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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:04:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was I the only on to read that as SIG FURRY and think WTF! before realizing it was FURY?  Name checks out. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:04:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Aside from the cartridge how is this vastly different from a PWS POF308 piston AR10?
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:07:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aside from the cartridge how is this vastly different from a PWS POF308 piston AR10? 
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:10:24 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: ... in just about every way. It fixes the gas issue with the gun, particularly when shooting suppressed. User adjustable. Adjustable gas block is cheap and easy. It removes the stupid buffer tube design with a giant spring which incredibly limits the portability of the gun. Gross exaggeration. I own folders that rarely get folded, and I use them a lot. It allows for quick change barrels and hand guards for easier end user configuration. Not a concern for me. Higher rail height, even taller than an MCX, which gets the optics higher, which is more in line with modern shooting technique. It's easy to get an AR optic at the correct height. It comes in a caliber that isn't a glorified varmint cartridge. So do ARs. It is superior at long range, versus the outdated design of the 5.56 cartridge. See last answer. It's Tanodized, which is the superior method of anodization. Different AR makers use various methods of anodizing. Sig does nothing unique. It has traditional and side charging handles. OK, the side handle is nice. It has improved user controls, including ambidextrous mag catch and bolt hold-open/release. Don't care about ambidextrious. Lefties are the Devil's children. Designed to work with modern slings out of the box. So are most modern ARs. Increased service life dramatically by the end users ability to replace high wear components, engineered with materials designed to last far longer Horseshit. Don't buy a carbine length AR, and service life is exceptional. The real question is, why haven't you accepted SIG Sauer USA as your lord and savior yet? https://i.imgur.com/PwaaW1c.jpg But hey, if all of that makes you feel better about wasting money, knock yourself out. I'm sure it's a nice rifle, and equally sure that it will be tough to get parts for in the future. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:11:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The design is fundamentally derived from the AR10, & has the original rear charging handle along with the FA plug. SIG just decided to add the side charger, as it wasn't forbidden by the RFP. It shares small parts, magazines, and is a similar size to an AR10, but that's it. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:20:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But hey, if all of that makes you feel better about wasting money, knock yourself out. I'm sure it's a nice rifle, and equally sure that it will be tough to get parts for in the future. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ... in just about every way. It fixes the gas issue with the gun, particularly when shooting suppressed. User adjustable. Adjustable gas block is cheap and easy. It removes the stupid buffer tube design with a giant spring which incredibly limits the portability of the gun. Gross exaggeration. I own folders that rarely get folded, and I use them a lot. It allows for quick change barrels and hand guards for easier end user configuration. Not a concern for me. Higher rail height, even taller than an MCX, which gets the optics higher, which is more in line with modern shooting technique. It's easy to get an AR optic at the correct height. It comes in a caliber that isn't a glorified varmint cartridge. So do ARs. It is superior at long range, versus the outdated design of the 5.56 cartridge. See last answer. It's Tanodized, which is the superior method of anodization. Different AR makers use various methods of anodizing. Sig does nothing unique. It has traditional and side charging handles. OK, the side handle is nice. It has improved user controls, including ambidextrous mag catch and bolt hold-open/release. Don't care about ambidextrious. Lefties are the Devil's children. Designed to work with modern slings out of the box. So are most modern ARs. Increased service life dramatically by the end users ability to replace high wear components, engineered with materials designed to last far longer Horseshit. Don't buy a carbine length AR, and service life is exceptional. The real question is, why haven't you accepted SIG Sauer USA as your lord and savior yet? https://i.imgur.com/PwaaW1c.jpg But hey, if all of that makes you feel better about wasting money, knock yourself out. I'm sure it's a nice rifle, and equally sure that it will be tough to get parts for in the future. >I don’t value any of these features so that means you’re wasting your money CheckmateAtheists.jpeg |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:24:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: >I don’t value any of these features so that means you’re wasting your money CheckmateAtheists.jpeg I mean it doesnt matter if you paid a dollar for it or a million dollars, it is what it is. On mans trash is another mans treasure and all that. