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Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:19:18 PM EDT
[#1]




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LEO only class??
NRA precision rifle is police only.... if you close to ohio, you can take my class, we shoot out to 900y  
all the info you need is in the PDF flyer attached,...

https://www.box.com/s/m6f3ykzu391w5m1d5qvj






who is this class geared for?




[div style='font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica;']someone who hasnt shot much past 100/200y and wants to stretch their legs some, someone that wants to get into the tactical precision rifle sport or someone who is new to the sport and wants to get better.




someone that wants to lean how to you there tools to achieve the best results they can, and pick up some helpful tips to get even better.















150 rounds




and wolf is fine?





[div]



[div]



[div]150 because no one had any ammo this year, or couldnt find any to use...most 1 day clases are 200 or less rounds for PR [div] you can use any ammo you can shoot 1moa or less with... if you gun shoots wolf at 1moa then why not..



 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:20:11 PM EDT
[#2]
HA

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Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:21:28 PM EDT
[#3]
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pssstt.... i teach long precision rifle... i have taught MIL, LE, and civ...  
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holy balls do those guys have poor form.....



Please post pics of your form.

What would you consider a proper prone form for shooting presicion?

Remember this is pretty short range shooting. LE snipers aren't going to take a 900 yrd shot.

Being in line with the rifle for a quick follow up shot is pretty basic.
pssstt.... i teach long precision rifle... i have taught MIL, LE, and civ...  


I gathered that. Ok so the picture posted legs weren't spread enough for you.

Long range is not what LE snipers really do.
That course is a 200 yrd max course.
It is a basic sniper/observer course. They aren't shooting 1000yrds.
Hell the course has multiple stations where you run 50yds pick up a round and run back 50yds to your rifle. 9 rounds in 7 mins @ 100yrds.
Again this is about running up a flight of steps to a rooftop and taking a 40yrd head shot.

Have you met Mr. Boone?
He also teaches LE/FBI you aren't the only one.
I asked a simple question, sorry if it got your panties in a wad.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:22:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Not picking on the  officers but when I went to SWAT school I would have have to drop down and give them 20 pushups for NOT keeping my feet flat. Is that NOT taught anymore?
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:27:03 PM EDT
[#5]
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Not picking on the  officers but when I went to SWAT school I would have have to drop down and give them 20 pushups for NOT keeping my feet flat. Is that NOT taught anymore?
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it was taught in my national class i attended and my state certification class, along with several other private classes i attended.....however

in all classes we shot alot of rounds and if someone did not adhere completely and they still were shooting well continuously, the instructors generally didn't cause to much fuss
there are so many factors that go into precision shooting, that many others were stressed ahead of having your feet completely on the ground
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:27:17 PM EDT
[#6]
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Not picking on the  officers but when I went to SWAT school I would have have to drop down and give them 20 pushups for NOT keeping my feet flat. Is that NOT taught anymore?
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Yes but that picture most likely was a getting into position/ checking parallax photo.
Doesn't look as if anyone is ready to shoot.
Notice bolts are to the rear.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:31:46 PM EDT
[#7]

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Great- training to kill people in their own homes.





and I don't know if they're as much "snipers" as they are just designated marksman. But everyone gets a trophy I suppose.
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"We are a small community, but there are six times we have had folks barricade themselves in their homes,” said Clanton Police Chief Brian Stilwell. "We have had our sniper ready to take the shot






Great- training to kill people in their own homes.





and I don't know if they're as much "snipers" as they are just designated marksman. But everyone gets a trophy I suppose.


 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:38:36 PM EDT
[#8]
i count at least 6 people on their tippy toes, and quite a few off center like this






both do nothing but hurt you for recoil control and fast follow ups...




can u still make a good shot from a crap position?...




sure... but not consistently... and if your in a class to learn, body position is 1 of the 1st fundamentals you learn, that and trigger control..






 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:42:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Some of those occifers look like they got the jimmy legs.  Nice lower body positioning...  
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:45:48 PM EDT
[#10]
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Yeah...thats pretty damn funny right there..
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:47:51 PM EDT
[#11]
this also is bad form...




but a great ass....
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:51:16 PM EDT
[#12]
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this also is bad form...http://i.imgur.com/tKfFKm1.gif

but a great ass....
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There is nothing bad about that form
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:51:54 PM EDT
[#13]
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it was taught in my national class i attended and my state certification class, along with several other private classes i attended.....however

in all classes we shot alot of rounds and if someone did not adhere completely and they still were shooting well continuously, the instructors generally didn't cause to much fuss
there are so many factors that go into precision shooting, that many others were stressed ahead of having your feet completely on the ground
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Quoted:
Not picking on the  officers but when I went to SWAT school I would have have to drop down and give them 20 pushups for NOT keeping my feet flat. Is that NOT taught anymore?


it was taught in my national class i attended and my state certification class, along with several other private classes i attended.....however

in all classes we shot alot of rounds and if someone did not adhere completely and they still were shooting well continuously, the instructors generally didn't cause to much fuss
there are so many factors that go into precision shooting, that many others were stressed ahead of having your feet completely on the ground


Right on.  Some shooters can't get a foot flat.  Every person is different and if it works it works.  I have a shitty right ankle from football, work, backpacking, and mountaineering and can't get that foot to rotate over.  Guess what, it's not textbook and I can shoot just fine like that.  It's one picture with little info or context, but then again the GD crowd are experts at doing that.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:02:56 PM EDT
[#14]

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no...  


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Quoted:


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Those look like really bad prone positions to me.

Not a single bent leg, no open legged positions.






Looks like a pretty standard LE sniper position to me.  Minimal profile, feet dug in, allows for quickest follow up shot.
no...  



this is proper...






Depends on who you ask.



The FBI folks didn't like that stance.



 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:05:43 PM EDT
[#15]
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big difference between military and police....generally you are aiming for a 1moa area at 100 yards, and your subject will be generally 75 yards in and less
.mil is aiming over very long distances, all in all however the moa is still the same....

its not that easy....

been to multiple schools
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I alway thought it would be stupid easy to be a PD sniper. You mostly watch and observe and if you have to shoot, at max a shot at 100 yards.

And needing a $3,500 rifle to make those shots seem stupid to me. Im sure some cost more and some cost less, but you dont need much rifle to shoot sub moa at 100 yards.

