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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:19:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F22 appears to be the only who hast had a chance to shine. We are selling more aF35s than we are keeping. That is not the case with F22 The F22 was never for export. Its hard to know how its been used but I imagine it does a lot of things that we don't hear about. Things change and capabilities evolve. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:20:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But why retire the F22 and not the 15 or 16? What is the point of the billions spent when the only answer is that you can upgrade the F16 and not the F22. Then inst the F22 a useless endeavor It's a dead-end as far as technology goes, but we don't have a single stealth fighter beyond the F35 that could provide vital air-to-air ability currently. I imagine the F22 will only be in inventory for another 10-20 years. But then the military has a hard time getting rid of aircraft sometimes : Look at how many want to retain the (Insert any fighter in inventory now). Edit : I pulled the Air Force's numbers, for the cost of sustaining the F22 through 2030 and some upgrades (Stealth external fuel tanks + sensor upgrades) the cost is around $9 billion. The alternative would be buying another 120 F35s. So, what would be the better fiscal policy? 150 F22 raptors by 2030 or another 120 F35s with better capabilities? |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:26:51 PM EDT
[#3]
Who’s retiring what? The NDAA said otherwise…
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:29:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a dead-end as far as technology goes, but we don't have a single stealth fighter beyond the F35 that could provide vital air-to-air ability currently. I imagine the F22 will only be in inventory for another 10-20 years. But then the military has a hard time getting rid of aircraft sometimes : Look at how many want to retain the (Insert any fighter in inventory now). Edit : I pulled the Air Force's numbers, for the cost of sustaining the F22 through 2030 and some upgrades (Stealth external fuel tanks + sensor upgrades) the cost is around $9 billion. The alternative would be buying another 120 F35s. So, what would be the better fiscal policy? 150 F22 raptors by 2030 or another 120 F35s with better capabilities? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: But why retire the F22 and not the 15 or 16? What is the point of the billions spent when the only answer is that you can upgrade the F16 and not the F22. Then inst the F22 a useless endeavor It's a dead-end as far as technology goes, but we don't have a single stealth fighter beyond the F35 that could provide vital air-to-air ability currently. I imagine the F22 will only be in inventory for another 10-20 years. But then the military has a hard time getting rid of aircraft sometimes : Look at how many want to retain the (Insert any fighter in inventory now). Edit : I pulled the Air Force's numbers, for the cost of sustaining the F22 through 2030 and some upgrades (Stealth external fuel tanks + sensor upgrades) the cost is around $9 billion. The alternative would be buying another 120 F35s. So, what would be the better fiscal policy? 150 F22 raptors by 2030 or another 120 F35s with better capabilities? It’s a dead end? Seems to be the opposite…you know, since the DoD is willing to forego 120 airframes for the F-22 combat fleet. It’s like, maybe there’s something unique about it. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:29:42 PM EDT
[#5]
I understand the F35 is superior to the 22 in every imaginable way. The F22 was the leap forward from the F17, which was another questionable use of tax pay dollars, but it just appears to retire it now, is premature. It didn’t see combat, was built for an enemy that didn’t exist, and was doomed to an early retirement from the start.
