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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:12:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice to see a 2A giant like Trijicon go after a smaller company like Holosun. Not. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:13:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IP theft ? Competition Shroud around a red dot that is square is a stretch for IP theft. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:13:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_01_jpg-1534230.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_02_jpg-1534231.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_03_jpg-1534232.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_04_jpg-1534233.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_05_jpg-1534234.JPG |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:13:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buy Chinese shit then. I’ll keep buying Trijicon and Aimpoint. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Trijicon is too expensive, probably for a few reasons, for many. Many people don't want to pay that kind of money so they go for an alternative source. Perhaps Trijicon could try to manufacture some optics for the lower budget minded people? Buy Chinese shit then. I’ll keep buying Trijicon and Aimpoint. Well that's just it. They will buy the Chinese stuff and to the point where Trijicon feels it one way or another. This is the market of today and Trijicon is behind it seems. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:13:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually it is part and parcel of Asian culture in general. No fucks are given for IP on the continent, it's not just China . Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fuck the Chicoms, if they are stealing patented things they are thieves and need to be treated as such Actually it is part and parcel of Asian culture in general. No fucks are given for IP on the continent, it's not just China . Cheating, or doing whatever it takes to get ahead in general, is a fairly common Chinese cultural thing. Even look at how many video game cheaters are from China, cheating is just considered part of the meta. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:14:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is very little resemblance between Trijicon and Holosun sights othe than footprint. Are you basing this on your examination of the applicable patents? |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:14:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or just buy the Fakog factory and start marketing them as legit Trijicon optics. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Trijicon is too expensive, probably for a few reasons, for many. Many people don't want to pay that kind of money so they go for an alternative source. Perhaps Trijicon could try to manufacture some optics for the lower budget minded people? Or just buy the Fakog factory and start marketing them as legit Trijicon optics. That is one way of doing it. Maybe upgrade a thing or two and call it good. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:14:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck the Chicoms, if they are stealing patented things they are thieves and need to be treated as such How dare you talk about the source of poverty to our poors like that 
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:14:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit what MRDS wouldn't violate such a broad claim? SHHH dont say that in here.... |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:15:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trijicon is too expensive, probably for a few reasons, for many. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:16:11 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well,so is a Ferrari So should ferrari sue anyone that makes a car with a front and rear bumper? |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:16:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Chinese knock offs, hopefully you get some covid with your site
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:16:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trijicon's complaint filed in federal court is very specific about the infringement. Don't blame Trijicon because the Bloomberg reporter didn't or can't summarize it. As best as I can summarize, Trijicon holds a patent on mini/reflex red dots constructed a certain way with certain features. Holosun copied Trijicon's patented design. You could certainly have a broader discussion about recent trends in patent law and the USPTO's willingness to issue patents, but I don't see how Trijicon can be faulted for correctly using U.S. intellectual property protections. I'm surprised at the number of people here on the "If the Chicoms can rip it off and make it cheaper, screw the people that made it first and patented it if it saves me a few bucks" bandwagon. And we sit around wondering what happened to U.S. manufacturing. Apparently, the American people themselves sold it to the low bidder. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: IMO it's telling that they didn't elaborate on what was the patent infringement. Sour grapes, because no one wants to pay twice as much for less features. Trijicon's complaint filed in federal court is very specific about the infringement. Don't blame Trijicon because the Bloomberg reporter didn't or can't summarize it. As best as I can summarize, Trijicon holds a patent on mini/reflex red dots constructed a certain way with certain features. Holosun copied Trijicon's patented design. You could certainly have a broader discussion about recent trends in patent law and the USPTO's willingness to issue patents, but I don't see how Trijicon can be faulted for correctly using U.S. intellectual property protections. I'm surprised at the number of people here on the "If the Chicoms can rip it off and make it cheaper, screw the people that made it first and patented it if it saves me a few bucks" bandwagon. And we sit around wondering what happened to U.S. manufacturing. Apparently, the American people themselves sold it to the low bidder. I don't support the theft at all. However, there is a legit discussion of lack of innovation, price point, and market going on as well. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:16:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit what MRDS wouldn't violate such a broad claim? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_01_jpg-1534230.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_02_jpg-1534231.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_03_jpg-1534232.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_04_jpg-1534233.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_05_jpg-1534234.JPG I think that's the $64,000 question. The IP underlying the patent Trijicon is suing under dates back to 2008. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:17:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, the Chinese worked out the technology all on their own and Trijicon is just mad they're making it cheaper, not like they're known for stealing tech or anything. Back in about 2005 I did an electrical job at a Caterpillar plant. I thought it was interesting that there was a great big John Deere tractor on the floor being disassembled by a couple of techs. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:17:24 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is Trijicon regretting having some of their products manufactured in China now? Who didn't see this coming? And there it is. They slept with dogs and now are wondering why they have fleas. 
