[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What Happened with the P320 Scandal? (Page 2 of 3)
| PROTIP: if you own a 320 over a year without it going off by itself at least once, you aren’t handling it enough. Random discharges are a natural part of carrying 320s, just like tweaking your back is part of weightlifting and car accidents are part of driving. I randomly shoot my floor several times a year because I actually carry my SIGs. It makes me a better firearms handler and marksman, and it’s a small part of the price you pay in the sheepdog lifestyle Simple fact is, the “safe firearm mentality” will build mental blocks in your head that will get you killed. You need to be comfortable with your gun going off wherever you are no matter the time, place, or status of the weapon. Taking time to examine what's wrong with the gun will serve to make you hesitate in a personal defense scenario. You fucking safety idiots are going to get people killed all because of this fucking “a gun should only discharge when you pull the trigger” shaming. Guns are inherently dangerous, you need to accept it. |
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Quoted: It’s still a fundamentally flawed handgun of poor mechanical design and irresponsible design philosophy. SIG would lose too much money if they admitted it is a problem, so they won’t. Just typing things doesn’t make it true. Explain what makes the pistol flawed, how it is a poor or irresponsible design. Be sure to clearly explain how these claims directly result in discharges. Then demonstrate a discharge actually occurring. Ideally you would show how it is repeatable, because design flaws and mechanical problems persist. They don’t just happen once and then cannot ever be recreated. Tell ya what. I know you can’t because no one can. But you keep blathering on about things you probably don’t even understand. Because if you did understand them, you’d wouldn’t be blathering on. If you don’t like SIG, fine. Don’t buy one. I hate Springfield, they’re a garbage company, I won’t spend money to support the frauds. If you don’t think it’s worth risking your poor handling skills resulting in an ND, there’s tons of other options; buy something else. But it does no one any good to spread BS and try to ruin one of the few innovators in the firearm industry. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think we should try to cover up legitimate problems. If there is a problem, we should call attention to it. The drop issue with the P320 is a good example. There was a legit issue and it needed to be addressed. But blaming the pistol for this is actually covering up the legitimate problem, which is poor handling skills. The end users need to be held accountable for their negligence, but instead are given a scapegoat. It’s a complete disservice. |
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Quoted: One in a billion would be a million guns having one UD every 1000 days. Seemingly the risk is higher than one in a billion. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What's an acceptable number of holes in your leg? Everything you own has acceptable limits or else we'd never use them. Electrical appliances catch fire, vehicles malfunction causing crashes, ammo misfires, etc. What are the odds of one properly maintained unmodified P320 carried correctly going off today? Probably one in a billion or less? One in a billion would be a million guns having one UD every 1000 days. Seemingly the risk is higher than one in a billion. Not everyone carries a gun in a holster all day. Minority of the total amount. Most stay in a closet unloaded. Could be more, I dunno. But guns going off are probably still very rare over the past 10 years it was produced and we're talking about just the gun, not user or holster issues. |
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Quoted: What are the odds of an M9 firing by itself? Quoted: Quoted: Everything you own has acceptable limits or else we'd never use them. Electrical appliances catch fire, vehicles malfunction causing crashes, ammo misfires, etc. What are the odds of one properly maintained unmodified P320 carried correctly going off today? Probably one in a billion or less? With the safety off and hammer back in the holster equivalent to the condition of a Sig P320? I dunno but I'm sure it's happened. |
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I never really carried mine much except when hiking. Haven't carried it in a while, but I have a pile of handguns so that's not really abnormal. The stories mean I probably won't be revisiting that anytime soon though. I can easily see how the narrow trigger guard and no physical trigger safety could increase the likelihood of an ND. I only carry mine in Bladetech kydex and I installed an Agency Arms drop in trigger with a dingus. Nice trigger and a little peace of mind when I did carry it. I do still shoot it fairly regularly, but outside of range time it's unloaded in the safe. |
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Quoted: Is there any fix for whatever the fuck is wrong with these things? I have an X ten that I haven't even shot yet. Which kinda sucks. It's the best feeling pistol I've ever owned. The damn thing feels perfect in my hands. |
