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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:53:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hey, maybe they're developing it to use on American citizens. Then it won't be a waste!  It did seem odd to me that they are chasing ballistic parity hotter American big game hunting rifle in an assault rifle platform for “overmatch”. Seems like they are willing to sacrifice capacity and mobility for longer engagement ranges. Which makes a lot of sense for an expanded DMR program and platform for a more balanced ability to fight both close and far engagements. But standardizing it across the board is kind of puzzling. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:07:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryConsiderably heavier ammo in comparison to 7.62. The 6.8 gives us a gun that is lighter than the SAW and 240 by a good amount and performance that eclipses either 5.56 or 7.62. 338 norma is cool as fuck and I would the first to advocating it replacing the 12.7 HMG and coax 240s, but it is not a squad machine gun or even a platoon gun. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:18:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's a Fort Hood thing? You've never been to a course that's not in ATRRS? You do realize it's not violating regulation in any way, shape, or form to do so right? You literally do a night infil range in OSUT for nods familiarization. The ability to maneuver with nods is a subtask that is an implied expectation. Units have tactical handheld radios that don't have tasks associated with them, yet they integrate them into training and operations all the time. Units have sent people to language and culture courses all the time. Unit SDMs run hip pocket training all the time on mounting nods to your weapon. In this case you are saying it is impossible to train with MTOE equipment outside of what's listed on CATS, and you would be wrong. You are wrapped around "validation", you can do a lot using the term "familiarization". I run two week functional courses completely outside of ICTL and MET tasks all the time, endorsed by FORSCOM. Certain things I'd rather the Army didn't completely micromanage. My BCT class didn't do the night infil course, I don't remember if a reason was given. I never did a night range in the Army. I've never been to a non-ATRRS course. I know they exist, just never been to one. My point is that most units are struggling to keep up with all their taskers and assigned training, not coming up with new and exciting ways to learn things. I don't know, I've been off AD a while now, maybe things have changed but when I was there (2009-2014) everyone was very proud of the fact that all training was conducted by the book, and very scared of being caught deviating from it. The NCOs were creating books for SGTs Time that had the CATS in it so any random CSM that showed up would be able to ensure that they were operating according to the published standard. The cumulative performance of the Army is based on the average performance of the average unit. If a GS artillery unit, USACAPOCs finest or for that matter the Indiana National Guard can't perform, then it's gonna suck. So my solution is to formalize better training, rather than hope that some units and installations do it right. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm glad that your experience is different but I suspect that if you polled all million people in the Army, the most common experience is more like mine. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:25:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Considerably heavier ammo in comparison to 7.62. The 6.8 gives us a gun that is lighter than the SAW and 240 by a good amount and performance that eclipses either 5.56 or 7.62. 338 norma is cool as fuck and I would the first to advocating it replacing the 12.7 HMG and coax 240s, but it is not a squad machine gun or even a platoon gun. OPCON'ing a Marine with an M27 in 6.5G to every Army Infantry Squad makes more sense than Sig USA's 6.8. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:29:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryThat article was a whole lot of pie-in-the-sky, smoke & mirror, non-specific wish casting. Okay, forage for your food, might work on a limited short-term basis, but ammo, fuels and complex spare parts aren't going to be 3D printed on site and battery powered ships aren't going to deliver them. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:33:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OPCON'ing a Marine with an M27 in 6.5G to every Army Infantry Squad makes more sense than Sig USA's 6.8. The M27 was an excuse to get a 416 into line units without having carbine trials. It is not a squad machine gun. "Hey lets just load this devil dog down with 15 mags." |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:39:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryNo reason not to get both. The medium machinegun is a different animal. My prediction: Although billed as an M4 replacement, the XM5 is limited issue to certain units and possibly as a limited issue DMR type carbine. The machinegun is where the 6.8 shines. XM250 replaces both the M249 and most M240Ls. It is lighter than both with a higher performance round, and shoots softer due to the reciprocating barrel, and the XM157 fire control can shine at extended machinegun ranges. The remainder of the M240s will be converted to 6.8x51mm This leaves 7.62x51 functionally dead and we finally escape the cult of 30 cal left over from WWI surplus ammo. Then the 338 MMG is adopted shortly after replacing about half of the remaining M240s and half of the M2s. