Who?!?

How about interior door handles that fold away when you're driving so that if you're in a major collision that kills the vehicle's electrical systems there are no door handles and you have to find a hidden latch you've never used before or even (Tesla model X rear) have to prise out the speaker grills to get to a release cable.

No.

You speak of upgrades. I can TL/DR the fuck out of how you get a 60k dollar lawn ornament and fast.
I'll keep it short and sweet.

The fuckery I fix? Didn't exist when I was a teenager building trucks with simple fuses relays and solenoids...
I've seen aftermarket 12v+ wires bundled with can/bus network wires, cause RF/inductive (think how a timing light works) feedback and blown modules.
I've seen altered circuit resistance wipe out $$$ modules. Prime example, not even upgrading and modifying, a blown tail light bulb or turn signal bulb go on without being replaced, burning the driver out of a BCM.
Parasitic draws.
Modifications causing feedback, to altered output state controls, to inoperable circuits/things.

The list goes on.

You're wrong. Dead wrong. Stop. Defending. It.

There's no software/firmware upgrades to flash OEM modules to comply with aftermarket "things" like you naively think/hope.

From building brodozers, to Lenco Uparmored F450s/550s for DOE/SWAT/.mil, to Joe the landscapers F350 dually dump/plow truck, to Meat wagons, fire trucks, police use, tow trucks, you name it.

You're wrong. And you pay extra for it. Want to take a crack at it? You got a loicense for that interface and software to communicate with it M8?

It took a few attempts to read through this rambling nonsense and understand what the hell you were going on about. The upgrades I'm talking about are when the manufacturer wants to upgrade something. They can replace or modify modular systems much more easily than some giant monolithic system that controls everything in the car. I'm NOT talking about some moron making shitty aftermarket "upgrades."

False.

Peak automotive was early 00s.
You had state of the art fuel injection. Simplistic circuitry.
It actually would cost manufacturers more to revert to old school carburetors and distributors...
There's a few reasons why folks are LS swapping old trucks...They're getting the benefits of Both.
Same with guys buying up C30 duallys, slamming them to the ground and swapping a duramax and Allison.

Contrary to perpetuated myth. You can have both. At the same time.
You want a 80s C10 or K10? With manual windows? Lap belts? No air bags? No nanny state traction control stability control? 4.8 5.3 6.0 6.2 pushrod?
You can have that. With or without AC too...

 

Yes. God forbid people buy trucks for truck things... all hail the manufacturer and quasi government.

The manufacturer knows best.
Buys truck.
Adds snowplow.
Kills alternator left and right. Has parasitic draws galore. (Never mind fly-by-night hack artist uses scotch locks on networked head lamps)

Oops sorry you didn't turn on snowplow mode.

MaNuFaCtuReR uPgRaDeS dOh!

The market is incredibly clear as to what they want in a truck. A few weirdos clinging to the past don't mean anything to the manufacturers when 99.999% of the buyers aren't afraid of technology.

So, here's another smooth brain corporate commie bullshit thing.

Tesla charges for navigation subscription. There's a youtube channel that popped up in my feed, dudes going on about a 35k dollar tesla.
Turns out. That's a thing. But if you want "standard features"? Pay a shit ton for a software patch to unlock features, and monthly subscription for navigation...

Most will say. 10 bucks a month for navigation isn't bad, I pay ... for Onstar/other features with other manufacturers.
This is how things go sideways quick.

You. The plumber. You. The electrician. You. The tow truck/body shop owner. You. The northern landscaper that also plows snow/sands/salts driveways/parking lots? Right on to municipality vehicles like ambulances, fire trucks, police vehicles.
Everybody pay for a monthly subscription for a software patch to do truck things.

Oh? You want to run extra lights on a tow truck? Fuck you, pay me.
Oh? You want to plow snow? Fuck you, pay me.
Oh? You want to tow trailers? Fuck you, pay me.
You stop and think about that for a minute... if a manufacturer, can, and does, get a monthly fee to use navigation...
What's to prevent the rest from doing the same with a monthly subscription fee to utilize modular modules to output state control truck things, for a low monthly fee?
Afterall... it's not soo bad... just ask anyone who owns a diesel! They love that added arbitrary expense of unicorn pee for the exhaust after treatment.
It's just a low monthly fee!

Think you still own it? Oh but new vehicles are so much better you guys!!!

John Deere makes it impossible for farmer brown to fix his shit himself.

