Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 5/5/2016 9:31:03 PM EDT
The United States Court of Appeals reviewed a lawsuit against Albuquerque officers who used a TASER™, largely in the pure “drive-stun” mode in their attempt to subdue a subject on a well-being check.  The court found against the officers and noted in their decision the distinction between use of force during a well-being check versus use of force during an arrest. [i]

The court outlined the facts as follows:

On March 21, 2011, Merlinda Perea called 911 and told the operator that her son, Perea, was on “very bad drugs” and that she was afraid of what he might do. Around the same time, a neighbor also called 911, reporting that Perea was pacing in his yard, clutching a Bible, and asking forgiveness of a higher power.  [Officers] Baca and Jaramillo were sent to perform a welfare check. The officers were informed that they were responding to a verbal fight and that no weapons were involved. They were also informed that Perea suffered from mental illness and may have been on drugs.

Upon arrival at the home, the officers were told that Perea recently left on his bicycle, that he was “acting up,” and that Merlinda Perea was afraid for Perea’s welfare. In separate patrol cars, Baca and Jaramillo began to search for Perea in case he was a danger to himself. The officers located Perea pedaling his bicycle. Perea saw the patrol car and began to pedal faster, at which point Jaramillo turned on his emergency lights. According to Baca, Perea did not stop, and instead pedaled through a stop sign without slowing down.

The officers used their patrol cars to force Perea to pedal into a parking lot. Jaramillo left his vehicle to pursue Perea on foot. After a brief chase, Jaramillo pushed Perea off his bicycle. The officers did not tell Perea why they were following him or why he was being seized, and they never asked Perea to halt or stop. After pushing Perea off his bicycle, Jaramillo reached for Perea’s hands in an attempt to detain him. Perea struggled and thrashed while holding a crucifix.

After Perea began to struggle, Baca told Jaramillo to use his taser against Perea. Jaramillo complied and first shot Perea in the chest with his taser on “probe” mode. Probe mode is used to subdue an intended target through electric shocks designed to cause immobility. When the initial shot proved ineffective, Jaramillo put the taser in “stun” or “contact” mode, which is used to gain the target’s compliance through the administration of pain. Jaramillo tasered Perea nine additional times, for a total of ten taserings in less than two minutes. At some point before the taserings stopped, Baca and Jaramillo were able to get Perea on the ground on his stomach, with both officers on top of him, effectively subduing him. After the taserings had concluded, Baca called an ambulance and a field supervisor to the scene as required by the Albuquerque Police Department taser policy.

While waiting for the ambulance, the officers noticed that Perea had stopped breathing and was turning gray. The officers successfully performed CPR, and Perea began to breathe normally. However, when Perea heard the sirens from the approaching ambulance, he began to struggle and started to scream and ask God for forgiveness. Upon arrival, the paramedics attempted to treat and calm Perea, but he stopped breathing again and his pulse stopped. Perea was transported to the hospital and pronounced dead a short time later.
View Quote


More at link: http://llrmi.com/articles/legal_update/2016_perea_v_baca.shtml
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 9:39:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 9:46:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 9:53:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Either way you are fucked.
View Quote


This isn't a Kobiashi Maru situation.  Those officers screwed up royally.

It was a welfare check.  No allegation of, and no observed criminality at all.  They had no business forcibly "apprehending" him.



Link Posted: 5/5/2016 9:53:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Sounds like a classic case of excited delirium.

Can be really dangerous. Nothing in the OP indicates bad juju except for the excessive drive stuns. Sometimes there's no contact or minimal contact when attempting to drive stun, the tasers will still internally record being used, but the suspect ain't getting anything.

Officers rendered aid, called for rescue and a supervisor. They were dealt a shit sandwhich of mental illness and drugs, idk how people expected this to go.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 9:53:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 9:55:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 9:57:52 PM EDT
[#7]
He violated every single warning by TASER.  They clearly state that dart-to-heart distance and multiple exposures in rapid succession increases the chance of death.

