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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:19:09 PM EDT
[#1]
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Eh, if they can prove the illegal proceeds beyond a reasonable doubt, I don't care, but if that's the case, why not prosecute the crime as well? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If they have the evidence necessary to demonstrate that he paid for the Land Rover with the proceeds of his illegal activity, I have zero issue with it. hundreds of cases of year of local cops just keeping peoples cash and property without charging them. GOOGLE IT. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:19:48 PM EDT
[#2]
It is policing for profit. A local speed trap small town PD seized over $3 million and the driver of the truck was not arrested. The PD kept and spent the money on all new equipment and a new police building.
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:21:11 PM EDT
[#3]
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It is policing for profit. A local speed trap small town PD seized over $3 million and the driver of the truck was not arrested. The PD kept and spent the money on all new equipment and a new police building. The arresting cops and local administrators should be in prison. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:25:47 PM EDT
[#4]
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Is that really what you think this case is about? Or are you just being dramatic? I seriously cant tell. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: That's so fucking ridiculous, I have to assume you have no idea of what you're talking about. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." This case is about a drug dealer selling $400 worth of dope, and a seized $40,000 motor vehicle. I assume that the motor vehicle was seized and then forfeited, but the article doesn't make that clear. If that's all we know, it is a disproportionate penalty. If the prosecution proved that the dealer had no other source of income and that the motor vehicle wasn't a gift, or alternatively, that it was purchased with the proceeds of drug dealing, then what's the problem? |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:25:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its not hard to get back. You go to court and show the judge where it came from. I mean, it is hard if you have a cash income that you havent been reporting for years. No one should have to prove the source of the currency they are in possession of, unless you got real evidence that it is the proceeds of criminal activity. Having large sums of cash, should not be treated as defacto criminal activity. ...and what exactly is sufficient evidence that the money is not the proceeds of criminal activity, is there a standard? Is showing a income enough? Do I have to have a bank receipt with the exact amount being withdrawn? What if I didn't just get it out, and I've been accumulating it over time, how do I prove that? |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:27:38 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That assumes the judge will give you a fair hearing, isn't in on the scam, and doesn't rubber stamp any police action. No one should have to prove the source of the currency they are in possession of, unless you got real evidence that it is the proceeds of criminal activity. Having large sums of cash, should not be treated as defacto criminal activity. ...and what exactly is sufficient evidence that the money is not the proceeds of criminal activity, is there a standard? Is showing a income enough? Do I have to have a bank receipt with the exact amount being withdrawn? What if I didn't just get it out, and I've been accumulating it over time, how do I prove that? |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:29:33 PM EDT
[#7]
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Dumbest argument ever. Your opinion is duly noted. Have you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Yes, of course. They can keep it only after prosecution. Incorrect. In a lot of a few, thankfully heavily reported cases local cops just keep cash and property, but never charge anyone. It is theft. Agreed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: That's so fucking ridiculous, I have to assume you have no idea of what you're talking about. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." Have you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Yes, of course. They can keep it only after prosecution. Incorrect. In a lot of a few, thankfully heavily reported cases local cops just keep cash and property, but never charge anyone. It is theft. Agreed. 
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:29:43 PM EDT
[#8]
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It is policing for profit. A local speed trap small town PD seized over $3 million and the driver of the truck was not arrested. The PD kept and spent the money on all new equipment and a new police building. 
