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View Quote Thought outside the box, ended up outside the sub. |
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Quoted: This is really solid review of the failure mode and makes perfect sense. The flex broke the glue bond because of the dissimilar compression rates. Looking at what others have posted, the window popped out vs being a failure point. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: This is really solid review of the failure mode and makes perfect sense. The flex broke the glue bond because of the dissimilar compression rates. Looking at what others have posted, the window popped out vs being a failure point. This is what I was alluding to a few pages back when I asked about the bonding between the CF and the caps seemed like the logical failure point. What a waste. |
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I wonder if the bodies were extruded through the port hole opening. Like one of those Play Doh machines.
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Quoted: Is there a brief explanation for how carbon fiber expires in unused state? View Quote Probably not the CF itself but the sizing that holds the individual fibers together. Been doing filament winding for about 20 years now. If we use old fiber we have issues with winding. The fiber will ‘fuzz’ more and build up on eyelets and combs. This can then cause breakage of the fiber when winding. …just a PITA from a manufacturing perspective. We are constantly on our suppliers to not send us old shit but every spring they send us 6+ month old stuff. It also has something to do with storage conditions. On the final product it results in a cosmetic issue…you’ll get a fuzzball in the finish. We haven’t noticed decreased performance in the product however…we cycle and burst test routinely. In OceanGates application the fiber didnt matter due to their misapplied application which put all the force on the epoxy and not the fiber. |
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Quoted: This is really solid review of the failure mode and makes perfect sense. The flex broke the glue bond because of the dissimilar compression rates. Looking at what others have posted, the window popped out vs being a failure point. View Quote i wonder if they'll be able to find the window, mostly intact. would be interesting. can you imagine what that piece would command on the artifact black market? |
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Quoted: I wonder if the bodies were extruded through the port hole opening. Like one of those Play Doh machines. View Quote Pressure is going the other way. If the window failed there was a solid rod of water cutting through them like a laser. At least until enough air compressed to trigger an exothermic reaction. |
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Quoted: Pressure is going the other way. If the window failed there was a solid rod of water cutting through them like a laser. At least until enough air compressed to trigger an exothermic reaction. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if the bodies were extruded through the port hole opening. Like one of those Play Doh machines. Pressure is going the other way. If the window failed there was a solid rod of water cutting through them like a laser. At least until enough air compressed to trigger an exothermic reaction. They were the fuel in a single power stroke of a super high compression diesel engine. |
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The human body consists of 97% water.
At the moment of being exposed to the pressure at deep depths, air pockets or open spaces would instantly be compressed with air and other matter in those areas expelled. Those areas would then be filled with water. Some deformity would occur with open spaces collapsing but the idea of the body turned into a gelatinous mass or instantly combusting are not correct. |
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Quoted: They were the fuel in a single power stroke of a super high compression diesel engine. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if the bodies were extruded through the port hole opening. Like one of those Play Doh machines. Pressure is going the other way. If the window failed there was a solid rod of water cutting through them like a laser. At least until enough air compressed to trigger an exothermic reaction. They were the fuel in a single power stroke of a super high compression diesel engine. Deleted |
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Quoted: The human body consists of 97% water. At the moment of being exposed to the pressure at deep depths, air pockets or open spaces would instantly be compressed with air and other matter in those areas expelled. Those areas would then be filled with water. Some deformity would occur with open spaces collapsing but the idea of the body turned into a gelatinous mass or instantly combusting are not correct. View Quote More like 70% water, not 97%. Sudden increase in pressure to 380 atm would burst most cells. The compression of the air results in temperatures of 2500° F, however the incoming water would extinguish that pretty quickly. |
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Quoted: They were the fuel in a single power stroke of a super high compression diesel engine. View Quote Not singling you out here - at all - you were just the most recent in a loooong string of comments speculating on what happened to the bodies. It's fascinating to me to ponder that these guys were in such a hostile environment that, all speculation aside, we simply do not experientially *know* what happened to them, yet. In the interest of science I hope they find whatever pieces of body remain findable (short of using a giant pool skimmer to strain the ocean). I mean, yes, I think what's been posted here about the massive pressure differential and the sudden change in pressure and how water behaves as a solid at these pressures (think waterjet cutters, writ large) and how rapidly compressing air superheats it and essentially causes it to auto-ignite whatever carbon-based fuel is present like a diesel engine and our bodies are a matrix of highly compressible tissues and highly incompressible fluids and......my run-on sentence is intentional here. We know, for certain, that the reaction that happens during a catastrophic hull failure is a radical and immediately life-ending event. Not only did they die, but their remains probably largely changed from bodies to a large collection of small parts. This just seems like a good time to underscore the magnitude of Rush's arrogance here. He subjected himself and 4 other people (this time, anyway) to a death that modern science can't even accurately describe beyond some theoretical predictions. Consider that. 120 pages and we still can't describe all the mechanisms of force their bodies would have been subjected to. When I was living in east TN I got stuck in traffic one day behind a woodchipper crew collecting storm debris along the roadsides. Between houses they'd ride on the inlet frame of the woodchipper, with it still running. This was monumentally stupid on their part (though nobody slipped and fell that day), but I could at least describe what might happen to them had they slipped and stuck a leg in the chipper throat. With this submersible implosion, science can't even describe how they'd die, just that they'd certainly do so rapidly in a spectacular fashion. |
