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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:01:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our society is collapsing, every institution lost and everything is now an increased risk or flat out trying to kill you. In this new normal even mistakes that are occurring at the same rate as previous are part of the chaos and we question the cause. There are something like 30,000 domestic commercial flights every single day in the US. Steel tubes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, flying hundreds of miles per hour, with hundreds of people on board, miles high in the sky. Occasionally something news worthy will occur, but commercial air travel is exponentially safer than getting on the roads today. I think you can loosen the tin foil hat just a touch. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:01:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We left an airshow with only 30k of fuel and shot off like a rocket. 707 type? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:08:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well since I am a student pilots, I get to interact with other student pilots. They are mostly younger dudes trying to fly commerically. They are fairly retarded, Now you see why I like Airbus  An Airbus didn’t stop 3 pilots from stalling an A330 at 30k+ ft and then riding it all the way to the bottom of the ocean (nose up almost the whole way). No current airframe is immune to incompetent airmanship. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:23:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: CVR will have been overwritten but the FDR - as n20junkie said - would still have had everything for this flight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Pilots better hope there was documented weather that could have caused that. Pilot flying should have been on instruments but both should have noticed the rapid loss of positive rate. If they didn't, their passengers sure fucking did lol. This is a retarded post. The FDR will easily show if this was a pilot induced situation or weather related. Let me guess, new PPL, got about 150 hours? Article clearly stated that because they continued on with the flight which was over two hours in length, the data from the incident would have been overwritten. Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:29:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well since I am a student pilots, I get to interact with other student pilots. They are mostly younger dudes trying to fly commerically. They are fairly retarded, Now you see why I like Airbus Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I saw a 777 Capt in a You Tube post, said something to the effect of "this looks like a stall upon slat retraction during climbout......the margin is only 5kts". I know we have some Airline Captains here, would like to know their thoughts. Maybe another MCAS type scenario? well that's some shitty fucking engineering. fucking Boeing....I swear Boeing is a "pilot's" plane. If the pilot calls for something, the Boeing doth giveth. So when the pilot calls for a flight control change that drastically reduces lift then the plane allows it and becomes a passenger to the laws of physics just like all the meatbags it's transporting. 99.99% of the time it works all the time. The question shouldn't be "how much do you trust Boeing", rather "how much do you trust your pilots". Well since I am a student pilots, I get to interact with other student pilots. They are mostly younger dudes trying to fly commerically. They are fairly retarded, Now you see why I like Airbus Boeing had a system so critical that invalid inputs would cause everyone to die, yet they only used the readings for a single sensor for its input. This caused two aircraft to crash, killing everyone onboard. Then instead of recognizing the error and fixing it, they blamed the pilots and acted like nothing was wrong. It wasn't until the entire fleet was grounded that they worked on a solution - and it required only a software update! Fucking flying on a Boeing! They've gone way down hill over the past 20 years! |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:30:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yeah man initial climb out is gonna be like 3000 ft min, which is nice....but 8500 ft min...  Even a lear 24, climbed out at 6500 ft min and that's like the big dick swinger in the civilian world of aircraft climb performance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: lmaooooooooo wtf is that graphic? 777-200 climing at 8600 ft per min? HOLY SHIT they must have solid rocket boosters on that model!!!!  we took off of KWI-- FULL 777 plane of troops, and three, 80lb bags each....thing took off and climbed like it wasnt even trying. yeah man initial climb out is gonna be like 3000 ft min, which is nice....but 8500 ft min... Even a lear 24, climbed out at 6500 ft min and that's like the big dick swinger in the civilian world of aircraft climb performance. The aircraft will have gained a shit ton of airspeed in the dive which they could quickly convert into altitude by climbing faster to bleed off the excess speed. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:41:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Highly competent, well trained, and proficient pilots make errors of varying magnitudes daily, on every flight. How can this not be understood by so many? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:43:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Boeing had a system so critical that invalid inputs would cause everyone to die, yet they only used the readings for a single sensor for its input. This caused two aircraft to crash, killing everyone onboard. Then instead of recognizing the error and fixing it, they blamed the pilots and acted like nothing was wrong. It wasn't until the entire fleet was grounded that they worked on a solution - and it required only a software update! Fucking flying on a Boeing! They've gone way down hill over the past 20 years! That would be the MCAS system for which the design/concept was so inept that it is beyond stupid. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:46:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Microburst would be my first guess. Radar does not pick them up very well at all. Some airports (DFW for one) have a pretty advanced windshear detection system but most do not. What is strange is that there isn't any statement specifically about this. If it was a microburst/windshear encounter it should have been well documented and reported on. Was there a airplane (Delta?) that crashed during landing at DFW...roughly 1985. I think the cause was a microburst or similar. If true see if the passenger manifest has a person with the last name "Sulkin." Son of the Deputy Commander of the USAF unit I was in at the time. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:49:46 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I saw a 777 Capt in a You Tube post, said something to the effect of "this looks like a stall upon slat retraction during climbout......the margin is only 5kts". I know we have some Airline Captains here, would like to know their thoughts. Maybe another MCAS type scenario? The margin is more than 5 knots. Typically a safety factor of 1.2. Is it possible the pilot called for flaps up and the copilot raised the flaps and mistakenly retracted the slats as well? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:51:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I saw a 777 Capt in a You Tube post, said something to the effect of "this looks like a stall upon slat retraction during climbout......the margin is only 5kts". I know we have some Airline Captains here, would like to know their thoughts. Maybe another MCAS type scenario? That's not correct at all. Even if that's what happened, a 777 isn't recovering from a full out stall that quickly. Sounds like a weather related issue more than anything, which is probably why it wasn't reported much. Hawaii and the tropics in general can see some pretty wild weather. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 12:59:42 PM EDT
[#12]
I was on a Delta flight that lost an engine midway through the climb to cruising altitude. It dove and pitched (not sure if that's the correct term) so hard my ass was off the seat and my stomach in my mouth. It was scary for a couple seconds till the crew got it under control. People were LOSING THEIR MINDS! (que Ron White). The descent into an emergency landing was less than routine as well. They got that bitch down really, really fast! Almost ran off the end of the runway as well. The replacement plane that showed up 4 hours later was half empty when we took off. I guessed a bunch of folks said "that's enough of that shit" and hit the rental car counter.
That was nowhere near as bad as what these passengers experienced. I'll bet a lot of them will never fly again and I couldn't blame them. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:10:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn. I’ve been on some rough flights in my life but that would’ve been nuts. We did a touch & go landing in CO. Springs a few years back, that was memorable & definitely had a little pucker factor. Pilot came on & said the wind had shifted & we would be taking her out & bringing her back. Saw a flight attendant thrown to the floor & crawl several rows of seats to an empty aisle seat, climb in & buckle herself down tight once. Also flying into COS on another occasion. Did the touch and go thing during a nasty storm on Detroit. They said a microburst popped up and blew the plane too far down the runway so up we go. Then he said we don't have enough fuel to loiter over the D waiting for the storm to pass so we're diverting to Cleveland. I don't remember it being bad, just different. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:16:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm glad that I am not the only one that has noticed this. Folks, we had peak civilization in the US about a decade ago. Now, after decades of lowered or nonexistent standards, you can expect more building and bridge collapses, more airliner crashes, and just more stuff that doesn't work well or run smoothly. I predict that the overall airliner safety statistics will continually get worse, and will never again regain their peak levels for the forseeable future. (until they start enforcing standards again and hiring based on merit) I used to work in testing industrial products - things have really gone downhill. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Get used to this…and that near miss in Austin. Standards are dropping in everything from lawyers and doctors to special forces. Have to assume no industry is immune. I'm glad that I am not the only one that has noticed this. Folks, we had peak civilization in the US about a decade ago. Now, after decades of lowered or nonexistent standards, you can expect more building and bridge collapses, more airliner crashes, and just more stuff that doesn't work well or run smoothly. I predict that the overall airliner safety statistics will continually get worse, and will never again regain their peak levels for the forseeable future. (until they start enforcing standards again and hiring based on merit) I used to work in testing industrial products - things have really gone downhill. Just a matter of time, I’m afraid. Holes in the cheese are beginning to align. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:20:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would be the MCAS system for which the design/concept was so inept that it is beyond stupid. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Boeing had a system so critical that invalid inputs would cause everyone to die, yet they only used the readings for a single sensor for its input. This caused two aircraft to crash, killing everyone onboard. Then instead of recognizing the error and fixing it, they blamed the pilots and acted like nothing was wrong. It wasn't until the entire fleet was grounded that they worked on a solution - and it required only a software update! Fucking flying on a Boeing! They've gone way down hill over the past 20 years! That would be the MCAS system for which the design/concept was so inept that it is beyond stupid. The original MCAS design/concept was sound: It was developed to automatically trim the KC-46 tanker because the weight and balance of the airplane shifts as it redistributes and offloads fuel. However, it was designed as a 2 sensor system. The only real faults with its implementation on the 737 MAX were using a single sensor and not requiring additional training about it. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:28:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are something like 30,000 domestic commercial flights every single day in the US. Steel tubes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, flying hundreds of miles per hour, with hundreds of people on board, miles high in the sky. Occasionally something news worthy will occur, but commercial air travel is exponentially safer than getting on the roads today. I think you can loosen the tin foil hat just a touch. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Our society is collapsing, every institution lost and everything is now an increased risk or flat out trying to kill you. In this new normal even mistakes that are occurring at the same rate as previous are part of the chaos and we question the cause. There are something like 30,000 domestic commercial flights every single day in the US. Steel tubes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, flying hundreds of miles per hour, with hundreds of people on board, miles high in the sky. Occasionally something news worthy will occur, but commercial air travel is exponentially safer than getting on the roads today. I think you can loosen the tin foil hat just a touch. That is a good thing and shows how much safety is built into the systems and training. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:34:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's possible the captain had the vast majority of that time with an inexperienced first officer. That scenario is happening more and more these days. For the first time ever, the air line I work for is having new hire first officers assigned Airbus 330 as their first aircraft. Hell, we've had some new pilots make 767/757 captain inside of 6 months. It's nuts out there. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get used to this…and that near miss in Austin. Standards are dropping in everything from lawyers and doctors to special forces. Have to assume no industry is immune. Standards? Flight crew had nearly 25 THOUSAND hours between them, per the article. It's possible the captain had the vast majority of that time with an inexperienced first officer. That scenario is happening more and more these days. For the first time ever, the air line I work for is having new hire first officers assigned Airbus 330 as their first aircraft. Hell, we've had some new pilots make 767/757 captain inside of 6 months. It's nuts out there. That’s absolutely insane. Kit Darby was right! (Just 30 years late) |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:34:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are something like 30,000 domestic commercial flights every single day in the US. Steel tubes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, flying hundreds of miles per hour, with hundreds of people on board, miles high in the sky. Occasionally something news worthy will occur, but commercial air travel is exponentially safer than getting on the roads today. I think you can loosen the tin foil hat just a touch. Which airline is flying the steel tubes? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:37:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryNo it doesn’t. The 777 is probably the last great airplane designed and built by Boeing. The 787 was a production basket case and has quite a few gremlins. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:38:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which airline is flying the steel tubes? Don’t be pedantic. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:39:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An Airbus didn’t stop 3 pilots from stalling an A330 at 30k+ ft and then riding it all the way to the bottom of the ocean (nose up almost the whole way). No current airframe is immune to incompetent airmanship. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well since I am a student pilots, I get to interact with other student pilots. They are mostly younger dudes trying to fly commerically. They are fairly retarded, Now you see why I like Airbus An Airbus didn’t stop 3 pilots from stalling an A330 at 30k+ ft and then riding it all the way to the bottom of the ocean (nose up almost the whole way). No current airframe is immune to incompetent airmanship. can you say that without a shadow of a doubt it was not aliens? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:40:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The aircraft will have gained a shit ton of airspeed in the dive which they could quickly convert into altitude by climbing faster to bleed off the excess speed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: lmaooooooooo wtf is that graphic? 777-200 climing at 8600 ft per min? HOLY SHIT they must have solid rocket boosters on that model!!!! we took off of KWI-- FULL 777 plane of troops, and three, 80lb bags each....thing took off and climbed like it wasnt even trying. yeah man initial climb out is gonna be like 3000 ft min, which is nice....but 8500 ft min... Even a lear 24, climbed out at 6500 ft min and that's like the big dick swinger in the civilian world of aircraft climb performance. The aircraft will have gained a shit ton of airspeed in the dive which they could quickly convert into altitude by climbing faster to bleed off the excess speed. yeah but at what point are you loading the fuck out of the wings? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:52:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are something like 30,000 domestic commercial flights every single day in the US. Steel tubes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, flying hundreds of miles per hour, with hundreds of people on board, miles high in the sky. Occasionally something news worthy will occur, but commercial air travel is exponentially safer than getting on the roads today. I think you can loosen the tin foil hat just a touch. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Our society is collapsing, every institution lost and everything is now an increased risk or flat out trying to kill you. In this new normal even mistakes that are occurring at the same rate as previous are part of the chaos and we question the cause. There are something like 30,000 domestic commercial flights every single day in the US. Steel tubes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, flying hundreds of miles per hour, with hundreds of people on board, miles high in the sky. Occasionally something news worthy will occur, but commercial air travel is exponentially safer than getting on the roads today. I think you can loosen the tin foil hat just a touch. You are missing the point. Commercial air travel has been incredibly safe for decades -- safer than driving. But just because it is still relatively safe now, doesn't mean that a downward trend is safety is nothing to be concerned about. The trends are very bad. When you abandon standards in high schools and universities, eventually, the quality of your managers, engineers (and pilots) goes down. The 737 Max debacle should never have happened. It was so grossly irresponsible that I don't believe that Boeing would ever have done anything like that 20 years ago. The decline in management and engineering across industries is already showing up in the end product quality and statistics. Anybody that is observant has already been seeing examples of this. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:57:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: can you say that without a shadow of a doubt it was not aliens? In the cockpit? Most likely. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:58:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the cockpit? Most likely. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: can you say that without a shadow of a doubt it was not aliens? In the cockpit? Most likely. Flight deck sir |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:59:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are missing the point. Commercial air travel has been incredibly safe for decades -- safer than driving. But just because it is still relatively safe now, doesn't mean that a downward trend is safety is nothing to be concerned about. The trends are very bad. When you abandon standards in high schools and universities, eventually, the quality of your managers, engineers (and pilots) goes down. The 737 Max debacle should never have happened. It was so grossly irresponsible that I don't believe that Boeing would ever have done anything like that 20 years ago. The decline in management and engineering across industries is already showing up in the end product quality and statistics. Anybody that is observant has already been seeing examples of this. Without doing a second of research, I’d be willing to bet that commercial air travel is statistically safer today than at any point in history. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 1:59:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it doesn’t. The 777 is probably the last great airplane designed and built by Boeing. The 787 was a production basket case and has quite a few gremlins. Quote HistoryQuoted: No it doesn’t. The 777 is probably the last great airplane designed and built by Boeing. The 787 was a production basket case and has quite a few gremlins. I concur on the 777. It's my preferred aircraft for trans-Pacific flights (passenger). I was excited to fly (passenger) on a 787 for the first time, looking forward to an improved experience, but to my surprise, I found it overall a more uncomfortable aircraft to fly on. Also, it seemed to be noisier than the 777, although that is just my impression. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:08:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Without doing a second of research, I’d be willing to bet that commercial air travel is statistically safer today than at any point in history. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are missing the point. Commercial air travel has been incredibly safe for decades -- safer than driving. But just because it is still relatively safe now, doesn't mean that a downward trend is safety is nothing to be concerned about. The trends are very bad. When you abandon standards in high schools and universities, eventually, the quality of your managers, engineers (and pilots) goes down. The 737 Max debacle should never have happened. It was so grossly irresponsible that I don't believe that Boeing would ever have done anything like that 20 years ago. The decline in management and engineering across industries is already showing up in the end product quality and statistics. Anybody that is observant has already been seeing examples of this. Without doing a second of research, I’d be willing to bet that commercial air travel is statistically safer today than at any point in history. I haven't looked up anything either, but I suspect that the annual safety stats right after the two 737 max crashes were lower than the annual average for the points in history 2-5 years previously. I think those accidents were not a statistical fluke, but a direct result of incompetent and unethical decisions from Boeing, and it's likely that those accidents (that never would have occured under earlier Boeing management) have significantly reduced the overall safety statistics. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:09:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Word on the street is a flaps retraction all the way to 0 when pilot flying called for them to be retracted from 20 to 5. I’m sure the weather didn’t help things either. Entirely possible theory. If they were manually flying, they would have had to hold a hell of an AOA and have engines at TOGA for flaps 20 -> 0. Definitely explains the rapid loss of altitude as the wongs stopped generating enough lift. ***Just my flight sim observations from here on out. Im not a pilot*** IIRC from my 777s in MSFS2020, 777s have flaps 0,1,5,10,20, 25, 35. 