Edit.  I see that this occurred in 2011. I don't think these warnings were in the curriculum at that time. 99% sure.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 9:59:35 PM EDT
[#8]
ok, shoot em then.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:00:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Happens all the time.

To include misbehaving children.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


Happens all the time.

To include misbehaving children.

Shouldn't even merit a response, call center should be allowed to simply hang up.  I know it won't happen but that's not a cop situation, and agencies should avoid them like the plague.  Lobby the legislature if that's what it takes to get that bullshit off the LE plate.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:02:31 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.
View Quote


Who should the mother have called? EMS? They are only going to stage and wait for LE to tell them the scene is secure.

For along time the only tool LE had was force, (IE "Hammer"). When your only tool is a hammer, all of your problems begin to look like nails.

Mental illness is not always a nail.

I believe it was a large PD in Michigan that began the Critical Incident Training, (CIT) which showed LE other tools besides the hammer. CIT has been overall a very good response to mental health crisis situations.

In this particular instance, I see no reason for the officers to have gone after him. If he refused to stop while riding the bike, then let him ride off into the sunset...no grounds to stop and when mom wants to call and complain, point out that you had no grounds to stop him if he resisted. Mom will be upset and will complain, but what else can you do? Tackle him, tase him and then handcuff him? Cause that worked out so well.

To be honest, the bigger issue here is that he was tased after being handcuffed, and this article does not explain why the officers felt that was necessary. Probably because they did not bother to put into the report why they felt that was necessary.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:02:51 PM EDT
[#11]
I sure don't fault the officers in this situation.  They were delt a tough hand and played it the best they could of. Monday morning quarterbacking would have not changed the situation.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:05:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Sounds reasonable, you must be justified in using force, in order to legally use force. What a shit sandwich for all involved though.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:05:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Shouldn't even merit a response, call center should be allowed to simply hang up.  I know it won't happen but that's not a cop situation, and agencies should avoid them like the plague.  Lobby the legislature if that's what it takes to get that bullshit off the LE plate.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


Happens all the time.

To include misbehaving children.

Shouldn't even merit a response, call center should be allowed to simply hang up.  I know it won't happen but that's not a cop situation, and agencies should avoid them like the plague.  Lobby the legislature if that's what it takes to get that bullshit off the LE plate.


Have you ever been around mentally ill people on an episode? Who else is going to deal with them?
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:05:42 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.
View Quote


My very first complaint as a cop, many years ago, was from a mother who was having problems with her child. I was dispatched to the trailer park, show up, mom is on the porch screaming that her kid plays video games all day and never leaves the house. It sounded to me like she was having problems with an adult child based on how she worded things. I walk in and see a 9-10 year old kid sitting at the dining table eating mac and cheese, and I said "Hey is your brother here?"

"I don't have a brother."

"Oh, is anyone else home?"

"Nope."

I walked back outside, asked mom if she was talking about the little kid sitting at the table, and she says yes. I said "So, you basically called me because you can't raise your child? I'm leaving." She asked what the fuck she's supposed to do, and I said "Have you tried spanking him?" She called in a complaint on me saying that I told her she should beat her kid.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:06:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This isn't a Kobiashi Maru situation.  Those officers screwed up royally.

It was a welfare check.  No allegation of, and no observed criminality at all.  They had no business forcibly "apprehending" him.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Either way you are fucked.


This isn't a Kobiashi Maru situation.  Those officers screwed up royally.

It was a welfare check.  No allegation of, and no observed criminality at all.  They had no business forcibly "apprehending" him.




Reading is fundamental.
He pedaled right through a stop sign.

Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:07:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Happens all the time.

To include misbehaving children.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


Happens all the time.

To include misbehaving children.


It's like calling a plumber when the electric is out.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:11:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Who should the mother have called? EMS? They are only going to stage and wait for LE to tell them the scene is secure.

For along time the only tool LE had was force, (IE "Hammer"). When your only tool is a hammer, all of your problems begin to look like nails.

Mental illness is not always a nail.

I believe it was a large PD in Michigan that began the Critical Incident Training, (CIT) which showed LE other tools besides the hammer. CIT has been overall a very good response to mental health crisis situations.

