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Posted: 8/1/2022 9:53:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Truth... if you have to stop a charging Kodiak, this is what you need: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570540tech.html It will break anything and go through anything. Now, if you're hunting and you have a guide carrying something big, sure, have at it with whatever you guys are talking about. But don't kid yourself, you need big, heavy and a large flat meplat to consistently crack skulls, break shoulders and penetrate from any angle. 45 70 lever gun ain't it. |
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Posted: 8/1/2022 9:58:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same as hunting dangerous game in africa. It seems like there is a lot of overlap. To reliably stop a bear will require a structural breakage like a3 shoulder, or central nervous system hit, or mass ive blood loss which usually requires some time. I don't know where the cut off is in calibers between "good enough to break bones" vs "probably won't break bones". But I'm kind of thinking somewhere around .35 caliber and 200 grains with some speed. I'd prefer to not find out I'm wrong. 338wm still fits perfectly |
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Posted: 8/1/2022 10:11:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The first goal is to find a semiauto rifle that will work reliably for defense against bear. If that factor is met and there are multiple options, the goal would be a rifle that is flexible, carryable, prefer box magazine. If a bone crusher is the only choice, then the rifle will not work very well for other stuff just like a double rifle, basically. I doubt a suitable bear rifle will be well suited for 400 yard shots on deer. But if one rifle will do both, then cool. Might as well pick the one that will do both. It looks to me that a rifle that can make accurate repeat shots would be a a good priority. I'm not confident a little .223 is going to do much very fast. I think the .358 winchester in a semi auto might be big enough while also being shootable. And lighter bullets would give it some range. I think something like a .458 win mag would be more difficult to shoot fast and also would have limited range. But if nothing short of a .458 win mag will stop a bear, then that's just the way it is. Fish and game say shot placement is a lot more important than caliber. But I don't know. I'm asking just for the sake of conversation. But this conversation is starting to make me think I should buy something even though I don't need it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What kind of range you planning to shoot at? The first goal is to find a semiauto rifle that will work reliably for defense against bear. If that factor is met and there are multiple options, the goal would be a rifle that is flexible, carryable, prefer box magazine. If a bone crusher is the only choice, then the rifle will not work very well for other stuff just like a double rifle, basically. I doubt a suitable bear rifle will be well suited for 400 yard shots on deer. But if one rifle will do both, then cool. Might as well pick the one that will do both. It looks to me that a rifle that can make accurate repeat shots would be a a good priority. I'm not confident a little .223 is going to do much very fast. I think the .358 winchester in a semi auto might be big enough while also being shootable. And lighter bullets would give it some range. I think something like a .458 win mag would be more difficult to shoot fast and also would have limited range. But if nothing short of a .458 win mag will stop a bear, then that's just the way it is. Fish and game say shot placement is a lot more important than caliber. But I don't know. I'm asking just for the sake of conversation. But this conversation is starting to make me think I should buy something even though I don't need it. You have me curious because I would have guess that a 458 Win Mag would have a similar trajectory to a 358 Win. This I found pretty quickly but I bet if you really compared a variety they'd surprise you  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/1/2022 10:15:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How true. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: eta: An avid hunter of Admiralty Island brown bear (he lived to be 95) once told me that there is a difference between killing a bear and stopping it. To stop it, you need to break a shoulder because that's where its strength and speed reside. Killing a bear can take time, because sometimes the bear doesn't yet know that you have killed it. Sounds like my friend in Juneau. I ended up with a pair of his 700's one in 458 and one in 375. The 375 was for hunting and the 458 was for when it went wrong. Really wish I still had those. |
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Posted: 8/1/2022 10:21:13 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 8/1/2022 11:15:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same as hunting dangerous game in africa. It seems like there is a lot of overlap. To reliably stop a bear will require a structural breakage like a shoulder, or central nervous system hit, or massive blood loss which usually requires some time. I don't know where the cut off is in calibers between "good enough to break bones" vs "probably won't break bones". But I'm kind of thinking somewhere around .35 caliber and 200 grains with some speed. I'd prefer to not find out I'm wrong. There are some safari hunters here that will know, but I think most African countries have caliber requirements for most game. Medium bores, .35 are minimums for some game. Bog bores, .416s and bigger for others. One of the best “hunt the world” cartridges is the 375 H&H. Most of the venerable belted magnums we used are based on that case. I really do like the 35 Whelen though. It shoots well at modest ranges, light recoil like a 30-06, and hits like freight train. Plus, it’s affordable. Where a box of premium 375 is $100 or more, most premium 35 Whelen is $40 or so. |