If I am wrong please school me. seems money would be better spent training like in op. 90% is unacceptable hit percentage at 100 yards. Come one, they call themselve snipers. They should be past this learning curve if they are already a PD sniper



big difference between military and police....generally you are aiming for a 1moa area at 100 yards, and your subject will be generally 75 yards in and less
.mil is aiming over very long distances, all in all however the moa is still the same....

its not that easy....

been to multiple schools


Police can't be snipers by definition, since real snipers support military units by providing:

* Advance point target reconnaissance and surveillance before a deliberate attack or raid
* Precision fire capabilities with a high probability of 1st-round hit at extended distances on select enemy personnel and materiel targets
* Forward Observer capabilities for directing organic indirect and Close Air Support assets to destroy enemy personnel, vehicles, and positions
* Precision fire support for the support-by-fire position for a dismounted or mounted infantry unit
* Advance, rear, or flank guards during movement of an infantry squad, platoon, or company
* Stay-behind operations

A Police marksmen/sharpshooter is a different skill set, with very few overlapping similarities.  A true sniper is already accustomed to mission durations that would crush the mental and emotional capacity of most LE professionals, being away from developed world infrastructure, unless said LEO's have a military infantry or sniping background.

A true sniper has been selected from an infantry battalion usually after years of service in said unit, learning the various entry-level duty positions in a Rifle Platoon, with maturity being one of the most important attributes in the soldier.  Most school-trained and combat-experienced snipers have spent a lot of time in their Battalion's Scout or Reconnaissance Platoon, so they already perform all the skills that a sniper does, minus the precision rifle intermediate and long-range shooting with an assigned rifle for those purposes.

The best thing that these LE courses could do would be to get out of the prone and run at least 75% of the course shooting from alternate positions in terrain appropriate for their jurisdiction.  They also need to ditch the bolt guns and adopt precision semi-auto carbines that will allow dealing with contingencies like the Russians encountered at Beslan, or Kenya just did in Nairobi.  Ending the course with as much scenario-based training under stress with realistic equipment should be the focus, not laying in the prone in t-shirts and boonie hats with a Rem 700, even if stress-fire is incorporated into the prone drills.

LE managers need to ditch the "sniper" terminology and correctly identify their sharpshooters or marksmen, while adopting an appropriate training approach that reflects the reality of their jurisdictional area, and leave the invalidated habits of the 1980's and 90's in the past.  If you want to be a real sniper, join the military, have the ability to pass the psychological tests, eyesight, physical fitness, and Commander's recommendation, after no less than 2 years in the infantry, then volunteer for the Scout Platoon selection or get a slot if your Company can get one.

If you want to provide a critical LE solution to dicey stand-offs where collateral damage is likely in the civilian world, seek competent training solutions that don't follow the norms we have seen for the past 30 years.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:05:53 PM EDT
[#16]

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I knew I saw some sexy on the firing line.
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Good times.




I see at least two very sexy arfcops in that photo.


Me, homo, and who else?





 




I knew I saw some sexy on the firing line.




 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:06:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Ohio Long Range,

Serious question, what are your qualifications to be a precision rifle instructor ?
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:08:51 PM EDT
[#18]
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Police can't be snipers by definition, since real snipers support military units by providing:

* Advance point target reconnaissance and surveillance before a deliberate attack or raid
* Precision fire capabilities with a high probability of 1st-round hit at extended distances on select enemy personnel and materiel targets
* Forward Observer capabilities for directing organic indirect and Close Air Support assets to destroy enemy personnel, vehicles, and positions
* Precision fire support for the support-by-fire position for a dismounted or mounted infantry unit
* Advance, rear, or flank guards during movement of an infantry squad, platoon, or company
* Stay-behind operations

A Police marksmen/sharpshooter is a different skill set, with very few overlapping similarities.  A true sniper is already accustomed to mission durations that would crush the mental and emotional capacity of most LE professionals, being away from developed world infrastructure, unless said LEO's have a military infantry or sniping background.

A true sniper has been selected from an infantry battalion usually after years of service in said unit, learning the various entry-level duty positions in a Rifle Platoon, with maturity being one of the most important attributes in the soldier.  Most school-trained and combat-experienced snipers have spent a lot of time in their Battalion's Scout or Reconnaissance Platoon, so they already perform all the skills that a sniper does, minus the precision rifle intermediate and long-range shooting with an assigned rifle for those purposes.

The best thing that these LE courses could do would be to get out of the prone and run at least 75% of the course shooting from alternate positions in terrain appropriate for their jurisdiction.  They also need to ditch the bolt guns and adopt precision semi-auto carbines that will allow dealing with contingencies like the Russians encountered at Beslan, or Kenya just did in Nairobi.  Ending the course with as much scenario-based training under stress with realistic equipment should be the focus, not laying in the prone in t-shirts and boonie hats with a Rem 700, even if stress-fire is incorporated into the prone drills.

LE managers need to ditch the "sniper" terminology and correctly identify their sharpshooters or marksmen, while adopting an appropriate training approach that reflects the reality of their jurisdictional area, and leave the invalidated habits of the 1980's and 90's in the past.  If you want to be a real sniper, join the military, have the ability to pass the psychological tests, eyesight, physical fitness, and Commander's recommendation, after no less than 2 years in the infantry, then volunteer for the Scout Platoon selection or get a slot if your Company can get one.

If you want to provide a critical LE solution to dicey stand-offs where collateral damage is likely in the civilian world, seek competent training solutions that don't follow the norms we have seen for the past 30 years.
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I alway thought it would be stupid easy to be a PD sniper. You mostly watch and observe and if you have to shoot, at max a shot at 100 yards.

And needing a $3,500 rifle to make those shots seem stupid to me. Im sure some cost more and some cost less, but you dont need much rifle to shoot sub moa at 100 yards.

If I am wrong please school me. seems money would be better spent training like in op. 90% is unacceptable hit percentage at 100 yards. Come one, they call themselve snipers. They should be past this learning curve if they are already a PD sniper



big difference between military and police....generally you are aiming for a 1moa area at 100 yards, and your subject will be generally 75 yards in and less
.mil is aiming over very long distances, all in all however the moa is still the same....

its not that easy....

been to multiple schools


Police can't be snipers by definition, since real snipers support military units by providing:

* Advance point target reconnaissance and surveillance before a deliberate attack or raid
* Precision fire capabilities with a high probability of 1st-round hit at extended distances on select enemy personnel and materiel targets
* Forward Observer capabilities for directing organic indirect and Close Air Support assets to destroy enemy personnel, vehicles, and positions
* Precision fire support for the support-by-fire position for a dismounted or mounted infantry unit
* Advance, rear, or flank guards during movement of an infantry squad, platoon, or company
* Stay-behind operations

A Police marksmen/sharpshooter is a different skill set, with very few overlapping similarities.  A true sniper is already accustomed to mission durations that would crush the mental and emotional capacity of most LE professionals, being away from developed world infrastructure, unless said LEO's have a military infantry or sniping background.