In this particular instance, I see no reason for the officers to have gone after him. If he refused to stop while riding the bike, then let him ride off into the sunset...no grounds to stop and when mom wants to call and complain, point out that you had no grounds to stop him if he resisted. Mom will be upset and will complain, but what else can you do? Tackle him, tase him and then handcuff him? Cause that worked out so well.

To be honest, the bigger issue here is that he was tased after being handcuffed, and this article does not explain why the officers felt that was necessary. Probably because they did not bother to put into the report why they felt that was necessary.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


Who should the mother have called? EMS? They are only going to stage and wait for LE to tell them the scene is secure.

For along time the only tool LE had was force, (IE "Hammer"). When your only tool is a hammer, all of your problems begin to look like nails.

Mental illness is not always a nail.

I believe it was a large PD in Michigan that began the Critical Incident Training, (CIT) which showed LE other tools besides the hammer. CIT has been overall a very good response to mental health crisis situations.

In this particular instance, I see no reason for the officers to have gone after him. If he refused to stop while riding the bike, then let him ride off into the sunset...no grounds to stop and when mom wants to call and complain, point out that you had no grounds to stop him if he resisted. Mom will be upset and will complain, but what else can you do? Tackle him, tase him and then handcuff him? Cause that worked out so well.

To be honest, the bigger issue here is that he was tased after being handcuffed, and this article does not explain why the officers felt that was necessary. Probably because they did not bother to put into the report why they felt that was necessary.


1. His doctor should have him in a facility if his drugs are that dangerous and mom can't handle him.

2. Smart money says this wasn't her first rodeo with his crazy, she should have him committed before it happens again.

But we half ass treat mental illness and turn them loose on the public, then get cops to bat clean up where health care failed.  

Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:13:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Have you ever been around mentally ill people on an episode? Who else is going to deal with them?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


Happens all the time.

To include misbehaving children.

Shouldn't even merit a response, call center should be allowed to simply hang up.  I know it won't happen but that's not a cop situation, and agencies should avoid them like the plague.  Lobby the legislature if that's what it takes to get that bullshit off the LE plate.


Have you ever been around mentally ill people on an episode? Who else is going to deal with them?

LE is for law enforcement.  If they're breaking the law call cops, otherwise take care of your own shit.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:15:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Shouldn't even merit a response, call center should be allowed to simply hang up.  I know it won't happen but that's not a cop situation, and agencies should avoid them like the plague.  Lobby the legislature if that's what it takes to get that bullshit off the LE plate.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


Happens all the time.

To include misbehaving children.

Shouldn't even merit a response, call center should be allowed to simply hang up.  I know it won't happen but that's not a cop situation, and agencies should avoid them like the plague.  Lobby the legislature if that's what it takes to get that bullshit off the LE plate.

This
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:15:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


My very first complaint as a cop, many years ago, was from a mother who was having problems with her child. I was dispatched to the trailer park, show up, mom is on the porch screaming that her kid plays video games all day and never leaves the house. It sounded to me like she was having problems with an adult child based on how she worded things. I walk in and see a 9-10 year old kid sitting at the dining table eating mac and cheese, and I said "Hey is your brother here?"

"I don't have a brother."

"Oh, is anyone else home?"

"Nope."

I walked back outside, asked mom if she was talking about the little kid sitting at the table, and she says yes. I said "So, you basically called me because you can't raise your child? I'm leaving." She asked what the fuck she's supposed to do, and I said "Have you tried spanking him?" She called in a complaint on me saying that I told her she should beat her kid.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


My very first complaint as a cop, many years ago, was from a mother who was having problems with her child. I was dispatched to the trailer park, show up, mom is on the porch screaming that her kid plays video games all day and never leaves the house. It sounded to me like she was having problems with an adult child based on how she worded things. I walk in and see a 9-10 year old kid sitting at the dining table eating mac and cheese, and I said "Hey is your brother here?"

"I don't have a brother."

"Oh, is anyone else home?"

"Nope."

