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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:06:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_01_jpg-1534230.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_02_jpg-1534231.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_03_jpg-1534232.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_04_jpg-1534233.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_05_jpg-1534234.JPG I'm all about kicking IP violators in the teeth, but if that is the crux of Trijicon's argument, they're on pretty weak ground. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:06:03 PM EDT
[#2]
This should be good.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:08:42 PM EDT
[#3]
If Holosun is copying Trijicon on the red dot, then so are half the market (including many big US brands) who make very similar sights.
But Holosun is actually innovating and making decent stuff at a good price, so they are a threat. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:08:43 PM EDT
[#4]
GD gonna GD
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:09:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm all about kicking IP violators in the teeth, but if that is the crux of Trijicon's argument, they're on pretty weak ground. Form follows function. Small space Operating conditions that need to be addressed Functionality/operability that you need to have to achieve the goal of your product This kind of seems like Coke suing Pepsi for having a poptop aluminum can. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:09:52 PM EDT
[#6]
I have an RMR and a few holosuns. I carry the holosuns because I like the taller window.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:10:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never thought I'd see this much support for China here.  |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:10:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then you’re not tier one. It’s your funeral pal Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Trijicon is too expensive, probably for a few reasons, for many. Many people don't want to pay that kind of money so they go for an alternative source. Perhaps Trijicon could try to manufacture some optics for the lower budget minded people? Then you’re not tier one. It’s your funeral pal Meh... I have four optics from Trijicon and zero from Holosun. I am gtg. 
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:10:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, the Chinese worked out the technology all on their own and Trijicon is just mad they're making it cheaper, not like they're known for stealing tech or anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is very little resemblance between Trijicon and Holosun sights othe than footprint. Also, Holosun is beating Trijicon on innovations and features. Trijicon sounds like sour grapes. Yeah, the Chinese worked out the technology all on their own and Trijicon is just mad they're making it cheaper, not like they're known for stealing tech or anything. This sounds like sour grapes to me. ETA: I don't own any Holosun products. I own mostly Aimpoint, but am looking at Holosun for future buys since they are making sights with better feature sets (even ignoring price). |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:11:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Back in about 2005 I did an electrical job at a Caterpillar plant. I thought it was interesting that there was a great big John Deere tractor on the floor being disassembled by a couple of techs. In the automotive business there is one company in the business of buying vehicles, completely tearing them down, and putting them "on the shelf" for other manufacturers to borrow and learn what the other guys are up to. It's sort of like a lending library for vehicles. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:12:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s not really what they said, but of course the RMR has the right design to be more rugged for drop testing on concrete. FWIW out of a sample size of 32, there’s been no issues with durability of any of the SROs we’ve had. They’re not treated gently or unused, I think in the year plus we got them every gun has been through enough rounds to need new recoil spring assemblies, striker springs, and barrels. Maybe not so much “need” but the maintenance schedule we use has those parts changed after 15k rounds. These things have been banged around in vehicles, hit doorways in shoot houses, been used with SIM ammo in ECQC training, and some have gone on deployments and come back fine. A good holster that covers the optic reduce a lot of the scenarios suggested as causing the optic to be damaged as well. Anecdotal I know, but it’s proven to me that I’m okay not worrying too much. Just like any other optic, it’s an asset that can fail in certain conditions. That’s what the suppressor sights are for. But given how much faster I’ve found presentation to be with the SRO compared to the RMR it’s something I’m comfortable with. It’s hardly as fragile as a condensed YouTube review might suggest. Not saying that video’s results aren’t true, just that they’re not an absolute condemnation either. Thanks for sharing your experience. I don't know what you do exactly but based on your posts in the past I have an idea. Its good hear that the SRO is holding up. It is my favorite form factor of all the current pistol dots. Several guys I know who test dots for different LE agencies were not too high on the SRO which was the main thing that stopped me from jumping in. Based on your info I'll probably give one a shot. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:13:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice to see a 2A giant like Trijicon go after a smaller company like Holosun. Not. I don't think people who can afford trigi's will go for holosun. EDIT: or trijicon make some cheaper shit if you want that market. Yes. Supply the market and I will buy one. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:13:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the automotive business there is one company in the business of buying vehicles, completely tearing them down, and putting them "on the shelf" for other manufacturers to borrow and learn what the other guys are up to. It's sort of like a lending library for vehicles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Back in about 2005 I did an electrical job at a Caterpillar plant. I thought it was interesting that there was a great big John Deere tractor on the floor being disassembled by a couple of techs. In the automotive business there is one company in the business of buying vehicles, completely tearing them down, and putting them "on the shelf" for other manufacturers to borrow and learn what the other guys are up to. It's sort of like a lending library for vehicles. I have heard the bow companies in the archery industry do the same thing. Each company buys a new model of its competitor, tears it down to see new innovations, then uses it it in some way to make theirs go 2-3 fps faster on their next model. 