A true sniper has been selected from an infantry battalion usually after years of service in said unit, learning the various entry-level duty positions in a Rifle Platoon, with maturity being one of the most important attributes in the soldier.  Most school-trained and combat-experienced snipers have spent a lot of time in their Battalion's Scout or Reconnaissance Platoon, so they already perform all the skills that a sniper does, minus the precision rifle intermediate and long-range shooting with an assigned rifle for those purposes.

The best thing that these LE courses could do would be to get out of the prone and run at least 75% of the course shooting from alternate positions in terrain appropriate for their jurisdiction.  They also need to ditch the bolt guns and adopt precision semi-auto carbines that will allow dealing with contingencies like the Russians encountered at Beslan, or Kenya just did in Nairobi.  Ending the course with as much scenario-based training under stress with realistic equipment should be the focus, not laying in the prone in t-shirts and boonie hats with a Rem 700, even if stress-fire is incorporated into the prone drills.

LE managers need to ditch the "sniper" terminology and correctly identify their sharpshooters or marksmen, while adopting an appropriate training approach that reflects the reality of their jurisdictional area, and leave the invalidated habits of the 1980's and 90's in the past.  If you want to be a real sniper, join the military, have the ability to pass the psychological tests, eyesight, physical fitness, and Commander's recommendation, after no less than 2 years in the infantry, then volunteer for the Scout Platoon selection or get a slot if your Company can get one.

If you want to provide a critical LE solution to dicey stand-offs where collateral damage is likely in the civilian world, seek competent training solutions that don't follow the norms we have seen for the past 30 years.


Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:09:28 PM EDT
[#19]


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Quoted:
Police can't be snipers by definition, since real snipers support military units by providing:





* Advance point target reconnaissance and surveillance before a deliberate attack or raid


* Precision fire capabilities with a high probability of 1st-round hit at extended distances on select enemy personnel and materiel targets


* Forward Observer capabilities for directing organic indirect and Close Air Support assets to destroy enemy personnel, vehicles, and positions


* Precision fire support for the support-by-fire position for a dismounted or mounted infantry unit


* Advance, rear, or flank guards during movement of an infantry squad, platoon, or company


* Stay-behind operations





A Police marksmen/sharpshooter is a different skill set, with very few overlapping similarities.  A true sniper is already accustomed to mission durations that would crush the mental and emotional capacity of most LE professionals, being away from developed world infrastructure, unless said LEO's have a military infantry or sniping background.





A true sniper has been selected from an infantry battalion usually after years of service in said unit, learning the various entry-level duty positions in a Rifle Platoon, with maturity being one of the most important attributes in the soldier.  Most school-trained and combat-experienced snipers have spent a lot of time in their Battalion's Scout or Reconnaissance Platoon, so they already perform all the skills that a sniper does, minus the precision rifle intermediate and long-range shooting with an assigned rifle for those purposes.





The best thing that these LE courses could do would be to get out of the prone and run at least 75% of the course shooting from alternate positions in terrain appropriate for their jurisdiction.  They also need to ditch the bolt guns and adopt precision semi-auto carbines that will allow dealing with contingencies like the Russians encountered at Beslan, or Kenya just did in Nairobi.  Ending the course with as much scenario-based training under stress with realistic equipment should be the focus, not laying in the prone in t-shirts and boonie hats with a Rem 700, even if stress-fire is incorporated into the prone drills.





LE managers need to ditch the "sniper" terminology and correctly identify their sharpshooters or marksmen, while adopting an appropriate training approach that reflects the reality of their jurisdictional area, and leave the invalidated habits of the 1980's and 90's in the past.  If you want to be a real sniper, join the military, have the ability to pass the psychological tests, eyesight, physical fitness, and Commander's recommendation, after no less than 2 years in the infantry, then volunteer for the Scout Platoon selection or get a slot if your Company can get one.





If you want to provide a critical LE solution to dicey stand-offs where collateral damage is likely in the civilian world, seek competent training solutions that don't follow the norms we have seen for the past 30 years.


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Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:


I alway thought it would be stupid easy to be a PD sniper. You mostly watch and observe and if you have to shoot, at max a shot at 100 yards.





And needing a $3,500 rifle to make those shots seem stupid to me. Im sure some cost more and some cost less, but you dont need much rifle to shoot sub moa at 100 yards.





If I am wrong please school me. seems money would be better spent training like in op. 90% is unacceptable hit percentage at 100 yards. Come one, they call themselve snipers. They should be past this learning curve if they are already a PD sniper

big difference between military and police....generally you are aiming for a 1moa area at 100 yards, and your subject will be generally 75 yards in and less


.mil is aiming over very long distances, all in all however the moa is still the same....





its not that easy....





been to multiple schools






Police can't be snipers by definition, since real snipers support military units by providing:





* Advance point target reconnaissance and surveillance before a deliberate attack or raid


* Precision fire capabilities with a high probability of 1st-round hit at extended distances on select enemy personnel and materiel targets


* Forward Observer capabilities for directing organic indirect and Close Air Support assets to destroy enemy personnel, vehicles, and positions


* Precision fire support for the support-by-fire position for a dismounted or mounted infantry unit


* Advance, rear, or flank guards during movement of an infantry squad, platoon, or company


* Stay-behind operations





A Police marksmen/sharpshooter is a different skill set, with very few overlapping similarities.  A true sniper is already accustomed to mission durations that would crush the mental and emotional capacity of most LE professionals, being away from developed world infrastructure, unless said LEO's have a military infantry or sniping background.





A true sniper has been selected from an infantry battalion usually after years of service in said unit, learning the various entry-level duty positions in a Rifle Platoon, with maturity being one of the most important attributes in the soldier.  Most school-trained and combat-experienced snipers have spent a lot of time in their Battalion's Scout or Reconnaissance Platoon, so they already perform all the skills that a sniper does, minus the precision rifle intermediate and long-range shooting with an assigned rifle for those purposes.





The best thing that these LE courses could do would be to get out of the prone and run at least 75% of the course shooting from alternate positions in terrain appropriate for their jurisdiction.  They also need to ditch the bolt guns and adopt precision semi-auto carbines that will allow dealing with contingencies like the Russians encountered at Beslan, or Kenya just did in Nairobi.  Ending the course with as much scenario-based training under stress with realistic equipment should be the focus, not laying in the prone in t-shirts and boonie hats with a Rem 700, even if stress-fire is incorporated into the prone drills.