I walked back outside, asked mom if she was talking about the little kid sitting at the table, and she says yes. I said "So, you basically called me because you can't raise your child? I'm leaving." She asked what the fuck she's supposed to do, and I said "Have you tried spanking him?" She called in a complaint on me saying that I told her she should beat her kid.

Sheesh.  It sickens me how much money is wasted everyday with shit like this.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:22:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Sheesh.  It sickens me how much money is wasted everyday with shit like this.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


My very first complaint as a cop, many years ago, was from a mother who was having problems with her child. I was dispatched to the trailer park, show up, mom is on the porch screaming that her kid plays video games all day and never leaves the house. It sounded to me like she was having problems with an adult child based on how she worded things. I walk in and see a 9-10 year old kid sitting at the dining table eating mac and cheese, and I said "Hey is your brother here?"

"I don't have a brother."

"Oh, is anyone else home?"

"Nope."

I walked back outside, asked mom if she was talking about the little kid sitting at the table, and she says yes. I said "So, you basically called me because you can't raise your child? I'm leaving." She asked what the fuck she's supposed to do, and I said "Have you tried spanking him?" She called in a complaint on me saying that I told her she should beat her kid.

Sheesh.  It sickens me how much money is wasted everyday with shit like this.

I think it's a root cause for the many stories we read here. They are sent mixed messages. They are recruited and trained as LEO then set out and expected to do everything else. Mix in some people with a lack of common sense and everything goes to hell.
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:25:45 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:29:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:37:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Sounds like a classic case of excited delirium.

Can be really dangerous. Nothing in the OP indicates bad juju except for the excessive drive stuns. Sometimes there's no contact or minimal contact when attempting to drive stun, the tasers will still internally record being used, but the suspect ain't getting anything.

Officers rendered aid, called for rescue and a supervisor. They were dealt a shit sandwhich of mental illness and drugs, idk how people expected this to go.
View Quote


I agree. Key phrase:

her son, Perea, was on “very bad drugs”

Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:51:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:56:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 10:59:51 PM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 5/5/2016 11:03:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
But we half ass treat mental illness and turn them loose on the public, then get cops to bat clean up where health care failed.  
View Quote



Rarely have I ever, ever agreed with Hugo.

But in this case, he is spot on.

Until this country takes a hard look at the growing issues with humanely treating the mentally ill, it will never get better.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 12:54:33 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Rarely have I ever, ever agreed with Hugo.

But in this case, he is spot on.

Until this country takes a hard look at the growing issues with humanely treating the mentally ill, it will never get better.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
But we half ass treat mental illness and turn them loose on the public, then get cops to bat clean up where health care failed.  



Rarely have I ever, ever agreed with Hugo.

But in this case, he is spot on.

Until this country takes a hard look at the growing issues with humanely treating the mentally ill, it will never get better.

Yep, he's spot on.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:02:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Welfare Checks = Write a Check
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:03:20 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.
View Quote


You're right
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:04:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Agree.

But when he does something stupid and hurts himself or a third party everyone will blame the cops for not do something.

I go back to my original statement "Either way you are fucked."
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Either way you are fucked.


This isn't a Kobiashi Maru situation.  Those officers screwed up royally.

It was a welfare check.  No allegation of, and no observed criminality at all.  They had no business forcibly "apprehending" him.






Agree.

But when he does something stupid and hurts himself or a third party everyone will blame the cops for not do something.

I go back to my original statement "Either way you are fucked."

lol, or do a "search" with negative results...go 10-8 and move along to the next  "help me solve my family issues, because we are a house full of retard" call
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:08:56 AM EDT
[#33]
The officers did not tell Perea why they were following him or why he was being seized, and they never asked Perea to halt or stop
View Quote


Imagine that, a crazy person fights back against weird things.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:12:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:12:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This isn't a Kobiashi Maru situation.  Those officers screwed up royally.

It was a welfare check.  No allegation of, and no observed criminality at all.  They had no business forcibly "apprehending" him.



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Either way you are fucked.


