What Is So Bad About A Chicken-Wing Shooting Position? - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What Is So Bad About A Chicken-Wing Shooting Position? (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:22:47 AM EST

Aside from the many high-speed operators (aka fat fuck couch commandos) on ARFCOM that need to worry about hitting their elbow on doorways, what's so bad about a chicken-wing position of shooting?

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:23:50 AM EST

[#1]

Nothing. It's proper form for accurate rifle fire. A lot of people don't know any better and like to blab on and make themselves look stupid. Personally, I let them go right on ahead.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:25:30 AM EST

[#2]

I am double jointed in my shoulders, so I shoot with a slight chicken wing, it is far more comfortable to me, especially when I was wearing PASGT or MOPP

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:26:07 AM EST

[#3]

Whatever works.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:27:04 AM EST

[#4]

I'm just going to copypasta my post from the other thread...

The entire stance of a target shooter is different from practical or defensive shooting. Leaning back for proper weapon balance is important for target shooting. Leaning forward for improved recoil control in follow-up shots is more important for practical shooting. Target shooters also tend to shoot more across the body than directly in front of it. The differences in the rest of the stance can affect strong arm positioning.

I have been told that bringing your strong arm down (when in a practical-type stance) provides a more stable platform and improves recoil control for rapid-fire. Intuitively, this makes perfect sense - bringing your arms into the body, as much underneath and behind the rifle as possible, would seem to provide stability since everything is in tight together.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:27:16 AM EST

[#5]

In competition it is proper. In shooting around barricades it makes it more likely to be shot in the arm. People whine about being told either. You can do what ever you want, right or wrong for the situation.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:27:48 AM EST

[#6]

I don't know about you but it isn't very natural for me with a pistol grip. Keeping my elbow down allows for a much more natural alignment of my wrist/ forearm.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:28:00 AM EST

[#7]

The supposed disadvantage is that going down halls and through door ways, it can hit the walls.

But for many years, the US Army taught that very position for standing rifle fire. It gives a nice, positive shoulder pocket for the rifle butt.

Not nearly as big of a deal as many seem to think it is.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:30:55 AM EST

[#8]

Not a damned thing.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:33:10 AM EST

[#9]

I keep chicken wing the hell out of a shotgun or larger rifle....

any other rifle I try to keep the wings tucked in...seems to be a much more stable stance for me....

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:33:19 AM EST

[#10]

Quoted:
The supposed disadvantage is that going down halls and through door ways, it can hit the walls.

But for many years, the US Army taught that very position for standing rifle fire. It gives a nice, positive shoulder pocket for the rifle butt.

Not nearly as big of a deal as many seem to think it is.

I still use it for my wing shooting. I learned that way when I was 6, and I'm successful enough to not feel I need to change.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:34:05 AM EST

[#11]

I like wings.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:35:30 AM EST

[#12]

I tend to use it... except when we do room clearing. That's bout the only exception.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:36:54 AM EST

[#13]

Nothing wrong with it if you aren't getting shot at.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:37:10 AM EST

[#14]

as said proper form for wingshooting
hell some guys raise it above their shoulders

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:37:43 AM EST

[#15]

You gotta use the right stance for the right situation.

16" M4-type carbine with a short stock, close range shooting: elbows down, buttstock inboard on your chest/collarbone, squared up to the target

Heavy .300 win mag rifle, long range shot: elbow up, buttstock in your shoulder pocket, slightly bladed stance

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:40:36 AM EST

[#16]

Nothing at all if you want to hit targets at longer ranges accurately.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:43:38 AM EST

[#17]

Never having had any proper training Ive always naturally tucked my arms into my body

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:43:53 AM EST

[#18]

Nothing. It's not tacticool though. I do it when I miss something with my first shot-mostly out of habit..

Doesn't matter if you hold it like a freaking squirt gun provided you hit what you're shooting at.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:43:53 AM EST

[#19]

Only draw back I can think of is that it can get tiresome to hold out for a long period of time....

So basicly NOTHING is wrong with it....

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:45:32 AM EST

[#20]

R. Lee Ermey has one hell of a chicken wing, at least when shooting an AK. Seems to suit him just fine.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:45:56 AM EST

[#21]

who cares!!

