES IT WAS

Posted: 8/13/2011 5:57:36 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

OP, have you read The Third World War, August 1985 by Sir John Hackett? I am reading it now and it seems like it would be right up your alley.

Harold Coyle's novel "Team Yankee" was based on Hackett's book. Written from the perspective of a tank Company Commander and it puts you right in the turret of an M1 tank during Hackett's WWIII scenario. An excellent read if you're into the Cold War.

Posted: 8/13/2011 5:58:30 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I was in Giebelstadt, near Wurzburg, from '80 to '83. 3rd Aviation Battallion (Combat), 3rd Infantry Division.

Ahhhhhh. You were one of the Geibelpeople

Most of the units went to Kitzingen, Harvey and Larson Barracks.

Yea! I think Charlie Company was in Schweinfurt.

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:00:35 PM EDT

[#4]

All I know is I sure as hell dont miss Hoenfels or Graf. Wildchicken was ok though. In the summer that is.

Best place was that urban site. Bonnland. Kick ass MOUT site. Was a real town at one time.

Best memory of Graf-

Bear in mind I was not Stationed in Germany. I was stationed in Italy in an airborne unit but we used the posts in Germany to train. Well one time we were in Graf (camp Normandy) and we had a night off on base. They had a bus driving around taking people around base because its pretty big. Well the buss was full of troopers from my unit and the bus stopped to pick up a guy wanting a ride. It was night.

As soon as this guy hops on the bus he starts with "Fking paratroopers, bunch of dickheads taking over the NCO club and drinking all the booze. Dickheads this and dickheads that"

Well the bus driver stops the bus and turns on the interior lights while about 40 of us were putting on our berets. We were putting them on because you know, we were getting off the bus at that moment, as was he.

Miles from the NCO club.

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:10:58 PM EDT

[#5]

USAREUR brats and vets, check out the following website.....it will really take you back.
Forgotten Memories

I was a brat myself........Babenhausen Kaserne 82-85, Heidelberg 87-91

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:12:56 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Schweinfurt from 1978-1981 3ID 2/30I

Got two fine weeks of guard duty at the ammo/POMCUS site at Miesau Army Depot. Yep, it sucked.

Ancient History:

Nazi eagle still on the building: the army just chipped the swastika out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/Armydays358.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/Armydays360.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/img038.jpg

Ledward barracks...been there too. 1-15 INF, 3rd ID '93-'95. The 2nd picture's the front of the base from out on that main drag. And I'm pretty sure the 3rd is the parking lot in front of the PX. We deployed from Ledward for a 6 month UN tour in Macedonia as part of Operation Able Sentry.
I left Schweinfurt in Aug. '95 to go to Ft. Stewart, GA. A few months after I arrived the 24th ID reflagged to the 3rd and all their unit memorabilia stuff got shipped to Stewart including that big bulldog statue designed by Walt Disney!
And yes, I did the 2 week guard rotation at Miesau but that was when I was stationed at Baumholder.

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:14:09 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

ACK!!! I see wildchicken on the map!
worst 3 years of my life! /shudder

Ack! The Chicken!

Visited it twice.

I never knew how cold Germany could be in the middle of the Summer. The second time I was ready. I dressed almost like it was Winter, sans gloves and field jacket liners.

I'm always going to remember the time it as so foggy at a Rifle Range we couldn't see the nearest targets. I'm also going to remember the weather changing 5 times in 2 hours: Sunny, rain, snow, fog, sunny. The snow was especially interesting in August.

My platoon had a very wet compass course there one time.

When I heard it was given back to the Germany I thought it was grounds for war from them.

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:15:30 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Schweinfurt from 1978-1981 3ID 2/30I

Got two fine weeks of guard duty at the ammo/POMCUS site at Miesau Army Depot. Yep, it sucked.

Ancient History:

Nazi eagle still on the building: the army just chipped the swastika out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/Armydays358.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/Armydays360.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/img038.jpg

Ledward barracks...been there too. 1-15 INF, 3rd ID '93-'95. The 2nd picture's the front of the base from out on that main drag. And I'm pretty sure the 3rd is the parking lot in front of the PX. We deployed from Ledward for a 6 month UN tour in Macedonia as part of Operation Able Sentry.