It filled a role that didn’t exist and was built to deter an enemy that wasn’t there. If anything other was true, it would have multiple kills and be in multiple conflicts. The F18 is being used my USN and USMC with great results. The USAF developed and built the F22 with no real fruit. Only to create a different airframe that appeases all branches. I love the F22 and am saddened to see it come to such an early demise |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:30:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand the F35 is superior to the 22 in every imaginable way. The F22 was the leap forward from the F17, which was another questionable use of tax pay dollars, but it just appears to retire it now, is premature. It didn’t see combat, was built for an enemy that didn’t exist, and was doomed to an early retirement from the start. It filled a role that didn’t exist and was built to deter an enemy that wasn’t there. If anything other was true, it would have multiple kills and be in multiple conflicts. The F18 is being used my USN and USMC with great results. The USAF developed and built the F22 with no real fruit. Only to create a different airframe that appeases all branches. I love the F22 and am saddened to see it come to such an early demise Again, who’s retiring what? Go read the NDAA… |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:30:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F22 appears to be the only who hast had a chance to shine. We are selling more aF35s than we are keeping. That is not the case with F22 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There's nothing wrong with the Raptor. It is a technologocal marvel that has yet to be surpassed. Unfortunately politics and spiraling costs of the JSF/F35 made it look expensive and impractical. It's still a great fighter and yet another in our history of good air frames that never got a chance to shine. The F22 appears to be the only who hast had a chance to shine. We are selling more aF35s than we are keeping. That is not the case with F22 IIRC the F22 contract was awarded right before USSR fell...so in the years following right when production was starting, we found out we didn't need as many, orders progressively cut increasing unit costs. IMO-Sunk costs kept the program alive as long as it was, probably also the thought the R&D and tech can trickle down to other weapon systems. When the tooling was retired and stored=lack of parts and the high cost to maintain/fly for so few planes probably put it high on the list of things to retire. F16 and F15 production IIRC is still going so parts are going to be available for those even if they are older. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:35:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand the F35 is superior to the 22 in every imaginable way. The F22 was the leap forward from the F17, which was another questionable use of tax pay dollars, but it just appears to retire it now, is premature. It didn't see combat, was built for an enemy that didn't exist, and was doomed to an early retirement from the start. It filled a role that didn't exist and was built to deter an enemy that wasn't there. If anything other was true, it would have multiple kills and be in multiple conflicts. The F18 is being used my USN and USMC with great results. The USAF developed and built the F22 with no real fruit. Only to create a different airframe that appeases all branches. I love the F22 and am saddened to see it come to such an early demise "Every imaginable way"? I don't believe that's correct. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:35:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, who’s retiring what? Go read the NDAA… It is literally hanging on by a shoestring and hardly justifiable when compared to the F16 being in widespread use by the ANG. It will be surpassed by the F35 as in a year or two in the NDAA. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:36:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, who’s retiring what? Go read the NDAA… It's sustained till 2030. It'd take time to build more F35s, and we've already got ~180 F22s, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. When 2030-2040 rolls around then it might be a situation where we've got plenty of F35s, and we start retiring the F22, F15 and so on. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:40:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is literally hanging on by a shoestring and hardly justifiable when compared to the F16 being in widespread use by the ANG. It will be surpassed by the F35 as in a year or two in the NDAA. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Again, who’s retiring what? Go read the NDAA… It is literally hanging on by a shoestring and hardly justifiable when compared to the F16 being in widespread use by the ANG. It will be surpassed by the F35 as in a year or two in the NDAA. A shoestring? No, not at all. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:41:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Every imaginable way"? I don't believe that's correct. The only place the f22 really wins out is dogfighting. I know I'll get an f4 vietnam response but we don't really need a dogfighter. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:47:04 PM EDT
[#13]
F22 was not a failure. It just never had a peer to beat, and we'll have something better by the time it's actually phased out.
It was the ultimate (Soviet) cold war aircraft, but the cold war ended before it was fielded. Hopefully the fighter designed to counter the Chinese threat is as successful as the Raptor was. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:49:11 PM EDT
[#14]
You’re comparing apples to oranges.
It comes down to the right tool for the right job. If you need something to carry a fuck-ton of bombs, you have a B-52. It’s capabilities have been upgraded over the years. The current H models are way more capable than the D’s. The F-22 is an air superiority fighter. It’s the best at what it does. They are retiring the old Block 20s that can’t be upgraded to match needed capabilities needed. The other fighters are still around because they can be upgraded and retrofitted in a cost-effective enough manner for their roles. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:55:33 PM EDT
[#15]
This ttead makes my head hurt, its like arguing with a gun grabber and they say something about an ar47, you just dont want to argue with someone who knows nothing about the subject. Wtf is an f17?
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Posted: 12/12/2023 11:59:10 PM EDT
[#16]
No real combat? So Syria and Afghanistan don’t count? I guess our nuclear arsenal is a failure also because we don’t use it. Some of the most effective weapons never have to be deployed. F-22 is one of those. Its use in combat was limited but it has proven to be highly effective in combat. Our enemies have been scared shitless of it for 26 years. Nothing matches it or comes close. It has paved the way for even more advanced fighter technology.
