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Quoted: Stop me if I'm smoking crack here, but would the FREMM design be suitable for the bigger Coast Guard cutters? From where I sit, leave out the missiles and torpedoes to save money and free up space, and there should be a cost savings to having the rest of the ship common to both services. I'll admit, that's the kind of logic that led us to pretend the F35 is really one airplane instead of three... View Quote The USCGs new fleet is in service and or under construction. What should have happened was an adaptation of the WMSL class. Get rid of the stupid stern small boat ramp, give it some more pews and have a more adaptable and interchangeable fleet. It's a proven design with 13 years in service. |
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Quoted: They should have gone with the Dutch Absalon-class ships. View Quote Also, the gun will be called the Mk 75 76mm/62 cal (NOT-to-be-called Oto Melara) gun mount. (It was a "thing" on the FFG-7s, although MY gun was a gen-u-ine made in Italy Oto Melara). |
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Quoted: I'm waiting for NAVSEA to weigh in with thousands of "required" design changes which will add tens of billions to the cost and years to the schedule. For NAVSEA to accept the Italian frigates without "customization", would mean NAVSEA isn't needed and could be de-funded. This is something a swamp full of .gov bureaucrats will never allow. View Quote |
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Would be better if it was built in Bath or Pascagoula. Bath does particularly good work on surface ships.
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I hope the Navy remembers to put old mooring lines down in the ejection area to keep the bos’ns happy. I hear those ejected shells are hard on no skid!
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Quoted: The Italians have always produced interesting designs. Employment has been spotty at best, but they've always been innovators, especially in small, unconventional craft like torpedo boats and manned (but not suicide) torpedoes. View Quote Also suicide at times Look at Teseo Tesei at Malta in WWII |
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Quoted: As with the Italian Army, the modern Italian Navy has had crappy leadership. On the other hand, the lower levels of command have always been innovators, just ask the crews of the Tegethoff, Szent Istvan, and Queen Elizabeth. View Quote Yes.. redundant bourocracy and crappy leadership at the highest levels. At the time of world war II there was also a Major gap with other superpowers as far as industrial development of the country |
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Quoted: They should have gone with the Dutch Absalon-class ships. View Quote I do think that a sloop design that can be used as a frigate/escort when needed, like the Absalon-class (some of the Damen Crossover XO designs are in the same vein) is a better fit for the Navy than a pure frigate design. These frigates are pretty nice, though. I do like the "Improved Bergamini" configuration the best (although a U.S. version would use Mk41 VLS and different canister launchers for missiles, obviously). Has both a 5" and 3" gun (with ER rounds for the 5"), a couple of 40mm AA guns, a couple of 25mm guns, space amidships for two canister launchers for anti-ship missiles, 2 light ASW torpedo banks (triple), 2 helicopters, 2 launchers for decoy and bombardment rockets, and a 32-cell VLS (Sylver in this case) with the length to launch cruise missiles. The standard Bergamini (which is the Italian general-purpose variant) has two SLAT torpedo decoy launchers instead of the 40mm guns, and 16 VLS cells with space reserved for another 16 if desired in the future. |
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Quoted: This kind of bullshit got us the M14 and M60 over the G3, AR10, FAL, and MAG58. In other words, notably inferior designs over "icky foreign and commercial market" ones that actually turned out to work It also got us LCS over FREMM, Absalon, Ivar Huitfeldt, Type 26, MEKO 200, or some other design that actually fucking works and could have had steel displacing water right now. (The first FREMM ship, in the French Navy, was commissioned 9 years ago, the Dutch De Zeven Provinciën ships have been floating since 2002, etc.) This class is FREMM based, did better than LockMart's LCS-based horseshit, and has 300 extra tons of armoring, compartmentalizing, and damage control built in to bring it up to USN specs. And it'll be built 100% in the USA, by Americans. ETA: Bingo. Also yes, Italian and French joint design in the FREMM. French got theirs into service before the Italians IIRC. View Quote Italian and french FREMM's are more different than you could think and the frigate adopted by the US navy is much more similari to the italian version of the FREMM |