1 is just slats, 5 is the smallest deployment of main flaps. If I set the sim to Max TOW, Im typically flaps 20 for take off, hit 165 knits, flaps 10, 180 knots then flaps 5. Flaps 5 until until FL100, then flaps 1 with climb rate of 1800 fpm until Im at cruise altutude. I have the sim set auto trim and if I get greedy with climb rate and walka away, even the 777s enormous engines cant keep the airspeed climbing to cruise without lift help. Ill come back with AOA at like positive 78% lol |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:11:52 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't looked up anything either, but I suspect that the annual safety stats right after the two 737 max crashes were lower than the annual average for the points in history 2-5 years previously. I think those accidents were not a statistical fluke, but a direct result of incompetent and unethical decisions from Boeing, and it's likely that those accidents (that never would have occured under earlier Boeing management) have significantly reduced the overall safety statistics. The Max had issues, for sure. But foreign pilot training also leaves much to be desired. Comparing our domestic commercial safety rates to international commercial safety rates isn’t a level comparison. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:13:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is a retarded post. The FDR will easily show if this was a pilot induced situation or weather related. Let me guess, new PPL, got about 150 hours? 500 in MSFS thank you very much.
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:17:41 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the good Airplane! Memes have been used up. That would’ve been 10 pucker factor. I am not a pilot but represent pilots in industry related matters. I strongly fear the safety of our airline industry is being played with in the name of woke progress. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:22:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are something like 30,000 domestic commercial flights every single day in the US. Steel tubes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, flying hundreds of miles per hour, with hundreds of people on board, miles high in the sky. Occasionally something news worthy will occur, but commercial air travel is exponentially safer than getting on the roads today. I think you can loosen the tin foil hat just a touch. Part 121 is the safest, fastest, most economical, most convenient (yes, I mean that) mode of travel man has ever known. OP's event killed 0 people. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:24:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Boeing had a system so critical that invalid inputs would cause everyone to die, yet they only used the readings for a single sensor for its input. This caused two aircraft to crash, killing everyone onboard. Then instead of recognizing the error and fixing it, they blamed the pilots and acted like nothing was wrong. It wasn't until the entire fleet was grounded that they worked on a solution - and it required only a software update! Fucking flying on a Boeing! They've gone way down hill over the past 20 years! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I saw a 777 Capt in a You Tube post, said something to the effect of "this looks like a stall upon slat retraction during climbout......the margin is only 5kts". I know we have some Airline Captains here, would like to know their thoughts. Maybe another MCAS type scenario? well that's some shitty fucking engineering. fucking Boeing....I swear Boeing is a "pilot's" plane. If the pilot calls for something, the Boeing doth giveth. So when the pilot calls for a flight control change that drastically reduces lift then the plane allows it and becomes a passenger to the laws of physics just like all the meatbags it's transporting. 99.99% of the time it works all the time. The question shouldn't be "how much do you trust Boeing", rather "how much do you trust your pilots". Well since I am a student pilots, I get to interact with other student pilots. They are mostly younger dudes trying to fly commerically. They are fairly retarded, Now you see why I like Airbus Boeing had a system so critical that invalid inputs would cause everyone to die, yet they only used the readings for a single sensor for its input. This caused two aircraft to crash, killing everyone onboard. Then instead of recognizing the error and fixing it, they blamed the pilots and acted like nothing was wrong. It wasn't until the entire fleet was grounded that they worked on a solution - and it required only a software update! Fucking flying on a Boeing! They've gone way down hill over the past 20 years! The only thing worse than Boeing's reaction to this monumental fuckup, was all the US ATPs going "there is nothing wrong with the airplane! Memory item!!! Runaway Trim disconnect! Poorly trained monkey pilots!" As if they are immune to human factors such as startle response and task saturation when the airplane suddenly develops a mind of it's own and is trying to kill you. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:27:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The original MCAS design/concept was sound: It was developed to automatically trim the KC-46 tanker because the weight and balance of the airplane shifts as it redistributes and offloads fuel. However, it was designed as a 2 sensor system. The only real faults with its implementation on the 737 MAX were using a single sensor and not requiring additional training about it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Boeing had a system so critical that invalid inputs would cause everyone to die, yet they only used the readings for a single sensor for its input. This caused two aircraft to crash, killing everyone onboard. Then instead of recognizing the error and fixing it, they blamed the pilots and acted like nothing was wrong. It wasn't until the entire fleet was grounded that they worked on a solution - and it required only a software update! Fucking flying on a Boeing! They've gone way down hill over the past 20 years! That would be the MCAS system for which the design/concept was so inept that it is beyond stupid. The original MCAS design/concept was sound: It was developed to automatically trim the KC-46 tanker because the weight and