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Quoted: This is really solid review of the failure mode and makes perfect sense. The flex broke the glue bond because of the dissimilar compression rates. Looking at what others have posted, the window popped out vs being a failure point. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: This is really solid review of the failure mode and makes perfect sense. The flex broke the glue bond because of the dissimilar compression rates. Looking at what others have posted, the window popped out vs being a failure point. I’m not convinced it was the glue failure that caused the implosion. Just like the viewing window or the 17 bolts holding the cap on, the underwater pressure would’ve been squeezing both end caps onto the tube, holding them in place against the carbon fiber hull tube. I’m still thinking it was the carbon fiber itself that was the failure point, and the glue let go during the implosion. Perhaps the forces of the end caps pressing on the tube contributed to it. |
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@arowneragain, well said. The closest thing we have is Byford, and that was decompression from 9 atm to 1. This is compression from 1 to 380 atm.
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Quoted: They were the fuel in a single power stroke of a super high compression diesel engine. View Quote Attached File |
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Has anyone found out why they were wrapping the carbon fiber perpendicular to the hull rather than diagonally like on paintball pressure bottles and other types of CF vessels?
I thought that was a bit out of the ordinary the first time I saw them doing it. I guess it's easier with the machines they had? |
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What If You Dove Under Water At a Pressure of 1000 Bars |
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Quoted: This is really solid review of the failure mode and makes perfect sense. The flex broke the glue bond because of the dissimilar compression rates. Looking at what others have posted, the window popped out vs being a failure point. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: This is really solid review of the failure mode and makes perfect sense. The flex broke the glue bond because of the dissimilar compression rates. Looking at what others have posted, the window popped out vs being a failure point. That makes sense from the pics. The window seemed similar to other submersibles. I still can't comprehend why carbon fiber would be used. |
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Quoted: @arowneragain, well said. The closest thing we have is Byford, and that was decompression from 9 atm to 1. This is compression from 1 to 380 atm. View Quote This is essentially unknown territory. The difference from decompressing from 9 ATM to 1 ATM is crazy to think about. The compression from 1 ATM to 380 ATM, is mind blowing. |
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Quoted: Has anyone found out why they were wrapping the carbon fiber perpendicular to the hull rather than diagonally like on paintball pressure bottles and other types of CF vessels? I thought that was a bit out of the ordinary the first time I saw them doing it. I guess it's easier with the machines they had? View Quote Because it was a flat cylinder. No end domes to wrap a helical wrap around. Still wouldn’t have made a difference in this application. |
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Quoted: This is essentially unknown territory. The difference from decompressing from 9 ATM to 1 ATM is crazy to think about. The compression from 1 ATM to 380 ATM, is mind blowing. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: @arowneragain, well said. The closest thing we have is Byford, and that was decompression from 9 atm to 1. This is compression from 1 to 380 atm. This is essentially unknown territory. The difference from decompressing from 9 ATM to 1 ATM is crazy to think about. The compression from 1 ATM to 380 ATM, is mind blowing. While I guess it's a bit morbid, I kinda wish they'd have had a chaser ROV filming the sub's descent. With all due respect to the passengers, it would be fascinating to see what actually happened. |
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Quoted: While I guess it's a bit morbid, I kinda wish they'd have had a chaser ROV filming the sub's descent. With all due respect to the passengers, it would be fascinating to see what actually happened. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: @arowneragain, well said. The closest thing we have is Byford, and that was decompression from 9 atm to 1. This is compression from 1 to 380 atm. This is essentially unknown territory. The difference from decompressing from 9 ATM to 1 ATM is crazy to think about. The compression from 1 ATM to 380 ATM, is mind blowing. While I guess it's a bit morbid, I kinda wish they'd have had a chaser ROV filming the sub's descent. With all due respect to the passengers, it would be fascinating to see what actually happened. I imagine there was a loud Crack followed by a fwoomp sound, then a cloud of people matter and sub parts |
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If i was selling a 250,000 dollar trip to Billionaires,
i would have an external wide view camera on an outrigger to capture the glory shot of the sub in front of the wreck. maybe they could remote trigger the cameras it would could useful to be able to inspect the the hull and surrounding area from external cameras if you were hung up on debris it is completely dark down there, so the sub had long throw lights to illuminate the wreck i assume it had some navigation beacon lights |