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:29:57 PM EDT
[#9]
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Asset seizure is a bullshit law all the way around. I hope the Indiana man wins. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:31:23 PM EDT
[#10]
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I'm conflicted on asset seizure/forfeiture due to the widespread abuse. Period. Either you love your Freedom and Liberty or you don’t, there is no middle ground. Asset forfeiture is the canary in the coal mine for people who can’t see that a government powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take everything you have. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:31:56 PM EDT
[#11]
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THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. only after a trial. hundreds of cases of year of local cops just keeping peoples cash and property without charging them. GOOGLE IT. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If they have the evidence necessary to demonstrate that he paid for the Land Rover with the proceeds of his illegal activity, I have zero issue with it. hundreds of cases of year of local cops just keeping peoples cash and property without charging them. GOOGLE IT. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:32:58 PM EDT
[#12]
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I'd bet the driver never even showed up to court to contest the forfeiture. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:33:35 PM EDT
[#13]
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I'd bet the driver never even showed up to court to contest the forfeiture. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is policing for profit. A local speed trap small town PD seized over $3 million and the driver of the truck was not arrested. The PD kept and spent the money on all new equipment and a new police building. I still think it's dirty pool. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:34:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not conflicted at all. If the property isn’t the fruit of illegal activity itself, seizure is blatantly unconstitutional and any LEO who would even consider taking it needs to find a new line of work. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:34:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to clarify, you believe that seizing assets prior to conviction is theft, or do you mean forfeiture prior to conviction? 1) the feds have a nasty habit of finding creative ways to seize put a lien on your home so that you can’t mortgage it to fund your legal defense 2) currently, the government seizes your shit and if you don’t inform them in writing that you want to keep it they will liquidate it after 30 days and grudgingly cash you out after your hopeful acquittal. They don’t have room to store all of their Ill-gotten gains, you see.... |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:36:52 PM EDT
[#16]
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Well that's just the strangest thing I ever heard. I'm truly stumped. I still think it's dirty pool. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is policing for profit. A local speed trap small town PD seized over $3 million and the driver of the truck was not arrested. The PD kept and spent the money on all new equipment and a new police building. I still think it's dirty pool.
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:37:09 PM EDT
[#17]
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That's so fucking ridiculous, I have to assume you have no idea of what you're talking about. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm conflicted on asset seizure/forfeiture due to the widespread abuse. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:40:28 PM EDT
[#18]
The only time I'm for asset forfeiture is if someone was found guilty of theft or a crime where the guilty party has to pay reparations of some sort then assets should be taken to pay them, otherwise I'm not for taking stuff away if property was legally obtained.
The drug war is just wrong and needs to stop and abused to take peoples property. It isn't winnable and we need to just stop blowing all the money on this failed program. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:41:22 PM EDT
[#19]
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So how about a gun used in a murder? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Cocaine is not an asset. Cocaine is an illegal substance, subject to immediate seizure. A good example is taking a family’s car because the husband picks up a hooker. A better example is pulling over a car that is on the way to buy a car out of the drivers state and then confiscating the driver’s $13k he needed to pay for his new truck. That kind of theft. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:44:05 PM EDT
[#20]
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I had a client lose a Geo Metro 
WTF good is a $ 500 car? I don’t think this is that funny, TBH.
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:47:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Civil asset forfeiture without an accompanying criminal conviction is bs. Forfeited assets should be directed to a jurisdiction’s general fund.
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:47:20 PM EDT
[#22]
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I think we need to be careful to clarify that no assets should be seized until AFTER conviction, for two reasons: 1) the feds have a nasty habit of finding creative ways to seize put a lien on your home so that you can’t mortgage it to fund your legal defense 2) currently, the government seizes your shit and if you don’t inform them in writing that you want to keep it they will liquidate it after 30 days and grudgingly cash you out after your hopeful acquittal. They don’t have room to store all of their Ill-gotten gains, you see.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Just to clarify, you believe that seizing assets prior to conviction is theft, or do you mean forfeiture prior to conviction? 1) the feds have a nasty habit of finding creative ways to seize put a lien on your home so that you can’t mortgage it to fund your legal defense 2) currently, the government seizes your shit and if you don’t inform them in writing that you want to keep it they will liquidate it after 30 days and grudgingly cash you out after your hopeful acquittal. They don’t have room to store all of their Ill-gotten gains, you see.... Forfeiture shouldn't occur until after conviction. Seizure shouldn't occur without a reasonable suspicion. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:49:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Asset seizure is when the police take property from it's rightful owner, or other person in possession of said property. Asset forfeiture is when a court issues an order divesting the owner, ownership of the property. Civil asset forfeiture is when a forfeiture is ordered without the benefit of a criminal conviction related to the property. It is largely bullshit* in my estimation, because if I can't prove a crime occurred beyond a reasonable doubt there's no reason I should be able to dispossess someone of legal property by a preponderance of the evidence. * I qualified it because there are some circumstances that civil asset forfeiture is fine in my book. Think abandoned property, or the time that a trooper found a pistol under the seat of an ex-con's rental car, the ex-con stated it wasn't his and he didn't know how it got there, the trooper believed him, and took the gun. ETA: I should probably note for the pedantic set that by ex-con, I mean, a guy previously convicted of a felony and no longer incarcerated or on paper; that it's illegal for such a gentlemen to have a firearm in his possession; and that having a firearm in your car is having a firearm in your possession. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:49:37 PM EDT
[#24]
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If you've handled many large cash seizures (six figures+), you'd know that most of those aren't chance encounters and the people it's seized from want nothing to do with it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is policing for profit. A local speed trap small town PD seized over $3 million and the driver of the truck was not arrested. The PD kept and spent the money on all new equipment and a new police building. I still think it's dirty pool. Lots of little cash seizures, motor vehicles, firearms, burglary tools, assorted paraphernalia, indoor gardening equipment, a house once . . . |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:50:01 PM EDT
[#25]
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Any asset seizure before getting found guilty in a courtroom is wrong. Again WoD is to blame.....end it. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:55:00 PM EDT
[#26]
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HURRR-DUURRRR-DEE-DURRDEDUURRR, DERP(!).... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm conflicted on asset seizure/forfeiture due to the widespread abuse. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:55:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm conflicted on asset seizure/forfeiture due to the widespread abuse. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:57:09 PM EDT
[#28]
A stripper got her million bucks plus interest back from the state of Nebraska.
Claimed dog could smell drug residue on cash https://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Woman-Suing-Nebraska-Wants-Million-Dollars-Returned-209807581.html |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:57:26 PM EDT
[#29]
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Abandoned property is not really asset forfeiture. If nobody claims it, then it should go to the state (or finder). It isn't forfeited. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Asset seizure is when the police take property from it's rightful owner, or other person in possession of said property. Asset forfeiture is when a court issues an order divesting the owner, ownership of the property. Civil asset forfeiture is when a forfeiture is ordered without the benefit of a criminal conviction related to the property. It is largely bullshit* in my estimation, because if I can't prove a crime occurred beyond a reasonable doubt there's no reason I should be able to dispossess someone of legal property by a preponderance of the evidence. * I qualified it because there are some circumstances that civil asset forfeiture is fine in my book. Think abandoned property, or the time that a trooper found a pistol under the seat of an ex-con's rental car, the ex-con stated it wasn't his and he didn't know how it got there, the trooper believed him, and took the gun. ETA: I should probably note for the pedantic set that by ex-con, I mean, a guy previously convicted of a felony and no longer incarcerated or on paper; that it's illegal for such a gentlemen to have a firearm in his possession; and that having a firearm in your car is having a firearm in your possession.
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Posted: 11/28/2018 10:59:10 PM EDT
[#30]
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Is the level of discourse that I can expect from you, or do you have anything cogent to add? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm conflicted on asset seizure/forfeiture due to the widespread abuse. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:00:32 PM EDT
[#31]
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A stripper got her million bucks plus interest back from the state of Nebraska. Claimed dog could smell drug residue on cash https://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Woman-Suing-Nebraska-Wants-Million-Dollars-Returned-209807581.html What crock of shit. I'm glad she won. I'm hoping the state paid her legal fees as well. Off to read the article. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:00:49 PM EDT
[#32]
This case is going to result in the 8th Amend finally being incorporated to the States. The value of the vehicle seized was 4x the maximum fine for the crime committed
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:01:03 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. Forfeiture shouldn't occur until after conviction. Seizure shouldn't occur without a reasonable suspicion. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:01:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except that I can't sell it at public auction until I demonstrate to the court that it is abandoned property, and then receive an order of forfeiture form said court. Civil asset forfeiture is the debil. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:03:25 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All issues concerning the use of drug sniffing dogs aside, there's drug residue on just about every piece of paper money in this country. What crock of shit. I'm glad she won. I'm hoping the state paid her legal fees as well. Off to read the article. This article is much more detailed .nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2013/07/judge_returns_1_million_to_stripper_says_theres_no_proof_its_connected_to_drugs |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:03:25 PM EDT