balance of the airplane shifts as it redistributes and offloads fuel. However, it was designed as a 2 sensor system. The only real faults with its implementation on the 737 MAX were using a single sensor and not requiring additional training about it. This is 80% of the story. The other (and most important) 20% of the story was: the fucking MBA geniuses implementing "PSR" at Boeing made a second, redundant AoA sensor that any dumbass could have figured out was necessary for safety, an ADDITIONAL COST OPTION to the customer! |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:28:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pilots better hope there was documented weather that could have caused that. Pilot flying should have been on instruments but both should have noticed the rapid loss of positive rate. If they didn't, their passengers sure fucking did lol. It takes time for the turbine engines to spin up to a higher power and if they did hit a microburst, it takes altitude to recover the airspeed (probably didnt describe that right as it's been years since i have been in a cockpit). |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:29:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are missing the point. Commercial air travel has been incredibly safe for decades -- safer than driving. But just because it is still relatively safe now, doesn't mean that a downward trend is safety is nothing to be concerned about. The trends are very bad. When you abandon standards in high schools and universities, eventually, the quality of your managers, engineers (and pilots) goes down. The 737 Max debacle should never have happened. It was so grossly irresponsible that I don't believe that Boeing would ever have done anything like that 20 years ago. The decline in management and engineering across industries is already showing up in the end product quality and statistics. Anybody that is observant has already been seeing examples of this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Our society is collapsing, every institution lost and everything is now an increased risk or flat out trying to kill you. In this new normal even mistakes that are occurring at the same rate as previous are part of the chaos and we question the cause. There are something like 30,000 domestic commercial flights every single day in the US. Steel tubes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, flying hundreds of miles per hour, with hundreds of people on board, miles high in the sky. Occasionally something news worthy will occur, but commercial air travel is exponentially safer than getting on the roads today. I think you can loosen the tin foil hat just a touch. You are missing the point. Commercial air travel has been incredibly safe for decades -- safer than driving. But just because it is still relatively safe now, doesn't mean that a downward trend is safety is nothing to be concerned about. The trends are very bad. When you abandon standards in high schools and universities, eventually, the quality of your managers, engineers (and pilots) goes down. The 737 Max debacle should never have happened. It was so grossly irresponsible that I don't believe that Boeing would ever have done anything like that 20 years ago. The decline in management and engineering across industries is already showing up in the end product quality and statistics. Anybody that is observant has already been seeing examples of this. There is also a massive, ongoing reduction in performance standards in the medical field as well. Everything woke turns to shit. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:33:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Without doing a second of research, I’d be willing to bet that commercial air travel is statistically safer today than at any point in history. Which doesn't really have any bearing on his point. Automated safety systems are still accelerating into use and can paper-over staffing quality issues to a point, and right up until it doesn't. Pilots also become more dependent on those systems and loose some intuitive understanding of plane doing this == that. I have no reason to think that airlines are some grand exception to the quality issues that most every industry is experiencing in staffing. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:35:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not correct at all. Even if that's what happened, a 777 isn't recovering from a full out stall that quickly. Sounds like a weather related issue more than anything, which is probably why it wasn't reported much. Hawaii and the tropics in general can see some pretty wild weather. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I saw a 777 Capt in a You Tube post, said something to the effect of "this looks like a stall upon slat retraction during climbout......the margin is only 5kts". I know we have some Airline Captains here, would like to know their thoughts. Maybe another MCAS type scenario? That's not correct at all. Even if that's what happened, a 777 isn't recovering from a full out stall that quickly. Sounds like a weather related issue more than anything, which is probably why it wasn't reported much. Hawaii and the tropics in general can see some pretty wild weather. Someone earlier in the thread said that the Airline issued a brief statement that said the pilots underwent some retraining. That combined with the actual airline rumor mill suggest that it was indeed a inadvertent full retraction of flaps/slats at inappropriate airspeed. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:36:44 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Max had issues, for sure. But foreign pilot training also leaves much to be desired. Comparing our domestic commercial safety rates to international commercial safety rates isn’t a level comparison. Boeing screwed the pooch on their training & documentation on the 737-MAX as they sold it to airlines as "Just another 737" for commonality of rating & no extra special training needed. That single point sensor system + lack of training on MCAS was very bad news for those two flights. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:38:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Uggh....