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:14:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice to see a 2A giant like Trijicon go after a smaller company like Holosun. Not. I don't think people who can afford trigi's will go for holosun. EDIT: or trijicon make some cheaper shit if you want that market. So, a Chinese company copies features that are intellectual property of an American company, and you think they're in the right because they're undercutting said American company?
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:15:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m ok with it. Fuck China. “The court finds in favor of the plaintiff on the grounds China is asshoe.” |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:15:38 PM EDT
[#16]
I like my Holosun red dot with dual reticles. I’ve had it for 2 years now same battery.
I’ll buy another one when I need it. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:16:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If Holosun is copying Trijicon on the red dot, then so are half the market (including many big US brands) who make very similar sights. But Holosun is actually innovating and making decent stuff at a good price, so they are a threat. 3 different reticles for the user to select, shake a wake, solar back-up power, excellent pricing. Holosun is kicking ass. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:17:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, any questioning of the veracity of Trijicon's claim is support for China. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Never thought I'd see this much support for China here. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:18:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 3 different reticles for the user to select, shake a wake, solar back-up power, excellent pricing. Holosun is kicking ass. Clear glass, sealed battery compartment and side loading battery compartments. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:18:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will say it one last time. I am not supporting commie china. It is more for market competition. I didnt even know about the 508t until this thread. Lets be honest again, half the 'supposed gun guys in GD' buy shit because it is used by the .mil. It would be nice to see the top 3 move forward a bit. Eotech I am looking at you with battery life. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Uh, WTF? I will say it one last time. I am not supporting commie china. It is more for market competition. I didnt even know about the 508t until this thread. Lets be honest again, half the 'supposed gun guys in GD' buy shit because it is used by the .mil. It would be nice to see the top 3 move forward a bit. Eotech I am looking at you with battery life. What do you not understand about IP protections and IP theft? If Holosun is guilty of it, fuck them. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:18:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trijicon is exercising their rights as an American company? GD: fuck them. Also the GD: Buy American! Also GD: Fuck China! Also GD: Holosun good. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:19:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is very little resemblance between Trijicon and Holosun sights othe than footprint. Also, Holosun is beating Trijicon on innovations and features. Trijicon sounds like sour grapes. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:19:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, a Chinese company copies features that are intellectual property of an American company, and you think they're in the right because they're undercutting said American company? Nice, you jump in on page 4 without reading the whole thread. back at ya.ETA: I will just wait for all of your individual responses to my replies. You need to let it sink in your too knowledgeable(wayyyy above mine) skull that IP theft in this case is weak as shit. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:23:55 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 3 different reticles for the user to select, shake a wake, solar back-up power, excellent pricing. Holosun is kicking ass. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If Holosun is copying Trijicon on the red dot, then so are half the market (including many big US brands) who make very similar sights. But Holosun is actually innovating and making decent stuff at a good price, so they are a threat. 3 different reticles for the user to select, shake a wake, solar back-up power, excellent pricing. Holosun is kicking ass. When the Aimpoint Nano was first seen I figured that's be my pistols sight, but they never really released it for general sale. Then the ACRO was the ticket until it came out with a very disappointing feature set and battery life (sad since ??I love Aimpoint). Honestly now Holosun has the best optics for pistols on the market. I'd pay double or maybe even triple for the same feature set as the new Holosun V2 micro-sights made here in the US, but there aren't any. I literally spend all my day going after counterfeits most of the week. IP protection is my job. I despise Chinese business practices, the CCP, and peddlers of Chinese crap. But this does not appear to be a case of Chinese IP theft. It appears to be a big US company with a pretty mediocre feature set who trades off of reputation from decades ago going after a rising company offering a good optic with cutting-edge features at a low price. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:24:26 PM EDT
[#25]
How dare holosun steal Trijicon's side load battery design. I mean i like having to rezero after a battery change.
Also how dare samsung make a rectangular phone with rounded corners thats is shaped just like an apple phone. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:24:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like charging $500-$800 for basic, featureless red dots isn’t working out for them anymore. Their military contracts are no longer as profitable as they used to be? I have one ACOG but can't afford more to put on most of my rifles and my brother and dad who have to work within even more limited budgets are not going to get a Trijicon...I've recommended Holosuns or at max...Aimpoint. On a similar note, what Holosun would be best for an AR pistol? 
