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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:43:16 PM EDT
...and instead received generational upgrades? Pretty interesting YouTube video discussing Gruman's planed upgrades and a 5th Gen "What if?" mock up. Do you all think the airframe could've been improved or ultimately did the US Navy make the right call with the F-18 series? Additionally, do you think the 5th Gen "What if?" variant could match the stealth profile of the F-22/35 with it's swing-wing design, or is that a stealth deal-breaker?
 The Ultimate Tomcat! Super Tomcat 21 and 22 | Inspired from the #F106 Delta Dart & F-18 HARV |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:48:40 PM EDT
[#1]
The Turkey was a DOG!
Super Hornet is a much more versatile aircraft. The mission the Tomcat was created for is long gone. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:49:42 PM EDT
[#2]
While cool, it’s an old airframe.
And costs would be much higher than proposed. I’m aware our fleets were a little more vulnerable without the F14. But the F-35 is light years ahead of the F14. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:49:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Then the entire ''Maverick'' movie would have been filled with them.
It was a compromise airframe and those tend to not do anything really well, just some things ''OK.'' |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 12:57:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was a compromise airframe and those tend to not do anything really well, just some things ''OK.'' Are you talking about the f14 or the f35? 
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:07:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you talking about the f14 or the f35? Well, if there ever was a "compromise" category, the F-35 fits squarely in it. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:12:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Turkey was a DOG! Super Hornet is a much more versatile aircraft. The mission the Tomcat was created for is long gone. Its an antiquated aircraft but It’s mission is becoming relevant again right meow. I think the US made a mistake by moving away from specialization in favor of one size fits all equipment. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:16:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its an antiquated aircraft but It’s mission is becoming relevant again right meow. I think the US made a mistake by moving away from specialization in favor of one size fits all equipment. Agree 100% |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:16:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: ...and instead received generational upgrades? Pretty interesting YouTube video discussing Gruman's planed upgrades and a 5th Gen "What if?" mock up. Do you all think the airframe could've been improved or ultimately did the US Navy make the right call with the F-18 series? Additionally, do you think the 5th Gen "What if?" variant could match the stealth profile of the F-22/35 with it's swing-wing design, or is that a stealth deal-breaker?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfxVneeVyKMIt would still be a maintenance nightmare! |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:25:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would still be a maintenance nightmare! So I heard. Namely the that swing-wing frame IIRC. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:30:56 PM EDT
[#10]
A modernized F-14 would be cool, and a re-design to get rid of the analogue components and hydraulics with modern stuff would have done wonders for it's reliability and maintenance time. They can hold a ton of stuff and take it a pretty long distance. The size is both a benefit and a hinderance. It takes up a lot more space than other fighters on the carrier, but the size allows it to carry more fuel and a massive radar for long-range scanning and engagement.
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:31:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I heard. Namely the that swing-wing frame IIRC. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It would still be a maintenance nightmare! So I heard. Namely the that swing-wing frame IIRC. I watched the f14 tomcast series on youtube and that specific question came up and the guys that flew it on there said the variable wings surprisingly weren’t that big of a problem but that it had other issues that required high maintenance. Obviously im not a pilot or maintainer so i’m just taking their word for it, but they inferred it was a common misconception. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:31:46 PM EDT
[#12]
If you guys are basing on the A model, that was a monster to work on. The PW TF30 was never a match for the frame. It was stuck on there because of the F-111B development.
The F110 engines made the aircraft way better. To me, if the planed future upgrade to bring the E model with newer avionics and possibly the last new engine model would made the aircraft a world beater. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:34:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I heard. Namely the that swing-wing frame IIRC. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:35:32 PM EDT
[#14]
 The McDonnell Douglas F-15N Sea Eagle; Tomcat Rival What if, what if, what if... What if 600 years from now there are companies that make replicas of current fighter aircraft for civilian use. Kinda like how some people own P-51s and F4U’s today. What if there is a big demand for Tomcats, but F-22s are much easier to build. So some company essentially makes a tomcat-raptor hybrid? By that point it would be obsolete as a frontline weapon system. But it could be fun to race them on the weekends.
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:35:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Best fleet defender of the 1970s, but that's it.