ITT, non pilots tell pilots how it REALLY is, cause reasons and stuff. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:41:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It takes time for the turbine engines to spin up to a higher power and if they did hit a microburst, it takes altitude to recover the airspeed (probably didnt describe that right as it's been years since i have been in a cockpit). No, that makes sense for sure. But at 2,200 AGL, Id expect them to still be on TOGA thrust setting. If it wasn't a mistake made by the Pilot Monitoring getting the flaps to the called out setting and indeed a microburst, the drop and subsequent recovery time makes sense. Pilots gotta process what happened, current state of the airplane and decide on appropriate action. They might have some Airline sim training for events like this, but actually feeling a rapid loss of altitude from a weather event much be fucking terrifying. Then relying on your training muscle memory to kick in and Aviate. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:42:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Entirely possible theory. If they were manually flying, they would have had to hold a hell of an AOA and have engines at TOGA for flaps 20 -> 0. Definitely explains the rapid loss of altitude as the wongs stopped generating enough lift. ***Just my flight sim observations from here on out. Im not a pilot*** IIRC from my 777s in MSFS2020, 777s have flaps 0,1,5,10,20, 25, 35. 1 is just slats, 5 is the smallest deployment of main flaps. If I set the sim to Max TOW, Im typically flaps 20 for take off, hit 165 knits, flaps 10, 180 knots then flaps 5. Flaps 5 until until FL100, then flaps 1 with climb rate of 1800 fpm until Im at cruise altutude. I have the sim set auto trim and if I get greedy with climb rate and walka away, even the 777s enormous engines cant keep the airspeed climbing to cruise without lift help. Ill come back with AOA at like positive 78% lol Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Word on the street is a flaps retraction all the way to 0 when pilot flying called for them to be retracted from 20 to 5. I’m sure the weather didn’t help things either. Entirely possible theory. If they were manually flying, they would have had to hold a hell of an AOA and have engines at TOGA for flaps 20 -> 0. Definitely explains the rapid loss of altitude as the wongs stopped generating enough lift. ***Just my flight sim observations from here on out. Im not a pilot*** IIRC from my 777s in MSFS2020, 777s have flaps 0,1,5,10,20, 25, 35. 1 is just slats, 5 is the smallest deployment of main flaps. If I set the sim to Max TOW, Im typically flaps 20 for take off, hit 165 knits, flaps 10, 180 knots then flaps 5. Flaps 5 until until FL100, then flaps 1 with climb rate of 1800 fpm until Im at cruise altutude. I have the sim set auto trim and if I get greedy with climb rate and walka away, even the 777s enormous engines cant keep the airspeed climbing to cruise without lift help. Ill come back with AOA at like positive 78% lol FWIW, that's how do you don't fly a 777. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:44:10 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/NYPICHPDPICT000006617103.jpg?quality=75&strip=all Happened back in December. "A United Airlines flight dove 1,400 feet in under a minute shortly after taking off from Hawaii and came within just 775 feet of the Pacific Ocean en route to San Francisco. Flight 1722 took off from Kahului Airport in Maui at 2:49 p.m. Dec. 18 during stormy weather and reached an altitude of about 2,200 feet before taking the terrifying plunge, the Air Current reported, citing data from FlightRadar24. No one was injured during the incident, which has not been previously reported. The Boeing 777-200 reached a descent rate of almost 8,600 feet per minute before the crew regained control when the plane was a mere 775 feet above the water, according to the outlet." https://nypost.com/2023/02/13/united-flight-from-hawaii-came-within-775-feet-of-plunging-into-pacific-ocean/ I think I read about a 787 doing something similar out of Doha a few weeks ago too. No cause mentioned in that story either. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:47:09 PM EDT
[#45]
IDK if statistics is a good metric. Let's say you have 10 airplanes, and just one crashes. Not so bad.