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:43:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No reason not to get both. The medium machinegun is a different animal. My prediction: Although billed as an M4 replacement, the XM5 is limited issue to certain units and possibly as a limited issue DMR type carbine. The machiegun is where the 6.8 shines. XM250 replaces both the M249 and most M240Ls. The remainder of the M240s will be converted to 6.8x51mm This leaves 7.62x51 functionally dead and we finally escape the cult of 30 cal left over from WWI surplus ammo. Then the 338 MMG is adopted shortly after replacing about half of the remaining M240s and half of the M2s. Add in the m230 on RWS and you can replace a lot of the mk19 and remaining m-2s |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:46:30 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The M27 was an excuse to get a 416 into line units without having carbine trials. It is not a squad machine gun. "Hey lets just load this devil dog down with 15 mags." So what you trying to say is the Corpse has their shit together when it comes to killing people while Big Army is in a race to suck it's own dick in between SHARP briefings? I concur with your assessment. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:48:43 PM EDT
[#10]
I don’t think we are ready to get rid of 50 caliber yet. 30x113 is literally an order of magnitude more expensive.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:49:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Just a layman here, but my take away is:
- Why not just start fielding the M250 in 7.62x51 right now? Like by the dozens when they come in? Give a guy a M250 in 7.62 and take away his M249? - Was there any effort put into replacing the M249 and M240 with something better before this? Not just the MK48 or a lightened M240, but something legitimately modern and well thought out? The M249 and the M240 both seem like gun modernized out of WW1. - Was there any effort put into bringing the M4 up to the standards the military needed? Like fielding a better bullet or maybe backtracking on 14.5" barrels? Maybe its okay to have a 20" barrel and shoot MK262? - From what I've seen the M4, M240, and M249 have only gotten shorter, and less effective at range, over the years. Is maintaining that direction the right thing to do? - Is defeating body armor really a profound concern to the military? How long is that advantage in Sig's new round going to last? - If explosives produce the majority of battlefield casualties, what efforts have been put into that front? It kind of seems like no one gave a shit before, and now someone figured there was a lot of money to be made on the whole thing. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:50:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what you trying to say is the Corpse has their shit together when it comes to killing people while Big Army is in a race to suck it's own dick in between SHARP briefings? I concur with your assessment. Strongly disagree. While the Corps embodies excellence in many ways they recently cut bodies, switched to using more senior people than in the past, and cut systems to switch to a long range fires organization to support the Navy. But the missile systems never came. So now they are stuck as a poor imitation of the army that isn’t cheaper and can’t do a combined arms breach without external support. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:52:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That article was a whole lot of pie-in-the-sky, smoke & mirror, non-specific wish casting. Okay, forage for your food, might work on a limited short-term basis, but ammo, fuels and complex spare parts aren't going to be 3D printed on site and battery powered ships aren't going to deliver them. No shit. I have some sympathy for some of it (energy efficiency, solar) but oof, that stuff isn't great. We've been there before to some extent, during WWII there were remote units that grew food with hydroponics. But it isn't scalable. Also, talking to a Brit about the idea that modern war demands more throughput than can be provided. He modeled 155mm artillery consumption and says that in most parts of the world you can't move the tonnage required, period, full stop. You either have to come up with ways to shoot less, or use lighter ammunition. Fuel is a similar issue. Map that onto the islands in the Pacific and it is a nightmare. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:53:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is my thinking (probably because you've said it before) and once they are fixed they can be hammered by mortars and other HE delivery systems. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Years ago at one of the Close Combat Lethality Task Force meetings, I pointed out focusing on the ability to penetrate a suppose armor plate that no has seen unreal life was probably not the best approach because no one runs into a beaten zone with the knowledge their plates will save them because being shot in the face, arm, leg , throat, etc by a round unable to go through my SAPI sucks pretty bad This is my thinking (probably because you've said it before) and once they are fixed they can be hammered by mortars and other HE delivery systems. This. In open terrain individual weapons are for suppressing the dudes who ambushed you while you break contact and either get off the X and run away or establish a defensible position and call for ‘splodey stuff to actually kill them. In other words, direct fire small arms are for CQB and making humans stop and seek cover so you can make HE fall on them. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:55:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No reason not to get both. The medium machinegun is a different animal. My prediction: Although billed as an M4 replacement, the XM5 is limited issue to certain units and possibly as a limited issue DMR type carbine. The machinegun is where the 6.8 shines. XM250 replaces both the M249 and most M240Ls. It is lighter than both with a higher performance round, and shoots softer due to the reciprocating barrel, amd XM157 fire control can shine at extended machinegun ranges. The remainder of the M240s will be converted to 6.8x51mm This leaves 7.62x51 functionally dead and we finally escape the cult of 30 cal left over from WWI surplus ammo. Then the 338 MMG is adopted shortly after replacing about half of the remaining M240s and half of the M2s. I can't weight to see Big Army to divest from both the Corpse, NATO and any potential ally to invent TTP's around Sig USA's developmental T&E samples.  |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:56:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what you trying to say is the Corpse has their shit together when it comes to killing people while Big Army is in a race to suck it's own dick in between SHARP briefings? I concur with your assessment. Not really the Corp wanted a 416 derivative and knew it was never going to fly as a general issue carbine contract. So they made the play using the automatic rifle replacement to replace the SAW. They get the 416 shoe horn it into that role and then say wow these are great lets buy more and issue them across all line units. Big Army put way more bodies in the Ground the last 20 years. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:00:18 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't weight to see Big Army to divest from both the Corpse, NATO and any potential ally to invent TTP's around Sig USA's developmental T&E samples. https://media.tenor.com/uK_CSUworIgAAAAC/shake-weight-obscene.gif Fuck man, things change. There is nothing about 7.62 worth keeping it around besides inertia. It can be replaced. Somehow we can change ammo types across large systems, but when it comes to small arms, its neigh impossible. In the same time that 7.62 has been around the standard tank round has changed 4 times. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:14:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Strongly disagree. While the Corps embodies excellence in many ways they recently cut bodies, switched to using more senior people than in the past, and cut systems to switch to a long range fires organization to support the Navy. But the missile systems never came. So now they are stuck as a poor imitation of the army that isn’t cheaper and can’t do a combined arms breach without external support. Don't get me started on the Corpse and their lack of 105mm tubes... Having said that, today's Marine Infantryman is better trained and equipped than the Harbor Freight SOCOM knockoff's Big Army buy's in bulk. What I find fascinating is watching history repeat itself, just like after Vietnam. Neu camo, weapons and relaxed grooming standards were effective recruiting tools to disassociate the Armed Forces from the last war and focus on one that has yet to be invented.  Stripes (1981) Trailer #1 | Movieclips Classic Trailers |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:19:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "We" wouldn't be likely to see combat in those places, because we don't need to be there. We can close China off from the world and starve them out. The great unlearned lesson from WWII was that Japan succumbed not to brute force but to our submarine and aerial mining campaign. At the end of the war they have factories, but no raw materials. Apply that to China and it means that need the ability to control enough land to put their supplies under interdiction. That's it. Japan is an island roughly the size of Montana with almost no natural resources. China is the third-largest nation in the world and has 14,000 miles of land borders, mostly with nations that are friendly or at least neutral. Those nations include Russia, which is the largest nation in the world with incredible natural resources and is now a sworn enemy of the US. They also include Pakistan, which is right on the Persian Gulf and represents easy access to Middle Eastern oil. Blockading China would destroy their export-based civilian economy, but it wouldn't come close to slowing down their military potential, let alone starve them out. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:21:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck man, things change. There is nothing about 7.62 worth keeping it around besides inertia. It can be replaced. Somehow we can change ammo types across large systems, but when it comes to small arms, its neigh impossible. In the same time that 7.62 has been around the standard tank round has changed 4 times. I'm with you on replacing 7.62, just with 338 Norma which is better for MG's and precision |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:23:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Japan is an island roughly the size of Montana with almost no natural resources. China is the third-largest nation in the world and has 14,000 miles of land borders, mostly with nations that are friendly or at least neutral. Those nations include Russia, which is the largest nation in the world with incredible natural resources and is now a sworn enemy of the US. They also include Pakistan, which is right on the Persian Gulf and represents easy access to Middle Eastern oil. Blockading China would destroy their export-based civilian economy, but it wouldn't come close to slowing down their military potential, let alone starve them out. China has the same natural resource problem, which is why they keep going through other countries to get access to suppliers. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:28:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That article was a whole lot of pie-in-the-sky, smoke & mirror, non-specific wish casting. Okay, forage for your food, might work on a limited short-term basis, but ammo, fuels and complex spare parts aren't going to be 3D printed on site and battery powered ships aren't going to deliver them. Reminded me of this https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2858596/for-contingencies-in-indo-pacom-army-will-serve-as-linchpin-for-joint-force/ |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:29:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's also literally nothing stopping them from doing it, just like us and the majority of circles we work in. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There are 1,000,000 Soldiers in the Army. I don't think you are reaching all of them. There's also literally nothing stopping them from doing it, just like us and the majority of circles we work in. This is true. My broke ass US Army Reserve PSYOP unit would do NVG hide and seek in old warehouses on the base or out in the woods on MUTA 5s back in 2002. We had one -7 and one -14 per three man team (that math don’t work) but we’d at least put some batteries in and fuck about so we didn’t break our necks walking through the woods with them. Well, except the lowest ranking dude who didn’t get a set of NVGs. He was fucked. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:38:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would you want something with a worse BC than Mk262? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They should have just went with a 6.8 SPC II M4A1 Why would you want something with a worse BC than Mk262? Everyone that wants to bag on 6.8 SPC II always says that. It's true, if you cherry pick light for bore bullets like the 90 grain Gold Dot. Or the 110 grain SMK, which was obsolete by the time the 6.8 came out. The truth is, most people are using modern bullets, up to 130 and in some cases 140 grain VLDs which have a way better BC than the 77 gen. 224 SMK. Even the 110-120 grain commonly available Accubond or SST (hunting bullets) beat the 77 grain all day long. Choosing to lie by omission, or repeating someone else's lie just makes you look...bad. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:39:44 PM EDT
[#25]
I'm a 6.8spc fan, but also think this was a bad move, but who am I to say. Given the choice I'd take any gun in 6.5 Grendel over one in 5.56, although if 6.8 spc II was a choice it'd be a no-brainer for me.
The "changing calibers is too expensive" excuse ship sailed decades ago, I never bought it considering the stupid money they have spent on projects over the years. Researching the 6.5 caliber in military history, it doesn't appear they keep them that long even though they prove effective enough. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:44:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm a 6.8spc fan, but also think this was a bad move, but who am I to say. Given the choice I'd take any gun in 6.5 Grendel over one in 5.56, although if 6.8 spc II was a choice it'd be a no-brainer for me. The "changing calibers is too expensive" excuse ship sailed decades ago, I never bought it considering the stupid money they have spent on projects over the years. Researching the 6.5 caliber in military history, it doesn't appear they keep them that long even though they prove effective enough. It's the 6.8 fury not the spc II |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:46:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm a 6.8spc fan, but also think this was a bad move, but who am I to say. Given the choice I'd take any gun in 6.5 Grendel over one in 5.56, although if 6.8 spc II was a choice it'd be a no-brainer for me. The "changing calibers is too expensive" excuse ship sailed decades ago, I never bought it considering the stupid money they have spent on projects over the years. Researching the 6.5 caliber in military history, it doesn't appear they keep them that long even though they prove effective enough. Not that it's proof of anything, but i think it's funny that the 2 nations that took 6.5's to war ditched them in the middle of said war |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:47:07 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No reason not to get both. The medium machinegun is a different animal. My prediction: Although billed as an M4 replacement, the XM5 is limited issue to certain units and possibly as a limited issue DMR type carbine. The machinegun is where the 6.8 shines. XM250 replaces both the M249 and most M240Ls. It is lighter than both with a higher performance round, and shoots softer due to the reciprocating barrel, amd XM157 fire control can shine at extended machinegun ranges. I dont see how the xm250 replaces the m249 while keeping the saw gunner in the fire team.Bulk and weight of the ammo is the biggest part of a saw gunner's combat load and he needs to keep up with the rest of the team. For the same reason you're saying the m4 should stick around applies to the saw too. We do need a lighter saw, but not in this cartridge. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:56:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everyone that wants to bag on 6.8 SPC II always says that. It's true, if you cherry pick light for bore bullets like the 90 grain Gold Dot. Or the 110 grain SMK, which was obsolete by the time the 6.8 came out. The truth is, most people are using modern bullets, up to 130 and in some cases 140 grain VLDs which have a way better BC than the 77 gen. 224 SMK. Even the 110-120 grain commonly available Accubond or SST (hunting bullets) beat the 77 grain all day long. Choosing to lie by omission, or repeating someone else's lie just makes you look...bad. I've been wondering, if the goal is to penetrate armor at longer range why aren't we using a 224 Valkyrie with a heavier AP round? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:01:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Except your missing that as a machine gun round the 6.8 blows the doors off 7.62. I’m in a world where 7.62 is no longer in the system. So a large platform rifle will be procured in the complementary round. A better mousetrap has already been invented:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ4vXH-RiEkThat 338 MMG looked tits. I presume there’s a list of issues, but on the face it looks awesome |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:05:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The M27 was an excuse to get a 416 into line units without having carbine trials. It is not a squad machine gun. "Hey let’s just load this devil dog down with 15 mags." Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OPCON'ing a Marine with an M27 in 6.5G to every Army Infantry Squad makes more sense than Sig USA's 6.8. The M27 was an excuse to get a 416 into line units without having carbine trials. It is not a squad machine gun. "Hey let’s just load this devil dog down with 15 mags." It was not, it brought on board as a SAW replacement. Than they people who championed that retired, and the next generation of gunners seized upon CMC’s direction to look at an improved M16 and pivoted off of our combat development guys saying it would require a service rifle trail level event to do anything but buy more M27s |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:12:13 PM EDT
[#32]
There’s no question the ballistics of the new 6.8 are good, it’s a question of value. I don’t think the value is there to replace 5.56. But 7.62, yes.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:15:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been wondering, if the goal is to penetrate armor at longer range why aren't we using a 224 Valkyrie with a heavier AP round? We'd only need a 34" barrel! |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:19:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm a 6.8spc fan, but also think this was a bad move, but who am I to say. Given the choice I'd take any gun in 6.5 Grendel over one in 5.56, although if 6.8 spc II was a choice it'd be a no-brainer for me. The "changing calibers is too expensive" excuse ship sailed decades ago, I never bought it considering the stupid money they have spent on projects over the years. Researching the 6.5 caliber in military history, it doesn't appear they keep them that long even though they prove effective enough. I just hate it when these companies or the military go batshit crazy. With hindsight there are tons of better solutions. For instance a 6.5 version of the 6.8 would probably have been better all around. Lots of available bullets, less bolt issues, mags seem to run better. Same basic argument could be made to switch all our 308's to 6.5 Creedmoor. I truly think that most everyone would follow us eventually anyway. If we switched all our AR's to 6.5 or 6.8 the ammo companies worldwide would eventually jump onboard just like they have with other weird calibers. I'm not saying it's worth it to do so I'm just saying that if we committed most would follow in my opinion. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:35:39 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is true. My broke ass US Army Reserve PSYOP unit would do NVG hide and seek in old warehouses on the base or out in the woods on MUTA 5s back in 2002. We had one -7 and one -14 per three man team (that math don’t work) but we’d at least put some batteries in and fuck about so we didn’t break our necks walking through the woods with them. Well, except the lowest ranking dude who didn’t get a set of NVGs. He was fucked. We do battledrills and ICTL tasks day and night under nods. Then directed-METL tasks that haven't been approved in CATS but apply towards the current mission... day and night. Then we do a night killhouse, where everyone has to maneuver with nods through a blacked-out confined structure full of IEDs and boobytraps without setting them off, and also identify items of tactical or intelligence value and call them out as they go. Then they go through with the lights on for contrast. Items include various pieces of ordnance or weapon systems, maps, a dude sitting in a chair, a laptop, tripwires, etc...with some rubber snakes, a baby skeleton, and some XXXL poopy underwear thrown in for good measure. I think the killhouse best highlights the problems with nods and no ambient light, depth perception while moving, size estimates on hazards, lack of color shift, and tunnel vision. This is before 4 days of STX and FMP lanes at night. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:42:26 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That 338 MMG looked tits. I presume there’s a list of issues, but on the face it looks awesome Full disclosure I haven't paid attention but I think it's a SOF requirement outside Big Army procurement retardation so it likely will be adopted along with spotting rounds instead of tracers. If history tells us anything whatever survives USASOC's kit shakedown will get the Harbor Freight treatment for general issue to conventional forces. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:49:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Full disclosure I haven't paid attention but I think it's a SOF requirement outside Big Army procurement retardation so it likely will be adopted along with spotting rounds instead of tracers. If history tells us anything whatever survives USASOC's kit shakedown will get the Harbor Freight treatment for general issue to conventional forces. You do realize Socom bought the Sig 338 gun right? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:49:57 PM EDT