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:34:43 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mean it doesnt matter if you paid a dollar for it or a million dollars, it is what it is. On mans trash is another mans treasure and all that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: >I don’t value any of these features so that means you’re wasting your money CheckmateAtheists.jpeg I mean it doesnt matter if you paid a dollar for it or a million dollars, it is what it is. On mans trash is another mans treasure and all that. And yet just about everyone is evaluating through the lens of the cost, not about the objective features. If it cost $1,000 and was widely available, many peoples opinions would shift. >but muh super duty |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:39:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it cost $1,000 and was widely available, many peoples opinions would shift. If I couldn't resell it immediately I wouldnt take one for free. With the size, weight, and round capacity its a battlerifle. Its not the 50s anymore. Now use that high-pressure technology in a 5.56 or smaller sized casing in an MK18 or smaller rifle and Id be onboard. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:46:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ummmm, no. It shares small parts, magazines, and is a similar size to an AR10, but that's it. Yeah, right, the general shape & component details like the deflector, FA plunger, ejection port cover, (empty) buffer tube stock, etc, etc, ad nauseum just happen to look like an AR for no damn reason.  I don't how many new/different parts, curves, or dimensions SIG added to it. It's an AR derivative design. Nothing wrong with that, but it's what it is, & I have no doubt that was an intentional decision to utilize manual-of-arms familiarity as a sales pitch strategy. The GD/Beretta/TVNC "Genesis" BP is a relatively more radical move for the Army in that regard. I still think the BP + TVNC ammo is a more elegant design because it takes advantage of the longer-barrel-in-a-shorter-package approach to operate at normal ~60K psi pressures, & so the round can thus be utilized by legacy arms with a simple barrel change to 6.8mm & benefit from the weight savings. Conversely, with the 80K+ psi 277 FURY, these 2 SIG candidates would be the only guns in the entire .mil armory that can utilize the round. 6.8 VTC is also the lighter cartridge. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:48:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I couldn't resell it immediately I wouldnt take one for free. With the size, weight, and round capacity its a battlerifle. Its not the 50s anymore. Now use that high-pressure technology in a 5.56 or smaller sized casing in an MK18 or smaller rifle and Id be onboard. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If it cost $1,000 and was widely available, many peoples opinions would shift. If I couldn't resell it immediately I wouldnt take one for free. With the size, weight, and round capacity its a battlerifle. Its not the 50s anymore. Now use that high-pressure technology in a 5.56 or smaller sized casing in an MK18 or smaller rifle and Id be onboard. Wow, it’s almost like that’s why it’s interesting and a potential feather in the cap of firearms technology, where material science comes together and begins to further develop to accommodate higher pressure rounds that are designed much better than the outdated cartridges that are still common. It’s crazy, that might be like, the whole motivational reason someone would have for getting one of these. And it’s almost like the reason it even exists in it’s current form is based on specifications provided to those who developed it, with consideration of the capability of the ammo commonality between it and a belt fed counterpart. It’s almost like the support of it on the commercial market will lead to additional development of hybrid cased ammunition. My main interest in .277 FURY isn’t even in semi-automatic platforms. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:54:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow, it’s almost like that’s why it’s interesting and a potential feather in the cap of firearms technology, where material science comes together and begins to further develop to accommodate higher pressure rounds that are designed much better than the outdated cartridges that are still common. It’s crazy, that might be like, the whole motivational reason someone would have for getting one of these. And it’s almost like the reason it even exists in it’s current form is based on specifications provided to those who developed it, with consideration of the capability of the ammo commonality between it and a belt fed counterpart. It’s almost like the support of it on the commercial market will lead to additional development of hybrid cased ammunition. My main interest in .277 FURY isn’t even in semi-automatic platforms. I mean if you are getting it as a neat dead end technology to hang on wall thing I guess. Do you own an XM8 too? I bet you a sleeve of peeps that this does not get selected for NGSW, either through the cancellation of the program or 6.8TVC (also stupid) winning. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:56:38 PM EDT
[#13]
I need a link to the Virtus failure thread.