This isn't a Kobiashi Maru situation.  Those officers screwed up royally.

It was a welfare check.  No allegation of, and no observed criminality at all.  They had no business forcibly "apprehending" him.





DUI on bicycle, ran stop sign, didn't stop when activated lights (evading).
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:13:34 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
told the operator that her son, Perea, was on “very bad drugs”......officers were told that Perea recently left on his bicycle....The officers located Perea pedaling his bicycle. Perea saw the patrol car and began to pedal faster, at which point Jaramillo turned on his emergency lights. According to Baca, Perea did not stop, and instead pedaled through a stop sign without slowing down...
View Quote

Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:16:09 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
But we half ass treat mental illness and turn them loose on the public, then get cops to bat clean up where health care failed.  

View Quote



I think that this is the second time that I've agreed with something you've posted.  However, as somebody else has already pointed out, fire / EMS won't even approach a mentally ill person acting out until the scene has been made "safe" by law enforcement, meaning physically restrained.
By default, law enforcement is going to be involved at some point.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:05:56 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I think that this is the second time that I've agreed with something you've posted.  However, as somebody else has already pointed out, fire / EMS won't even approach a mentally ill person acting out until the scene has been made "safe" by law enforcement, meaning physically restrained.
By default, law enforcement is going to be involved at some point.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
But we half ass treat mental illness and turn them loose on the public, then get cops to bat clean up where health care failed.  




I think that this is the second time that I've agreed with something you've posted.  However, as somebody else has already pointed out, fire / EMS won't even approach a mentally ill person acting out until the scene has been made "safe" by law enforcement, meaning physically restrained.
By default, law enforcement is going to be involved at some point.


I get it.  I mean if the mentally ill person commits an assault on Fire/EMS then it is within LE's dominion.  But the mental health system SHOULD BE required to inform the patient and/or guardians how things will go down if/when the patient has an episode.  If the likelihood is high the patient will have one outside of a facility, then the facility is where they belong.  Why does the medical system put patients at the risk of being killed?  Because they are half-assing their responsibility to the patient.  I'm not saying this would fully eliminate these incidents, but if the doctor looked me in the eye and said "there's a decent chance that your (insert loved one) could be seriously hurt or killed if they have an episode outside of the facility I'm not going to ignore that and neither will most people.  Instead we rely on medication that the patient may not even take or if they take it they lose the capacity to reason and let them free range in a public full of irresponsible guardians and busy body 911 callers.  It's no secret to their doctors that they're a ticking time bomb in most cases.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:20:32 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Your response reminds me of a video I watched where a Judge was sentencing a cop to prison.

Before y'all get upset, she was complaining about something similar. She complained that the mall security guards made more money than the cops who worked with the Sgt. she was sentencing made, and the money spent settling the lawsuit for this one instance if it had been spent on training likely would have made the difference in the whole situation.

You would think that cops would know the difference in arresting someone who broke the law and the level of violence that is allowed to accomplish that, is different than the level of violence that is allowed to simply do a welfare check on someone. This is just another time the ask, tell make metric that evidently is engrained into recruits in training fails.

Its is a long video. I'm going to go look for it and post it back if I can find it.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think it's a root cause for the many stories we read here. They are sent mixed messages. They are recruited and trained as LEO then set out and expected to do everything else. Mix in some people with a lack of common sense and everything goes to hell.



Your response reminds me of a video I watched where a Judge was sentencing a cop to prison.

Before y'all get upset, she was complaining about something similar. She complained that the mall security guards made more money than the cops who worked with the Sgt. she was sentencing made, and the money spent settling the lawsuit for this one instance if it had been spent on training likely would have made the difference in the whole situation.

You would think that cops would know the difference in arresting someone who broke the law and the level of violence that is allowed to accomplish that, is different than the level of violence that is allowed to simply do a welfare check on someone. This is just another time the ask, tell make metric that evidently is engrained into recruits in training fails.

Its is a long video. I'm going to go look for it and post it back if I can find it.