LE managers need to ditch the "sniper" terminology and correctly identify their sharpshooters or marksmen, while adopting an appropriate training approach that reflects the reality of their jurisdictional area, and leave the invalidated habits of the 1980's and 90's in the past.  If you want to be a real sniper, join the military, have the ability to pass the psychological tests, eyesight, physical fitness, and Commander's recommendation, after no less than 2 years in the infantry, then volunteer for the Scout Platoon selection or get a slot if your Company can get one.





If you want to provide a critical LE solution to dicey stand-offs where collateral damage is likely in the civilian world, seek competent training solutions that don't follow the norms we have seen for the past 30 years.





I understand where you are coming from, but you are getting caught up in terminology.





We don't have the need to be in the field for weeks.





More like hours.





Our shots are almost always inside of 100 yards, the closer the better.





99.9% of the time, we will be in prone, because we usually have that flexibility.





Call it whatever you want. We aren't out there trying to be some super sniper badass like our .mil guys are. (intended as a compliment, those guys are awesome)





We are just getting simple training for the situation where we need to take that one precision shot.





Everything else is just puff.
 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:09:43 PM EDT
[#20]
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Good times.


I see at least two very sexy arfcops in that photo.

Me, homo, and who else?


 


I knew I saw some sexy on the firing line.

 

Get a room.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:11:04 PM EDT
[#21]


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Quoted:

I understand where you are coming from, but you are getting caught up in terminology.

We don't have the need to be in the field for weeks.

More like hours.

Our shots are almost always inside of 100 yards, the closer the better.

99.9% of the time, we will be in prone, because we usually have that flexibility.

Call it whatever you want. We aren't out there trying to be some super sniper badass like our .mil guys are.

We are just getting simple training for the situation where we need to take that one precision shot.

Everything else is just puff.



 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I alway thought it would be stupid easy to be a PD sniper. You mostly watch and observe and if you have to shoot, at max a shot at 100 yards.

And needing a $3,500 rifle to make those shots seem stupid to me. Im sure some cost more and some cost less, but you dont need much rifle to shoot sub moa at 100 yards.

If I am wrong please school me. seems money would be better spent training like in op. 90% is unacceptable hit percentage at 100 yards. Come one, they call themselve snipers. They should be past this learning curve if they are already a PD sniper



big difference between military and police....generally you are aiming for a 1moa area at 100 yards, and your subject will be generally 75 yards in and less
.mil is aiming over very long distances, all in all however the moa is still the same....

its not that easy....

been to multiple schools


Police can't be snipers by definition, since real snipers support military units by providing:

* Advance point target reconnaissance and surveillance before a deliberate attack or raid
* Precision fire capabilities with a high probability of 1st-round hit at extended distances on select enemy personnel and materiel targets
* Forward Observer capabilities for directing organic indirect and Close Air Support assets to destroy enemy personnel, vehicles, and positions
* Precision fire support for the support-by-fire position for a dismounted or mounted infantry unit
* Advance, rear, or flank guards during movement of an infantry squad, platoon, or company
* Stay-behind operations

A Police marksmen/sharpshooter is a different skill set, with very few overlapping similarities.  A true sniper is already accustomed to mission durations that would crush the mental and emotional capacity of most LE professionals, being away from developed world infrastructure, unless said LEO's have a military infantry or sniping background.

A true sniper has been selected from an infantry battalion usually after years of service in said unit, learning the various entry-level duty positions in a Rifle Platoon, with maturity being one of the most important attributes in the soldier.  Most school-trained and combat-experienced snipers have spent a lot of time in their Battalion's Scout or Reconnaissance Platoon, so they already perform all the skills that a sniper does, minus the precision rifle intermediate and long-range shooting with an assigned rifle for those purposes.

The best thing that these LE courses could do would be to get out of the prone and run at least 75% of the course shooting from alternate positions in terrain appropriate for their jurisdiction.  They also need to ditch the bolt guns and adopt precision semi-auto carbines that will allow dealing with contingencies like the Russians encountered at Beslan, or Kenya just did in Nairobi.  Ending the course with as much scenario-based training under stress with realistic equipment should be the focus, not laying in the prone in t-shirts and boonie hats with a Rem 700, even if stress-fire is incorporated into the prone drills.

LE managers need to ditch the "sniper" terminology and correctly identify their sharpshooters or marksmen, while adopting an appropriate training approach that reflects the reality of their jurisdictional area, and leave the invalidated habits of the 1980's and 90's in the past.  If you want to be a real sniper, join the military, have the ability to pass the psychological tests, eyesight, physical fitness, and Commander's recommendation, after no less than 2 years in the infantry, then volunteer for the Scout Platoon selection or get a slot if your Company can get one.

If you want to provide a critical LE solution to dicey stand-offs where collateral damage is likely in the civilian world, seek competent training solutions that don't follow the norms we have seen for the past 30 years.

I understand where you are coming from, but you are getting caught up in terminology.

We don't have the need to be in the field for weeks.

More like hours.

Our shots are almost always inside of 100 yards, the closer the better.

99.9% of the time, we will be in prone, because we usually have that flexibility.

Call it whatever you want. We aren't out there trying to be some super sniper badass like our .mil guys are.

We are just getting simple training for the situation where we need to take that one precision shot.

Everything else is just puff.



 



OH SNAP
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:18:56 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
holy balls do those guys have poor form.....
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#3 doesnt look bad if your coming from a rifles only/sh training... straight behind the rifle, heels down, chest low,, rifle to head (not head to rifle)... not close enough or the right angle to judge anything else...

Toes dug in is something I see with a few LE precision riflemen that compete. Some are very good like that. I rarely see well preforming people that are not straight back behind rifle type positions. Leg up is gone from precision rifle even from guys I know shoot high level high power comps as well as steel precision rifle matches.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:19:13 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:
Not picking on the  officers but when I went to SWAT school I would have have to drop down and give them 20 pushups for NOT keeping my feet flat. Is that NOT taught anymore?
View Quote


The days of "only one right way" are finally dying out as the old shitty instructor guard retire off.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:24:23 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
I understand where you are coming from, but you are getting caught up in terminology.

We don't have the need to be in the field for weeks.

More like hours.

Our shots are almost always inside of 100 yards, the closer the better.

99.9% of the time, we will be in prone, because we usually have that flexibility.

Call it whatever you want. We aren't out there trying to be some super sniper badass like our .mil guys are. (intended as a compliment, those guys are awesome)

We are just getting simple training for the situation where we need to take that one precision shot.