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:17:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Fuck China. Good for Trijicon.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:17:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trijicon is exercising their rights as an American company? GD: fuck them. Also the GD: Buy American! We need more lawsuits against Chinese companies for theft of intellectual capital, it can't all be up to the Federal Government. Get some freakin' skin in the game. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:17:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Chinese communists are not our "friends." I used to like the Trijicon ACOG series of scopes, but, Elcan scopes are better. I sold all of my ACOGs and bought several Elcan Specter DR scopes. I'd never waste a dime of my money on Chinese communist knock off junk like Holosun sights and Olight lights. Like the Iranians, the Chinese communists want us dead and to declare themselves the Lords of the Earth and people that buy their products are funding that goal, one $ at a time. I'm happy that Trijicon is suing the knockoff, parasites. Good luck to them.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:18:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SHHH dont say that in here.... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Holy shit what MRDS wouldn't violate such a broad claim? SHHH dont say that in here.... |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:18:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't necessarily say I like Holosun (I am an eotech fan) but competition is good for the market. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:19:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trijicon is exercising their rights as an American company? GD: fuck them. Also the GD: Buy American! This. Suddenly when the poors lose their commie sights, it's "Fuck this American company, we want to give our money to the Chicoms!" |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:20:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Fuck anything made in china, half the problems we have now is because we allowed china to take control of manufacturing. So I stand with Trijicon.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:20:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually it is part and parcel of Asian culture in general. No fucks are given for IP on the continent, it's not just China . Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fuck the Chicoms, if they are stealing patented things they are thieves and need to be treated as such Actually it is part and parcel of Asian culture in general. No fucks are given for IP on the continent, it's not just China . I remember going to a big mall in Singapore that was just shop after shop selling bootleg DVDs and computer programs and games. A whole fucking mall for it. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:20:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well,so is a Ferrari Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Trijicon is too expensive, probably for a few reasons, for many. Ok? |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:21:33 PM EDT
[#26]
For everyone complaining about trijicon prices...
Trijicon would charge less if they could... but if you have an item you sell to dcma/gov for one price (ie: M2/M4/T2 are overpriced as hell because Uncle Sam doesn’t care about money) you can’t turn around and sell that same item for significantly cheaper to the public. Trijicon would have to develop a specific lineup of budget optics to sell to civs. Of course as soon as that happened, when gov FWA auditors see an almost identical looking civilian market optic at 1/5th the price and BETTER performance as the contracts’ optics from their same vendor, they could use that grounds for a justification review or contract rebid effort. Major headaches all around, basically. Trijicon’s hands are kind of tied if they don’t want to risk the government contracts they have been doing at the same prices they’ve been doing them at. Trijicon is who they are because of gov sales... not public sales. Best not to bite the hand that feeds. I can understand their pricing choices. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:21:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And there it is. They slept with dogs and now are wondering why they have fleas. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is Trijicon regretting having some of their products manufactured in China now? Who didn't see this coming? And there it is. They slept with dogs and now are wondering why they have fleas. Better that they wake up and get out of the dog pound and back to their country, then continue to do business with those that constantly lie, cheat, and steal at every chance. Not just bad business, but, they want us dead and want to be the super power that rules the Earth. We are in their way of achieving that goal. Now, maybe other traitorous US companies will wake up and do the same. 
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:22:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do expect? If you wanted to start manufacturing a cheap red dot here in the US, you would get ran out by the top dogs. EoT,AP and triji. Not to mention we can make anything cheap here. Thanks unions. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:22:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Why wait 7 years?