I've watched my Chief try to point out to Politicians that every dollar spent training is an insurance policy to prevent Lawsuits down the road..their answer is invariably "We'll deal with phantom lawsuits when they come up"...completely ignoring the point that there might not be a basis for a Lawsuit if something is addressed in training beforehand....and then go on to try and cut back the training we already get even though every bit of it is state mandated.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:24:50 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.
View Quote



I would guess 20% of our calls are for someone with a mental illness, perhaps more.  Usually 1-2 calls a day ranging from suicide threats to someone not taking medicine to all in between.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:27:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


My very first complaint as a cop, many years ago, was from a mother who was having problems with her child. I was dispatched to the trailer park, show up, mom is on the porch screaming that her kid plays video games all day and never leaves the house. It sounded to me like she was having problems with an adult child based on how she worded things. I walk in and see a 9-10 year old kid sitting at the dining table eating mac and cheese, and I said "Hey is your brother here?"

"I don't have a brother."

"Oh, is anyone else home?"

"Nope."

I walked back outside, asked mom if she was talking about the little kid sitting at the table, and she says yes. I said "So, you basically called me because you can't raise your child? I'm leaving." She asked what the fuck she's supposed to do, and I said "Have you tried spanking him?" She called in a complaint on me saying that I told her she should beat her kid.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


My very first complaint as a cop, many years ago, was from a mother who was having problems with her child. I was dispatched to the trailer park, show up, mom is on the porch screaming that her kid plays video games all day and never leaves the house. It sounded to me like she was having problems with an adult child based on how she worded things. I walk in and see a 9-10 year old kid sitting at the dining table eating mac and cheese, and I said "Hey is your brother here?"

"I don't have a brother."

"Oh, is anyone else home?"

"Nope."

I walked back outside, asked mom if she was talking about the little kid sitting at the table, and she says yes. I said "So, you basically called me because you can't raise your child? I'm leaving." She asked what the fuck she's supposed to do, and I said "Have you tried spanking him?" She called in a complaint on me saying that I told her she should beat her kid.





Sounds about typical.  

"I can't get my kid to do his/her homework"
"My kid won't go to bed"
"My kid won't do his chores"

All common calls around here
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:38:07 AM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:39:42 AM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I don't think the doctors don't tell the families, I think it's the families think that somehow their snowflake is different.

I could not count the times I've been to call, "He's normally not like this when he takes his meds." How long has he been off his meds? " A couple of months." What do you want me to do? "I don't know get him some help."


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
But we half ass treat mental illness and turn them loose on the public, then get cops to bat clean up where health care failed.  




I think that this is the second time that I've agreed with something you've posted.  However, as somebody else has already pointed out, fire / EMS won't even approach a mentally ill person acting out until the scene has been made "safe" by law enforcement, meaning physically restrained.
By default, law enforcement is going to be involved at some point.


I get it.  I mean if the mentally ill person commits an assault on Fire/EMS then it is within LE's dominion.  But the mental health system SHOULD BE required to inform the patient and/or guardians how things will go down if/when the patient has an episode.  If the likelihood is high the patient will have one outside of a facility, then the facility is where they belong.  Why does the medical system put patients at the risk of being killed?  Because they are half-assing their responsibility to the patient.  I'm not saying this would fully eliminate these incidents, but if the doctor looked me in the eye and said "there's a decent chance that your (insert loved one) could be seriously hurt or killed if they have an episode outside of the facility I'm not going to ignore that and neither will most people.  Instead we rely on medication that the patient may not even take or if they take it they lose the capacity to reason and let them free range in a public full of irresponsible guardians and busy body 911 callers.  It's no secret to their doctors that they're a ticking time bomb in most cases.



I don't think the doctors don't tell the families, I think it's the families think that somehow their snowflake is different.

I could not count the times I've been to call, "He's normally not like this when he takes his meds." How long has he been off his meds? " A couple of months." What do you want me to do? "I don't know get him some help."