I'm not a fan of what's become of the automotive industry. Not at all. Manufacturers gargling .govs balls instead of saying take a flying shit through a rolling donut, I answer to my consumers.
And consumers defending it with...
Latest and greatest! Best there ever was and ever will be! But it's soo much easier! Why do you want carburetors and distributors! Manual injected diesels?! When that isn't what you've advocated for but okay... I guess...

You'll own nothing. And be happy.

If technology is government mandated, do buyers have a choice?

Stop pretending that free market choices are driving buyers preferences.  The market has very little to do with what tech vehicles have.  Especially the bullshit lengths manufacturers have to resort to in order to meet CAFE standards.  Let’s take away all government mandates from vehicle production and then see what the consumer wants.

It makes you look unintelligent.

It's not mutually exclusive. I'm happy to have the added safety features. As for the "iPad screens" and the other shit that these whiners also cry about, those aren't government mandated and it's clear the market likes that stuff too.

Crying about "technology" and "the communists" and "sensors" and "iPads" and "modules" and all the other shit people have cried about in this thread doesn't make them look like rugged individuals standing up against an overreaching government, it makes them look like the same luddites who decades ago cried about electronic ignitions, airbags, ABS, fuel injection, catalytic converters, seatbelts, etc...

We found the software/firmware corporate lackey.

Weirdos clinging to the past...
Yes. God forbid folks use trucks for truck things... if it didn't leave the factory like that, inherit lawn ornament.

How many super duties with up-fitted truck things like dump bodies, flat beds, running lights, etc have you fixed?
Never mind the DOE nuke reactor security trucks, .mil and swat uparmored trucks...
Never mind ambulances, firetrucks, law enforcement vehicles.
Never mind brodozers with 5k watt amp and subs, enough lights to turn a dark parking lot into day.

Just a simple F250-750 with truck things, for truck things, that caused massive electrical gremlins?
It ain't all its cracked up to be...

Once you see these things first hand, you'll understand where I'm coming from...
Just a simple failed light bulb = burned driver in BCM. Rather than a simple bulb replacement...
$$$ for new BCM, $$ for PMI replacement, plus labor to change bulb.
That fucks the consumer. Adds arbitrary expense. I don't stand for it. You didn't have that issue with relays solenoids and fuse panels.

Self driving vehicles. nope.
Know how many wives backed into things, including the hubby's new truck because "the back up beeper didn't go off until I hit it"!
Natural north east road salt intrusion on basic parking aid sensors in rear bumper covers. Made the sensor "blind/near/far sighted".
Just by altering the circuits resistance a little bit.

And people are thrilled about adaptive cruise to autonomous self driving shit boxes.
Riiigggghhhtttt.... because everywhere is a sterile conducive environment for that...

Oh but it'll be great! Removes human error! It can't go wrong with $$$$$ in redundancy and back up sensors!
Maybe in California Arizona Nevada dry places that never see salt do its trick on copper wiring...
Oh? What's that? It'll work like TPMS with radio frequencies? What's that? Fiber optics and LAN networks?
Because surely that won't bloat the cost of a vehicle to be R&D...passed onto consumers via MSRP bloat...
Never mind having to piss off the computer dorks and require Intel or AMD thread rippers for processing power needed to make all that shit work in sync...

That's where shits headed.

As far as airbags and nanny state nonsense?
You can keep the 87 cabin air bags.
Wait til you go to the insurance auction to grab a easy quick fixer upper for a knock around town beater.

Real life true story example.
A legitimate, grandma rear ended a truck, in her Cadillac ATS.

A total of about 1,500 in junkyard front clip, a new radiator condenser maybe upper support, would have been fixed in an afternoon and back on the road.
Very minor collision damage.
Had like maybe 32k miles on it if that.
Windows are tinted. Good fucking thing I opened the door and looked in...

No wonder the insurance company totaled it.
Go price out the entire interior for that car. Get back to me with the $ it would take to fix that destruction.
You're better off parting the car out for the engine trans differentials (it was awd) than you would for trying to fix it.

If we had a free market? You "neurotics/techies" would be able to have all the nanny state you want, and us "luddites" could transfer the savings from nanny state compliance/pampers and training wheels into adulthood, to angry snails on modern pushrod V8s to go 250k miles at 1,000+hp

This is some really advanced rambling. Next step is to move into a cabin in the woods and start mailing bombs to people.