Everything else is just puff.  
View Quote


I'm somewhat familiar with what LE marksmen have to do, and recognize that call-out duration usually is measured in hours, just as average shooting distances are within 100yds.  Urban terrain sometimes allows prone, but not always.  The only real role that prone plays in precision rifle training for me is to validate the weapon/optic/ammunition system at the distances we shoot them at, to prove to ourselves that the system is capable of doing X out to Y distance, after confirming rifle checklist and zeroes.

Once that is done, it makes a lot of sense to train in different positions for the duration of a course:  Kneeling, seated, squatting, modified prone in terrain (rooftops, ditches, etc.)  Once a shooter is confident in making the accuracy requirements from all the positions, then throw in compressed time limits, movement, scenario-based problems.

As you conduct more scenario-based drills that address the geography and urbanization especially, you soon see that a bolt gun starts to be a liability in many ways.  For the scripted domestic violence death by cop call-out, sure the bolt gun might get you by with one perpetrator, but as we see more incidents of multiple shooters in mass casualty potential structures, a lightweight, capable carbine makes more sense.  That prone position disappears in a mall, a parking garage, a theater, a school, unless you're content to sit outside in overwatch as people are slain.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:29:21 PM EDT
[#25]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm somewhat familiar with what LE marksmen have to do, and recognize that call-out duration usually is measured in hours, just as average shooting distances are within 100yds.  Urban terrain sometimes allows prone, but not always.  The only real role that prone plays in precision rifle training for me is to validate the weapon/optic/ammunition system at the distances we shoot them at, to prove to ourselves that the system is capable of doing X out to Y distance, after confirming rifle checklist and zeroes.





Once that is done, it makes a lot of sense to train in different positions for the duration of a course:  Kneeling, seated, squatting, modified prone in terrain (rooftops, ditches, etc.)  Once a shooter is confident in making the accuracy requirements from all the positions, then throw in compressed time limits, movement, scenario-based problems.





As you conduct more scenario-based drills that address the geography and urbanization especially, you soon see that a bolt gun starts to be a liability in many ways.  For the scripted domestic violence death by cop call-out, sure the bolt gun might get you by with one perpetrator, but as we see more incidents of multiple shooters in mass casualty potential structures, a lightweight, capable carbine makes more sense.  That prone position disappears in a mall, a parking garage, a theater, a school, unless you're content to sit outside in overwatch as people are slain.


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Quoted:





Quoted:


I understand where you are coming from, but you are getting caught up in terminology.





We don't have the need to be in the field for weeks.





More like hours.





Our shots are almost always inside of 100 yards, the closer the better.





99.9% of the time, we will be in prone, because we usually have that flexibility.





Call it whatever you want. We aren't out there trying to be some super sniper badass like our .mil guys are. (intended as a compliment, those guys are awesome)





We are just getting simple training for the situation where we need to take that one precision shot.





Everything else is just puff.  






I'm somewhat familiar with what LE marksmen have to do, and recognize that call-out duration usually is measured in hours, just as average shooting distances are within 100yds.  Urban terrain sometimes allows prone, but not always.  The only real role that prone plays in precision rifle training for me is to validate the weapon/optic/ammunition system at the distances we shoot them at, to prove to ourselves that the system is capable of doing X out to Y distance, after confirming rifle checklist and zeroes.





Once that is done, it makes a lot of sense to train in different positions for the duration of a course:  Kneeling, seated, squatting, modified prone in terrain (rooftops, ditches, etc.)  Once a shooter is confident in making the accuracy requirements from all the positions, then throw in compressed time limits, movement, scenario-based problems.





As you conduct more scenario-based drills that address the geography and urbanization especially, you soon see that a bolt gun starts to be a liability in many ways.  For the scripted domestic violence death by cop call-out, sure the bolt gun might get you by with one perpetrator, but as we see more incidents of multiple shooters in mass casualty potential structures, a lightweight, capable carbine makes more sense.  That prone position disappears in a mall, a parking garage, a theater, a school, unless you're content to sit outside in overwatch as people are slain.





That is why we also have a carbine, and a pistol.





Look, I'm not saying you are wrong.





This was a basic class. It was 40 hours, and indented to set the fundamentals in place.





I don't know what day that picture was taken, for all I know it was the first day.





I do know that nearly all of us were shooting .5-.75 minute groups before class let out.





None of us are going to be super elite with 40 hours of training.





I know I can make my cold bore shot count, and that is what the class was intended for. We also covered other positions.





You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what was covered in the course by just one article and one photo.
 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:30:36 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


The days of "only one right way" are finally dying out as the old shitty instructor guard retire off.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Not picking on the  officers but when I went to SWAT school I would have have to drop down and give them 20 pushups for NOT keeping my feet flat. Is that NOT taught anymore?


The days of "only one right way" are finally dying out as the old shitty instructor guard retire off.


And halle-frakking-lujah for that.

@LRRP: Not to be presumptuous, but should I assume that you're advocating for more of a Mk.12-style rifle for police sharpshooters? Something with a 16"-18" barrel, AR-style, in 5.56 or maybe 7.62 NATO?
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:30:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I'm somewhat familiar with what LE marksmen have to do, and recognize that call-out duration usually is measured in hours, just as average shooting distances are within 100yds.  Urban terrain sometimes allows prone, but not always.  The only real role that prone plays in precision rifle training for me is to validate the weapon/optic/ammunition system at the distances we shoot them at, to prove to ourselves that the system is capable of doing X out to Y distance, after confirming rifle checklist and zeroes.

Once that is done, it makes a lot of sense to train in different positions for the duration of a course:  Kneeling, seated, squatting, modified prone in terrain (rooftops, ditches, etc.)  Once a shooter is confident in making the accuracy requirements from all the positions, then throw in compressed time limits, movement, scenario-based problems.

As you conduct more scenario-based drills that address the geography and urbanization especially, you soon see that a bolt gun starts to be a liability in many ways.  For the scripted domestic violence death by cop call-out, sure the bolt gun might get you by with one perpetrator, but as we see more incidents of multiple shooters in mass casualty potential structures, a lightweight, capable carbine makes more sense.  That prone position disappears in a mall, a parking garage, a theater, a school, unless you're content to sit outside in overwatch as people are slain.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I understand where you are coming from, but you are getting caught up in terminology.

We don't have the need to be in the field for weeks.

More like hours.

Our shots are almost always inside of 100 yards, the closer the better.

99.9% of the time, we will be in prone, because we usually have that flexibility.

Call it whatever you want. We aren't out there trying to be some super sniper badass like our .mil guys are. (intended as a compliment, those guys are awesome)

We are just getting simple training for the situation where we need to take that one precision shot.

Everything else is just puff.  