I left Schweinfurt in Aug. '95 to go to Ft. Stewart, GA. A few months after I arrived the 24th ID reflagged to the 3rd and all their unit memorabilia stuff got shipped to Stewart including that big bulldog statue designed by Walt Disney!

And yes, I did the 2 week guard rotation at Miesau but that was when I was stationed at Baumholder.

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:19:23 PM EDT

[#9]

Damned android keyboard.........I was trying to say that my Dad retired in 93 at Stewart, still lives in the area.

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:25:35 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:

REFORGER '85, that was one cold bastard

YES IT WAS

My balls are still cold.

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:34:10 PM EDT

[#11]

I'm headed over to Wurzburg in a few weeks. Leighton was turned over to the University.

Posted: 8/13/2011 6:56:05 PM EDT

[#12]

Christensen Barracks, Bindlach (near Bayreuth), where we were from 62-64, is now a Muslim slum. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a breeding ground for terrorists now. How ironic.

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:14:09 PM EDT

[#13]

I have a question. During the REFORGER excercises, did they roll out and play wargames in the streets of these towns. I talked to a guy one time and he said he was a tanker. He said the they would do drills and they would hop in their tanks and tear ass through town and if they smashed a car or crashed through a fence Uncle Sam was right behind with a checkbook to fix the mess. any truth to this?

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:20:37 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
I have a question. During the REFORGER excercises, did they roll out and play wargames in the streets of these towns. I talked to a guy one time and he said he was a tanker. He said the they would do drills and they would hop in their tanks and tear ass through town and if they smashed a car or crashed through a fence Uncle Sam was right behind with a checkbook to fix the mess. any truth to this?

Lots of truth to it, and the Germans loved it. They were paid exponentially more for their property than it was worth. They counted on it. Hell, when we landed our helicopters on their fields for war games, they were compensated for every last sugar beet that wasn't alowed to grow, every landing skid rut in the dirt, etc. Plus, the business we gave the little grocery stores in the tiny towns made their year in sales.

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:21:08 PM EDT

[#15]

I was on a website not to long ago and learned damn near every barracks you could think of has been turned over.

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:30:54 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

I have a question. During the REFORGER excercises, did they roll out and play wargames in the streets of these towns. I talked to a guy one time and he said he was a tanker. He said the they would do drills and they would hop in their tanks and tear ass through town and if they smashed a car or crashed through a fence Uncle Sam was right behind with a checkbook to fix the mess. any truth to this?

There were maneuver areas marked off on maps with out of bounds and off limits areas. A lot of stuff was done in the winter when the ground was frozen to reduce "maneuver damage".

Not a REFORGER exercise, but you get the idea:

TOC set up in some Germans back yard

cruising through some town

Going from some shitty mud hole to the strass (road) would get the Germans really, really pissed:

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:35:50 PM EDT

[#17]

Ever stop and think of what a minor miracle it is we never fought that war?

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:43:26 PM EDT

[#18]

No idea. But I wish they had some surplus.

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:45:00 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

I never knew how cold Germany could be in the middle of the Summer. The second time I was ready. I dressed almost like it was Winter, sans gloves and field jacket liners.

I'm always going to remember the time it as so foggy at a Rifle Range we couldn't see the nearest targets. I'm also going to remember the weather changing 5 times in 2 hours: Sunny, rain, snow, fog, sunny.

Yup. Wildchicken had screwy weather for sure.

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:49:16 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I'm headed over to Wurzburg in a few weeks. Leighton was turned over to the University.

You lucky dawg. Were you a Marne Dog in the past?

I miss going to the PX at Leighton. It was like returning to the 'Land of the big PX'.

Spent 3 full years at Larson Barracks in Kitzingen. I wonder whatever happened to that place?