You seem really emotional over this. Do you work for Volvo?

Am I a Luddite because I don't want a refrigerator with a touchscreen and WiFi? Just curious to where I stop being a Luddite and start being a smart person who sees that unnecessary electronic bullshit does nothing but drive up costs and lower reliability.

I don't. But I do enjoy all the amenities they offer, including a refrigerated compartment, touchscreen, and WiFi in the vehicle

Like I said before, if all this tech is just too much then why not daily drive a work truck from the 60s? Based on what I'm hearing from some people here that would be just about the most reliable vehicle ever made, be serviceable with nothing but basic hand tools, and is so lacking in convenience and safety features that it'll let everyone around them know how manly they are.

You are definitely emotional. Why all the insults and personal attacks?

It has nothing to do with being manly. It has to do with being intelligent and realizing that most of this electronic stuff on cars only increases vehicle costs, lowers long term reliability, and increases the difficulty and cost of repairs. For what? Wow factor? You sound like the guy who waits in line for every new iPhone.

People bitch about the average vehicle cost breaking the 40k mark. This is why, and don't blame it all on the .gov because the automakers are making bank on this too. They get to slap a couple hundred bucks worth of electronics on a vehicle and charge a couple grand more for the car.

It doesn't make him unintelligent... naive.

Because .gov and insurance companies will come along and refuse to insure or register vehicles from the 60s.
Like California did with gliders/commercial diesel trucks built prior to ever more restrictive emissions control devices.

Dunno….but I see that auto start stop is omitted due to chip shortage.  That is a win win.

He's making a strawman argument anyway. All this bullshit started around a decade ago with the touchscreens and the nanny driving aids started maybe 4 or 5 years ago.

No, it doesn't "only" do that. It helps you avoid hitting something or getting hit, and it helps reduce your chance of injury if a collision isn't avoidable. And the convenience features make your drive more pleasant. Sitting in traffic with air conditioned seats massaging you while you listen to music on a nice sound system is a lot more comfortable than sitting in traffic without AC on some shitty bench seat in the 60s truck some people worship. As you admit, auto makers are making money on this stuff... because most people realize the value and are willing to pay for it. It's not some communist-government conspiracy to drive up costs, it's technological progress.

In the end it doesn't really matter, you and the people who share your view are a tiny, and shrinking, segment of the market. You can stamp your feet and cling to the "old days" and insist everything new is worse and too complicated but outside of a forum discussion where someone argues with you just for fun nobody even cares what you think and the market will keep providing all that stuff you don't like to buyers who are happy to pay for it.

Ah, so you don't do it now because at some point in the future you think you might not be able to. Of course.

No, you don't drive that "simple, reliable" 60s truck because deep down you know it's miserable compared to modern vehicles. You just want to bitch and moan about progress.

You sound like one of the people who pushes "smart guns"

Who cares if it drives up costs? Who cares if it lowers reliability? Who cares if it complicates repairs? If it saves ONE life it's worth it!

Stop the "60s truck no AC" strawman. This bullshit started around 10 years ago.

One of the reasons you think "this is what buyers want" is because the automakers push the high trim vehicles and make it very difficult to buy the non-optioned out models.

This smells like a Toyota thread.

Htown156: Cries about strawmen, brings up smart guns.

The 60s truck isn't a straw man either, it's something you could drive if you wanted to, and it's got none of this evil technology that "only" drives costs and complexity up.

As for the higher optioned vehicles being what sells, you can always have the dealer order for you the most stripped down model or go buy a fleet vehicle. Dealers aren't going to fill their lots with that kind of stuff though because there are very few people looking for vehicles without features.

As a Manufacturing Engineer, I have to agree. I am constantly talking engineers out of over complicating every damn thing they design.

Attached File


You're failing to comprehend one. Simple. Thing.
The points put down and not picked up, are
The automotive industry as a whole is subject to regulation and mandate. Not free market.

I can't go order a truck sans 87 cabin airbags, traction and stability control. I don't want need or desire training wheels and pampers.
Should I disable that?
That's an added expense in time and money to make that happen and still function. That and... the whole... I commit a crime...

Laugh at this comparison if you will.
In Soviet shit holes? Nobody but .gov could own a black painted vehicle.
That was verboten.

Today?
Nobody can own emissions deleted diesels.
.gov can, I know. I modified them with their blessing. They're exempt.