I'm somewhat familiar with what LE marksmen have to do, and recognize that call-out duration usually is measured in hours, just as average shooting distances are within 100yds.  Urban terrain sometimes allows prone, but not always.  The only real role that prone plays in precision rifle training for me is to validate the weapon/optic/ammunition system at the distances we shoot them at, to prove to ourselves that the system is capable of doing X out to Y distance, after confirming rifle checklist and zeroes.

Once that is done, it makes a lot of sense to train in different positions for the duration of a course:  Kneeling, seated, squatting, modified prone in terrain (rooftops, ditches, etc.)  Once a shooter is confident in making the accuracy requirements from all the positions, then throw in compressed time limits, movement, scenario-based problems.

As you conduct more scenario-based drills that address the geography and urbanization especially, you soon see that a bolt gun starts to be a liability in many ways.  For the scripted domestic violence death by cop call-out, sure the bolt gun might get you by with one perpetrator, but as we see more incidents of multiple shooters in mass casualty potential structures, a lightweight, capable carbine makes more sense.  That prone position disappears in a mall, a parking garage, a theater, a school, unless you're content to sit outside in overwatch as people are slain.


I know several guys who use a pocket precision AR for that very thing.

Prone is a position in which the basics of precision fires are taught. Kneeling, sitting and standing were taught at my school and emphasized.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:38:14 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:


I'm somewhat familiar with what LE marksmen have to do, and recognize that call-out duration usually is measured in hours, just as average shooting distances are within 100yds.  Urban terrain sometimes allows prone, but not always.  The only real role that prone plays in precision rifle training for me is to validate the weapon/optic/ammunition system at the distances we shoot them at, to prove to ourselves that the system is capable of doing X out to Y distance, after confirming rifle checklist and zeroes.

Once that is done, it makes a lot of sense to train in different positions for the duration of a course:  Kneeling, seated, squatting, modified prone in terrain (rooftops, ditches, etc.)  Once a shooter is confident in making the accuracy requirements from all the positions, then throw in compressed time limits, movement, scenario-based problems.

As you conduct more scenario-based drills that address the geography and urbanization especially, you soon see that a bolt gun starts to be a liability in many ways.  For the scripted domestic violence death by cop call-out, sure the bolt gun might get you by with one perpetrator, but as we see more incidents of multiple shooters in mass casualty potential structures, a lightweight, capable carbine makes more sense.  That prone position disappears in a mall, a parking garage, a theater, a school, unless you're content to sit outside in overwatch as people are slain.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I understand where you are coming from, but you are getting caught up in terminology.

We don't have the need to be in the field for weeks.

More like hours.

Our shots are almost always inside of 100 yards, the closer the better.

99.9% of the time, we will be in prone, because we usually have that flexibility.

Call it whatever you want. We aren't out there trying to be some super sniper badass like our .mil guys are. (intended as a compliment, those guys are awesome)

We are just getting simple training for the situation where we need to take that one precision shot.

Everything else is just puff.  


I'm somewhat familiar with what LE marksmen have to do, and recognize that call-out duration usually is measured in hours, just as average shooting distances are within 100yds.  Urban terrain sometimes allows prone, but not always.  The only real role that prone plays in precision rifle training for me is to validate the weapon/optic/ammunition system at the distances we shoot them at, to prove to ourselves that the system is capable of doing X out to Y distance, after confirming rifle checklist and zeroes.

Once that is done, it makes a lot of sense to train in different positions for the duration of a course:  Kneeling, seated, squatting, modified prone in terrain (rooftops, ditches, etc.)  Once a shooter is confident in making the accuracy requirements from all the positions, then throw in compressed time limits, movement, scenario-based problems.

As you conduct more scenario-based drills that address the geography and urbanization especially, you soon see that a bolt gun starts to be a liability in many ways.  For the scripted domestic violence death by cop call-out, sure the bolt gun might get you by with one perpetrator, but as we see more incidents of multiple shooters in mass casualty potential structures, a lightweight, capable carbine makes more sense.  That prone position disappears in a mall, a parking garage, a theater, a school, unless you're content to sit outside in overwatch as people are slain.


I agree to a point. A LE sniper oops sharpshooter is used in barricaded/ hostage situations.
A bolt gun is fine.
A carbine is going to be in the mall, school, theatre etc. Police "sharpshooter" and a entry team are two totally different roles.
I have a bolt, yes a Rem 700 and I also have a 10.5" carbine along and a short barrel 870. They all have their place and preferred use.

Carbine for entry team assault stuff. On perimeter watch I'll still keep the carbine, or responding to your average open carrier I'll break out the carbine.
An over look position with a barricaded or hostage scenario, I'll pick the bolt gun, with the carbine close by.

The shotgun, well just because I can rack it and people give up, girls creme their panties and because Biden said so.

Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:38:43 PM EDT
[#29]
I was at the club one day shooting and a guy comes along. At that time in the morning the sun was directly facing us.
Turned out to be one of our state troopers who was the sniper of the post.
He'd come out on his own time to fire the 100 yard range and get in some practice.
He'd put his jacket over his head to cut down the sunlight.
No uniform or insignia, just out to take some shots he might have to take some day.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:40:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That is why we also have a carbine, and a pistol.

Look, I'm not saying you are wrong.

This was a basic class. It was 40 hours, and indented to set the fundamentals in place.

I don't know what day that picture was taken, for all I know it was the first day.

I do know that nearly all of us were shooting .5-.75 minute groups before class let out.

None of us are going to be super elite with 40 hours of training.

I know I can make my cold bore shot count, and that is what the class was intended for. We also covered other positions.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what was covered in the course by just one article and one photo.



 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I understand where you are coming from, but you are getting caught up in terminology.

We don't have the need to be in the field for weeks.

More like hours.

Our shots are almost always inside of 100 yards, the closer the better.

99.9% of the time, we will be in prone, because we usually have that flexibility.

Call it whatever you want. We aren't out there trying to be some super sniper badass like our .mil guys are. (intended as a compliment, those guys are awesome)

We are just getting simple training for the situation where we need to take that one precision shot.

Everything else is just puff.  


I'm somewhat familiar with what LE marksmen have to do, and recognize that call-out duration usually is measured in hours, just as average shooting distances are within 100yds.  Urban terrain sometimes allows prone, but not always.  The only real role that prone plays in precision rifle training for me is to validate the weapon/optic/ammunition system at the distances we shoot them at, to prove to ourselves that the system is capable of doing X out to Y distance, after confirming rifle checklist and zeroes.

Once that is done, it makes a lot of sense to train in different positions for the duration of a course:  Kneeling, seated, squatting, modified prone in terrain (rooftops, ditches, etc.)  Once a shooter is confident in making the accuracy requirements from all the positions, then throw in compressed time limits, movement, scenario-based problems.