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:27:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also GD: Fuck China! Also GD: Holosun good. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Trijicon is exercising their rights as an American company? GD: fuck them. Also the GD: Buy American! Also GD: Fuck China! Also GD: Holosun good. ETA: And American companies can be as crooked as any other. Tons of examples of baseless lawsuits to remove competitors in recent memory. If Holosun actually stole IP they need to be put down hard. But if Trijicon is full of shit (and I strongly suspect they are) they need to face the same punishment. Dirty legal tactics against competitors instead of innovating better products is as un-American as it gets. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:28:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, any questioning of the veracity of Trijicon's claim is support for China. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Never thought I'd see this much support for China here. Try reading the thread. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:28:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm kinda surprised with all the "China is a**hole" and "F**k China" sentiment on this board that so many people in this thread are running to defend Holosun. So patent infringement is OK if the original product is "too expensive?" I'd like to see what the courts say. This |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:28:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit what MRDS wouldn't violate such a broad claim? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_01_jpg-1534230.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_02_jpg-1534231.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_03_jpg-1534232.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_04_jpg-1534233.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_05_jpg-1534234.JPG Why aren't they suing all the other MRDS manufacturers? |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:28:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: GD: fuck china! also GD: hold my beer while I buy every chinese product in sight china is gay, fuck china. This too |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:28:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Based on the exhibits every manufacturer in the world should be sued too? Leupold, Sig, 3, Vortex, Meprolight, Nikon, Swamofox, Burris, Docter, C-More, probably a dozen more.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:29:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Chinese companies are well known for going to great lengths to steal and counterfeit technology and know-how from American companies.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:30:49 PM EDT
[#34]
GD: fuck china, China is asshoe, China China China China
Also GD: fuck an American company for attempting to shit on a Chinese company. And still GD: go be poor somewhere else And then: but muh cheap Chinese pistol optiks |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:31:56 PM EDT
[#35]
I was recently called a hater because some dumbass here blew his gun budget wad on a geissele rail he just had to have and could only afford a holosun to put on it afterwards.
But hey, “features”... |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:32:34 PM EDT
[#36]
508T V2 is the better sight I think, hope I don't have to wait too long for it.
I would pay Trijicon money for it if I have to. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:32:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didnt Doctor optic have a MRDS years before the RMR existed? Maybe they should come back and sue trijicon. So did C-More. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:32:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck China |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:34:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To my layman's understanding, that's like GM suing Form because GM holds a patent on a "car". Why aren't they suing all the other MRDS manufacturers? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_01_jpg-1534230.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_02_jpg-1534231.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_03_jpg-1534232.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_04_jpg-1534233.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_05_jpg-1534234.JPG Why aren't they suing all the other MRDS manufacturers? Anyone still defending Trijicon after seeing that is an idiot. That's a baseless a claim as you could get, and Trijicon deserves a massive counter-suit. Fuck Trijicon for this un-American legalese bullshit instead of actually competing on their merits. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:35:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Why hasn't Aimpoint sued Primary Arms over their 30mm red dot that's made overseas? They look even more similar than the Triji-Holosun pictures posted thus far.
 
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:35:46 PM EDT
[#41]
If it's found that holosun did not violate any patents, I hope it's a kick in the ass to Trijicon to step up their game.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:36:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So did C-More. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Didnt Doctor optic have a MRDS years before the RMR existed? Maybe they should come back and sue trijicon. So did C-More. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:38:34 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_01_jpg-1534230.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_02_jpg-1534231.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_03_jpg-1534232.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_04_jpg-1534233.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401505/document-4_Page_05_jpg-1534234.JPG |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:38:39 PM EDT
[#44]
I don't have a Holosun or a Trijicon pistol sight, so no dog in this fight, but I can't see how Trij's patent claims can hold up when the features they're complaining about are available in multiple other sights on the market, including examples prior to the patent.
That said, Holosun's feature set is killer. I can't bring myself to pay their asking price for a chicom RDS, but I can certainly see why Trij is attempting to squash them and not the 87 other sights that also fit the claims. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:39:25 PM EDT
[#45]
Is Vortex next to be sued? They have multiple red dot sights that are similar in shape to an RMR and share the same footprint, also made overseas.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:39:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually I think Tasco beat everyone to the punch . Correct distribution agreement from a UK co (firepoint 1995-96). When Tasco went away firepoint sold the product in the U.S. for a few years then IP, tooling and remaining parts were bought by JP enterprises who still manufacture it as the J-point..... |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:39:51 PM EDT
[#47]
I prefer Vortex.
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:40:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cheating, or doing whatever it takes to get ahead in general, is a fairly common Chinese cultural thing. Even look at how many video game cheaters are from China, cheating is just considered part of the meta. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fuck the Chicoms, if they are stealing patented things they are thieves and need to be treated as such Actually it is part and parcel of Asian culture in general. No fucks are given for IP on the continent, it's not just China . Cheating, or doing whatever it takes to get ahead in general, is a fairly common Chinese cultural thing. Even look at how many video game cheaters are from China, cheating is just considered part of the meta. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:43:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Trijicon should work on decreasing cost and adding features that consumers want to their products instead of filing a frivolous lawsuit.
That said Fuck China, I'm not buying an Holosun products or any more Chinese optics. I don't see any merit to this lawsuit and while I hate China competition is good for consumers. |
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Posted: 8/5/2020 5:43:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Trijicon, the typical US corporation that scores a LEO/Mil contract or two, jacks their prices up to absurd levels, leaves a gigantic hole in the market and has the Chinese swoop in and fill it, then bitches. See also: Surefire. If you don't want cheaper Chinese made products to undercut yours, don't make your shit so expensive. Trijicon sights don't have to cost what a Holosun cost, but would asking for a Trijicon model that cost $350 be all that outrageous? But nope. We get $800+. You did this to yourselves and you can't sue your way out of it.
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