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Quoted: My guess is at those pressures it’s not like you’d see a drip and then seconds later a fail. It would all just go. That either something showing it had been letting water in and the adhesive was failing or that’s where the adhesives used weren’t totally bonded View Quote What are the chances that the CF tube was machined or cut 100% true and square with the titanium ring? And that the titanium ring was the same. Machining off that much stock from a plate you are going to relieve a lot of residual stresses, and that ring will move or twist a little as soon as it’s taken out of the clamps holding in down on the machine table or whatever they used to machine that part. And I doubt they paid for or knew to ask for a stress relieved plate - that would not be inspirational So it would be a high percentage bet to say the ring and tube were not seated perfectly to each other all 360 degrees around that joint. Despite what their video claimed. |
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Quoted: I imagine there was a loud Crack followed by a fwoomp sound, then a cloud of people matter and sub parts View Quote If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, does it actually make a sound? I am sure they did not have the time to process the sounds or sights of the implosion. |
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Quoted: What are the chances that the CF tube was machined or cut 100% true and square with the titanium ring? And that the titanium ring was the same. Machining off that much stock from a plate you are going to relieve a lot of residual stresses, and that ring will move or twist a little as soon as it’s taken out of the clamps holding in down on the machine table or whatever they used to machine that part. And I doubt they paid for or knew to ask for a stress relieved plate - that would not be inspirational So it would be a high percentage bet to say the ring and tube were not seated perfectly to each other all 360 degrees around that joint. Despite what their video claimed. View Quote What are you talking about, man? They said they carefully and precisely aligned and assembled it. The video even shows them doing it, in a dirty shop/warehouse, with a garden variety OH crane. |
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Quoted: I imagine there was a loud Crack followed by a fwoomp sound, then a cloud of people matter and sub parts View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: @arowneragain, well said. The closest thing we have is Byford, and that was decompression from 9 atm to 1. This is compression from 1 to 380 atm. This is essentially unknown territory. The difference from decompressing from 9 ATM to 1 ATM is crazy to think about. The compression from 1 ATM to 380 ATM, is mind blowing. While I guess it's a bit morbid, I kinda wish they'd have had a chaser ROV filming the sub's descent. With all due respect to the passengers, it would be fascinating to see what actually happened. I imagine there was a loud Crack followed by a fwoomp sound, then a cloud of people matter and sub parts Anyone who has watched the videos of the oil drums or rail tankers full of steam imploding upon cooling and compression under 1 atm has a good idea what it would look like. It would be faster than you could see. A shockwave, flash of light, and then a dirty spot descending to the depths. |
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Quoted: If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, does it actually make a sound? I am sure they did not have the time to process the sounds or sights of the implosion. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I imagine there was a loud Crack followed by a fwoomp sound, then a cloud of people matter and sub parts If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, does it actually make a sound? I am sure they did not have the time to process the sounds or sights of the implosion. If the navy is listening, yes it does |
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Quoted: If the navy is listening, yes it does View Quote I was obviously being sarcastic. But I do believe all onboard that ill fated submersible did not have the time to process anything going on around them. Could they have heard creaking of the hull increase? Perhaps. And if they were hearing that, I'm sure the shitbag Rush told them it was normal. But when the implosion happened it was unlikely they even had a chance to think WTF? |
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Quoted: I was obviously being sarcastic. But I do believe all onboard that ill fated submersible did not have the time to process anything going on around them. Could they have heard creaking of the hull increase? Perhaps. And if they were hearing that, I'm sure the shitbag Rush told them it was normal. But when the implosion happened it was unlikely they even had a chance to think WTF? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: If the navy is listening, yes it does I was obviously being sarcastic. But I do believe all onboard that ill fated submersible did not have the time to process anything going on around them. Could they have heard creaking of the hull increase? Perhaps. And if they were hearing that, I'm sure the shitbag Rush told them it was normal. But when the implosion happened it was unlikely they even had a chance to think WTF? I know you were being sarcastic, I was being a smartass. I think the crew kind of knew they were close to death because James cameron said they dropped ballast and were trying to come up when the implosion happened. So maybe there was a loud crack, they started getting nervous, tried to go up and left this realm in a nanosecond |
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Quoted: I know you were being sarcastic, I was being a smartass. I think the crew kind of knew they were close to death because James cameron said they dropped ballast and were trying to come up when the implosion happened. So maybe there was a loud crack, they started getting nervous, tried to go up and left this realm in a nanosecond View Quote I do wonder about the dropping ballast thing. How does anyone know if this happened with no communication? Was Cameron saying this as a way to enforce his belief the sub was dangerous or did the mother ship actually know they dropped ballast and relay this through the deep sea dive community? |
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Imagine being down there near the bottom of the Titanic and then you see a warning on the computer screen of the hull monitoring system. The lights go from green to red in an instant showing the hull is start to slowly crack. You drop all your ballast in an emergency dump and start your 1hr 45min ascent back to the surface as fast as you can.