[#38]
I think we should be asking if the XM5 gives us overmatch against the Norinco LG5/QLU-11 and similar weapons equipped with programmable airburst rounds.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:52:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm assuming you are unhappy with the performance of said organization so far. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If only there was an overachiever organization who had a presidential appointed official who could adjudicate the services differences on strategic guidance. I'm assuming you are unhappy with the performance of said organization so far. Once you come to the realization that the Depts primary mission is moving funds from the US Treasury to congressional districts that has to occasional take time away from that mission to fight wars you reach your moment of zen. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:52:41 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: UK had a great project going with .280 in the late 1940s - very similar to what the 6.8spc was ? But NATO put paid to it with 7.62 https://www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/em1/ exactly 
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:58:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been wondering, if the goal is to penetrate armor at longer range why aren't we using a 224 Valkyrie with a heavier AP round? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Everyone that wants to bag on 6.8 SPC II always says that. It's true, if you cherry pick light for bore bullets like the 90 grain Gold Dot. Or the 110 grain SMK, which was obsolete by the time the 6.8 came out. The truth is, most people are using modern bullets, up to 130 and in some cases 140 grain VLDs which have a way better BC than the 77 gen. 224 SMK. Even the 110-120 grain commonly available Accubond or SST (hunting bullets) beat the 77 grain all day long. Choosing to lie by omission, or repeating someone else's lie just makes you look...bad. I've been wondering, if the goal is to penetrate armor at longer range why aren't we using a 224 Valkyrie with a heavier AP round? Is this a real post |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:05:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think we should be asking if the XM5 gives us overmatch against the Norinco LG5/QLU-11 and similar weapons equipped with programmable airburst rounds. I think the last time we tried to make an infantry rifle capable of being a programmable airbursting grenade launcher was the XM25. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:12:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this a real post Sure, put some tungsten in it. If M995 can do it then a bullet much heavier will do even better. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:14:43 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You do realize Socom bought the Sig 338 gun right? Sorry, I thought I was pretty clear in my reply that I wasn't paying attention beyond 338NM getting adopted. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:19:09 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure, put some tungsten in it. If M995 can do it then a bullet much heavier will do even better. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is this a real post Sure, put some tungsten in it. If M995 can do it then a bullet much heavier will do even better. I'm not pretending to be the arms expert or the Ballistics coefficient expert or the logistics expert or really any sort of expert. Adopting 224 Valk for anything whatsoever is pretty much retarded |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:21:45 PM EDT
[#46]
A 75gr tungsten EPR at 3100 from a .224 would be a hell of a round.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:27:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A 75gr tungsten EPR at 3100 from a .224 would be a hell of a round. Makes ya wonder how fast is could push a SLAP projo 
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:40:15 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been wondering, if the goal is to penetrate armor at longer range why aren't we using a 224 Valkyrie with a heavier AP round? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Everyone that wants to bag on 6.8 SPC II always says that. It's true, if you cherry pick light for bore bullets like the 90 grain Gold Dot. Or the 110 grain SMK, which was obsolete by the time the 6.8 came out. The truth is, most people are using modern bullets, up to 130 and in some cases 140 grain VLDs which have a way better BC than the 77 gen. 224 SMK. Even the 110-120 grain commonly available Accubond or SST (hunting bullets) beat the 77 grain all day long. Choosing to lie by omission, or repeating someone else's lie just makes you look...bad. I've been wondering, if the goal is to penetrate armor at longer range why aren't we using a 224 Valkyrie with a heavier AP round? I wondered that as well. It'd be interesting but it's not enough to punch lvl plates at 400m. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:44:38 PM EDT
[#49]
6.8x51 isn’t going to punch a plate at 400m either but an airburst from a Gustav will resolve that.
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Posted: 11/21/2022 1:50:27 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure, put some tungsten in it. If M995 can do it then a bullet much heavier will do even better. No, a bullet much faster will do it better. .224v needs an incredibly long barrel to achieve the velocity it has now |
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