Posted: 8/13/2011 7:56:42 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have a question. During the REFORGER excercises, did they roll out and play wargames in the streets of these towns. I talked to a guy one time and he said he was a tanker. He said the they would do drills and they would hop in their tanks and tear ass through town and if they smashed a car or crashed through a fence Uncle Sam was right behind with a checkbook to fix the mess. any truth to this?

Lots of truth to it, and the Germans loved it. They were paid exponentially more for their property than it was worth. They counted on it. Hell, when we landed our helicopters on their fields for war games, they were compensated for every last sugar beet that wasn't alowed to grow, every landing skid rut in the dirt, etc. Plus, the business we gave the little grocery stores in the tiny towns made their year in sales.

I saw a payment voucher that was made out to Herman after a platoon of M163 Vulcans and an M113 took a 'shortcut' through a field of beets. It was a shitload of marks.

I personally got my ass reamed for running over a chicken in the road. Bn Cdr 'bout had a fit explaining to me that Uncle Sugar had to pay for that chicken, how many eggs it would lay, how many chickens would hatch from them and how many eggs they would take to market. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Worst thing, is I didn't get to take that chicken to NDP and have a good dinner.

Had to eat an old dark brown bagged MRE. It had the beans and muthafukin' franks in it.

Posted: 8/14/2011 12:43:24 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Ever stop and think of what a minor miracle it is we never fought that war?

Everyday.

Posted: 8/14/2011 1:45:15 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
ACK!!! I see wildchicken on the map!

worst 3 years of my life! /shudder

Been there, done that, outgrew the shirt!

Posted: 8/14/2011 9:23:26 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I have a question. During the REFORGER excercises, did they roll out and play wargames in the streets of these towns. I talked to a guy one time and he said he was a tanker. He said the they would do drills and they would hop in their tanks and tear ass through town and if they smashed a car or crashed through a fence Uncle Sam was right behind with a checkbook to fix the mess. any truth to this?

There were maneuver areas marked off on maps with out of bounds and off limits areas. A lot of stuff was done in the winter when the ground was frozen to reduce "maneuver damage".

Not a REFORGER exercise, but you get the idea:

TOC set up in some Germans back yard

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/img011.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/img010.jpg

cruising through some town

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/img100.jpg

Going from some shitty mud hole to the strass (road) would get the Germans really, really pissed:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/img042.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/img047.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/cool-e/img039.jpg

A lot of that had changed when I went back ('93-'95) but on my 1st tour ('87-'89) yeah we were in the towns and fields quite a bit. Mounted and dismounted patrols and road marches through towns. Set up defensive positions in woodlines overlooking rolling fields and countryside. It wasn't just training...it was as close to real-world you could get without being issued live ammo.
REFOGER '88 our company set up in some town's main park along with a German Engineer river crossing unit and a French tank company. We were there for three days partying in the German unit's beer tent and those crazy French tankers had wine stored in every nook and cranny they could stuff a bottle in!

Did an actual river crossing on German barges and maneuvered with the French tanks into the town across the river to set up defensive positions. Really it was just a big dog and pony show demonstration for the NATO big brass but we didn't give a damn. It was three days of allied beer drinking to us...after 1800 hrs. of course!

I was an M113A2 driver for this and a lot more field ops and loved it...except the washrack in winter.

Posted: 8/14/2011 9:36:06 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Jeez, does this bring back some 80's memories.

I spent 4 years assigned in Hanau, but in reality most of the time was in Graf, Vilseck, or Fulda.

Posting from Kaltenbrunn (closer to Graf then to Vilseck - Tank trail is now open to POVs)

Posted: 8/14/2011 9:37:13 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
i was in nurnberg 87-90, on the czech border, 2nd acr

Assigned to 2SCR (Stryker now not Armor)

Posted: 8/14/2011 9:39:59 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Does Graf still hug a root like it did in he 70s ?

Not sure what you mean by that.

The army has put a ton of $$$ into graf. New 3 story hotel is about to open, brand new Motopools, Barracks, new shoppette (24h finally), gas station, PX, commissary, auto skills. I bet I am missing some as well.