Not a failure at all. It is a resounding success. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 12:00:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obama killed the program. It's kind of hard to have iterative improvement when the program is shut down and so few were made it doesn't make much sense to spend a bundle developing those upgrades for so few aircraft. If the line had kept going I imagine it would be that much more capable today. Obama didn’t kill it. Robert Gates did. Let’s lay the blame where it belongs. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 12:21:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why retire it and not the F16? Quote HistoryQuoted: Why retire it and not the F16? We have retired hundreds of F16’s and F15’s. The airframes only last so long. They were replaced with new aircraft. It’s not like they are flying planes made in the 1970’s. It’s a 50 year old design, not 50 year old equipment. In fact, you can find dozens of the older ones in aircraft museums and on display. The Air Force no longer purchases F16’s and is phasing them out as the F35 comes online. Same will happen to the F15 as the NGAD comes online at the end of this decade. No new F22’s are in production so it will leave service sooner. I don’t agree with the termination of the F22 program, but the newer F15 variants did not leave us at a disadvantage. The F15 was and still is the best air superiority fighter on the planet next to the F22. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 12:24:28 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is your answer to my question. An insult instead of answering a very direct question. No wonder our schools our producing graduates who cannot write, not read genius. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Failure, not fail. No wonder our schools are producing “graduates” who cannot read. That is your answer to my question. An insult instead of answering a very direct question. No wonder our schools our producing graduates who cannot write, not read genius. I think he means if you bothered to research and read up on the history of various US aircraft in service, you wouldn’t be asking such repetitive questions and engaging in circular reasoning. He’s right. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 12:28:05 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This, basically. The answer to a problem that doesn't exist. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They were made to fight a fictional peer enemy. They were really good at it. This, basically. The answer to a problem that doesn't exist. Nuclear powers don't fight wars. Most expensive Balloon kill in history. Airspace is used for nothing but transportation. The concept of air dominance is outdated and stupid after the advent of accurate long range missiles. Arnold understood that. Nearly 100 years later, only the US is dumb enough to invest in manned fighters and bombers. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 12:31:24 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nuclear powers don't fight wars. Not yet. You just need the right pack of douchenozzles in charge of one and then it's off to the races! As for the F-22. I'm of the view that its one of the finest things ever created by the hand of man. A mechanical masterpiece along the lines of a state of the art nuclear power plant or the paintings of Da Vinci. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 12:49:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was thinking F17. It is hard to keep track of the fails that costs billions versus the successes that costs millions Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Anytime. I was thinking F17. It is hard to keep track of the fails that costs billions versus the successes that costs millions The F17 the design that became the F18 or did you mean the F117? |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 1:30:52 AM EDT
[#23]
The F22 was too much of a success. It was created to fight a superpower that declined into oblivion. It was an expensive short run aircraft, that was too costly to produce.
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Posted: 12/13/2023 1:51:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But why retire the F22 and not the 15 or 16? What is the point of the billions spent when the only answer is that you can upgrade the F16 and not the F22. Then inst the F22 a useless endeavor If I remember right , the Muslim loving president cancelled it |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 1:57:25 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am sorry I meant B52s which are substantially older, but good scape goat around main question |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:03:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: B17s in service? So is a Sopwith Camel But it isn't seeing combat, is it? 
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:04:24 AM EDT
[#27]
As a side note , I would love to see what has been in development in the the last 15-20 years and what is currently flying around . The future will be unmanned planes imo . No g-force worries for humans or multi -million $$$ in pilot training . Of course , I’m just regular Joe but I believe the USA has some incredible aircraft that the public has no idea about . I remember when the f-117 debuted , i was blown away back then .
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:06:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the bigger question is, can we keep our own government in line enough so it's not used on us? There's some pretty scary shit out there with FBI Carnivore and GORGON STARE which are being used domestically. We've effectively defeated the enemy without fighting, so now we need to find uses for the technology at home to serve the interests of lobbying. SPOT ON!!! Our evil pedo globalist elites are interested in power, and they'll do ANYTHING to keep and magnify it. If they decided that they were in danger of a French Revolution here, they would scorch every bit of American earth that they felt they needed to do the job. But they may not need to do that, since they're importing millions of people to do it for them. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:09:27 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand the F35 is superior to the 22 in every imaginable way. The F22 was the leap forward from the F17, which was another questionable use of tax pay dollars, but it just appears to retire it now, is premature. It didn't see combat, was built for an enemy that didn't exist, and was doomed to an early retirement from the start. It filled a role that didn't exist and was built to deter an enemy that wasn't there. If anything other was true, it would have multiple kills and be in multiple conflicts. The F18 is being used my USN and USMC with great results. The USAF developed and built the F22 with no real fruit. Only to create a different airframe that appeases all branches. I love the F22 and am saddened to see it come to such an early demise |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:09:31 AM EDT
[#30]
It is a fantastic fighter but Congress doomed it when they funded so few. Parts are getting scarce and maintaining them is skyrocketing. It's replacement is just around the corner.