[#36]
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Civil asset forfeiture without an accompanying criminal conviction is bs. Civil seizure assets should be directed to a jurisdictions general fund. If you wanna be honest about it, the property should be sold upon conviction and the proceeds disbursed to victims-not the ,gov. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:04:34 PM EDT
[#37]
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Any asset seizure before getting found guilty in a courtroom is wrong. Only time I can see auctioning off a person property, is if they owe money and cannot pay. Its flat out robbery......dont even give a shit if they bought it with drug money. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:05:12 PM EDT
[#38]
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It was pretty clear from your post that you shot from the hip, and don’t understand the problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm conflicted on asset seizure/forfeiture due to the widespread abuse. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." OP was talking about seizure. I asked him if he really meant forfeiture. He stuck with seizure. I pitched him shit, because seizure before conviction is not only reasonable, it is necessary. It so basic, the founders even saw fit to mention it in the bill of rights. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:06:06 PM EDT
[#39]
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@MotorMouth This article is much more detailed .nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2013/07/judge_returns_1_million_to_stripper_says_theres_no_proof_its_connected_to_drugs Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: All issues concerning the use of drug sniffing dogs aside, there's drug residue on just about every piece of paper money in this country. What crock of shit. I'm glad she won. I'm hoping the state paid her legal fees as well. Off to read the article. This article is much more detailed .nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2013/07/judge_returns_1_million_to_stripper_says_theres_no_proof_its_connected_to_drugs |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:07:15 PM EDT
[#40]
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Any asset seizure is wrong. Only time I can see auctioning off a person property, is if they owe money and cannot pay. Its flat out robbery......dont even give a shit if they bought it with drug money. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Any asset seizure before getting found guilty in a courtroom is wrong. Only time I can see auctioning off a person property, is if they owe money and cannot pay. Its flat out robbery......dont even give a shit if they bought it with drug money. See? This is what I mean about defining the problem. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:10:28 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of good if thatis your only way to your minimum wage job. I don't think this is that funny, TBH. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 11:16:36 PM EDT
[#42]
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I have no issues of them seizing assets after someone has been prosecuted and found guilty of said crime. But to seize assets before is nothing more than theft by govt |
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:01:55 AM EDT
[#43]
If they can prove illegal proceeds after a conviction, OK.
If they're going to seize something for auction to cover constitutionally compliant fines - which is what this case is actually about, for those not paying attention - OK. Take someone's shit without charging them, let alone convicting them? Not OK. Fuck right off with that bullshit. |
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:04:54 AM EDT
[#44]
Asset seizure/forfeiture PRIOR to a conviction is ABSOLUTE bullshit.
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:05:44 AM EDT
[#45]
I think the cops have gone nuts with asset seizures. It's become legalized theft where the burden of proof has been shifted to the victim to prove that the item(s) seized was lawfully acquired.
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:10:33 AM EDT
[#46]
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That's so fucking ridiculous, I have to assume you have no idea of what you're talking about. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm conflicted on asset seizure/forfeiture due to the widespread abuse. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." |
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:26:50 AM EDT
[#47]
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If they can prove illegal proceeds after a conviction, OK. If they're going to seize something for auction to cover constitutionally compliant fines - which is what this case is actually about, for those not paying attention - OK. Take someone's shit without charging them, let alone convicting them? Not OK. Fuck right off with that bullshit. What's being argued is that the forfeiture of a $42,000 car (used as a criminal instrument) for a crime that has a maximum penalty of $10,000 is so disproportionate that it violates the eighth amendment prohibition against excessive fines. FWIW, I agree that it is disproportionate/excessive, and I hope he prevails. |
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:28:58 AM EDT
[#48]
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your example is pants on head retarded. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm conflicted on asset seizure/forfeiture due to the widespread abuse. How does law enforcement secure the evidence necessary to garner conviction if they can't seize it? "Well, your honor, we found a kilo of cocaine in the defendant's possession, but since we couldn't seize until after he was convicted, we asked him to bring it to court today. We were shocked when he failed to produce the cocaine, and then testified that he has never seen cocaine before in his entire life." |
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:33:45 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Abandoned property is not really asset forfeiture. If nobody claims it, then it should go to the state (or finder). It isn't forfeited. Self incriminate yourself, or we steal your property. |
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:34:54 AM EDT
[#50]
Waco was a test of asset forfeiture.
Always Think Forfeiture https://boingboing.net/2008/06/09/atf-leatherman-tool.html |
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