Posted: 8/14/2011 9:47:49 AM EDT

[#28]

If you have pics from your time here in Germany, could you post them?

I was at Cambrai Fritsch Kaserne and Kelly barracks in Darmstadt from 2004 to 2008 with 18 months in Babenhausen.

From 2009 till now I am stationed out of Vilseck. I can answer questions if you guys have them.

Mannheim just shut down, even that made be depressed. Lots of good memories from that place.

Posted: 8/14/2011 9:52:35 AM EDT

[#29]

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/Marapr96/ms084.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/aps.htm

Both are good reads on how the Army pre-positions equipment around the world and on ships "just in case."

Not the most current, but it gets the idea across.

Posted: 8/14/2011 9:52:57 AM EDT

[#30]

I was there for the closing of Fulda, Giessen and Frankfurt in the 90s. Hammelburg was the best MOUT training.

Posted: 8/14/2011 9:58:28 AM EDT

[#31]

http://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm

Tons of info and photos.

Posted: 8/14/2011 10:00:40 AM EDT

[#32]

Served 2.5 years ('86-'88) with 2/4 Inf 56th FA (Pershing) in Neu Ulm. Security(towerrat) for the Pershing II Nukes. Old barracks(Nelson Kaserne) is now a police station.

Posted: 8/14/2011 10:02:47 AM EDT

[#33]

tag for later

Posted: 8/14/2011 10:07:13 AM EDT

[#34]

For post 100....

Finthen Army Airfield (8th ID) 1983-1986, with many deployments to Graf, Hoenfels and Wild Chicken.

Turned into a refugee center by the Germans; very sad.

Grafenwhoer (Airfield) 1993-1995. A great place to live, I wouldn't want to visit there (inside the fence).

Posted: 8/14/2011 10:14:30 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Ha, it's funny, Back in my Reserve days, I was in an Training Division in the late 80's. Made up of Drill Sgts and Tank Commanders. The units war time mission was to train 1100 Raw recruits in a 19E (M60 Armor crewman) MOS in 70 days and then follow them over seas to fall in on POMCUS stocks. We always thought that mission was wishful thinking as those stock piles Had to be ID's by the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact and would have been taken out withing the first few days.

As units moved and equipment was upgraded, a lot of the stocks went thru depots and then back stateside or to Nato Allies to help stock there units. Gamma Goats. GOERS,M901 ITV's, M60's. A lot of that was replaced by Bradley's, M-1's, Hemmints,Humvee's, etc.

I was on a acceptance team back in 87-88 for a Reserve unit that was upgrading from Slick M60's to M60A3's. These A3's were coming from Mainz Depot care of Illisheim (sp?)West Germany from 1/13th Armor. As they were moving and getting M-1's.

So a lot of equipment moved around quite a bit as units upgraded and older equipment became obsolete.

IIRC, there was a book written about war-gaming that I read years ago (may still have it here somewhere) that talked about President Reagan's admin directing an exercise at the Pentagon called "Nifty Nugget". It was based on a Soviet invasion and getting reserve component units to Germany to meet RFFs in such a contingency. It was a complete disaster.

Unlike most Pentagon exercises, this one had players actually going to ports and other sites to verify that the plans for such a massive logistical undertaking were plausible. The exercise took longer than most because of it.

Getting units there wasn't as bad a problem (although that plan was flawed as well) as getting them to the battlefield where the fighting was once in-theater. The exercise showed that a lot of assumptions about feeding, equipping, and generally supporting the Soldiers for a war in Europe was a complete fantasy. There were plans to ship equipment like armor from CONUS to Europe that were impossible, for example, because the rail heads no longer existed and the tracks leading to port facilities had been removed years ago, and that little fact wasn't known until someone actually visited and inspected the on-site infrastructure required to execute the plans. Nifty Nugget showed that REFORGER plans were overly optimistic an unsustainable.

A war in Europe with the USSR would have gone nuclear very quickly. Germany would have been leveled.