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:53:05 AM EST

[#22]

I've been shooting since I was 6 or 7. When I was 17 I was taught how to shoot by the Marine Corps. In boot camp they stress not to use the chicken wing... So I don't. The explanation is that to continually remain accurate, the best positions are those which do not require a lot of muscle. You want your body structure to support the weapon, not muscle. When you chicken wing, you're unnecessarily using a bunch of muscle and energy to keep your elbow up in your shooting position. You tire out quicker and your accuracy will suffer. When you're in a proper off hand stance, the elbows remain under the weapon and close to the body. The bones in your arm and torso support the vast majority of the weight.

It makes sense to me and I like it. So I do it. If you don't like it... Don't do it.

Posted: 6/21/2009 11:54:33 AM EST

[#23]

Quoted:
R. Lee Ermey has one hell of a chicken wing, at least when shooting an AK. Seems to suit him just fine.

I have the same "problem" with an AK. Short stock+monkey arms=chicken wing

Posted: 6/21/2009 12:09:29 PM EST

[#24]

All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

Posted: 6/21/2009 12:23:07 PM EST

[#25]

Getting shot in the elbow doesn't sound like much fun either, it makes you a slightly smaller target.

Posted: 6/21/2009 12:30:12 PM EST

[#26]

Quoted: So I don't. The explanation is that to continually remain accurate, the best positions are those which do not require a lot of muscle.

Exactly. You can brace the weight of the gun onto your body and onto the gear you're wearing.

Posted: 6/21/2009 12:37:14 PM EST

[#27]

I like the "chicken wing" for traditional target-type shooting, especially with single-shot or repeating rifles. I find I am actually more accurate when "chicken winging" for slow-fire target shooting.

The main reason it has fallen into disuse amongst tactically-minded shooters is because it is not the most stable shooting position for shooting rapid-fire with semi-autos and full-autos.

Both are correct. Just two different shooting positions for two different types of shooting.

Posted: 6/21/2009 1:53:55 PM EST

[#28]

Current doctrine amongst those who actually get shot at and who actually pull the trigger to dispatch bad guys is to keep the elbows down and use the rifle in a more Isosceles-style shooting. This mandates the use of a much shorter fixed stock or an adjustable stock set at the position closes to the receiver.

By keeping the arms tucked in tight, you create a firing platform with suitable stability, but with a much smaller target area for the bad guys. Simple adage: think small, be small.

I learned about chicken wings from my father, career military and a member at one time of the Air Force rifle team. He'd also seen action in Southeast Asia and in Central America. It worked for him. I thought it worked for me.

The first time I went to the range with my son after his first deployment to Iraq, he was using the non-chicken wing style. I looked at him and said, "THAT'S not now I taught you to shoot a rifle." He looked at me and said, "Yeah, but you never taught me how to avoid getting shot by some foul-smelling Muslim cocksucker with a piece of shit rifle and a lucky shot."

His mother said, "Watch your language." To whit, he replied, "Sorry, Mom."

I replied, "show me how to do that right." I've been using it ever since. So has his Mom.

We'll take advice over someone who has faced the elephant on three tours and returned with a respectable body count over a chicken-winger posting here who hasn't. Hell, maybe when my Dad comes up here next summer we can convert him.

Posted: 6/21/2009 1:55:27 PM EST

[#29]

Quoted:
Aside from the many high-speed operators (aka fat fuck couch commandos) on ARFCOM that need to worry about hitting their elbow on doorways, what's so bad about a chicken-wing position of shooting?

It makes armchair warriors have coronaries.

Really that is all it is, a way of protecting the elbow when moving in tight confines. Otherwise it is fine.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:01:23 PM EST

[#30]

Quoted:
Current doctrine amongst those who actually get shot at and who actually pull the trigger to dispatch bad guys is to keep the elbows down and use the rifle in a more Isosceles-style shooting. This mandates the use of a much shorter fixed stock or an adjustable stock set at the position closes to the receiver.

By keeping the arms tucked in tight, you create a firing platform with suitable stability, but with a much smaller target area for the bad guys. Simple adage: think small, be small.

I learned about chicken wings from my father, career military and a member at one time of the Air Force rifle team. He'd also seen action in Southeast Asia and in Central America. It worked for him. I thought it worked for me.

The first time I went to the range with my son after his first deployment to Iraq, he was using the non-chicken wing style. I looked at him and said, "THAT'S not now I taught you to shoot a rifle." He looked at me and said, "Yeah, but you never taught me how to avoid getting shot by some foul-smelling Muslim cocksucker with a piece of shit rifle and a lucky shot."