Everyone inside is quiet, listening to the hull creaking and making sounds like they have never heard before and it's slowly getting louder and louder. You're looking at the depth gauge and you're barely at 10,000 ft, slowly rising. The people on board had to sit and hear the creaking sounds until they got to @3,500 ft and it started to give them hope they really might make it, and then it finally gave way imploding within a nano second it was all over. |
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Quoted: Imagine being down there near the bottom of the Titanic and then you see a warning on the computer screen of the hull monitoring system. The lights go from green to red in an instant showing the hull is start to slowly crack. You drop all your ballast in an emergency dump and start your 1hr 45min ascent back to the surface as fast as you can. Everyone inside is quiet, listening to the hull creaking and making sounds like they have never heard before and it's slowly getting louder and louder. You're looking at the depth gauge and you're barely at 10,000 ft, slowly rising. The people on board had to sit and hear the creaking sounds until they got to @3,500 ft and it started to give them hope they really might make it, and then it finally gave way imploding within a nano second it was all over. View Quote Well said. |
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Quoted: If i was selling a 250,000 dollar trip to Billionaires, i would have an external wide view camera on an outrigger to capture the glory shot of the sub in front of the wreck. maybe they could remote trigger the cameras it would could useful to be able to inspect the the hull and surrounding area from external cameras if you were hung up on debris it is completely dark down there, so the sub had long throw lights to illuminate the wreck i assume it had some navigation beacon lights View Quote I think you'd be asking a bit much from them. |
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Quoted: Imagine being down there near the bottom of the Titanic and then you see a warning on the computer screen of the hull monitoring system. The lights go from green to red in an instant showing the hull is start to slowly crack. You drop all your ballast in an emergency dump and start your 1hr 45min ascent back to the surface as fast as you can. Everyone inside is quiet, listening to the hull creaking and making sounds like they have never heard before and it's slowly getting louder and louder. You're looking at the depth gauge and you're barely at 10,000 ft, slowly rising. The people on board had to sit and hear the creaking sounds until they got to @3,500 ft and it started to give them hope they really might make it, and then it finally gave way imploding within a nano second it was all over. View Quote Creepy, but I don't think they had that much warning. First sign something was amiss was comms going out - no doubt due to the actual implosion. |
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Quoted: Imagine being down there near the bottom of the Titanic and then you see a warning on the computer screen of the hull monitoring system. The lights go from green to red in an instant showing the hull is start to slowly crack. You drop all your ballast in an emergency dump and start your 1hr 45min ascent back to the surface as fast as you can. Everyone inside is quiet, listening to the hull creaking and making sounds like they have never heard before and it's slowly getting louder and louder. You're looking at the depth gauge and you're barely at 10,000 ft, slowly rising. The people on board had to sit and hear the creaking sounds until they got to @3,500 ft and it started to give them hope they really might make it, and then it finally gave way imploding within a nano second it was all over. View Quote Attached File |
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Quoted: Creepy, but I don't think they had that much warning. First sign something was amiss was comms going out - no doubt due to the actual implosion. View Quote when they lost comms? It might of been Cameron or someone else, I don't recall. They probably got to about ~10k feet or so and got some sort of warning that things were going south and began to ascend. But you're never going to outrun a catastrophic problem like that. You have a looooong way to go before you're back into a safe pressure zone. |
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Quoted: I do wonder about the dropping ballast thing. How does anyone know if this happened with no communication? Was Cameron saying this as a way to enforce his belief the sub was dangerous or did the mother ship actually know they dropped ballast and relay this through the deep sea dive community? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I know you were being sarcastic, I was being a smartass. I think the crew kind of knew they were close to death because James cameron said they dropped ballast and were trying to come up when the implosion happened. So maybe there was a loud crack, they started getting nervous, tried to go up and left this realm in a nanosecond I do wonder about the dropping ballast thing. How does anyone know if this happened with no communication? Was Cameron saying this as a way to enforce his belief the sub was dangerous or did the mother ship actually know they dropped ballast and relay this through the deep sea dive community? He claimed he heard from the submersible community so maybe a crew member told someone and eventually it got to Cameron. The communication between Titan and the mothership was spotty so maybe they were able to say they dropped ballast |