Posted: 8/14/2011 10:19:03 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
OP, have you read The Third World War, August 1985 by Sir John Hackett? I am reading it now and it seems like it would be right up your alley.

Harold Coyle's novel "Team Yankee" was based on Hackett's book. Written from the perspective of a tank Company Commander and it puts you right in the turret of an M1 tank during Hackett's WWIII scenario. An excellent read if you're into the Cold War.

It wasn't bad, but Harold's dialogue between characters in the book was almost nauseating.

Being an armor officer, he did a good job of explaining the dark details of a high-intensity conventional conflict and how nasty it would be from a tank crew's perspective.

Sir John Hackett was more "big picture" but I doubt if Birmingham would have been the only major population center to take a hit. I think the west-especially the U.S. would have been more badly mauled.

Posted: 8/14/2011 11:45:04 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Served 2.5 years ('86-'88) with 2/4 Inf 56th FA (Pershing) in Neu Ulm. Security(towerrat) for the Pershing II Nukes. Old barracks(Nelson Kaserne) is now a police station.

'85-'87 in Gunzberg, 510th Ord (Security) working out of Site Romeo, Prinz Eugen Kaserne is now a park and Romeo is abandoned.

Posted: 8/14/2011 11:54:57 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
i was in nurnberg 87-90, on the czech border, 2nd acr

Did REFORGER in 87 with 1st Cav. Then 12th Aviation in Germany from 89-91. Lived at Drake-Edwards Kaserne in Frankfurt, and at Wiesbaden.

We picked up our shit from Bremerhaven in 87

Aviator

Posted: 8/14/2011 12:53:16 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ha, it's funny, Back in my Reserve days, I was in an Training Division in the late 80's. Made up of Drill Sgts and Tank Commanders. The units war time mission was to train 1100 Raw recruits in a 19E (M60 Armor crewman) MOS in 70 days and then follow them over seas to fall in on POMCUS stocks. We always thought that mission was wishful thinking as those stock piles Had to be ID's by the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact and would have been taken out withing the first few days.

As units moved and equipment was upgraded, a lot of the stocks went thru depots and then back stateside or to Nato Allies to help stock there units. Gamma Goats. GOERS,M901 ITV's, M60's. A lot of that was replaced by Bradley's, M-1's, Hemmints,Humvee's, etc.

I was on a acceptance team back in 87-88 for a Reserve unit that was upgrading from Slick M60's to M60A3's. These A3's were coming from Mainz Depot care of Illisheim (sp?)West Germany from 1/13th Armor. As they were moving and getting M-1's.

So a lot of equipment moved around quite a bit as units upgraded and older equipment became obsolete.

IIRC, there was a book written about war-gaming that I read years ago (may still have it here somewhere) that talked about President Reagan's admin directing an exercise at the Pentagon called "Nifty Nugget". It was based on a Soviet invasion and getting reserve component units to Germany to meet RFFs in such a contingency. It was a complete disaster.

Unlike most Pentagon exercises, this one had players actually going to ports and other sites to verify that the plans for such a massive logistical undertaking were plausible. The exercise took longer than most because of it.

Getting units there wasn't as bad a problem (although that plan was flawed as well) as getting them to the battlefield where the fighting was once in-theater. The exercise showed that a lot of assumptions about feeding, equipping, and generally supporting the Soldiers for a war in Europe was a complete fantasy. There were plans to ship equipment like armor from CONUS to Europe that were impossible, for example, because the rail heads no longer existed and the tracks leading to port facilities had been removed years ago, and that little fact wasn't known until someone actually visited and inspected the on-site infrastructure required to execute the plans. Nifty Nugget showed that REFORGER plans were overly optimistic an unsustainable.

A war in Europe with the USSR would have gone nuclear very quickly. Germany would have been leveled.

We always thought that was fantasy as well... All thru my Active Duty years the training centered around the Warsaw pact and they painted a bleak picture on how the Tank Divisions and Mechanized and Motorized divisions were equipped. How the Soviets trained for NBC and would train using live chemicals... How much artillery they had and how a preparatory bombardment would have every third shell a Chemical warhead.