All we are saying is, production was stifled because beer aids.
Drop half the regulations and mandates, so manufacturers can produce and sell or don't and enjoy this "new normal".
Drop even more so restrictive .gov mandates? Allow people to pick and choose what they want.
Not bundle all the things you don't want into a vehicle...

Let's draw a parallel.
Would you if forced by .gov regulation and mandate.

Would you buy hardware, software, pay a monthly subscription fee, to have a concealed carry pistol? That uses finger print, or RFID chips in a ring/bracelet, to unlock the hammer/striker lock interface, in order to shoot it? Or face a federal felony charge for non compliance or modifying it?
How about a rifle? A shot gun?

Vehicles and firearms are at the end of the day, things. Machines.
Not much stands in the way of such a future to arms, as what's current implemented in vehicles.

It's easy to say Fuck the diesel tuners, fuck the import tuners, fuck the hotrodders, fuck the bikers.
You can easily have what's being applied to vehicles, applied to firearms. And count on a spineless cuckservative to support it with but Muh compromisez!Muh frienz across the aisle-think big picturez! You can still own guns tho!

Sounds like the rambling of a poor in here OP

As a matter of fact, I get paid good money, as do my minions, to do just such a thing.
Along with fixing fly-by-night fuckery.

It's legit. Vehicles and firearms are what?
Machines.

You get paid to daily drive an ancient truck?

I'm not so sure you know what a straw man argument is.

Clearly you do not know what a strawman argument is. Me comparing you to a smart gun advocate is not a strawman argument. You framing my argument that I want a 60s era truck IS a strawman argument.

You can argue all you want but dealers and automakers push the high trimmed cars. This skews the "what buyers really want numbers." This is not hard to comprehend.

When the average vehicle costs breaks 50k in a few years we can all blame guys like you who can't live without foofy vehicle options and who applaud government mandates on what we buy.

I've wasted too much time on you. Have a good day and bless your heart.

In the truest spirit of GD, you being poor is not my problem.

My LX570 and wife Land Rovers have had very reliable arm rest refrigerators.

Also lol to those who seem unable to find a vehicle without all the electronic gizmos, you guys were blind the whole time and somehow buy the only shit vehicles on the market regularly.  Data on avg annual maintenance cost and warranty reserves tell us a great deal that most would just ignore.

The 2016 Ford F150 has over 600 computer chips in it.  I cannot believe that this number has decreased.

My background is mechanical engineering. I have a K.I.S.S. mentality towards machinery.

I laugh at the false dichotomy of absolutes.
Like you can't have a modern driveline in an older vehicle, and AC. Or touch screen interfaces and navigation WITH manual crank up windows or primitive fuse box chrome switch window up/down operation...

That if 1967 C10 short bed step side. Then. 2bbl Carburetor points distributor no AC.
You can have both. Simultaneously.

(Up until you can't insure/register them)

You must live in a very sparse area
Because this argument comes up on this forum often. I then post dozens of examples of stripped down trucks that are for sale. The only reason I can't this time is because of the current BS going on world wide.

Sometimes I get paid to put this.


And this.


And this.


Into this.


Most times I'm building brodozers or fixing regular trucks.

I have been told that a few times

damn...how TF did the NTSB approve that nonsense

you have the giant infotainment screen dont you?

Nope. I told gramps I'd never buy that Tojo Tin

Corvettes have had similar. Like they took the idea of shaved door handles with a remote popper, but used a button you tap with your finger in the door. Works great, Until the battery dies

@fettesbrotde


Nope GMC master race checking in

LoL

You know, not everyone secretly wants all the bells and whistles and are jealous of those that have them on their ride.

I daily drive a 2004 Chevy Z71 with 190,000 miles on it.  Power windows, A/C, power steering.  That’s about it.  No infotainment, no Bose radio, no wood grain, cloth seats, two cup holders.  I bought it new.

I’m going to buy my next truck along the same lines.  I’ll order it - crew cab, long bed, power windows, A/C, power steering, tow package.  That’s all I want.  It’s just a truck.  I have absolutely no desire to spend extra coin on items that give me no benefit.

It’s not about being able to afford it, as I make into the six figures in income.  It’s cost/benefit ratio for my personal choices.  My truck is transportation, nothing more.

ETA: I do have 1986 Chevy K10 I drive fairly often.  No A/C, no power windows, but does have power steering.  I drive it instead of my modern truck because I enjoy it.