His mother said, "Watch your language." To whit, he replied, "Sorry, Mom."

I replied, "show me how to do that right." I've been using it ever since. So has his Mom.

We'll take advice over someone who has faced the elephant on three tours and returned with a respectable body count over a chicken-winger posting here who hasn't. Hell, maybe when my Dad comes up here next summer we can convert him.

It has nothing to do with "doctrine."

It is technique.

The tucked in position is a luxury of modern low recoil weapons. When it works, it works. I don't recommend it if you have to do snap shooting with an M24. You might just find there is a time and a season for everything.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:02:10 PM EST

[#31]

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I think you got it backwards.

I have NEVER seen anyone here or elsewhere condemn somebody for tucking in their elbow.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:05:28 PM EST

[#32]

Quoted:
I've been shooting since I was 6 or 7. When I was 17 I was taught how to shoot by the Marine Corps. In boot camp they stress not to use the chicken wing... So I don't. The explanation is that to continually remain accurate, the best positions are those which do not require a lot of muscle. You want your body structure to support the weapon, not muscle. When you chicken wing, you're unnecessarily using a bunch of muscle and energy to keep your elbow up in your shooting position. You tire out quicker and your accuracy will suffer. When you're in a proper off hand stance, the elbows remain under the weapon and close to the body. The bones in your arm and torso support the vast majority of the weight.

It makes sense to me and I like it. So I do it. If you don't like it... Don't do it.

This is the correct answer. Use the bones for support not the muscles. It alows you to hold the position longer without fatigue as well.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:07:10 PM EST

[#33]

THE ANSWER

It's a target of opportunity (for the bad guy) that doesn't need to be...

Let's say, you're shooting round a corner.. if you're in a HABIT of going high power syle and "chicken winging" here's what will happen.

Your "vitals" will be a very small target... from the BG's perspective.

But look, he sees a big fucking elbow to shoot at...

Bad guy will shoot at said big fucking elbow, which will fucking hurt by the way.

It's retarded in "combat" shooting, for "competition", it's fine. But if you have any incination to use a firearm in defense, it is stupid as you are ingraining a bad habit...

And honestly, posting pics of soldiers from "line" units doesn't prove shit...

One can find pics of soldiers doing all kinds of retarded shit that will get you killed in combat...

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:14:11 PM EST

[#34]

My wife does the chicken wing. I don't care as long as she goes to the range with me.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:16:09 PM EST

[#35]

Quoted:
Nothing. It's proper form for accurate rifle fire. A lot of people don't know any better and like to blab on and make themselves look stupid. Personally, I let them go right on ahead.

This.

It's something people can throw out so they can act holier than thou. Just like the clip vs mag idiots.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:28:18 PM EST

[#36]

Quoted:
THE ANSWER

It's a target of opportunity (for the bad guy) that doesn't need to be...

Let's say, you're shooting round a corner.. if you're in a HABIT of going high power syle and "chicken winging" here's what will happen.

Your "vitals" will be a very small target... from the BG's perspective.

But look, he sees a big fucking elbow to shoot at...

Bad guy will shoot at said big fucking elbow, which will fucking hurt by the way.

It's retarded in "combat" shooting, for "competition", it's fine. But if you have any incination to use a firearm in defense, it is stupid as you are ingraining a bad habit...

And honestly, posting pics of soldiers from "line" units doesn't prove shit...

One can find pics of soldiers doing all kinds of retarded shit that will get you killed in combat...

It is not necessarily a combat versus competition thing. Tucking in the elbow, along with other techniques that are common in CQB weapons manipulation, is simply a luxury allowed by SOME modern firearms, where little serious attention needs to be paid to the pocket of the shoulder. Try some of that modern CQB shit with a weapon with kick, and you might find out those old guys did things for a reason.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:30:03 PM EST

[#37]

Tag for later.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:31:28 PM EST

[#38]

Chicken winging makes it easier for you to whack your elbow on cover or when coming around a corner. Plus it exposes more of your body to the target/suspect when slicing the pie.

Whereas there is no real disadvantage to having your elbow down.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:31:37 PM EST

[#39]

I guess when people start shooting back at me at the range I'll stop doing it. Until then I will keep on keepin on.

I'll also find a new range.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:39:31 PM EST

[#40]

Have any of you experts ever shot skeet?