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Quoted: Not since DeRuyter has the Dutch Navy been very good. Look at Doorman during ABDA in the Pacific. . Now, Regia Marina de Roma knew how to crew their ships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7wcShvrus View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: They should have gone with the Dutch Absalon-class ships. Not since DeRuyter has the Dutch Navy been very good. Look at Doorman during ABDA in the Pacific. . Now, Regia Marina de Roma knew how to crew their ships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7wcShvrus Absalon class is Danish. |
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Quoted: What is boppity boopi? View Quote Family Guy - Speaking Italian |
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Quoted: I can't see why the ONLY super power Navy would be using ships designed by what only be described as the naval equivalent of bench warmers. There is nothing other navies do better than we do , pretty sure that has been proven continually since WWII . The British at this point do not rule the seas and have not in 80 plus years. View Quote It’s simple, the US Navy is broken and has no leadership. When we tried to build a destroyer sized ship we wound up with 32 LCSs, the fist 4 of which have been retired without ever completing a deployment. The US does not have a destroyer sized ship in its fleet. What we call destroyers are actually the size of traditional cruisers, but without armor. |
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Quoted: I dunno ... I read an article a few years ago by a highly respected military expert who said they were Dutch. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: ... Absalon class is Danish. I dunno ... I read an article a few years ago by a highly respected military expert who said they were Dutch. Danish, Dutch, Deutsch, what difference does it make? |
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Quoted: Danish, Dutch, Deutsch, what difference does it make? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... Absalon class is Danish. I dunno ... I read an article a few years ago by a highly respected military expert who said they were Dutch. Danish, Dutch, Deutsch, what difference does it make? I will trust your opinion on this, because Swiss people are trustworthy. |
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Quoted: USN should put the latest 5-in that frigate. https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Gjddp6-v0Ak/XEQCZPXb70I/AAAAAAAAvQE/dyUu1n73CoMQNzczJYja4pixf-UJu2j5ACLcBGAs/s1600/Otobreda%2B127%25EF%25BC%258F64%2Bon%2BEl%2BRadii-class%2BEl%2BMoudamir.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Oto Melara 76 mm automatic cannons on the italian FREMM's I posted a video above. Real beasts. USN should put the latest 5-in that frigate. https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Gjddp6-v0Ak/XEQCZPXb70I/AAAAAAAAvQE/dyUu1n73CoMQNzczJYja4pixf-UJu2j5ACLcBGAs/s1600/Otobreda%2B127%25EF%25BC%258F64%2Bon%2BEl%2BRadii-class%2BEl%2BMoudamir.jpg Those are nice. Rapid-firing, more like the Mk42 with its ROF, instead of slow-firing (for an automatic gun) like the Mk45, and it has actual ER round available for it. Compatible with all USN 5" projectiles as well. |
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Quoted: Meh, anymore having a gun like that is just to get pirates wet. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: 120 RPM on a 76mm?! Damn that's pretty good firepower. Meh, anymore having a gun like that is just to get pirates wet. There was a time when that's what everyone thought, and many designs of escorts were getting no more than a couple of minor-caliber guns. Conflicts during the 1980s changed that line of thought, as I recall, and you saw medium-caliber guns pop up on those types of ships again. |
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Quoted: It’s simple, the US Navy is broken and has no leadership. When we tried to build a destroyer sized ship we wound up with 32 LCSs, the fist 4 of which have been retired without ever completing a deployment. The US does not have a destroyer sized ship in its fleet. What we call destroyers are actually the size of traditional cruisers, but without armor. View Quote They haven't been retired yet. They have completed deployments. In regards to the first four. |