"We've missed his appointments for a couple months and now he is acting really strange like this"

Well no shit.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:45:11 AM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:56:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm all about legalizing drugs and having open treatment centers and putting mentally handicapped people in a home all on the taxpayers dime using the money we are saving from putting them in the criminal justice system. That will be a lot cheaper than prison, courts, cops, and the inevitable lawsuit payouts from situations where cops kill a non-criminal mentally unsafe person.
View Quote

Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:59:36 AM EDT
[#46]
Excited delerium and electricity dont do well. Witnessed this about 10 times. Unfortunately we would be hearing about it if he pedaled through the stop sign and was hit by a car.  Sometimes the strange non textbook approach works Like getting on the PA and telling him Jesus wants to talk to him in the back of the car.  Probably would have hopped right on inside.  Sorry for the officers.  Sounds like it was a hard stugfle and they did good applying cpr.  
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:59:38 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.
View Quote

Who should you call if you yourself can not handle the situation?

I don't see it as "dumb" but rather a attempt to get help from people hired to help.

The problem comes, in my opinion, in the recruitment of less than qualified people for the job, and the Department for not adequately training the officers.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 10:02:16 AM EDT
[#48]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Common.
Back to the OP issue though I think a HUGE part of the problem is that Admins beat into patrol officers heads that they "have to do something" on every call.



Telling someone there is nothing that can be done with your wacked out relative is not good for Facebook.



Because we all know if the cops walked away and even days later the person does something they will blame the cops for not doing "something".



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.



Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.




My very first complaint as a cop, many years ago, was from a mother who was having problems with her child. I was dispatched to the trailer park, show up, mom is on the porch screaming that her kid plays video games all day and never leaves the house. It sounded to me like she was having problems with an adult child based on how she worded things. I walk in and see a 9-10 year old kid sitting at the dining table eating mac and cheese, and I said "Hey is your brother here?"



"I don't have a brother."



"Oh, is anyone else home?"



"Nope."



I walked back outside, asked mom if she was talking about the little kid sitting at the table, and she says yes. I said "So, you basically called me because you can't raise your child? I'm leaving." She asked what the fuck she's supposed to do, and I said "Have you tried spanking him?" She called in a complaint on me saying that I told her she should beat her kid.











Sounds about typical.  



"I can't get my kid to do his/her homework"

"My kid won't go to bed"

"My kid won't do his chores"



All common calls around here

Common.
Back to the OP issue though I think a HUGE part of the problem is that Admins beat into patrol officers heads that they "have to do something" on every call.



Telling someone there is nothing that can be done with your wacked out relative is not good for Facebook.



Because we all know if the cops walked away and even days later the person does something they will blame the cops for not doing "something".



Recently had a mentally ill adult die much the same way near here.  It was the 200th or something response to the home over the years . I think it stands as a great example the officers did really well for that many encounters and nothing went wrong except the last time.  
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 10:02:48 AM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Shouldn't even merit a response, call center should be allowed to simply hang up.  I know it won't happen but that's not a cop situation, and agencies should avoid them like the plague.  Lobby the legislature if that's what it takes to get that bullshit off the LE plate.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nosey busy bodies and cops go together so well. Like peas and carrots, throw in a dash of mental illness and you have a party.

Eta: I failed to note it was mom that called and not a neighbor.  Still. Calling cops for help in a mental illness situation is dumb.


Happens all the time.

To include misbehaving children.

Shouldn't even merit a response, call center should be allowed to simply hang up.  I know it won't happen but that's not a cop situation, and agencies should avoid them like the plague.  Lobby the legislature if that's what it takes to get that bullshit off the LE plate.

If you were a Governor or Division Chief with that attitude, you would be sued into next century and run out of town on a rail.

You sir, are viewed as quite medieval and Machiavellian in polite society.

You are entitled to your opinion, but please keep it in your own family and never be in a "service" type job................you suck at it.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 10:05:57 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I hate check the welfare calls.   It almost always ends up as a "what the hell am I supposed to do now?" type with these people.

View Quote

We all say that. It sucks. The best you can do is minimize the harm as best you can.

There are no "do this" and then That" manuals for mentally ill people.

Bama said it best, "You're fucked either way"....

Comes with the badge.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top