Now, you have 10000 and only 1000 crashes. Statistically the same, but, not. There's a lot of aircraft out there. If we lose 3 a day, people will probably stop flying. Statistically safer than driving a car? Maybe, but it is the survival thing that keeps people taking their chances on terra firma. Logically, flying an aircraft is dangerous as all get out. But then, so is riding a motorcycle. I'd like to think that my time spent wrenching on jets kept the task easy for those whose job it was to strap in and head out towards the danger. Tried civilian maintenance and couldn't sleep at night. Duct tape and bailing wire. No thanks. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 2:53:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IDK if statistics is a good metric. Let's say you have 10 airplanes, and just one crashes. Not so bad. Now, you have 10000 and only 1000 crashes. Statistically the same, but, not. There's a lot of aircraft out there. If we lose 3 a day, people will probably stop flying. Statistically safer than driving a car? Maybe, but it is the survival thing that keeps people taking their chances on terra firma. Logically, flying an aircraft is dangerous as all get out. But then, so is riding a motorcycle. I'd like to think that my time spent wrenching on jets kept the task easy for those whose job it was to strap in and head out towards the danger. Tried civilian maintenance and couldn't sleep at night. Duct tape and bailing wire. No thanks. “Statistically safer than driving a car? Maybe…” There hasn’t been a domestic US commercial fatality since 2009. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 3:10:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would be the MCAS system for which the design/concept was so inept that it is beyond stupid. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Boeing had a system so critical that invalid inputs would cause everyone to die, yet they only used the readings for a single sensor for its input. This caused two aircraft to crash, killing everyone onboard. Then instead of recognizing the error and fixing it, they blamed the pilots and acted like nothing was wrong. It wasn't until the entire fleet was grounded that they worked on a solution - and it required only a software update! Fucking flying on a Boeing! They've gone way down hill over the past 20 years! That would be the MCAS system for which the design/concept was so inept that it is beyond stupid. Yep! So inept that they actively tried to hide it from the FAA and the pilots so Boeing could tell airlines that pilots wouldn't require any new training. The company got fined $2.5Bn for defrauding the FAA by concealing the existence of the system. I'll say it again, fuck Boeing. And fuck flying on anything made by Boeing in the last 20 years. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 3:13:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “Statistically safer than driving a car? Maybe…” There hasn’t been a domestic US commercial fatality since 2009. Didn't SWA have a fatality when the plane self depressurized? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 3:14:33 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The original MCAS design/concept was sound: It was developed to automatically trim the KC-46 tanker because the weight and balance of the airplane shifts as it redistributes and offloads fuel. However, it was designed as a 2 sensor system. The only real faults with its implementation on the 737 MAX were using a single sensor and not requiring additional training about it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Boeing had a system so critical that invalid inputs would cause everyone to die, yet they only used the readings for a single sensor for its input. This caused two aircraft to crash, killing everyone onboard. Then instead of recognizing the error and fixing it, they blamed the pilots and acted like nothing was wrong. It wasn't until the entire fleet was grounded that they worked on a solution - and it required only a software update! Fucking flying on a Boeing! They've gone way down hill over the past 20 years! That would be the MCAS system for which the design/concept was so inept that it is beyond stupid. The original MCAS design/concept was sound: It was developed to automatically trim the KC-46 tanker because the weight and balance of the airplane shifts as it redistributes and offloads fuel. However, it was designed as a 2 sensor system. The only real faults with its implementation on the 737 MAX were using a single sensor and not requiring additional training about it. That, and the MCAS activation couldn't be undone. It could adjust the elevator beyond what was recoverable and could not be reversed. They found that if the MCAS system had a runaway fault, and wasn't diagnosed and disabled in less than 10 seconds, the aircraft was unrecoverable. In fact, in the second crash, the FO called out the runaway elevator trim and disabled it. But it was too late and there was nothing they could do. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 3:15:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't SWA have a fatality when the plane self depressurized? You appear to be correct. April 2018. |
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