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Posted: 8/1/2022 11:17:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think people overestimate how many accurate rounds they can get off in a charge. A double rifle might even be sufficient. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd rather be able to put a lot of decent rounds on target quickly if your talking about self defense from bears and not hunting. Give me some decently hot .308 in a 20rd mag from a 16" AR10 with a decent quick acquisition optic. I think people overestimate how many accurate rounds they can get off in a charge. A double rifle might even be sufficient. |
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Posted: 8/1/2022 11:18:20 PM EDT
[#8]
45 Raptor
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Posted: 8/2/2022 12:43:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have me curious because I would have guess that a 458 Win Mag would have a similar trajectory to a 358 Win. This I found pretty quickly but I bet if you really compared a variety they'd surprise you https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/129950/358_458_Ballistics_jpg-2473555.JPG Ok, I see what you're saying. And it's a bit surprising. But you are talking about a 400gr bullet being pushed almost as fast as a 200gr bullet. The .458 is going to recoil about twice as much as the 358 Win. So, maybe twice as many good hits with the 358 win as the .458 win mag. I'm not the guy who would know if a .358 Win has enough horsepower to break up a grizzley but I'm thinking it would. Certainly the .458 win mag would. Still kind of surprising to see the similar trajectories. With a 180gr bullet the velocity gets up to 2,700fps which should give it some more range for deer. And maybe elk? I think so. In all honesty I wasn't aware there were so many choices available for a heavy semi-auto. And it seems like lots of them are good choices. I should probably buy one of each. |
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Posted: 8/2/2022 12:44:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Garrett 540-grain Hammerheads @1550 fps will do the trick. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/111848/08B1165B-7630-4A57-858F-EF4938DAEAD3_jpe-2473565.JPG Jesus! 
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Posted: 8/2/2022 12:49:59 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 8/2/2022 2:22:06 AM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 8/2/2022 2:48:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, I see what you're saying. And it's a bit surprising. But you are talking about a 400gr bullet being pushed almost as fast as a 200gr bullet. The .458 is going to recoil about twice as much as the 358 Win. So, maybe twice as many good hits with the 358 win as the .458 win mag. I'm not the guy who would know if a .358 Win has enough horsepower to break up a grizzley but I'm thinking it would. Certainly the .458 win mag would. Still kind of surprising to see the similar trajectories. With a 180gr bullet the velocity gets up to 2,700fps which should give it some more range for deer. And maybe elk? I think so. In all honesty I wasn't aware there were so many choices available for a heavy semi-auto. And it seems like lots of them are good choices. I should probably buy one of each. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You have me curious because I would have guess that a 458 Win Mag would have a similar trajectory to a 358 Win. This I found pretty quickly but I bet if you really compared a variety they'd surprise you https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/129950/358_458_Ballistics_jpg-2473555.JPG Ok, I see what you're saying. And it's a bit surprising. But you are talking about a 400gr bullet being pushed almost as fast as a 200gr bullet. The .458 is going to recoil about twice as much as the 358 Win. So, maybe twice as many good hits with the 358 win as the .458 win mag. I'm not the guy who would know if a .358 Win has enough horsepower to break up a grizzley but I'm thinking it would. Certainly the .458 win mag would. Still kind of surprising to see the similar trajectories. With a 180gr bullet the velocity gets up to 2,700fps which should give it some more range for deer. And maybe elk? I think so. In all honesty I wasn't aware there were so many choices available for a heavy semi-auto. And it seems like lots of them are good choices. I should probably buy one of each. Yeah that was just a 10 minute search. 358 is hard to find stuff on because it’s pretty dead. They are both handload required for me. That’s the cool thing about reloading is that the 458 doesn’t have to have a ton of recoil. That being said the gun matters a lot on recoil too and the BAR really tames it. As for recoil and shot time i think people way overthink that stuff. The key is maki by the first hit and then a follow up. Much past that becomes fiction as you aren’t going to have that much time. Either way the people that basically no restrictions on what they carry still choose bolt guns most of the time. Hard to beat. |
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Posted: 8/2/2022 2:56:30 PM EDT
[#14]
If you're a Cree Woman named Bella Twin, you only need a single-shot .22 to bring down a world record Grizzly.