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Quoted: Just typing things doesn’t make it true. Explain what makes the pistol flawed, how it is a poor or irresponsible design. Be sure to clearly explain how these claims directly result in discharges. Then demonstrate a discharge actually occurring. Ideally you would show how it is repeatable, because design flaws and mechanical problems persist. They don’t just happen once and then cannot ever be recreated. Tell ya what. I know you can’t because no one can. But you keep blathering on about things you probably don’t even understand. Because if you did understand them, you’d wouldn’t be blathering on. If you don’t like SIG, fine. Don’t buy one. I hate Springfield, they’re a garbage company, I won’t spend money to support the frauds. If you don’t think it’s worth risking your poor handling skills resulting in an ND, there’s tons of other options; buy something else. But it does no one any good to spread BS and try to ruin one of the few innovators in the firearm industry. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think we should try to cover up legitimate problems. If there is a problem, we should call attention to it. The drop issue with the P320 is a good example. There was a legit issue and it needed to be addressed. But blaming the pistol for this is actually covering up the legitimate problem, which is poor handling skills. The end users need to be held accountable for their negligence, but instead are given a scapegoat. It’s a complete disservice. Somehow I knew you’d be here. |
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Quoted: He committed suicide a couple weeks later. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Given the Airman in question is dead, I don't think his defense counsel will bother. They article 15'd a dead airman? That is an opb bullet. He committed suicide a couple weeks later.  What a tragedy all around. |
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Quoted: As culpable as Sig might be, you are all still buying them. Stop bitching about sig already if its so minor you carry one anyway lol. Arfcom: "OMGWTFBBQ Sig lobbiest!" Also Arfcom: "More, daddy sig!" If you’re not drunk, please let us know if you’re smelling burnt toast. |
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Quoted: Somehow I knew you’d be here. Quoted: Quoted: Just typing things doesn’t make it true. Explain what makes the pistol flawed, how it is a poor or irresponsible design. Be sure to clearly explain how these claims directly result in discharges. Then demonstrate a discharge actually occurring. Ideally you would show how it is repeatable, because design flaws and mechanical problems persist. They don’t just happen once and then cannot ever be recreated. Tell ya what. I know you can’t because no one can. But you keep blathering on about things you probably don’t even understand. Because if you did understand them, you’d wouldn’t be blathering on. If you don’t like SIG, fine. Don’t buy one. I hate Springfield, they’re a garbage company, I won’t spend money to support the frauds. If you don’t think it’s worth risking your poor handling skills resulting in an ND, there’s tons of other options; buy something else. But it does no one any good to spread BS and try to ruin one of the few innovators in the firearm industry. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think we should try to cover up legitimate problems. If there is a problem, we should call attention to it. The drop issue with the P320 is a good example. There was a legit issue and it needed to be addressed. But blaming the pistol for this is actually covering up the legitimate problem, which is poor handling skills. The end users need to be held accountable for their negligence, but instead are given a scapegoat. It’s a complete disservice. Somehow I knew you’d be here. And also.......this |
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Quoted: Yep Quoted: Quoted: Seems like it petered out after that shitbag airman at FEWAFB was fiddling around with his 320 and shot his buddy, then tried blaming the pistol. Yep Details here. |
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Quoted: Texas DPS is still using them. Troopers and Rangers I've spoken to have no complaints. Small sample size obviously. Houston PD has declared them to be prohibited as a duty pistol. My brother had to replace his with something else. He's going with a Smith M&P 2.0 with a red dot. I have a P229 and a P365. There i enough doubt out there about the P320 that is isn't on my list of new buys. |
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Quoted: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/CD5B1B69-9216-403B-9358-C05A3A07987F-482.gif Just here for the purse swinging 
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It’s fairly obvious at Sig that the marketing guys get paid first. The engineers get paid last. Probably after the janitor. That is if the engineers even speak English. Even if the 320 was a safe pistol, I still wouldn’t buy their trash. You can spot their shtick from a million miles away. Every podcast bro who sold their soul is out there shilling for them. |
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Quoted: Over one million in circulation, how many UDs have occurred? I guess nothing to see, move along. |