Modern upgrades? It isn't like every single F-14 thread in GD in the last 5-10 years hasn't addressed this very topic, so yeah a relevant question. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:36:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I watched the f14 tomcast series on youtube and that specific question came up and the guys that flew it on there said the variable wings surprisingly weren't that big of a problem but that it had other issues that required high maintenance. Obviously im not a pilot or maintainer so i'm just taking their word for it, but they inferred it was a common misconception. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It would still be a maintenance nightmare! So I heard. Namely the that swing-wing frame IIRC. I watched the f14 tomcast series on youtube and that specific question came up and the guys that flew it on there said the variable wings surprisingly weren't that big of a problem but that it had other issues that required high maintenance. Obviously im not a pilot or maintainer so i'm just taking their word for it, but they inferred it was a common misconception. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:38:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Aren't they still, to this day, some of the fastest, top speed-wise, fighters/attack/whatever you wanna call em mil aircraft ever developed?
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:39:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: wouldnt the leading edge slats and such move the platform toward not needing to extend the wings? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So I heard. Namely the that swing-wing frame IIRC. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:50:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aren't they still, to this day, some of the fastest, top speed-wise, fighters/attack/whatever you wanna call em mil aircraft ever developed? The video in the OP is alright, but trying to turn the F-14 into a steal aircraft is the wrong way to think about it. A modern stealth plane will always be better at stealth than a pre-stealth design regardless of upgrades/alterations. Better to keep the F-14 as a high-performance fighter/interceptor and let stealth planes do stealth things. I'm fond of these videos for their approach to what could have been for the F-14 had it been modernized.  Here's Why We Didn't Get the Super Tomcat-21 and Why That Was a Mistake  The F-14 we would still be flying today ETA: If anyone wants a ST21 Tomcat picture for their desktop background, this is my favorite [link since the image I uploaded isn't coming through at full resolution: http://www.artstation.com/artwork/e0rPXP , my favorite is the 3rd image] |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 1:56:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aren't they still, to this day, some of the fastest, top speed-wise, fighters/attack/whatever you wanna call em mil aircraft ever developed? Yes, they had a very high top speed. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:10:03 PM EDT
[#21]
If it had received upgrades akin to the Hornet and super Hornet - as in complete clean sheet design while only retaining basic form and model designation - it would likely be the most potent carrier based strike asset in service. Costly as hell, and would be a bitch to maintain in another 20 years (but what airframe isn’t). I’m imagining capabilities similar to a current production FMS Mud Hen (-15I/S/SG) while having a lower RCS and, you know, that whole landing on a boat deal.
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:12:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, they had a very high top speed. A slightly more accurate line from TGM. “Can we outrun these guys?” “Actually, yes! But not their missiles and guns.” 
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:14:15 PM EDT
[#23]
Not this shit again.
All because of that one fucking movie…. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:16:32 PM EDT
[#24]
We could give them to Ukraine
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:21:19 PM EDT
[#25]
The problem with trying to make a stealth fighter is the intake. Jet engines are highly reflective on radar and thus need to be hidden, especially from the frontal aspect. A stealth tomcat would need S shaped intakes to be low observable at least. The YF-23 has a similar engine layout and had this problem, it had a angle which the jet engines were picked up. It would've required a redesign had they gone into production and was one of the reasons the F-22 was picked.
 These intakes simply wouldn't work for LO. 
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:22:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem with trying to make a stealth fighter is the intake. Jet engines are highly reflective on radar and thus need to be hidden, especially from the frontal aspect. A stealth tomcat would need S shaped intakes to be low observable at least. The YF-23 has a similar engine layout and had this problem, it had a angle which the jet engines were picked up. It would've required a redesign had they gone into production and was one of the reasons the F-22 was picked. https://media.defense.gov/2022/Feb/01/2002931129/2000/2000/0/220201-F-ZS999-003.PNG These intakes simply wouldn't work for LO. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/F-14_bottom_view_with_wings_forward.jpg This pisses me off. I wish so bad we could’ve also had the F23 |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:23:32 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not this shit again. All because of that one fucking movie…. It’s a fun mental exercise, try to enjoy it. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:26:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Long Island's aerospace industry would still be having a major impact on our economy.
There was a time when almost every other car you saw in any parking lot had an "Anytime, Baby" sticker on it. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:29:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A slightly more accurate line from TGM. “Can we outrun these guys?” “Actually, yes! But not their missiles and guns.” Yeah. Top speed isn't everything |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:31:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a fun mental exercise, try to enjoy it. Growling Sidewinder has had a fun series on the Tomcat. Granted it's DCS but he does well to explain things compared to real life or explain the initial conditions of the scenario |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 2:35:41 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 5/20/2023 3:07:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not this shit again. All because of that one fucking movie…. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/hes_right_you_know-328.jpg  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 3:17:38 PM EDT
[#33]
For as thoroughly f'd up as the DoD's acquisitions process is and has been, at least it isn't run by fanboys making decisions based on 80s movie fandom or "brrrrrrrt" or the relative "it looks cool" merits of the fly-odd contenders.