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:41:28 PM EST

[#41]

Because when you are driving the rifle from target to target or around corners, you want your mass to be as compact as possible to reduce your moment of inertia. Tucking in also shortens the lever arm distance to the grip for more efficient force transfer when pivoting. I also grip with my support hand on the side of the forearm (not on the bottom like Clint Eastwood has above) for more direct leverage, though this has more to do with how the tendons and pectoralis muscles are arranged than physics.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:45:36 PM EST

[#42]

Quoted:
Have any of you experts ever shot skeet?

Hell, I'm curious as to how many have ever shot a rifle with recoil, let alone a shotgun. Or, even an assault rifle at moving targets.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:46:19 PM EST

[#43]

Quoted:
Current doctrine amongst those who actually get shot at and who actually pull the trigger to dispatch bad guys is to keep the elbows down and use the rifle in a more Isosceles-style shooting. This mandates the use of a much shorter fixed stock or an adjustable stock set at the position closes to the receiver.

By keeping the arms tucked in tight, you create a firing platform with suitable stability, but with a much smaller target area for the bad guys. Simple adage: think small, be small.

I learned about chicken wings from my father, career military and a member at one time of the Air Force rifle team. He'd also seen action in Southeast Asia and in Central America. It worked for him. I thought it worked for me.

The first time I went to the range with my son after his first deployment to Iraq, he was using the non-chicken wing style. I looked at him and said, "THAT'S not now I taught you to shoot a rifle." He looked at me and said, "Yeah, but you never taught me how to avoid getting shot by some foul-smelling Muslim cocksucker with a piece of shit rifle and a lucky shot."

His mother said, "Watch your language." To whit, he replied, "Sorry, Mom."

I replied, "show me how to do that right." I've been using it ever since. So has his Mom.

We'll take advice over someone who has faced the elephant on three tours and returned with a respectable body count over a chicken-winger posting here who hasn't. Hell, maybe when my Dad comes up here next summer we can convert him.

^^^THIS^^^
Theres a good reason the military brainwashes us into shooting that way ( I already tucked my arm before I joined...beside the point). You tuck your arm for a more stable shooting platform and when holding a rifle on target for very long periods its just more comfortable. Now when shooting a weapon with a full length stock it may be unavoidable to chickenwing if you dont have freakishly long arms. If you tuck your arm with a weapon that has alot of recoil it can pinch and leave nasty bruises.
When shooting a tactical rifle = no chicken. Long gun/ turkey gun = chicken...at least for ME thats how it is.

BUT as said in previous posts. Whatever works for you. If your comfortable shooting and are hitting your target then dont change what your doing.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:50:32 PM EST

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Have any of you experts ever shot skeet?

Hell, I'm curious as to how many have ever shot a rifle with recoil, let alone a shotgun. Or, even an assault rifle at moving targets.

Benelli 12 gauge with 3 1/2" mags count? Because I shoot that with elbow down as well. Isosceles stance. Recoil is better managed in that stance. Shooting skeet would be different considering you are leading and overhead shot.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:52:11 PM EST

[#45]

Works for me,

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:54:35 PM EST

[#46]

Depends on what I am doing, and what I am shooting. A low recoil rifle, non-chicken wing. Comes from my competitive rifle days. Less fatigue holding that elbow up leads to less movement in the rifle while standing.

High recoil rifle that I won't be holding up for a while, I chicken wing it. But that only really applies to me with a hunting rifle. Hunting rifles have longer stocks and no pistol grip. My target rifles did, and so do AR's (bringing me to my next point).

Shooting an AR, I don't chicken wing, as there isn't really a point. It produces more fatigue to chicken wing it, the stock is adjustable (I keep mine short, even though I have long arms, so my arms naturally tuck for me). Short stock also allows me to keep the rifle closer to my body as well as an over all shorter length without loosing barrel length (sorry, I WILL NOT get a barrel under 16", not because of ATF, but because the velocity drop is not acceptable to me...and having a 14.5" barrel is not worth the hassle of ATF). And I find it is more stable to boot.

IMHO, the chicken wing stance was a product of the weapon being employed. Look at the stocks on the older rifles. No pistol grip, longer, and not adjustable. Easier to get a proper grip on those in the chicken wing stance. With the AR, chicken wing does not provide any benefits, and does increase fatigue.

If it provided me with a benefit, I would do it. It just doesn't with a modern pistol-gripped rifle. You are most stable when you are most at rest. Tucked elbows is more stable because you are most at rest (that is, unless you are squeezing them into your fat roll). It is that simple.