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Quoted: It's been a while since I've heard anything. Is everyone still selling their P320's? Any new accidental/negligent/uncommanded discharges? Any conclusions? Did the internet stop caring? Bidnesses as usual, my friend. All is well. SIG sez so. Shops in my area still have them on the shelves. Anyone buying? Dunno. Not my department. |
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Quoted: It’s fairly obvious at Sig that the marketing guys get paid first. The engineers get paid last. Probably after the janitor. That is if the engineers even speak English. Even if the 320 was a safe pistol, I still wouldn’t buy their trash. You can spot their shtick from a million miles away. Every podcast bro who sold their soul is out there shilling for them. Stop inventing nonsense to justify your irrational Sig hate. Sig has pushed more innovation than any of the other big gun manufacturers out there - they were the big name behind pistol braces and modular fire control groups, they tried an end run around silencers, they designed the M7/M8/M250 family with an all-new high velocity cartridge (which is a major engineering achievement despite how much the internet loves to hate on it), and they're one of the few companies selling silencers, optics, and ammo in addition to guns. But I guess all that is just marketing shtick? PSA churning out another budget AR and Glock clone is obviously a far more innovative and engineering focused company, right? |
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Quoted: Stop inventing nonsense to justify your irrational Sig hate. Sig has pushed more innovation than any of the other big gun manufacturers out there - they were the big name behind pistol braces and modular fire control groups, they tried an end run around silencers, they designed the M7/M8/M250 family with an all-new high velocity cartridge (which is a major engineering achievement despite how much the internet loves to hate on it), and they're one of the few companies selling silencers, optics, and ammo in addition to guns. But I guess all that is just marketing shtick? PSA churning out another budget AR and Glock clone is obviously a far more innovative and engineering focused company, right? Quoted: Quoted: It’s fairly obvious at Sig that the marketing guys get paid first. The engineers get paid last. Probably after the janitor. That is if the engineers even speak English. Even if the 320 was a safe pistol, I still wouldn’t buy their trash. You can spot their shtick from a million miles away. Every podcast bro who sold their soul is out there shilling for them. Stop inventing nonsense to justify your irrational Sig hate. Sig has pushed more innovation than any of the other big gun manufacturers out there - they were the big name behind pistol braces and modular fire control groups, they tried an end run around silencers, they designed the M7/M8/M250 family with an all-new high velocity cartridge (which is a major engineering achievement despite how much the internet loves to hate on it), and they're one of the few companies selling silencers, optics, and ammo in addition to guns. But I guess all that is just marketing shtick? PSA churning out another budget AR and Glock clone is obviously a far more innovative and engineering focused company, right? Modular fire control groups have been around for decades in pistols. I'll grant, SIG was the 1st company to introduce randomness into a modular fire control group. |
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Quoted: Stop inventing nonsense to justify your irrational Sig hate. Sig has pushed more innovation than any of the other big gun manufacturers out there - they were the big name behind pistol braces and modular fire control groups, they tried an end run around silencers, they designed the M7/M8/M250 family with an all-new high velocity cartridge (which is a major engineering achievement despite how much the internet loves to hate on it), and they're one of the few companies selling silencers, optics, and ammo in addition to guns. But I guess all that is just marketing shtick? PSA churning out another budget AR and Glock clone is obviously a far more innovative and engineering focused company, right? Quoted: Quoted: It’s fairly obvious at Sig that the marketing guys get paid first. The engineers get paid last. Probably after the janitor. That is if the engineers even speak English. Even if the 320 was a safe pistol, I still wouldn’t buy their trash. You can spot their shtick from a million miles away. Every podcast bro who sold their soul is out there shilling for them. Stop inventing nonsense to justify your irrational Sig hate. Sig has pushed more innovation than any of the other big gun manufacturers out there - they were the big name behind pistol braces and modular fire control groups, they tried an end run around silencers, they designed the M7/M8/M250 family with an all-new high velocity cartridge (which is a major engineering achievement despite how much the internet loves to hate on it), and they're one of the few companies selling silencers, optics, and ammo in addition to guns. But I guess all that is just marketing shtick? PSA churning out another budget AR and Glock clone is obviously a far more innovative and engineering focused company, right? They didn't invent pistol braces, they ripped off the original SB designs and put cheap knockoff parts on their