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OCEAN GATE TITAN HULL UNDERWATER PRESSURE 400bar CARBON SHELL |
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Quoted: Didn't someone in one of the YT videos mention that they had aborted the dive and were managing some sort of emergency when they lost comms? It might of been Cameron or someone else, I don't recall. They probably got to about ~10k feet or so and got some sort of warning that things were going south and began to ascend. But you're never going to outrun a catastrophic problem like that. You have a looooong way to go before you're back into a safe pressure zone. View Quote As I understand it they pretty much had to be near depth when they lost comms, they weren't particularly surprised about losing comms, they probably continued the dive, apparently had *some sort* of warning - whether a crack or an alert from the hull monitors - and jettisoned ballast to ascend. The thing is, if a hull cracks at, say, 11000', not only has your hull reached its max limit of 11k, but the crack has now reduced that limit to something less than 11k, and even if you start to ascend, you're still at 11k, putting pressure on the crack. With a rifle, an overpressure round might be bad enough to cause damage but the pressure is gone in an instant and you might live to fix the problem. With a sub, you now have a ruined hull and you're still at the pressure that ruined it. Kasploosh. Whether the process of going from alarm to kasploosh took 1/2 second, 10 seconds, or 5 minutes, we don't know yet. I think at this point the USCG and Navy and whoever else is investigating, have enough info to at least speculate on that timeline, but there's no reason for them to dribble such info to us at the moment. I still believe they'll use the size of the known debris field, and the timeline established by correlating sonar records with the mother ship's comm records, possibly with some data from a camera mounted on the outside of the vessel's hull that could in theory have survived, to model a likely timeline. And we'll get to see that, eventually. |
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Quoted: I still believe they'll use the size of the known debris field, and the timeline established by correlating sonar records with the mother ship's comm records, possibly with some data from a camera mounted on the outside of the vessel's hull that could in theory have survived, to model a likely timeline. And we'll get to see that, eventually. View Quote This is interesting. And I have not given it much thought. With an implosion, there is a chance the camera/storage card survived. That would be helpful to understand the timeline, for sure. But I am guessing very few will ever see that video. |
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Quoted: Imagine being down there near the bottom of the Titanic and then you see a warning on the computer screen of the hull monitoring system. The lights go from green to red in an instant showing the hull is start to slowly crack. You drop all your ballast in an emergency dump and start your 1hr 45min ascent back to the surface as fast as you can. Everyone inside is quiet, listening to the hull creaking and making sounds like they have never heard before and it's slowly getting louder and louder. You're looking at the depth gauge and you're barely at 10,000 ft, slowly rising. The people on board had to sit and hear the creaking sounds until they got to @3,500 ft and it started to give them hope they really might make it, and then it finally gave way imploding within a nano second it was all over. View Quote But they didn’t even make it all the way down (at least what I gathered about the time from launch until loss of any communications or signals). Maybe if they find a SD card the CG can find out how deep they got and how they reacted - if they even had time to react. |
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I get the impression from the pre-incident media interviews that this guy was working hard to raise his and the company's profile, so you've got to give him credit for that. Mission accomplished.
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Quoted: I get the impression from the pre-incident media interviews that this guy was working hard to raise his and the company's profile, so you've got to give him credit for that. Mission accomplished. View Quote There's an exception to every rule, I think this is the exception to "there is no bad publicity." |
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I have to wonder if the kid had time to work his Rubik's Cube.
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