Also, OP does make some good points. We cannot constantly assume the AR will always be the do all, be all rifle. At some point something will surpass it and I’d rather not be the guy telling everyone something is bullshit before I can even try it out. And I really want some 277 and a barrel for my Cross. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:58:42 PM EDT
[#14]
Sounds great if, in fact, there were actual "material science breakthroughs". The breech is going to be subjected to the higher chamber pressures to accelerate the round up to ~3K fps from the 13" barrel. What's the barrel material used in the SPEAR?
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Posted: 3/19/2022 5:59:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mean if you are getting it as a neat dead end technology to hang on wall thing I guess. Do you own an XM8 too? I bet you a sleeve of peeps that this does not get selected for NGSW, either through the cancellation of the program or 6.8TVC (also stupid) winning. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wow, it’s almost like that’s why it’s interesting and a potential feather in the cap of firearms technology, where material science comes together and begins to further develop to accommodate higher pressure rounds that are designed much better than the outdated cartridges that are still common. It’s crazy, that might be like, the whole motivational reason someone would have for getting one of these. And it’s almost like the reason it even exists in it’s current form is based on specifications provided to those who developed it, with consideration of the capability of the ammo commonality between it and a belt fed counterpart. It’s almost like the support of it on the commercial market will lead to additional development of hybrid cased ammunition. My main interest in .277 FURY isn’t even in semi-automatic platforms. I mean if you are getting it as a neat dead end technology to hang on wall thing I guess. Do you own an XM8 too? I bet you a sleeve of peeps that this does not get selected for NGSW, either through the cancellation of the program or 6.8TVC (also stupid) winning. Have a lot of obscure weird stuff. I’m actually pissed for not jumping on a Steyr ACR I had the opportunity to buy, along with many other things I’ve passed up over the years. Would absolutely buy an XM8 if given the opportunity. It feels weird having to explain gun collecting on a gun forum. But we can’t all be as cool as you. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:04:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It feels weird having to explain gun collecting on a gun forum. Why? Its called AR15.com of course we like AR15s here. Im sure on Granite.com people who collect sedimentary rocks have to explain themselves too. Gonna get an RM277? They are supposed to release those too. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:06:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have a lot of obscure weird stuff. I’m actually pissed for not jumping on a Steyr ACR I had the opportunity to buy, along with many other things I’ve passed up over the years. Would absolutely buy an XM8 if given the opportunity. It feels weird having to explain gun collecting on a gun forum. But we can’t all be as cool as you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wow, it’s almost like that’s why it’s interesting and a potential feather in the cap of firearms technology, where material science comes together and begins to further develop to accommodate higher pressure rounds that are designed much better than the outdated cartridges that are still common. It’s crazy, that might be like, the whole motivational reason someone would have for getting one of these. And it’s almost like the reason it even exists in it’s current form is based on specifications provided to those who developed it, with consideration of the capability of the ammo commonality between it and a belt fed counterpart. It’s almost like the support of it on the commercial market will lead to additional development of hybrid cased ammunition. My main interest in .277 FURY isn’t even in semi-automatic platforms. I mean if you are getting it as a neat dead end technology to hang on wall thing I guess. Do you own an XM8 too? I bet you a sleeve of peeps that this does not get selected for NGSW, either through the cancellation of the program or 6.8TVC (also stupid) winning. Have a lot of obscure weird stuff. I’m actually pissed for not jumping on a Steyr ACR I had the opportunity to buy, along with many other things I’ve passed up over the years. Would absolutely buy an XM8 if given the opportunity. It feels weird having to explain gun collecting on a gun forum. But we can’t all be as cool as you. Collecting guns is neato, no one asked you to explain that. The premise of your thread wasn’t that collecting guns is neato, it was that the Sig Spear is a vast improvement over the AR-15, which apparently is very debatable. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:09:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why? Its called AR15.com of course we like AR15s here. Im sure on Granite.com people who collect sedimentary rocks have to explain themselves too. Gonna get an RM277? They are supposed to release those too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It feels weird having to explain gun collecting on a gun forum. Why? Its called AR15.com of course we like AR15s here. Im sure on Granite.com people who collect sedimentary rocks have to explain themselves too. Gonna get an RM277? They are supposed to release those too. Because it’s touted as the worlds largest firearms community, not the worlds largest AR-15 community, which in and of itself would be a whole etymological debate about Armalite Rifles, which would only go to reinforce my own argument about either the SPEAR or the MCX being an improvement over an AR-15, in which people endlessly reference parts that are not from an AR-15 as being equivalent to the improvements gained from the platforms which I am specifying. I think it’s fugly, and not particularly interested in it for multiple reasons, but we will see what that looks like when it releases. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:11:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Collecting guns is neato, no one asked you to explain that. The premise of your thread wasn’t that collecting guns is neato, it was that the Sig Spear is a vast improvement over the AR-15, which apparently is very debatable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wow, it’s almost like that’s why it’s interesting and a potential feather in the cap of firearms technology, where material science comes together and begins to further develop to accommodate higher pressure rounds that are designed much better than the outdated cartridges that are still common. It’s crazy, that might be like, the whole motivational reason someone would have for getting one of these. And it’s almost like the reason it even exists in it’s current form is based on specifications provided to those who developed it, with consideration of the capability of the ammo commonality between it and a belt fed counterpart. It’s almost like the support of it on the commercial market will lead to additional development of hybrid cased ammunition. My main interest in .277 FURY isn’t even in semi-automatic platforms. I mean if you are getting it as a neat dead end technology to hang on wall thing I guess. Do you own an XM8 too? I bet you a sleeve of peeps that this does not get selected for NGSW, either through the cancellation of the program or 6.8TVC (also stupid) winning. Have a lot of obscure weird stuff. I’m actually pissed for not jumping on a Steyr ACR I had the opportunity to buy, along with many other things I’ve passed up over the years. Would absolutely buy an XM8 if given the opportunity. It feels weird having to explain gun collecting on a gun forum. But we can’t all be as cool as you. Collecting guns is neato, no one asked you to explain that. The premise of your thread wasn’t that collecting guns is neato, it was that the Sig Spear is a vast improvement over the AR-15, which apparently is very debatable. It’s obviously not that debatable, as not very many sound arguments have been posted that aren’t in specific reference to price or “muh parts availability”. And yet most of the features themselves are all things that are highly desirable in the “AR Aftermarket”, when in this case there are really eloquent design decisions made on the platform as a whole. But we have to ignore all that for whatever reason. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:18:55 PM EDT
[#20]
I love America! Where else in the world can we purse swing about one of countless firearms available to us? We clearly have a long way to go on gun rights, but it's pretty awesome to be in a position to poke each other over a gun.
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:21:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet just about everyone is evaluating through the lens of the cost, not about the objective features. If it cost $1,000 and was widely available, many peoples opinions would shift. >but muh super duty When you're not getting the weapon platform paid for by .gov then it only makes sense to not only look at objective pro/cons but price factoring too. It's a must to measure the value of the system. At this point for me and probably others is that the price gap is far too wide at this time in order to justify those said pros over old cartridges or platforms. It's just not a good value cost right now. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:43:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s obviously not that debatable, as not very many sound arguments have been posted that aren’t in specific reference to price or “muh parts availability”. And yet most of the features themselves are all things that are highly desirable in the “AR Aftermarket”, when in this case there are really eloquent design decisions made on the platform as a whole. But we have to ignore all that for whatever reason. your fist post seemed lighthearted and half joking, and almost qualified as entertainment ( ). now you seem truly butthurt that no one else is onboard with a "new" rifle with all the bells and whistle that look good on paper:muh quick change barrel muh quick change handguard muh folding stock muh niche more powerfuller caliber muh lighting cuts out the ass this rifle isn't the the first to do any and/or all of those, but some reason *SIG cough* this iteration is the answer to your prayers. it's just another future tech rifle that is heavy and bulky. you disappoint me future  |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:43:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you're not getting the weapon platform paid for by .gov then it only makes sense to not only look at objective pro/cons but price factoring too. It's a must to measure the value of the system. At this point for me and probably others is that the price gap is far too wide at this time in order to justify those said pros over old cartridges or platforms. It's just not a good value cost right now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And yet just about everyone is evaluating through the lens of the cost, not about the objective features. If it cost $1,000 and was widely available, many peoples opinions would shift. >but muh super duty When you're not getting the weapon platform paid for by .gov then it only makes sense to not only look at objective pro/cons but price factoring too. It's a must to measure the value of the system. At this point for me and probably others is that the price gap is far too wide at this time in order to justify those said pros over old cartridges or platforms. It's just not a good value cost right now. But “This design is better than that design” is a different argument than “This rifle is better than that rifle for x use case”. If we’re comparing the Falcon 9 Heavy to a Model Estes rocket, you can’t say the Estes is a better rocket because of price. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:45:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: your fist post seemed lighthearted and half joking, and almost qualified as entertainment ( ). now you seem truly butthurt that no one else is onboard with a "new" rifle with all the bells and whistle that look good on paper:muh quick change barrel muh quick change handguard muh folding stock muh niche more powerfuller caliber muh lighting cuts out the ass this rifle isn't the the first to do any and/or all of those, but some reason *SIG cough* this iteration is the answer to your prayers. it's just another future tech rifle that is heavy and bulky. you disappoint me future Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s obviously not that debatable, as not very many sound arguments have been posted that aren’t in specific reference to price or “muh parts availability”. And yet most of the features themselves are all things that are highly desirable in the “AR Aftermarket”, when in this case there are really eloquent design decisions made on the platform as a whole. But we have to ignore all that for whatever reason. your fist post seemed lighthearted and half joking, and almost qualified as entertainment ( ). now you seem truly butthurt that no one else is onboard with a "new" rifle with all the bells and whistle that look good on paper:muh quick change barrel muh quick change handguard muh folding stock muh niche more powerfuller caliber muh lighting cuts out the ass this rifle isn't the the first to do any and/or all of those, but some reason *SIG cough* this iteration is the answer to your prayers. it's just another future tech rifle that is heavy and bulky. you disappoint me future Not butthurt, just addressing arguments that people are making. I like arguing. That’s nothing new. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:50:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Nice looking rifle. The extended top rail is interesting. The hand guard looks awful to me, but I haven't handled one.
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:52:35 PM EDT
[#26]
I am mostly mad at OP for not posting it with pop music.
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Posted: 3/19/2022 6:53:36 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nonsense. Sig doesn’t support the firearms they produce and drops them and all support with a quickness. I can buy standard AR parts anywhere and everywhere. Yep, broken firearm is now junk. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:02:15 PM EDT
[#28]
New to arfcom, only been into firearms 4/5 years - this thread makes me sad for gun culture. OP makes a lot of good points about the platform, but is also trying to flex in a douchey way. Respondents bring up valid considerations, but also throwing out emotional statements. Love my firearms and friends who share the passion, but theres a weird sad side to gun culture.
The SPEAR is super sick... |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:10:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New to arfcom, only been into firearms 4/5 years - this thread makes me sad for gun culture. OP makes a lot of good points about the platform, but is also trying to flex in a douchey way. Respondents bring up valid considerations, but also throwing out emotional statements. Love my firearms and friends who share the passion, but theres a weird sad side to gun culture. The SPEAR is super sick... OP is obviously a huge douche. But OP is also parodying the firearms community 10 years ago, where everything was “game-changers”, in additions to the previous threads on the SPEAR on here, where people also said a bunch of stupid stuff. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:15:52 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I need a link to the Virtus failure thread. Also, OP does make some good points. We cannot constantly assume the AR will always be the do all, be all rifle. At some point something will surpass it and I’d rather not be the guy telling everyone something is bullshit before I can even try it out. And I really want some 277 and a barrel for my Cross. I agree and I'm all for it, but sig is not going to be the company to do it. I bought a 716 3 gun and it was a dumpster fire. sig would not stand behind it and because of the proprietary parts, I had no aftermarket options to fix it. Also helped a buddy fix his mcx that sig blamed on operator error. Locked up gas switch, piece of brass shaving was the cause. Where did the brass come from? All the failures to extract. Stiffer extractor spring helped, but it was so comically overgassed it was a band aid at best. Garbage products from a garbage company. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:23:01 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New to arfcom, only been into firearms 4/5 years - this thread makes me sad for gun culture. OP makes a lot of good points about the platform, but is also trying to flex in a douchey way. Respondents bring up valid considerations, but also throwing out emotional statements. Love my firearms and friends who share the passion, but theres a weird sad side to gun culture. The SPEAR is super sick... Hello. Are you sure that you like icky guns? I mean, I would totally understand if you do not like them. They are gross and icky to me too  , and people bickering about what they like and do not like is very sad  I feel sorry for them and myself for even reading the comments 
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:30:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But “This design is better than that design” is a different argument than “This rifle is better than that rifle for x use case”. If we’re comparing the Falcon 9 Heavy to a Model Estes rocket, you can’t say the Estes is a better rocket because of price. Totally depends on what you need it for. If we're talking needing the absolute best of the best leading tech and features in order to come out on top in a fight/war, then cost doesn't have a place in that equation cause the risk is life/death. Most people don't find themselves there. So, if this new wiz bang weapon gives you say 15% better features (hard to quantify that but let's use that for arguments sake) but at a 700% cost increase is it really worth it? There's other dynamics involved that's already been discussed such as parts availability, ammo availability and system support. You said yourself you're a collector but using arguments that the juice is worth squeeze based on feature sets that you probably won't ever need. Because you're a collector |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:34:03 PM EDT
[#33]
You fail for the TaeTae cd.