guns. Likewise, they didn’t invent modular frames, they just were the first big name to push them on a large scale. The M7/M8 is a wildly stupid infantry weapon for current battlefields, and likely to quietly die off in the next few years. Their "end run around" on silencers failed to pass ATF muster, so no grand win there. As for companies selling guns, optics, silencers, and ammo...woo hoo. Their ammo isn’t anything remarkable (but it is pricey). Their optics line is decent, their silencers are okay but not exceptional. Their goal is to take as much market share of the shooting industry as possible, but their business practices are frequently shitty, and center on marketing uber alles. They cut whatever corners they can, have a long history of QC problems, and fail to support their products beyond the first several years. Sig uses customers as beta testers, and then dumps a product line as soon as it starts to become mature - because their focus is on selling This Week's New Hot Cool Gun via expending truckloads of cash into their marketing budget. The result is a company that sells everything, but can't be trusted where it counts: to deliver a long-term reliable product with dedicated support. |
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Quoted: Stop inventing nonsense to justify your irrational Sig hate. Sig has pushed more innovation than any of the other big gun manufacturers out there - they were the big name behind pistol braces and modular fire control groups, they tried an end run around silencers, they designed the M7/M8/M250 family with an all-new high velocity cartridge (which is a major engineering achievement despite how much the internet loves to hate on it), and they're one of the few companies selling silencers, optics, and ammo in addition to guns. But I guess all that is just marketing shtick? PSA churning out another budget AR and Glock clone is obviously a far more innovative and engineering focused company, right? Quoted: Quoted: It’s fairly obvious at Sig that the marketing guys get paid first. The engineers get paid last. Probably after the janitor. That is if the engineers even speak English. Even if the 320 was a safe pistol, I still wouldn’t buy their trash. You can spot their shtick from a million miles away. Every podcast bro who sold their soul is out there shilling for them. Stop inventing nonsense to justify your irrational Sig hate. Sig has pushed more innovation than any of the other big gun manufacturers out there - they were the big name behind pistol braces and modular fire control groups, they tried an end run around silencers, they designed the M7/M8/M250 family with an all-new high velocity cartridge (which is a major engineering achievement despite how much the internet loves to hate on it), and they're one of the few companies selling silencers, optics, and ammo in addition to guns. But I guess all that is just marketing shtick? PSA churning out another budget AR and Glock clone is obviously a far more innovative and engineering focused company, right? (Looks at state) Found the marketing guy… I mean all that stuff is great. You guys still released a striker pistol designed this century that went off when dropped. When that came to light, rather than simply owning the fuckup your CEO said, and I quote… “Drop safe — Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.” Which is the biggest gaslight I’ve ever seen come out of a CEO’s mouth. Every other modern striker fired pistol (Glock, M&P, etc) is 100% drop safe and he knows it. Then, instead of issuing a recall, they announced a “voluntary upgrade.” None of that “innovation” means shit when you knowingly release an unsafe pistol to market, one that likely has more than one UD issue to boot. My point still stands. All that stuff is whiz bang stuff that isn’t really necessary. It’s not really innovation, it’s marketing. You guys mostly stole those ideas from others and slapped your name on it. The Sig cross is a copy and paste from Q. Bi-metal cases existed for decades before the .277 fury. Sig just sold the idea to generals (and it’s so far been a disaster that the end users hate.) When you knowingly release unsafe products and can’t issue a proper recall for a known safety issue, you care more about marketing than your product. |
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Quoted: Everything you own has acceptable limits or else we'd never use them. Electrical appliances catch fire, vehicles malfunction causing crashes, ammo misfires, etc. What are the odds of one properly maintained unmodified P320 carried correctly going off today? Probably one in a billion or less? No several of the agencies have tested every one in their possession. They were seeing about 3% had enough play to get to go off pretty easily. That guy that was testing them had several and only 1 was easy to get to go off with playing with the slack in the trigger. So somewhere between 3 and 30% 