As you conduct more scenario-based drills that address the geography and urbanization especially, you soon see that a bolt gun starts to be a liability in many ways.  For the scripted domestic violence death by cop call-out, sure the bolt gun might get you by with one perpetrator, but as we see more incidents of multiple shooters in mass casualty potential structures, a lightweight, capable carbine makes more sense.  That prone position disappears in a mall, a parking garage, a theater, a school, unless you're content to sit outside in overwatch as people are slain.

That is why we also have a carbine, and a pistol.

Look, I'm not saying you are wrong.

This was a basic class. It was 40 hours, and indented to set the fundamentals in place.

I don't know what day that picture was taken, for all I know it was the first day.

I do know that nearly all of us were shooting .5-.75 minute groups before class let out.

None of us are going to be super elite with 40 hours of training.

I know I can make my cold bore shot count, and that is what the class was intended for. We also covered other positions.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what was covered in the course by just one article and one photo.



 


I hear it taught that a Howa pencil barrel won't handle that amount of rounds.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:46:26 PM EDT
[#31]

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Quoted:
Great- training to kill people in their own homes.





and I don't know if they're as much "snipers" as they are just designated marksman. But everyone gets a trophy I suppose.
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"We are a small community, but there are six times we have had folks barricade themselves in their homes,” said Clanton Police Chief Brian Stilwell. "We have had our sniper ready to take the shot






Great- training to kill people in their own homes.





and I don't know if they're as much "snipers" as they are just designated marksman. But everyone gets a trophy I suppose.
ARFCOM should implement an ignorance badge like .mil, trainer, and NRA.

 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:49:10 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:


And halle-frakking-lujah for that.

@LRRP: Not to be presumptuous, but should I assume that you're advocating for more of a Mk.12-style rifle for police sharpshooters? Something with a 16"-18" barrel, AR-style, in 5.56 or maybe 7.62 NATO?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not picking on the  officers but when I went to SWAT school I would have have to drop down and give them 20 pushups for NOT keeping my feet flat. Is that NOT taught anymore?


The days of "only one right way" are finally dying out as the old shitty instructor guard retire off.


And halle-frakking-lujah for that.

@LRRP: Not to be presumptuous, but should I assume that you're advocating for more of a Mk.12-style rifle for police sharpshooters? Something with a 16"-18" barrel, AR-style, in 5.56 or maybe 7.62 NATO?


Precision semi-auto carbine with the ability to defeat common barriers in the area.  For LE distances, 16" is all that is needed.  Caliber is a different discussion, but 7.62 will get it done.

Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:50:47 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
this also is bad form...http://i.imgur.com/tKfFKm1.gif

but a great ass....
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Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:55:06 PM EDT
[#34]
I came in here expecting lots of whining along these lines:




And instead got this:

Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:58:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Look, I'm not saying you are wrong.

This was a basic class. It was 40 hours, and indented to set the fundamentals in place.

I don't know what day that picture was taken, for all I know it was the first day.

I do know that nearly all of us were shooting .5-.75 minute groups before class let out.

None of us are going to be super elite with 40 hours of training.

I know I can make my cold bore shot count, and that is what the class was intended for. We also covered other positions.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what was covered in the course by just one article and one photo.
 
View Quote


Accepted.  The only assumption I'm making from the photo and brief description is that the days of Rem 700's, T-shirts, and Boonies haven't died yet.  This class might have been so well-run that it's enviable.  Don't know, but I think there's a lot of room to re-vamp the way we look at designated marksmen training, and I want a well-trained LE professional like you do.

In the military, most of what we were doing as far as training goes has been invalidated by over a decade of continuous shooting warfare where light infantry has been the focus in several different environments.  The old training methods won't die, even as new TTP's prove themselves base off years of sniper feedback into the training courses.

An example: 75th Ranger Regiment will send guys to the National Guard Sniper Course that awards the B4 ASI over Fort Benning if they can't get the SOTIC/SF Sniper School.  Why?  Because Fort Benning's course sucks, and has sucked as long as I have tracked it.  

SF and SEALs have totally re-vamped their courses based on all the field data that has been collected, along with technological progress in exterior ballistics prediction.  What I'm suggesting is for a similar series of trends to take place in the LE community where necessary.  If you have limited training time, why not run all the drills with deployment gear on for starters?
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 5:59:59 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
I'd love to take a class on precision shooting.   Some day......
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Start with Appleseed then move on to a high dollar long range class. Get the basics first.

ETA - If you're current level is an enthusiast shooter.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:08:57 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:
Those look like really bad prone positions to me.
Not a single bent leg, no open legged positions.
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Noticed that.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:13:55 PM EDT
[#38]

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Quoted:





I hear it taught that a Howa pencil barrel won't handle that amount of rounds.
View Quote
OMG, that fucking thing.....



Still trying to sell that fucker.



May just have to cut it as a loss.
 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:14:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Apparently a good prone position is not on the syllabus.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:15:57 PM EDT
[#40]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What I'm suggesting is for a similar series of trends to take place in the LE community where necessary.  If you have limited training time, why not run all the drills with deployment gear on for starters?

View Quote
I'm all for that!!!



I love pain.



Seriously, if you write a course of fire, I'll run it and give you feedback.



 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:16:59 PM EDT
[#41]

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Quoted:


Apparently a good prone position is not on the syllabus.
View Quote


You guys need to understand that there are lots of acceptable prone positions, and also that picture was probably taken in the early parts of the class.



Then again, keep spouting your basement crawling bullshit.



 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:19:23 PM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:
Seems pretty easy. [div style=' ']"The benchmark test comes when the students are tasked with hitting a 2-by-4-inch target from 100 yards away 90 percent of the time they pull the trigger."
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That is it????  And people pay money for that??  Are they using .25 Raven handguns??
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:20:37 PM EDT
[#43]

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Quoted:
That is it????  And people pay money for that??  Are they using .25 Raven handguns??
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Quoted:



Quoted:

Seems pretty easy. [div style=' ']"The benchmark test comes when the students are tasked with hitting a 2-by-4-inch target from 100 yards away 90 percent of the time they pull the trigger."





That is it????  And people pay money for that??  Are they using .25 Raven handguns??


No that's not it.



We use the standard FBI sniper qualification course.



 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:25:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

You guys need to understand that there are lots of acceptable prone positions, and also that picture was probably taken in the early parts of the class.

Then again, keep spouting your basement crawling bullshit.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Apparently a good prone position is not on the syllabus.

You guys need to understand that there are lots of acceptable prone positions, and also that picture was probably taken in the early parts of the class.