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Posted: 5/20/2023 3:21:28 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, if there ever was a "compromise" category, the F-35 fits squarely in it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are you talking about the f14 or the f35? Well, if there ever was a "compromise" category, the F-35 fits squarely in it. "If those posters could think independently they would be very upset." 
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Posted: 5/20/2023 4:02:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This pisses me off. I wish so bad we could've also had the F23 |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 4:08:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We should have built 500+ of each, and then maybe 2 versions of the F35. You’ll get 187 F-22s and 3 F-35 variants with 30% parts commonality and like it. That’s more than enough to run roughshod over a bunch of Iron Age goat herders. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 4:14:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’ll get 187 F-22s and 3 F-35 variants with 30% parts commonality and like it. That’s more than enough to run roughshod over a bunch of Iron Age goat herders. Who wouldn't get run over by the F-22 and F-35 fleets? |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 4:33:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who wouldn't get run over by the F-22 and F-35 fleets? For now? Probably nothing. Not even the Chinese Air Force or several combined European Air forces. But you never know what the future is going to bring. Personally I’m more concerned about budget cuts and manpower shortages than some new King Kong of air power emerging out of nowhere. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 5:54:58 PM EDT
[#39]
I wish they had kept a couple going for air shows. Just for the sound.
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Posted: 5/20/2023 6:07:04 PM EDT
[#40]
At some point you need to start from the ground up. There's only so much you can cram into an old airframe.
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Posted: 5/20/2023 6:07:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For now? Probably nothing. Not even the Chinese Air Force or several combined European Air forces. But you never know what the future is going to bring. Personally I’m more concerned about budget cuts and manpower shortages than some new King Kong of air power emerging out of nowhere. Yep, also considering that several of those European Air Forces are also flying F-35s that integrate with ours, Japanese "helicopter destroyers" will be coming online, and allies (Korea, Turkey, and some sort of Euro collab) are building 5th/ish Gen fighters I think we're in a good spot. I think we'd be in a better spot if we built more Raptors and sold them to Japan, South Korea, UK, AUS, and maybe Poland but we can't change time. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 6:36:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not this shit again. All because of that one fucking movie…. Two movies 
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Posted: 5/20/2023 6:37:17 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not this shit again. All because of that one fucking movie…. Two movies https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bi6IrXNnSK0/maxresdefault.jpg 
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Posted: 5/20/2023 9:26:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who wouldn't get run over by the F-22 and F-35 fleets? This is all just supposition, and I am definitely not an expert, but I think most people seem to seriously underestimate just how much better our military/equipment is than everyone else’s. I don’t want us to get in a no shit shooting war with China, but there is a part of me that would at least like to see us absolutely crush their military in short order just to prove a point. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 9:41:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three...  The Final Countdown (1980) - "Splash the Zeros" |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 9:54:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is all just supposition, and I am definitely not an expert, but I think most people seem to seriously underestimate just how much better our military/equipment is than everyone else’s. I don’t want us to get in a no shit shooting war with China, but there is a part of me that would at least like to see us absolutely crush their military in short order just to prove a point. The biggest thing is experience. Our dudes are out there getting time against the best in the world. China and Russia are training with Syria, Belarus and themselves. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 10:06:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Too bad we don’t have any left in the boneyard, we could send them to Ukraine.
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Posted: 5/20/2023 10:19:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At some point you need to start from the ground up. There's only so much you can cram into an old airframe. Uh, B-52J would like a word... ETA: Oh, and F-15EX is next in line. ETA2: The last new-build F-14D entered service in 1992, so was a relatively new aircraft when Tomcats were retired in 2006. |
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Posted: 5/20/2023 10:23:55 PM EDT
[#49]
America’s navy rules the oceans by dominating the high ground. Been that way for a while now. I really dug the F-14, like the Super Bug even more, but my all time favorite USN fighter is a bit more nostalgic…..
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Posted: 5/20/2023 10:27:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, B-52J would like a word... ETA: Oh, and F-15EX is next in line. ETA2: The last new-build F-14D entered service in 1992, so was a relatively new aircraft when Tomcats were retired in 2006. BOOMHeadshot.jpg |
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