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Quoted: I never really carried mine much except when hiking. Haven't carried it in a while, but I have a pile of handguns so that's not really abnormal. The stories mean I probably won't be revisiting that anytime soon though. I can easily see how the narrow trigger guard and no physical trigger safety could increase the likelihood of an ND. I only carry mine in Bladetech kydex and I installed an Agency Arms drop in trigger with a dingus. Nice trigger and a little peace of mind when I did carry it. I do still shoot it fairly regularly, but outside of range time it's unloaded in the safe. I think the lack of a trigger safety, as found in just about every other modern striker fired handgun could be a large contributor to Sig-cidents. With a Glock, M&P, XD / XDM, RXM and others, even putting an object in the trigger guard is very unlikely to overcome the trigger safety and cause a unintended firing. The 320 lacks that important safety feature. |
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Quoted: I saw they filed an updated patent, but did anyone actually confirm they implemented a change? To answer OP, nothing. The 320 is still a POS I've noticed sales picking back up, so it does seem that it's drifting out of the public consciousness. I think people conflate the latest issues with the initial drop failures of 2017. They've heard "there's a fix" and assume it's for these recent discharges. In fact, SIG has yet to admit there's a problem with pre-late 2017 320s. There's a reason it's called a Voluntary Upgrade. Funny enough, both SIG, and it's biggest sycophant Grey Guns, will not work on a 320 that hasn't had the update. Despite also parroting the line in 2017 that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the gun, supposedly Bruce Grey had already filed for a patent on a new trigger for the 320, a patent that suspiciously looked like the upgraded parts SIG ended up putting in their 320s. The issues with the guns going off now is a separate issue that I feel may actually be a result of the upgrade. We already know that springs have been slipping out of position and going missing. In my opinion, the gun is an overcomplicated design, with minimal engagement surfaces, with parts farmed out to a 3rd world country. There is simply no reason to buy a 320 when there is a dozen other designs that don't have the risk. Even a 365. |
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Quoted: It’s a mediocre gun that isn’t worth the hassle. With better platforms to choose from, from better companies, this thing is irrelevant no matter how you look at it. It may shoot you. It may not. Regardless, better options exist. This. Besides I'm already invested in Glock not interested in another platform unless it's miles ahead of Glock at the same price point. |
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Quoted: PROTIP: if you own a 320 over a year without it going off by itself at least once, you aren’t handling it enough. Random discharges are a natural part of carrying 320s, just like tweaking your back is part of weightlifting and car accidents are part of driving. I randomly shoot my floor several times a year because I actually carry my SIGs. It makes me a better firearms handler and marksman, and it’s a small part of the price you pay in the sheepdog lifestyle Simple fact is, the “safe firearm mentality” will build mental blocks in your head that will get you killed. You need to be comfortable with your gun going off wherever you are no matter the time, place, or status of the weapon. Taking time to examine what's wrong with the gun will serve to make you hesitate in a personal defense scenario. You fucking safety idiots are going to get people killed all because of this fucking “a gun should only discharge when you pull the trigger” shaming. Guns are inherently dangerous, you need to accept it. Hahaha, thank you. This reminds me of the dozen plus times I have heard some idiot say "if you have laid down your motorcycle at least once you arent really riding." |
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It's funny really, Wilson Combat is having a fire sale on their overpriced 320s. $1470 guns they can't move at $590. Sure are proud of their 365s as well. Custom Sigs |
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Someone finally got around to actually reading their operator's manual where SIG actually admits it unsafe to have a round chambered before being ready to fire it. Carry gun that is not safe with one in the chamber is a big "NO" for most people. Probably okay if you're one of those types who insist carrying without one in the chamber, regardless....or if just having it as a range toy. Never forget: "It eNDs today." |
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Quoted: It’s a mediocre gun that isn’t worth the hassle. With better platforms to choose from, from better companies, this thing is irrelevant no matter how you look at it. It may shoot you. It may not. Regardless, better options exist. Heh. If the fucking thing might shoot me, I'll probably pursue said better options. I don't understand why anyone would want a P320. |
| Other than the "drop" issue, personally, I think the biggest issue with the P320 was short trigger pull. It is one of it's greatest attributes and problems. It is a smooth, light pull but for my taste, a little too short before you hit the wall. Many have said if there was a "dingus" in the trigger, like on a Glock, there would be no issues. I don't know if that is true but I think it would help. I like mine and have it in a Flux unit and really like it. I appreciate the manual safety on the Raider, as it is in the perfect spot for it-like a 1911 and have no issue carrying it with one in the chamber. |