https://ts2.space/en/the-u-s-air-force-prepares-to-sunset-the-f-22-raptor/#gsc.tab=0 |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:11:05 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NGADs are obsolete. How many trillions does the USAF need to spend on R&D with no real results since the F18. Compared to other military weapon systems that are actually practical and have real world application. "Ummmm...F-18's...Air Force...?" "Forget it, he's rolling!" |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:14:07 AM EDT
[#32]
HAHA!
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:16:44 AM EDT
[#33]
Op: herp derp the marines used the Ah47 Apache for ground attack in the Vietnam war.
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Posted: 12/13/2023 3:15:57 AM EDT
[#34]
Nope. Raptor did exactly what it needed to for the last 20 years, and will continue to for quite some time into the future.
For what a leap in capability it is from even the best 4th Gen fighters, it was a massive success in every single way. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 4:06:14 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F22 was never for export. Its hard to know how its been used but I imagine it does a lot of things that we don't hear about. Things change and capabilities evolve. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The F22 appears to be the only who hast had a chance to shine. We are selling more aF35s than we are keeping. That is not the case with F22 The F22 was never for export. Its hard to know how its been used but I imagine it does a lot of things that we don't hear about. Things change and capabilities evolve. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3288543/f-22-safely-shoots-down-chinese-spy-balloon-off-south-carolina-coast/ |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 4:14:30 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think the F-22 is going anywhere anytime soon. The USAF is currently making a Franken Raptor to get another F-22 in the air. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Hill-AFB-Restoring-an-F-35A-Lightning-II-A-collaborative-endeavor/5-2691761/ https://media.defense.gov/2023/Nov/30/2003353595/1200/1200/0/230811-F-F3495-1004.JPG Um. That's an F-35. Says so right in the original thread. And the linked article. And the photos. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 4:21:17 AM EDT
[#37]
The F22 is one of the finest fighters ever built. Equal to the P51, F86, etc.
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Posted: 12/13/2023 4:22:01 AM EDT
[#38]
lol, the F-22 is not retiring. no time soon for sure. It was not a failure either. Just because we built a badass plane doesnt stop us from building a better one, such as the F-35. we are already looking ahead of that also.
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Posted: 12/13/2023 4:34:33 AM EDT
[#39]
F-22 has seen more weapons usage against hostiles than F-35.
F-22 was state-of-the-art, one-of-a-kind, both MTD and instrument of a superpower. To call it a massive fail is a huge misunderstanding of the bureaucratic dissention that took place during the 'Bama admin because of conflicting DoD contractors' war on the Hill to greedily support themselves instead of keeping weapon, part, and maintenance support costs low. As a result, it was shelved (ergo, all further production halted) indefinitely and the JSF thusly took centerstage. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 4:45:11 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it is a cost versus actual world world use scenario, so the billions spent on the F22 was nothing more than an R&D project? The F16 is far older than F22, so wouldn’t the parts issue be more of detriment compared to the F22? From a fiscal standpoint, there is no real practical scenario in which the existence of the F22 makes sense. The F16 is far older, but still makes more of fiscal standpoint than the far newer and more technologically advanced airframe. From a numbers point if the view, the F22 only exists for R&D. Two problems. The F22 is expensive to fly. We're buying more F16s so that F22 pilots can have something else to fly on the side. We aren't selling F22s. F16 parts aren't a problem because they're still being produced for export. F16s are improving because they're still being produced for export. We can order replacement F16s because they're still being produced for export. The F22 production lines are gone because export was not permitted and we cancelled all remaining orders. This more than anything else is the "problem" with the F22. Should we have shared them? Or is the F22 just too good to allow anyone else to have them? It is essential for any complex military system that production is maintained. That means regular.ongoing orders from us or export sales. There's a reason we order a few extra M1s every year. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 6:27:02 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why retire it and not the F16? Because thousands of F16 have been produced and upgraded over the years to be more capable and are, generally, fairly reliable. On the other hand the F22 while amazing in terms of tech was, as I understand it, a nightmare in terms of maintenance that made a large fraction not airworthy at any given time. A weapons system that isn't usable also isn't very effective. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 6:47:20 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They really ought to retire those B17's. B-17 would be pretty effective against Hamas. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 7:12:56 AM EDT
[#43]
Fascinating article argues that with the traditional 'air superiority fighter' no longer makes sense, and that the future of air superiority is more like a B21 then a F22.