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:36:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, right, the general shape & component details like the deflector, FA plunger, ejection port cover, (empty) buffer tube stock, etc, etc, ad nauseum just happen to look like an AR for no damn reason. https://i.imgur.com/PwaaW1c.jpg I don't how many new/different parts, curves, or dimensions SIG added to it. It's an AR derivative design. Nothing wrong with that, but it's what it is, & I have no doubt that was an intentional decision to utilize manual-of-arms familiarity as a sales pitch strategy. The GD/Beretta/TVNC "Genesis" BP is a relatively more radical move for the Army in that regard. I still think the BP + TVNC ammo is a more elegant design because it takes advantage of the longer-barrel-in-a-shorter-package approach to operate at normal ~60K psi pressures, & so the round can thus be utilized by legacy arms with a simple barrel change to 6.8mm & benefit from the weight savings. Conversely, with the 80K+ psi 277 FURY, these 2 SIG candidates would be the only guns in the entire .mil armory that can utilize the round. 6.8 VTC is also the lighter cartridge. It's kinda like saying that the AR10 was based on the Johnson, because they both have similar bolts. I am incredibly curious if the 3-part case design of Sig can be compatible with current arms, with maybe a gas system/recoil spring adjustment of some type. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:37:28 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Totally depends on what you need it for. If we're talking needing the absolute best of the best leading tech and features in order to come out on top in a fight/war, then cost doesn't have a place in that equation cause the risk is life/death. Most people don't find themselves there. So, if this new wiz bang weapon gives you say 15% better features (hard to quantify that but let's use that for arguments sake) but at a 700% cost increase is it really worth it? There's other dynamics involved that's already been discussed such as parts availability, ammo availability and system support. You said yourself you're a collector but using arguments that the juice is worth squeeze based on feature sets that you probably won't ever need. Because you're a collector Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: But “This design is better than that design” is a different argument than “This rifle is better than that rifle for x use case”. If we’re comparing the Falcon 9 Heavy to a Model Estes rocket, you can’t say the Estes is a better rocket because of price. Totally depends on what you need it for. If we're talking needing the absolute best of the best leading tech and features in order to come out on top in a fight/war, then cost doesn't have a place in that equation cause the risk is life/death. Most people don't find themselves there. So, if this new wiz bang weapon gives you say 15% better features (hard to quantify that but let's use that for arguments sake) but at a 700% cost increase is it really worth it? There's other dynamics involved that's already been discussed such as parts availability, ammo availability and system support. You said yourself you're a collector but using arguments that the juice is worth squeeze based on feature sets that you probably won't ever need. Because you're a collector I'm also a collector. I very much enjoy shooting. But even then, discussions around price are fallacious because the only pricing we have is a specific limited edition first production run. We know a similar setup to this will be released, also available in .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. We don't know what that will cost. We also don't know where this will take us. Sig's implementation of Hybrid Cased ammo could be a dead end. Could also be where we see everything start to go to. Incremental improvements is the name of the game, and my personal opinion is that this implementation of a lot of these isolated features is incredibly well done and interesting. But I'm also posting this on a place where a lot of the user base has completely shuttered their eyes of 10 years of development in other aspects of shooting, where some still think .308 is a viable long range cartridge, so I need to remind myself to keep that in mind. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:41:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am incredibly curious if the 3-part case design of Sig can be compatible with current arms, with maybe a gas system/recoil spring adjustment of some type. For sig to be competitive I’d assume they’d try to make it so. It’s competitor can used in a 240 with a barrel swap. https://soldiersystems.net/2021/06/03/true-velocity-extends-performance-benefits-of-next-gen-6-8-tvcm-cartridge-to-currently-fielded-weapons/ |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:52:49 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For sig to be competitive I’d assume they’d try to make it so. It’s competitor can used in a 240 with a barrel swap. https://soldiersystems.net/2021/06/03/true-velocity-extends-performance-benefits-of-next-gen-6-8-tvcm-cartridge-to-currently-fielded-weapons/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am incredibly curious if the 3-part case design of Sig can be compatible with current arms, with maybe a gas system/recoil spring adjustment of some type. For sig to be competitive I’d assume they’d try to make it so. It’s competitor can used in a 240 with a barrel swap. https://soldiersystems.net/2021/06/03/true-velocity-extends-performance-benefits-of-next-gen-6-8-tvcm-cartridge-to-currently-fielded-weapons/ Yes. But the rounds aren't directly comparable. .277 Fury went for the "Short Barreled, High Pressure Ammo" route to achieve their desired results. The 6.8 TVCM went for "Long Barreled Bullpup, maximize for lightweight ammo" route. If you look at SAAMI specs, they certified the 6.8TVCM from a 24" Barrel. The .277 Fury was certified from a 16". TV is also hiding behind "muh confidential" on their ammo performance. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:53:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree and I'm all for it, but sig is not going to be the company to do it. I bought a 716 3 gun and it was a dumpster fire. sig would not stand behind it and because of the proprietary parts, I had no aftermarket options to fix it. Also helped a buddy fix his mcx that sig blamed on operator error. Locked up gas switch, piece of brass shaving was the cause. Where did the brass come from? All the failures to extract. Stiffer extractor spring helped, but it was so comically overgassed it was a band aid at best. Garbage products from a garbage company. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I need a link to the Virtus failure thread. Also, OP does make some good points. We cannot constantly assume the AR will always be the do all, be all rifle. At some point something will surpass it and I’d rather not be the guy telling everyone something is bullshit before I can even try it out. And I really want some 277 and a barrel for my Cross. I agree and I'm all for it, but sig is not going to be the company to do it. I bought a 716 3 gun and it was a dumpster fire. sig would not stand behind it and because of the proprietary parts, I had no aftermarket options to fix it. Also helped a buddy fix his mcx that sig blamed on operator error. Locked up gas switch, piece of brass shaving was the cause. Where did the brass come from? All the failures to extract. Stiffer extractor spring helped, but it was so comically overgassed it was a band aid at best. Garbage products from a garbage company. A piece of brass got stuck in the gas regulator (switch) and you're blaming failure to extracts? It's literally impossible for brass from the round to be stuck in the regulator, unless your buddy used brass to smack the op rod out or something. The gas regulator is literally no where near where the chamber is. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 7:54:46 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We also don't know where this will take us. Sig's implementation of Hybrid Cased ammo could be a dead end. Could also be where we see everything start to go to. I agree with you on this. But the sentiment that your previous posts have been are that the gun and cartridge is already there. And yes, price will come down as time goes on. That will potentially make the system more lucrative |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 8:03:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A piece of brass got stuck in the gas regulator (switch) and you're blaming failure to extracts? It's literally impossible for brass from the round to be stuck in the regulator, unless your buddy used brass to smack the op rod out or something. The gas regulator is literally no where near where the chamber is. I'm not blaming that on the extraction issue. It had extraction issues both before and after the gas switch issue. Brass shavings certainly can build up in the chamber and end up going down the barrel and through the gas block and jam the gas switch. Is it super common? No, but it happens. https://www.sigtalk.com/threads/mcx-gas-valve-hard-to-switch.56674/ |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 8:12:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Fair, me too. I’ll take a chill pill and just watch