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Posted: 8/2/2022 3:01:21 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 8/2/2022 5:47:38 PM EDT
[#16]
I should have phrased the original question differently. I should have made it something like "What semi-auto caliber do you feel is the minimal "good enough" cartridge to stop a brown bear that has decided to kill you." But the hard part about that is that people who have no actual experience with it will have very different answers than experienced people. And people who have had the ever loving shit scared out of them by a brown bear will also have a different answer. People who have survived in africa will often say "The largest caliber I can shoot well." And dedicated "stopping rifles" are not the same as client rifles or carry around rifles.
Already tons of great answers though. My totally unexperienced opinion is that it should be something in the .308 class, but with a bit more mass for smashing stuff. |
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Posted: 8/2/2022 5:49:43 PM EDT
[#17]
M1 garand with a scout scope and a adjustable gas plug.
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Posted: 8/2/2022 7:51:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I should have phrased the original question differently. I should have made it something like "What semi-auto caliber do you feel is the minimal "good enough" cartridge to stop a brown bear that has decided to kill you." But the hard part about that is that people who have no actual experience with it will have very different answers than experienced people. And people who have had the ever loving shit scared out of them by a brown bear will also have a different answer. People who have survived in africa will often say "The largest caliber I can shoot well." And dedicated "stopping rifles" are not the same as client rifles or carry around rifles. Already tons of great answers though. My totally unexperienced opinion is that it should be something in the .308 class, but with a bit more mass for smashing stuff. Bullet construction is pretty important here. You want penetration. It doesn’t have to be from nose to nuts, nut more is better. |
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Posted: 8/2/2022 8:56:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I should have phrased the original question differently. I should have made it something like "What semi-auto caliber do you feel is the minimal "good enough" cartridge to stop a brown bear that has decided to kill you." But the hard part about that is that people who have no actual experience with it will have very different answers than experienced people. And people who have had the ever loving shit scared out of them by a brown bear will also have a different answer. People who have survived in africa will often say "The largest caliber I can shoot well." And dedicated "stopping rifles" are not the same as client rifles or carry around rifles. Already tons of great answers though. My totally unexperienced opinion is that it should be something in the .308 class, but with a bit more mass for smashing stuff. From a realistic/practical perspective, 12ga Brenneke Black Magic Magnums. I'd go with my Benelli M4. If I'm trying to stop a close range charge, I want something that can fire fast followup shots with no chance of short stroking the reload (which even experienced pump action users have encountered. Having a pissed off 900lb bear covering the ground between you in ~2.5 seconds, increases the chance of shit happening). |
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Posted: 8/2/2022 10:07:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I should have phrased the original question differently. I should have made it something like "What semi-auto caliber do you feel is the minimal "good enough" cartridge to stop a brown bear that has decided to kill you." But the hard part about that is that people who have no actual experience with it will have very different answers than experienced people. And people who have had the ever loving shit scared out of them by a brown bear will also have a different answer. People who have survived in africa will often say "The largest caliber I can shoot well." And dedicated "stopping rifles" are not the same as client rifles or carry around rifles. Already tons of great answers though. My totally unexperienced opinion is that it should be something in the .308 class, but with a bit more mass for smashing stuff. So my question in reply would be why do almost none of the people that deal with dangerous game come to the same conclusion? I'd probably feel fine with my AR10 loaded with good bullets but that probably has to do more with knowing how rare bear attacks are than the capability of the 308. Then you added the longer shots on lighter game criteria which makes the 308 class rounds really pushing it in my opinion. I'd say the standard magnum cartridges are a much better place to start. I'm back to a BAR or R1 in 338 Win Mag if you really have to have a semi. |
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Posted: 8/2/2022 11:13:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Browning BAR in .338 WM. Probably as close to available, affordable, portable, and effective as you can get. |
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Posted: 8/2/2022 11:22:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know at least one FN-FAL type has been built in 358 Winchester.... with pics to prove that it works on Alaska bears. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm not going bear hunting, I'm just messing around. But here is parameter of my question. Start with the calibers that are perfectly fine for brown bears. But available in a semi-auto rifle. And of the available semi-auto calibers which one could also be pressed into service for longer shots on lighter game. Same caliber, longer range bullet, as accurate as possible. If there is a 375 H&H in semi auto then that is probably the one, but I strongly doubt there is one available. And the rifle should be reasonably reliable for obvious reasons. I don't even know if such a rifle is available. Extra points for detachable box magazine. I know at least one FN-FAL type has been built in 358 Winchester.... with pics to prove that it works on Alaska bears. That’s mine. I built it years back with an ER Shaw barrel. Killed a brownie with it. Not a big one. |
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Posted: 8/2/2022 11:26:43 PM EDT
[#23]
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