Then again, keep spouting your basement crawling bullshit.
 



No doubt getting into whatever the most stable position is to make a shot is what counts. I just recall when being taught prone in precision classes keeping your legs wide and being lined up strait behind the rifle really helped with recoil and watching bullet stroke. Its just a picture who knows the context of what was happening the moment it was snapped. Im sure the people in that photo know far more about shooting then me.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:42:24 PM EDT
[#45]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No doubt getting into whatever the most stable position is to make a shot is what counts. I just recall when being taught prone in precision classes keeping your legs wide and being lined up strait behind the rifle really helped with recoil and watching bullet stroke. Its just a picture who knows the context of what was happening the moment it was snapped. Im sure the people in that photo know far more about shooting then me.
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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

Apparently a good prone position is not on the syllabus.


You guys need to understand that there are lots of acceptable prone positions, and also that picture was probably taken in the early parts of the class.



Then again, keep spouting your basement crawling bullshit.

 






No doubt getting into whatever the most stable position is to make a shot is what counts. I just recall when being taught prone in precision classes keeping your legs wide and being lined up strait behind the rifle really helped with recoil and watching bullet stroke. Its just a picture who knows the context of what was happening the moment it was snapped. Im sure the people in that photo know far more about shooting then me.
He's probably the dumbass up on his toes in the picture so it looks like he's got his prone position worked out.



 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:43:41 PM EDT
[#46]


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Quoted:




I'm all for that!!!





I love pain.





Seriously, if you write a course of fire, I'll run it and give you feedback.


 
View Quote
Holy shit, you really are a gun store commando.





 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:46:09 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Accepted.  The only assumption I'm making from the photo and brief description is that the days of Rem 700's, T-shirts, and Boonies haven't died yet.  This class might have been so well-run that it's enviable.  Don't know, but I think there's a lot of room to re-vamp the way we look at designated marksmen training, and I want a well-trained LE professional like you do.

In the military, most of what we were doing as far as training goes has been invalidated by over a decade of continuous shooting warfare where light infantry has been the focus in several different environments.  The old training methods won't die, even as new TTP's prove themselves base off years of sniper feedback into the training courses.

An example: 75th Ranger Regiment will send guys to the National Guard Sniper Course that awards the B4 ASI over Fort Benning if they can't get the SOTIC/SF Sniper School.  Why?  Because Fort Benning's course sucks, and has sucked as long as I have tracked it.  

SF and SEALs have totally re-vamped their courses based on all the field data that has been collected, along with technological progress in exterior ballistics prediction.  What I'm suggesting is for a similar series of trends to take place in the LE community where necessary.  If you have limited training time, why not run all the drills with deployment gear on for starters?
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Look, I'm not saying you are wrong.

This was a basic class. It was 40 hours, and indented to set the fundamentals in place.

I don't know what day that picture was taken, for all I know it was the first day.

I do know that nearly all of us were shooting .5-.75 minute groups before class let out.

None of us are going to be super elite with 40 hours of training.

I know I can make my cold bore shot count, and that is what the class was intended for. We also covered other positions.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what was covered in the course by just one article and one photo.
 


Accepted.  The only assumption I'm making from the photo and brief description is that the days of Rem 700's, T-shirts, and Boonies haven't died yet.  This class might have been so well-run that it's enviable.  Don't know, but I think there's a lot of room to re-vamp the way we look at designated marksmen training, and I want a well-trained LE professional like you do.

In the military, most of what we were doing as far as training goes has been invalidated by over a decade of continuous shooting warfare where light infantry has been the focus in several different environments.  The old training methods won't die, even as new TTP's prove themselves base off years of sniper feedback into the training courses.

An example: 75th Ranger Regiment will send guys to the National Guard Sniper Course that awards the B4 ASI over Fort Benning if they can't get the SOTIC/SF Sniper School.  Why?  Because Fort Benning's course sucks, and has sucked as long as I have tracked it.  

SF and SEALs have totally re-vamped their courses based on all the field data that has been collected, along with technological progress in exterior ballistics prediction.  What I'm suggesting is for a similar series of trends to take place in the LE community where necessary.  If you have limited training time, why not run all the drills with deployment gear on for starters?



I think the issue here is this class was not for Seals or SF.
It is a LE beginner sniper 40hr class. In fact it is the FBI sniper 80 hr course crammed in 40 hrs. Same qualification but half the time training.
Yes, we have plates available but no need to be overly uncomfortable while taking a shot.
We are not in a war zone and trekking in miles in a hostile environment to our position.
The deployment will be pretty short and relief will be available when needed and as often as the scene permits. Water, sun shade, squeeze bags and short and tall bipods, most areas you pretty have everything you need a available to get in position. A ghillie suit if in a wooded area etc etc. A mat for hot roof etc.
I do like the idea of a semi precision rifle, but the main problem there is the price and a factory action Rem 700P with a good stock and scope are pretty cheap and extremely accurate.
223/5.56 is not a good round for barriers. 7.62 is cheap plentiful. Are the better rounds? Yes but at a huge price leap over 7.62.

I would love to have the 1/8 the training a Seal/SF Sniper has. It's not practical  for a LE sniper, no dept will pay for it or heck even give officers the time off. That's why this course is a 80 hr course crammed in a 40 hr training block.

As bcauz3y stated there is no telling what was going on at the time of the photo.
Heck guy 2 bolt is to the rear and his hand isnt in position. Guy 3 is looking to his left.
Further down some guys heads look to be off the stocks.
It's a photo guys.
I took this class. It is a basic course shoved in a wks time. A good amount time was spent on stress shot groups/trigger control.
Well worth the time.
Mr Boone is a top notch instructor. If I recall his longest shot is 1960 yrds.
He knows his stuff.

Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:50:33 PM EDT
[#48]


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Holy shit, you really are a gun store commando.


 
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I'm all for that!!!





I love pain.





Seriously, if you write a course of fire, I'll run it and give you feedback.


 
Holy shit, you really are a gun store commando.


 



Childish much?



I have nothing to prove. I'm not a badass, and I'm not going to sit here and claim to be.
 
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:56:20 PM EDT
[#49]
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Childish much?

I have nothing to prove. I'm not a badass, and I'm not going to sit here and claim to be.


 
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I'm all for that!!!

I love pain.

Seriously, if you write a course of fire, I'll run it and give you feedback.
 
Holy shit, you really are a gun store commando.
 

Childish much?

I have nothing to prove. I'm not a badass, and I'm not going to sit here and claim to be.


 


Do you even Art of the Precision Rifle DVD bro?
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 6:58:18 PM EDT
[#50]


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thread winner!!
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