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:22:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Back in about 2005 I did an electrical job at a Caterpillar plant. I thought it was interesting that there was a great big John Deere tractor on the floor being disassembled by a couple of techs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah, the Chinese worked out the technology all on their own and Trijicon is just mad they're making it cheaper, not like they're known for stealing tech or anything. Back in about 2005 I did an electrical job at a Caterpillar plant. I thought it was interesting that there was a great big John Deere tractor on the floor being disassembled by a couple of techs. I work at a job shop. We make parts for Deere, CNH, CAT, etc. Often parts that do the same thing on one or the other OEMs equipment. Track frames for bulldozers were a big part of our backlog at one point. We'd been making CNH track frames for many many years, there were no design changes. Then they made a relatively minor design change and we made those. Then shortly after, started making Deere track frames which were significantly different in design. Next thing we know, CNH was asking us to quote building another new design track frame that looked identical to the Deere design. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:23:27 PM EDT
[#31]
...
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:24:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Opposite for me. I've got 2 508T V2s on order, but would gladly pay more for a Trijicon if they made anything with comparable features. I would happily pay for an RMR if they made the window larger than a peep hole and used glass that does not look like they sourced it from the bottom of a coke bottle. They don't so I buy the only other viable option for my application. I thought the SRO would be the perfect solution until Trijicon basically said "Don't expect it not to break if you use it hard." |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:24:51 PM EDT
[#33]
I have a Trijicon RMR and it's cool, but I have three Holosuns and I like them at a huge cost savings. My 32MOA outer dot and 2MOA center dot does not have any of the Trijicon features, so I'm hoping this is just a law suit waiting to be tossed.
I want green dot Holosuns. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:24:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Theft isn't competition. The court will establish whether it is one or the other. Theft is a stretch. If that document is accurate, that is really stretching. Plus, who gives a fuck? They have brand loyalty, a good reputation in their field (arguably the best) and the best military contract of any other brand. It just seems like they are trying to rub out competition for the RMR. Yes, fuck China, so yes I hope they win, but it may deter from USA made competition seeing a petty lawsuit over a shroud. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:25:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice to see a 2A giant like Trijicon go after a smaller company like Holosun. Not. I don't think people who can afford trigi's will go for holosun. EDIT: or trijicon make some cheaper shit if you want that market. You'd be wrong. I have a buddy that lives quite comfortably and gave me shit for "buying a brand" when I bought an RMR over a Holosun whatever. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:25:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems doubtful Holosun has used Trijicon "proprietary" technology. And I don't think you can patent a "pistol mounted sight" as a protected technology. Doubtful???? You are basing that assessment on not having read the complaint or the patents in question. You can certainly patent 'features' of a pistol mounted sight. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:25:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would happily pay for an RMR if they made the window larger than a peep hole and used glass that does not look like they sourced it from the bottom of a coke bottle. They don't so I buy the only other viable option for my application. I thought the SRO would be the perfect solution until Trijicon basically said "Don't expect it not to break if you use it hard." Not perfect but an option http://jagerwerks.com/pre-order-b-r-o-s-4-6-weeks/ |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:25:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is Trijicon regretting having some of their products manufactured in China now? Who didn't see this coming? What is Trijicon outsourcing to China? |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:25:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember going to a big mall in Singapore that was just shop after shop selling bootleg DVDs and computer programs and games. A whole fucking mall for it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fuck the Chicoms, if they are stealing patented things they are thieves and need to be treated as such Actually it is part and parcel of Asian culture in general. No fucks are given for IP on the continent, it's not just China . I remember going to a big mall in Singapore that was just shop after shop selling bootleg DVDs and computer programs and games. A whole fucking mall for it. Many people believe western protection of intellectual property has been a cornerstone of modern technological development. Much of the world, including most of Asia, does not believe in the protection of intellectual property. In other words, "if you can make it, you can sell it." I know someone who runs a full-on Disney-themed character restaurant in BFE China with no licensing. Nobody cares. It's pretty clear, to me anyway, that western-type IP protection is losing. People will buy whatever is cheapest that meets their immediate needs. That might be better. It might be worse. Either way, it looks to me to be the direction we're going in. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:25:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trijicon would charge less if they could... but if you have an item you sell to dcma/gov for one price (ie: M2/M4/T2 are overpriced as hell because Uncle Sam doesn’t care about money) you can’t turn around and sell that same item for significantly cheaper to the public. Trijicon would have to develop a specific lineup of budget optics to sell to civs. Of course as soon as that happened, when gov FWA auditors see an almost identical looking civilian market optic at 1/5th the price and BETTER performance as the contracts optic from their same vendor, they use that grounds for a justification review or contract rebid effort. Major headaches all around, basically. Trijicons hands are kind of tied if they want to keep the government contracts they have been doing at the same prices they’ve been doing them at. Trijicon is who they are because of gov sales... not public sales. Best not to bite the hand that feeds. I can understand their choices. Why not just downgrade some of the components and make commercial versions for a lesser price? |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:26:15 PM EDT
[#41]
Haven't read the patent but from the posted screenshots of the claims chart accompanying the suit, the claims look very broad. Have to remember this patent goes back many years and what is obvious today or even over the past few years, might have been novel back when filed. Then again, the standard for an obviousness rejection has changed since the patent was filed and if Holosun filed for a re-examination, they might get the patent invalidated. Probably the best course of action. No dog in this fight, just professional interest.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:27:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Suddenly when the poors lose their commie sights, it's "Fuck this American company, we want to give our money to the Chicoms!" i'll second that motion. this place is schizophrenic at best. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:27:47 PM EDT
[#43]
Why aren't they suing every other MRDS manufacturer???
Is because Holosun is the only one hurting them in sales??? |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:27:58 PM EDT
[#44]
I'm on team Trijicon. One VCOG, 3 MRO's, 2 RMR's and an SRO. Lots of Trijicon pistol sights. Holosun makes decent stuff too for the price, but I don't doubt China copied features and designs from Trijicon. I hope Trijicon burns them to the ground.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:28:39 PM EDT
[#45]
China crap is China crap. Property theft is property theft.
Doing what I can to reform my China addiction and rid them from my life. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:29:19 PM EDT
[#46]
With the investigation process taking 15-18 months, and a court case between 2-5 years, I imagine that Holosun can sell plenty of their sights while the case is winding it's way through the legal process.
Unless Trijicon can get a temporary injunction, perhaps that was what Holosun was thinking in the first place.....ie sell enough of the disputed sights to make their profit, then quit once an injunction is put in place. Then Holosun can think "Meh, OK, we will quit selling red dots, we got our money from the Trijicon copies, let's copy someone else's stuff now." The really smart move would be as a previous post mentioned...if Trijicon really wants the lower priced portion of the red dot market, they should begin producing a cheaper version of their sights while the case winds it's way through the legal system. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:31:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So should ferrari sue anyone that makes a car with a front and rear bumper? If the front and rear bumper are patentable and hold such a patent then of course - that is the whole point of having a patent. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:31:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice to see a 2A giant like Trijicon go after a smaller company like Holosun. Not. I don't think people who can afford trigi's will go for holosun. EDIT: or trijicon make some cheaper shit if you want that market. People are buying holosun for 300 when MRO can be had for 350, etc |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:31:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m so torn. Fuck China, and I LOVE Trijicon as a company. I have more trijicon optics than other makes combined, and I’ve got a lot of optics. Still, Holosun is doing some really neat stuff in the pistol RDS market. I wish Trijicon were making a 507K competitor, for example, but they don’t. I REALLY want the batteryless RDS Holosun prototyped too. That’s some futuristic Star Trek shit. That, is either 507k, that plastisig thing, take my money triji. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 4:32:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just find it interesting that the company Trijicon chooses to make a claim against is the only company making a sight that is comparable to the RMR in durability. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Holy shit what MRDS wouldn't violate such a broad claim? SHHH dont say that in here.... I don't know what Trijicon's technical argument is, but that could be a clue. Vortex, Burris, Bushnell, and everyone else in the industry can't make a MRDS that's durable, but a random Chinese firm cracked the code? All by themselves? |
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