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Posted: 3/19/2022 8:13:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AR10 is not the same form factor. And even if it was, other than some niche runs it’s not a common configuration, and I’m sure it suffers from most AR10 platforms of neutering the performance capabilities of the cartridge. You said similar. Not same. Wilson Combat makes them turnkey (overpriced) but plenty of people have built 7mm-08 AR10s. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 8:22:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not blaming that on the extraction issue. It had extraction issues both before and after the gas switch issue. Brass shavings certainly can build up in the chamber and end up going down the barrel and through the gas block and jam the gas switch. Is it super common? No, but it happens. https://www.sigtalk.com/threads/mcx-gas-valve-hard-to-switch.56674/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A piece of brass got stuck in the gas regulator (switch) and you're blaming failure to extracts? It's literally impossible for brass from the round to be stuck in the regulator, unless your buddy used brass to smack the op rod out or something. The gas regulator is literally no where near where the chamber is. I'm not blaming that on the extraction issue. It had extraction issues both before and after the gas switch issue. Brass shavings certainly can build up in the chamber and end up going down the barrel and through the gas block and jam the gas switch. Is it super common? No, but it happens. https://www.sigtalk.com/threads/mcx-gas-valve-hard-to-switch.56674/ Not buying your story, sorry. I do believe your buddy had extraction issues but willing to bet his extractor is out of spec or ejector. Personally witnessed a 11.5" Virtus that was suffering from failure to eject, when not using a silencer, worked fine with it. Sig replaced the bolt and sent it back within a few days. Your story isn't adding up. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 8:37:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not buying your story, sorry. I do believe your buddy had extraction issues but willing to bet his extractor is out of spec or ejector. Personally witnessed a 11.5" Virtus that was suffering from failure to eject, when not using a silencer, worked fine with it. Sig replaced the bolt and sent it back within a few days. Your story isn't adding up. So not only did i make it all up, I'm also in cahoots with another sig hater and we have been scheming to smear sig's name since 2016.  |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 8:43:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New to arfcom, only been into firearms 4/5 years - this thread makes me sad for gun culture. OP makes a lot of good points about the platform, but is also trying to flex in a douchey way. Respondents bring up valid considerations, but also throwing out emotional statements. Love my firearms and friends who share the passion, but theres a weird sad side to gun culture. The SPEAR is super sick... |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 9:10:34 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well it's a good thing they do, those benefits of the trials and various testing always trickle down in some way to the consumer market. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/fury-2.png Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Tell that to the US Army, they seem to think there is an imperative issue that needs to be addressed. Well it's a good thing they do, those benefits of the trials and various testing always trickle down in some way to the consumer market. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/fury-2.png I dunno- I just thought the future would be a little more future-y. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 9:17:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 140gr @ 3200 FPS I dunno- I just thought the future would be a little more future-y. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Tell that to the US Army, they seem to think there is an imperative issue that needs to be addressed. Well it's a good thing they do, those benefits of the trials and various testing always trickle down in some way to the consumer market. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/fury-2.png I dunno- I just thought the future would be a little more future-y. 140gr at 3K from a 16" is impressive to me. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 9:58:21 PM EDT
[#48]
because its a solution looking for a problem that simply doesnt exist.
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Posted: 3/19/2022 10:15:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: because its a solution looking for a problem that simply doesnt exist. So we’ve reached peak firearms design? Guess it’s time to pack up and go home. |
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Posted: 3/19/2022 10:57:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So we’ve reached peak firearms design? Guess it’s time to pack up and go home. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: because its a solution looking for a problem that simply doesnt exist. So we’ve reached peak firearms design? Guess it’s time to pack up and go home. The high pressure ammo could initiate a new wave of innovation. Should be backwards compatible to most cartridges with some gas adjustment and maybe some spring/buffer changes. Assuming that the bolt is up to the task. Which is why I'm curious about the barrel life of a cartridge like that. Flame temp of the powder will play a role. As will firing schedule. Hot barrels die quicker. |
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