Advancements in stealth, networked sensors, very long range missiles negate the advantages of aircraft speed and manuevarability, while the very long distances involved in fighting China in the Pacific means that traditional fighter jets just dont have the range needed. https://csbaonline.org/uploads/documents/Air-to-Air-Report-.pdf    |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 8:27:08 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But why retire the F22 and not the 15 or 16? What is the point of the billions spent when the only answer is that you can upgrade the F16 and not the F22. Then inst the F22 a useless endeavor Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's a GREAT fighter. However what's happened is there's been quite a few breakthroughs in the past ~20yrs, along with the understanding that modularity and upgradability are absolutely vital for weapons systems (Look at the F15, F16 & F18's longevity). We found out for the most part that stealth is HARD to make, and due to that the F22 wasn't made to be easily upgradable, so we came out with the F35 that fixes virtually everything in that regard (And the B21 is the F35 of the bomber world). I LOVE, LOVE , LOVE the F22 along with the X-23 it went up against. We though are at a point where China & Russia are spending some coin getting Americans to hate the military, along with military procurement methods, making them all look useless, expensive projects with no value. The reality is that the US military, at least as far as these weapon systems goes, are getting so far advanced that it'll be near impossible for anyone to catch up. *If* the B21 is able to be fitted with (And I think it is) a "Air battleship" setup, then if a war happened with China, you could see the US military potentially take down every fighter & Bomber they have in the span of a single day. There's been leaks, videos, and hastily deleted posts showing that these systems are getting to the point that we can engage enemy fighters and bombers at 300% farther ranges then they can engage us at......even if they could see our stealth systems. But why retire the F22 and not the 15 or 16? What is the point of the billions spent when the only answer is that you can upgrade the F16 and not the F22. Then inst the F22 a useless endeavor Fighter aircraft are not designed for duplicate missions. There is naturally some overlap, but there are wide swaths where they specialize and can't compete. They are not interchangeable. Plus, it's not about dog fights. The F-22 was fielded in numbers too small to support. Like it or not, the program was extremely late to schedule and severely over budget, and was just about ready for prime time when the program was cancelled by socialists that weren't interested in continuing the never ending over run when there were cool social programs clamoring for the budget. LM and the Air Force pulled off a clever scam on the taxpayer by putting airplanes in service too early that were not capable of flying over hostile beaches in an attempt to make the project appear on schedule. Hence the huge fraction of the fleet that is good for barely more than currency flying. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 9:49:39 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fighter aircraft are not designed for duplicate missions. There is naturally some overlap, but there are wide swaths where they specialize and can't compete. They are not interchangeable. Plus, it's not about dog fights. The F-22 was fielded in numbers too small to support. Like it or not, the program was extremely late to schedule and severely over budget, and was just about ready for prime time when the program was cancelled by socialists that weren't interested in continuing the never ending over run when there were cool social programs clamoring for the budget. LM and the Air Force pulled off a clever scam on the taxpayer by putting airplanes in service too early that were not capable of flying over hostile beaches in an attempt to make the project appear on schedule. Hence the huge fraction of the fleet that is good for barely more than currency flying. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's a GREAT fighter. However what's happened is there's been quite a few breakthroughs in the past ~20yrs, along with the understanding that modularity and upgradability are absolutely vital for weapons systems (Look at the F15, F16 & F18's longevity). We found out for the most part that stealth is HARD to make, and due to that the F22 wasn't made to be easily upgradable, so we came out with the F35 that fixes virtually everything in that regard (And the B21 is the F35 of the bomber world). I LOVE, LOVE , LOVE the F22 along with the X-23 it went up against. We though are at a point where China & Russia are spending some coin getting Americans to hate the military, along with military procurement methods, making them all look useless, expensive projects with no value. The reality is that the US military, at least as far as these weapon systems goes, are getting so far advanced that it'll be near impossible for anyone to catch up. *If* the B21 is able to be fitted with (And I think it is) a "Air battleship" setup, then if a war happened with China, you could see the US military potentially take down every fighter & Bomber they have in the span of a single day. There's been leaks, videos, and hastily deleted posts