How the 10 foot tall Soviet Infantry man was unstoppable, The T-72 was impenetrable.. the BMP's were uncountable cause there were so many.. The MI 24 D's were thick as fleas and had to be shot down with Main gun rds because they were so heavily armed..

Amazing how far we have come since those Heady days... Unless Folks were in Uniform during those days, it's hard to imagine today...

And Don't be hatin on Team Yankee....

I still have the First edition Hard bound.. I remember I ordered it from my local Bookstore (Before Barnes and Noble) and stayed up and read the book from cover to cover... Not a bad book for a At the time Active Duty Major. I read his follow on books like Sword Point and Bright Star... after that I lost interest in his stuff... I imagine it was a nice addition to his retirement pay...

Posted: 8/14/2011 12:59:58 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I was in Giebelstadt, near Wurzburg, from '80 to '83. 3rd Aviation Battallion (Combat), 3rd Infantry Division.

Ahhhhhh. You were one of the Geibelpeople

Most of the units went to Kitzingen, Harvey and Larson Barracks.

I was in Giebelstadt, 80-81, 3rd Bn 67th Air Defense Artillery. Vulcan Gunner

Posted: 8/14/2011 1:06:13 PM EDT

[#41]

I was 1/48 Inf. Cco & S-3 83-86.

We have a Facebook page for the Dragoons from before the change over to the Cotten Bailers
in Gelnhausen.

Posted: 8/14/2011 1:09:26 PM EDT

[#42]

It was all sold to Yuri Orlov.

CP

Posted: 8/14/2011 1:25:52 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I was in Giebelstadt, near Wurzburg, from '80 to '83. 3rd Aviation Battallion (Combat), 3rd Infantry Division.

Ahhhhhh. You were one of the Geibelpeople

Most of the units went to Kitzingen, Harvey and Larson Barracks.

I was in Giebelstadt, 80-81, 3rd Bn 67th Air Defense Artillery. Vulcan Gunner

Kitzingen 3/67 ADA 84-86

Posted: 8/14/2011 8:23:29 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
A war in Europe with the USSR would have gone nuclear very quickly. Germany would have been leveled.

I agree with that. I studied in Freiburg, and got invited to the local Military Historical Research Office. I got to know a lot of the W. German officers there, who, once they saw that I, the American with the long hair and beard, was not only not a terrorist, but was actually interested in history and more modern stuff, I sat in on talks with them. One of the talks was on Iceland in WW2, and how the modern day war, going through Iceland to Europe, as posed by Tom Clancy in a novel (I forget which) they considered an utter fantasy, since, as one Bundeswehr officer put it, "We better hope Ronald Reagan makes the Soviets shit their pants enough to be scared of going to war against NATO, since, if they do, W. Germany will be destroyed to save France and the UK."

The Bundeswehr officers had little illusions about surviving a war with the USSR. The best they hoped for was small conventional conflicts with their neighbors to the East, which the Soviets might not get involved in, which was not likely in 1985-1987 when I was there.

Posted: 8/14/2011 11:27:48 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A war in Europe with the USSR would have gone nuclear very quickly. Germany would have been leveled.

I agree with that. I studied in Freiburg, and got invited to the local Military Historical Research Office. I got to know a lot of the W. German officers there, who, once they saw that I, the American with the long hair and beard, was not only not a terrorist, but was actually interested in history and more modern stuff, I sat in on talks with them. One of the talks was on Iceland in WW2, and how the modern day war, going through Iceland to Europe, as posed by Tom Clancy in a novel (I forget which) they considered an utter fantasy, since, as one Bundeswehr officer put it, "We better hope Ronald Reagan makes the Soviets shit their pants enough to be scared of going to war against NATO, since, if they do, W. Germany will be destroyed to save France and the UK."

The Bundeswehr officers had little illusions about surviving a war with the USSR. The best they hoped for was small conventional conflicts with their neighbors to the East, which the Soviets might not get involved in, which was not likely in 1985-1987 when I was there.

Red Storm Rising