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Quoted: It’s simple, the US Navy is broken and has no leadership. When we tried to build a destroyer sized ship we wound up with 32 LCSs, the fist 4 of which have been retired without ever completing a deployment. The US does not have a destroyer sized ship in its fleet. What we call destroyers are actually the size of traditional cruisers, but without armor. View Quote Cruisers and destroyers were traditionally defined by mission and armament, not size. Some cruisers were quite small and also lacked much armor. Others were basically as large as battleships. Destroyer, frigate, and corvette designs have all been growing in size to accommodate modern weapons systems, sensors, and such, which can be very space-intensive, but they are still essentially escort designs. The Ticonderogas are built on a destroyer hull and were originally rated as destroyers and with their flag facilities are the equivalent of destroyer leaders, but were called cruisers due to Cold War era political concerns (which is also why most of the DLGs were re-rated as cruisers). Zumwalts were designed for what amounts to a cruiser mission, but due to legislation from Congress about cruisers, got called destroyers, instead. The USN has kinda messed up its nomenclature (then you have the LCS, which is a glorified modular corvette, with issues in making it actually be modular in practice). |
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Quoted: Would be better if it was built in Bath or Pascagoula. Bath does particularly good work on surface ships. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh yay, just what our military needs. More globalization. Don't want to use American workers to make American ships in American dockyards. Nope. Gotta use third worlders and sub par materials in foreign yards on a foreign design. Disgusting. It's being built in Wisconsin. They're full to my understanding. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wanted a trip to the Garibaldi in my Harrier days. He is When my wife retires I want to make a trip back to the Tidewater. I could probably spend a month at historic sites I did not visit when I was stationed at Langley AFB. My last time was in 1999 or 2000 during the JSF proposal. . |
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Quoted: Cruisers and destroyers were traditionally defined by mission and armament, not size. Some cruisers were quite small and also lacked much armor. Others were basically as large as battleships. Destroyer, frigate, and corvette designs have all been growing in size to accommodate modern weapons systems, sensors, and such, which can be very space-intensive, but they are still essentially escort designs. The Ticonderogas are built on a destroyer hull and were originally rated as destroyers and with their flag facilities are the equivalent of destroyer leaders, but were called cruisers due to Cold War era political concerns (which is also why most of the DLGs were re-rated as cruisers). Zumwalts were designed for what amounts to a cruiser mission, but due to legislation from Congress about cruisers, got called destroyers, instead. The USN has kinda messed up its nomenclature (then you have the LCS, which is a glorified modular corvette, with issues in making it actually be modular in practice). View Quote Age of Sail: Frigates were the more modern subset of cruisers, as opposed to the old Two-Deckers. Cruisers were ships designed for convoy support, commerce raiding, and pirate suppression but were too small to stand in the line of battle. A Frigate was a particular type of sailing ship being ship-rigged, with a full gun deck and additional guns on the forecastle and quarterdeck, generally 28 guns or larger, and usually employed as a cruiser. Age of Steam: Frigate was eventually dropped because it was confusing. With steam there was no longer the rigging which defined it, and with larger and heavier guns even line of battle ships often only had a single gun deck. You basically had battleships, cruisers, and intermediaries like armored cruiser and battlecruiser. WWI-ish: With the invention of torpedoes and torpedo boats came the need for torpedo boat destroyers. Since early submarines were basically submersible torpedo boats, destroyers got those as well, along with the shortened name. WWII: With the U-boat campaign there was a need for escorts smaller than destroyers, and lots of them. A wide ranges of sizes and names were invented, including a bunch from old sailing ships. So you get sloops, corvettes, frigates, destroyer escorts, etc. Post-war, navies generally settle on two sizes and names, corvettes and frigates. Cold War: Missiles and air defense become a thing, and generally cruisers get the big, sophisticated AA missiles systems. Frigates are generally pure escorts. Destroyers are principally escorts but as technology improves they get a bit more mutli-role. Computer Age: As computers get smaller, it makes sense to make everything a bit more muti-role. Cruiser, Destroyer, and Frigate really only differ in size. The line gets blurred further as cost-conscious navies fudge the definitions so you get destroyer-like frigates like the Sachsens and cruiser-like destroyers like the Burkes. |
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