showing that these systems are getting to the point that we can engage enemy fighters and bombers at 300% farther ranges then they can engage us at......even if they could see our stealth systems. But why retire the F22 and not the 15 or 16? What is the point of the billions spent when the only answer is that you can upgrade the F16 and not the F22. Then inst the F22 a useless endeavor Fighter aircraft are not designed for duplicate missions. There is naturally some overlap, but there are wide swaths where they specialize and can't compete. They are not interchangeable. Plus, it's not about dog fights. The F-22 was fielded in numbers too small to support. Like it or not, the program was extremely late to schedule and severely over budget, and was just about ready for prime time when the program was cancelled by socialists that weren't interested in continuing the never ending over run when there were cool social programs clamoring for the budget. LM and the Air Force pulled off a clever scam on the taxpayer by putting airplanes in service too early that were not capable of flying over hostile beaches in an attempt to make the project appear on schedule. Hence the huge fraction of the fleet that is good for barely more than currency flying. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:10:07 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: The military has F15s, F16s, F18s fighter jets still in service. The military still has B2s, B52s and other bombers in service. The F22 has never seen any real combat, costs billions in tax payer money, and is now in the crosshairs for being retired. I always thought they were impressive and an incredible feat in aerospace engineering. Why the retirement so early in its career versus so many other airframes? I am just a dumb grunt. Yes, well you obviously don't know how the Military Industrial Compl.... er "freedom" works brah.... Umm...other than planes flying during Vietnam, what other planes in USAF have seen "real combat"??? ok, some beat up on a collapsed Yugoslavia during a civil war...again not "real combat", like saying Mike tyson beating the shit out of a 5 year old is a "real boxing match" |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:11:45 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then why the F35? Why retire the F22 when F16 are still in widespread use? What sense does that make? Did F22 destroy itself With budget versus actual use? Radar technology also advances so the stealth characteristics that are integral to a design may suffer reduced effectiveness. Combine these two factors and there is a case to retire expensive platforms and build a new one. Plus NGAD seems to be well on its way in development, gotta fee up that cash flow somehow. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:19:36 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fascinating article argues that with the traditional 'air superiority fighter' no longer makes sense, and that the future of air superiority is more like a B21 then a F22. Advancements in stealth, networked sensors, very long range missiles negate the advantages of aircraft speed and manuevarability, while the very long distances involved in fighting China in the Pacific means that traditional fighter jets just dont have the range needed. Article written by a former RF-4 back-seater who has some serious deficiencies in his understanding of a bunch of things. Bomb truck has never been an idea that had merit among people who actually understand missile kinematics, and that launch aircraft speed and altitude are a key portion of it. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:21:10 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand the F35 is superior to the 22 in every imaginable way. The F22 was the leap forward from the F17, which was another questionable use of tax pay dollars, but it just appears to retire it now, is premature. It didn't see combat, was built for an enemy that didn't exist, and was doomed to an early retirement from the start. It filled a role that didn't exist and was built to deter an enemy that wasn't there. If anything other was true, it would have multiple kills and be in multiple conflicts. The F18 is being used my USN and USMC with great results. The USAF developed and built the F22 with no real fruit. Only to create a different airframe that appeases all branches. I love the F22 and am saddened to see it come to such an early demise Technology/sensors the F35 is the clear winner. This is where modularity is a big deal, the 22 is hard to upgrade. The other thing you have to recognize is that we are having this discussion using limited knowledge. We don't know what is in development or the scope of capabilities avaliable for the next fighter. I suspect if we did we'd all be OK with the F22 being retired. Say what you will about .mil procurement, they don't often buy less capable replacements. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:21:42 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: was just about ready for prime time when the program was cancelled by socialists that weren't interested in continuing the never ending over run when there were cool social programs clamoring for the budget. Or, alternately, the Army Chief of Staff was in SECDEF Gates' office daily complaining that the USAF wasn't giving him enough Predators. |
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